Bah!!!!

[tls5669]

Argh I hate forest battles. Cant even see the army to deploy. So there I am in my Carthaginian campaign, in a long drawn out war with the Aedui, forest battles none the less. Outnumbering them in most battles and getting my ass handed to me. I dont even think Im gonna mess with the Sweboz in my quest for world domination.

Any advice for fighting in the forest? Ive lost 1 high ranking FM and 3 high ranking generals, the battles are intense but I hate the hell out of them when you cant see shit. I guess the "bonus for fighting in forest" means a lot. Maybe I should just sue for peace and concentrate on somewhere else.

[Foot]

Hint: Don't fight in them.There was a reason the Roman Empire had a dreadful time in Germania. A good strategist will ensure that he doesn't need to fight his battles any where near those damned forests, because the cost of such a battle is so high. Take a different route, or use a forward force of light infantry to cause them to attack, then retreat that force back to the main one. Usually the AI will follow and you will be fighting on an open battlefield.

Remember to use right-click on the strat map to get an idea of the terrain you would be fighting in.

Foot

[DaciaJC]

You did, of course, get rid of the giant trees (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=112360)... yes?

[Valion]

I share your pain., I curse all the trees!!! GAH!! i even had to auto-resolve one of my battles against the Aedui coz i couldnt see shit xD

[A Very Super Market]

I share your pain., I curse all the trees!!! GAH!! i even had to auto-resolve one of my battles against the Aedui coz i couldnt see shit xD


O:

Even bonsais???

Trees are useful for Celts, and the Sweboz especially. The only way to keep your men from being cut to ribbons by missiles.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Remember to use right-click on the strat map to get an idea of the terrain you would be fighting in.

OMG why didn't I think of this before...?

Still, had a heroic victory in a forest battle yesterday. Very tall trees, but all you need is to pause often and be patient.

[John the Mad]

Thats the major reason i hate them.They are a micro-management nightmare from hell.If you have anywhere near two full armies,meet in a giant forest,then you would probably be better off repeatedly slamming your hand in the car door..because that is going to be much more enjoyable.

Not to mention that if you win,and don't know any better,if you continue the battle then you are going to spend the next 20 minutes hunting down all the onsies and twosies of the fleeing enemy that are stuck on the trees all over the woods.

[satalexton]

ahh yes, and if they're not 'routing', you'll automatically lose the battle anyways, thanks to the time limit.

[chenkai11]

https://img182.imageshack.us/img182/236/forestj.jpg (https://img182.imageshack.us/i/forestj.jpg/)https://img182.imageshack.us/img182/forestj.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img182/forestj.jpg/1/)

forest like this?

[Cute Wolf]

Train massive missile army, with some Nietos as cover. just let them sit and let the Keltoi attacks..... and forest battles become easier...

[Ibn-Khaldun]

In forests missiles can't help you mush.

I actually like battles in forests. Perhaps it's the way I fight. I'm a passive attacker. I organize my lines and then use couple of units to lure the enemy to my lines. Why should I do all that marching when they can do it as well? I think this tactic is really good in forests. You can surprise the enemy and get an easy victory.

[Hax]

Even bonsais???

Just as a side-note, there is no plural in Japanese; one bonsai, two bonsai. It stays the same. Goes for every word.

[satalexton]

kimi mo nipponjin dearimasu ka?

[Hax]

Nani wa "dearimasuka" desu ka, satalexton-san?

[/Bean\]

Why has every conversation you two have got to turn into a foreign languages discussion? :clown:

Anyway, in large forest battles (where the entire map in covered in them) I set my army up then leave some of the units on AI control when I move my attention away from them (because as I move down the line I can't still watch the rest of the battle). In other words, I only personally control the area I can see right at that moment.

I don't really like battles like that, and really despise battles like the chenkai's pic, but I looooove the battles with the road running through the middle of tall, superthick forests. I love setting my army up as if it were marching in column formation along the road, then act as if the enemy had made a large ambush on my forces. Really fun to roleplay and stuff, and makes battles a bit varied and possible to lose from time to time. I turn off my radar in battles containing woods, to show the real lack of visibility. So when I play 'ambush' battles, my units at the end of the line could be being slaughtered before I notice. It just makes it interesting to know you may not win.

[bobbin]

I don't mind fighting in forests except those ridiculous giant redwood ones which are completely unrealistic and seem to be a leftover from vannila RTW, seriously people should get the "Getting rid of the giant trees" mod it solves the problem perfectly.

[Andy1984]

Fighting Sweboz in a heavily forested area:

1. Train sufficient missile units. For Roman players: accensi, laesotae, sotaroas and scythian foot/horse archers are an excellent choice.
2. Position yourself somewhere in a forest close to (or in the lands of) the Sweboz.
3. Build a fortress at the end of your turn.
4. When you are besieged, sally and start to skirmish with Sweboz. They're truly great at it. Retreat your missiles behind your main line once they charge you. You'll notice the charging units will halt and turn back. You can now order your retreating missile units to stop and fire, thus butchering these retreating attackers by missile fire. Don't worry, once they decided to turn back, they'll try to reach their main line first, before launching a second charge at your missiles. That is: should they survive...


If you don't have the funds or the troops to organise this kind of missions:
1. Train some decent archers or slingers. Keep them somewhere near your borders. Scythian local units work perfect. I prefer some four units of scythian foot archers and a unit of scythian horse archers. You can add other (velites, accensi, hastati,...) units if you like to.
2. Search and destroy minor (and not so minor) Sweboz armies.
3. Enjoy Sweboz forces getting merciless slaughtered. Scythian foot archers should kill some 200 men/unit for each engagement. Retreat in the unlikely event you find yourself out of ammo.
4. Continue your 'border patrol'.

[Hooahguy]

just going to pop in for a bit of my advice. as the getai you fight in forests a lot.
get a lot of mobile infantry that can hide very well. dont bother with phalanx units they are worthless.
have them separated on opposite sides of the battlefield. make sure they are hidden.
make sure all but one unit (a fast one preferably) are hidden. lure the enemy army in between the two hidden forces and spring the trap. the battle becomes a mess but if you pause often and look around at whats happening youll have no problem.

[Andy1984]

I don't mind fighting in forests except those ridiculous giant redwood ones which are completely unrealistic and seem to be a leftover from vannila RTW, seriously people should get the "Getting rid of the giant trees" mod it solves the problem perfectly.
Giant trees are obviously unrealistic. But since there is no way to represent thicker forests (either by more trees on the same space or by other vegetation), I keep them to minimize vision. I'm always scared if I'm at the end of my turn and not all my armies are somewhere in a fortress or in a city. I think if you get yourself in such a miserable situation that clearly underlines the complete lack of information or logistical support you and your captain have, you deserve to have your army wiped out by the Sweboz every once in a while.

[dake]

I love forrest battles...

[chenkai11]

https://img107.imageshack.us/img107/2631/forestbattle.jpg (https://img107.imageshack.us/i/forestbattle.jpg/)https://img107.imageshack.us/img107/forestbattle.jpg/1/w1023.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img107/forestbattle.jpg/1/)


Klerouchoi Phalangitai: We hate forest!!! We can't even hold our long pikes.

Armenian Bodyguards: Haha, slaughter them boys.

Armenian General: I am not enjoying it. They are not the hastati.

:clown:

[Kromulan]

Forest battles are one of the biggest "issues" I have with this game. Here I am, cruising along and I meet a Greek/Roman army. . . I attack them, and the battlescreen loads up a. . . FOREST? No Greco-Roman commander would deploy his army in a bloody forest! I've fought against successor states in forests. The only battle a pike/cavalry army would ever fight in a forest is one in which they were being ambushed. Same with the Romans. The command and control problems presented by fighting in forested areas would preclude any "large" battles being fought there. No classical-age commander would willingly fight a battle where he could not possibly know what the bulk of his army was doing.

Forests determined the size and shape of many classical battlefields. If they thought an advantage could be gained, commanders would align their army such that the forest guarded one (or both) of their flanks.

[Skullheadhq]

Forest battles are one of the biggest "issues" I have with this game. Here I am, cruising along and I meet a Greek/Roman army. . . I attack them, and the battlescreen loads up a. . . FOREST? No Greco-Roman commander would deploy his army in a bloody forest! I've fought against successor states in forests. The only battle a pike/cavalry army would ever fight in a forest is one in which they were being ambushed. Same with the Romans. The command and control problems presented by fighting in forested areas would preclude any "large" battles being fought there. No classical-age commander would willingly fight a battle where he could not possibly know what the bulk of his army was doing.

Forests determined the size and shape of many classical battlefields. If they thought an advantage could be gained, commanders would align their army such that the forest guarded one (or both) of their flanks.

Why not make a "no-forest-battle-minimod", that'll fix some QQ around here.

[/Bean\]

Well, if anyone could be bothered to edit the map and reduce the amount of forests that would be an interesting idea. I don't like the idea of no forests in all the ancient world; that would be stupid for obvious reasons. But since we can't actually choose our battlefields as much as we'd like, we can simulate the idea that commanders would rarely choose to fight in forests, and so place fewer on the battlemap. They'd still 'be there', just we wouldn't see them in times when they are most annoying.

[Cambyses]

Try playing as the Luso's (they get the biggest forest bonuses IIRC). Soon you will come to love the trees as your army gets an easy victory every time it catches some poor civilized schmuck inside of one...

when you can surprise the enemy by suddenly emerging on the flank and unleashing a hail of javelins, it becomes very satisfying and you will begin to actively look for trees to be on the battlemap. If you only ever play as one faction you are IMO really missing out on a lot of the EB gaming experience.

[bobbin]

I love the Luso's so much! they have the best unit roster in the game the only drawback being that it is really hard to use it outside of Iberia, and i have to agree forests are your friends if you are the Luso's, or any other "barbarian" faction for that matter.

[Macilrille]

I just trained a week of forest figthing in a Danish summer beech wood at Moesgaard before we did the major battles in the weekend. It is hellish IRL as well for a commander. He cannot see his subunits or the enemy more than a few meters away and has to trust to his subordinate leaders and unit initiative.

Experience and Centurions...

[Megas Methuselah]

Try playing as the Luso's (they get the biggest forest bonuses IIRC). Soon you will come to love the trees as your army gets an easy victory every time it catches some poor civilized schmuck inside of one...

when you can surprise the enemy by suddenly emerging on the flank and unleashing a hail of javelins, it becomes very satisfying and you will begin to actively look for trees to be on the battlemap. If you only ever play as one faction you are IMO really missing out on a lot of the EB gaming experience.

It's still difficult guiding your troops in a dense forest, though.

[A Very Super Market]

Oh definitely. You simply can't see them, and it ends up as a pause-fest.

[dake]

Fighting in woods with the romans is great against germans...

[Macilrille]

It's still difficult guiding your troops in a dense forest, though.

As it is in RL, I just did for a week.

[Skullheadhq]

As it is in RL, I just did for a week.

You did what?? :dizzy2::dizzy2:

[Macilrille]

Fought in forest battles, look above. Moesgaard 2009 was great, 400 warriors :-)

[Watchman]

...is it on YouTube yet ? :grin2:

[tls5669]

One thing about ancient warfare I dont get. Personally if it was me and I was a Roman commander, Id burn the forest to the ground, that would flush the barbarian's out. It would also turn the land into flat farmland, and wouldnt have to worry about getting ambushed in the Tuetoburg forest either.....:wink2:

[Watchman]

Most of "transalpine" Europe back then was quite heavily forested, so odds are you'd ended up scorching yourself in the process. Also only dry forests burn worth anything; not a terribly common condition in the immediate vicinity of the North Atlantic coast.

As for farmland, ehhhhh... let's just say that if the local soil was worthwhile for cultivation with period agricultural tools, someone would already be ploughing it.

[Macilrille]

One thing about ancient warfare I dont get. Personally if it was me and I was a Roman commander, Id burn the forest to the ground, that would flush the barbarian's out. It would also turn the land into flat farmland, and wouldnt have to worry about getting ambushed in the Tuetoburg forest either.....:wink2:

You ever spent much time in Western- Central European forests? It is ... moist... not like a jungle, but wet enough that it would take quite a bit of napalm/Greek fire to make a mere patch burn enough that the boughs would disappear. The most recent engagements in such is I think the Ardennes and Hürtgen Forest battles of WWII- or even the Soviets entering Finnish forests (though these are more the northern type of forests), the commanders then relearned the experience that the Romans made; war is difficult in forests.

I have experienced the same on Danish maneuvres and while doing the forest fights at Moesgaard. even 60+ m away it gets difficult to see the subunits. Without radios and reliable maps you really need experienced subunit commanders. NCOs and company commanders in modern warfare, Centurions and Thegns(?) in Roman and Viking.

Watchman, I dunno, there are pics on Facebook, you can try a search on Youtube, I am still recovering, so I have not yet ;-) and many has gone on to Wolin.

Edited to add that northern Germany, Friesland and Denmark was in fact very open and heavily tilled with small villages dotting the countryside every 1½- 3 Km. Each of these had a zone of tilled land around it, then "overdrev" (grazing forest and meadows often the moist areas between the hills where the villages were situated), and in the first half of the EB timeframe (roughly) a few untilled forests in between some of them- mostly on Sjælland. Around BC- AD, Denmark was fully exploited this way.

[Cambyses]

Unfortunately real guerilla warfare is impossible to represent in the TW engine. Although I do wonder if some kind of attrition (human player only) could be added in? Anyway, although maybe unrealistic, fighting in forests is the advantage that "barbarian" factions get instead of an accurate modelling of their guerilla abilities. So if you took the forests out it would unbalance the game.

[Macilrille]

Watchman and other interested, it is there; https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=moesgaard+2009&search_type=&aq=f

[John the Mad]

Most of "transalpine" Europe back then was quite heavily forested, so odds are you'd ended up scorching yourself in the process. Also only dry forests burn worth anything; not a terribly common condition in the immediate vicinity of the North Atlantic coast.

As for farmland, ehhhhh... let's just say that if the local soil was worthwhile for cultivation with period agricultural tools, someone would already be ploughing it.

I'll have to pull out Warfare in the classical era to double check..but wasn't an entire legion wiped out in Gaul by the celts felling trees then destroying the legion piecemeal?

[Macilrille]

I do not think so, but a coalition of German- Gallic tribes did rise up at one point from out of nowhere and destroyed most of one in its winter quarters AFAICR.

[John the Mad]

I do not think so, but a coalition of German- Gallic tribes did rise up at one point from out of nowhere and destroyed most of one in its winter quarters AFAICR.

Like i said i have to find the book but i could swear that it said that the Gauls destroyed a legion,or its equivelant,pre-(or slightly post) Punic wars marching along a single path through a forest by felling trees on them.It created confusion and cut off units thereby allowing them to destroy each part off the column in detail.

Though maybe i'm remembering the chapter wrong.

[Macilrille]

I severely doubt it, I would have to see a primary source.

If nothiong else, consider that a tree is rarely more than 20 M tall, so these many Gauls would have to be within 20 M of the road undetected- in pacified territory (for Romans did not march Single collumn in unpacified territory), and over a road stretch of 0.7- 2.8 Km (a single file Legion would stretch 2.8 Km minimum, 4-column would stretch 0.7 minimum + bagage train).

I may be wrong, but I severely doubt it and would have to see a primary source. And I may doubt even that. Some of our sources tend to pass on what we today would call "urban legends".

[John the Mad]

I didn't say i believed it just that the book said it happened and also gave the name of the legion commander.

I had to go down into the coal cellar to look for the book...do you have any what is in the coal cellar!?

Anyway i found four books,but not the one i want,The Roman Imperial Army of the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D. by Graham Webster,Roman Warfare by Adrian Goldsworth,Mercenaries of the Ancient World by Serge Yalichev,The Making of the Roman army from republic to empire by Lawrence Kepple.

I know i'm not making up what i read..but the coal cellar is dark and scary and i think something tried to bite me.I'll look again tommorow.

[moonburn]

are you talking about the 5th or 7th of cesar that got trapped in belgium and during the retreat got caught in a canyon type of terrain and got butchered '' on the same year that quintos cicero got besieged in is winter quarters and hold on for a month until help arrived to free them ?

i think the 5th was lead by cicero and survived and the 7th was the one destroyed but my memory is weak :help: but that wasn´t a legion it was just an army of 4800 troops plus 1200 bagage auxilian/suport personal

[Ezephkiel]

I've found turning off the restricted camera before and zooming right down for most of the battle to work ok, unless they're the really think forests. Its intense but if you just double click all ur units and press a directional keypad button the camera snaps to them straight away.

[John the Mad]

are you talking about the 5th or 7th of cesar that got trapped in belgium and during the retreat got caught in a canyon type of terrain and got butchered '' on the same year that quintos cicero got besieged in is winter quarters and hold on for a month until help arrived to free them ?

i think the 5th was lead by cicero and survived and the 7th was the one destroyed but my memory is weak :help: but that wasn´t a legion it was just an army of 4800 troops plus 1200 bagage auxilian/suport personal

Maybe.

I don't know i'd have to find the book,which is proving frustratingly elusive,it gives a date and a commanders name.

[moonburn]

just saw someone posting it last night in eb2 forum

but what i know ir the romanticized version made by an australian writter who wrote the "the 1st man of rome" and in the 3rd book you get the story of ceasar during the gaulish wars based on his works on the wars on gaul

[Mikhail Mengsk]

sorry- wrong posting