BI vs Alex EB [Archive]

Maksimus

07-22-2009, 16:34

Hi,

I wont go into this much beside the 3 facts i will point and leave it at that:

1-Alx is the last *exe Developers pushed on the markets as the final AI modifications of the RTW games series (including BI)

2-Many EB features including parts of the script DO NOT WORK under BI.exe (and i just dont have the time to explain about that much, you can check with EB Team - they tried using BI exe but it does not work with EB features that work under vanilla RTW and Alx.exe)

3-To use BI.exe you need fast modifications of txt files, that exceed those of Alx.exe

All that aside I played all 3 exe* for years, and only Alx AI is worth it (based on Alx exe* devs continued to work on other TW game series)

K good luck :)

Ferromancer

07-25-2009, 04:12

1-Alx is the last *exe Developers pushed on the markets as the final AI modifications of the RTW games series (including BI)

Alx does have a better battle AI. However, it does not implement naval AI very well. Moreover, a lot of features implemented in BI were left out of Alx. Newer doesn't always mean better.

Hi,
2-Many EB features including parts of the script DO NOT WORK under BI.exe (and i just dont have the time to explain about that much, you can check with EB Team - they tried using BI exe but it does not work with EB features that work under vanilla RTW and Alx.exe)

I don't buy this. I have yet to notice any borked attributes or events in BI, and whatever gameplay issues that have been reported I've been able to resolve easily--usually an oversight on my part, not something wrong with BI. From what I recall, it was alex that had more problems than BI--for instance it took a while to fix the issue with Generals never dying of old age.

3-To use BI.exe you need fast modifications of txt files, that exceed those of Alx.exe

I'm willing to bet my installer for BI is smaller than the installer for Alx. It's only 1.5 megs.

vartan

07-25-2009, 06:51

I'm willing to bet my installer for BI is smaller than the installer for Alx. It's only 1.5 megs.

The zip file that allows EB to run on Alex engine is I think smaller than that. The only truly large file is the installer for the EAEM mod (a sub-mod that changes alot of things, like adding units and skins and changing many things that Maksimus would know the details of).

Never tried BI engine for EB though. If naval is a real bonus, I'd gladly try it out. Also, more importantly for me, is shield wall implemented? and swimming across rivers?

Smeel

07-25-2009, 12:56

Alx does have a better battle AI. However, it does not implement naval AI very well. Moreover, a lot of features implemented in BI were left out of Alx. Newer doesn't always mean better.

Seriously, the only new feature in BI that works as intended is swimming. The shieldwall is so broken it's not even funny, and schiltrom is just unnecessary. In this instance, newer really does means better.

Ferromancer

07-25-2009, 16:12

Seriously, the only new feature in BI that works as intended is swimming. The shieldwall is so broken it's not even funny, and schiltrom is just unnecessary. In this instance, newer really does means better.

I think you have it switched around. Schiltrom is broken (AI doesn't use it properly) and shieldwall works fine--though the EB team implements it using unit spacing in RTW.

Ferromancer

07-25-2009, 16:20

The zip file that allows EB to run on Alex engine is I think smaller than that. The only truly large file is the installer for the EAEM mod (a sub-mod that changes alot of things, like adding units and skins and changing many things that Maksimus would know the details of).

Never tried BI engine for EB though. If naval is a real bonus, I'd gladly try it out. Also, more importantly for me, is shield wall implemented? and swimming across rivers?

I just clicked on the download link for ALX without mods, and it's 2.2 megs. Not that much bigger, but still bigger, and my installer includes a few more fixes and mods--and should be compatible with other mods installed in EB for RTW. The FULL ALX mod is a whopping 190.79 MB. That's two orders of magnitude larger.

Naval is better, retrains stacks, night battles, shield wall, and swimming. And there are a number of other optional bonus features I've incorporated from other mods along the way.

vartan

07-26-2009, 17:48

I just clicked on the download link for ALX without mods, and it's 2.2 megs. Not that much bigger, but still bigger, and my installer includes a few more fixes and mods--and should be compatible with other mods installed in EB for RTW. The FULL ALX mod is a whopping 190.79 MB. That's two orders of magnitude larger.

Naval is better, retrains stacks, night battles, shield wall, and swimming. And there are a number of other optional bonus features I've incorporated from other mods along the way.

Like I said, the large EAEM mod is not only an engine-conversion mod but a mod in an of itself. It changes many things. Plus, Alex also plays at night and retrains stacks. Simply that the naval attacks and shield walls aren't as prevalent. No big deal I suppose; it's up to users to decide which they like better. I don't see a clear-cut winner here.

Good job at both Ferro and Maksimus for their work. Well appreciated. :2thumbsup:

king of thracia

07-26-2009, 17:56

BI has been more stable for me. Still crashes but I don't have to worry about hurting its feelings.

Maksimus

07-26-2009, 21:18

@Ferromancer

As I said, BI.exe do not work with EB script, and various txt files, just this fact alone shows you have no idea what is *exe part of the game and what is AI. EB script and various txt* files work with RTW and ALX engine but not with BI one, thats why EB team never used BI.exe as they did planed to year ago.

More to this matter, BI.exe AI has no proven screen shots of AI massing up 16+ Units in a ship to attack the faction oversea that is in war with the host faction. We have evidence of that on screen shots, while there are none whatsoever of BI.exe AI doing anything of that kind ever in history of BI.exe engine on any TW community forum on the net.

Regardless to say that retrain and AI massing up is Officially better, you can check that on Creative Assembly and SEGA sites when you read about Alexander etc etc.

And I played most mods both on BI.exe and Alx.exe

Characters never dieing of old age does not exist anymore, that was EB issue due to 1 ''Immortal'' Trait Alex had due to Alexander campaign single mod. It has been seen and fixed 2 years ago by adding 1 trait to Eb trait's.

Anyway, its your pick what to use, good luck

Maks

Ludens

07-27-2009, 02:13

Ferromancer

07-27-2009, 03:07

As I said, BI.exe do not work with EB script, and various txt files, just this fact alone shows you have no idea what is *exe part of the game and what is AI. EB script and various txt* files work with RTW and ALX engine but not with BI one, thats why EB team never used BI.exe as they did planed to year ago.

Uh... I've been playing with BI for well over a year, and all the scripts work fine. AI's get money, 4 turns a year, events when approaching cities, gallic factions appearing in Galatia and the Balkans, Olympic game events, etc. etc. etc. I would like you to link to a thread that demonstrates what goes wrong exactly.

More to this matter, BI.exe AI has no proven screen shots of AI massing up 16+ Units in a ship to attack the faction oversea that is in war with the host faction. We have evidence of that on screen shots, while there are none whatsoever of BI.exe AI doing anything of that kind ever in history of BI.exe engine on any TW community forum on the net.

Play as Romans. You'll find that Carthage invades Sicily, Sardinia, and Rome. I don't know where you're getting your info. There are multiple threads describing how BI invades:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/search.php?searchid=224391
Including screenshots.

Characters never dieing of old age does not exist anymore, that was EB issue due to 1 ''Immortal'' Trait Alex had due to Alexander campaign single mod. It has been seen and fixed 2 years ago by adding 1 trait to Eb trait's.

I'm aware that issue was fixed. I was just bringing up the fact that ALX can screw up EB too. I'm not aware of any issues in BI that were as nasty as that one.

Anyway, its your pick what to use, good luck

Well it would help if you didn't just make stuff up either.

vartan

07-27-2009, 06:28

None of my business but what a nice reply. I'm just wondering if there's any other reason to get BI besides so called AI improvements, CTD reduction, naval improvements, and shield-wall etc.

Maksimus

07-28-2009, 03:20

@Ferro

Look, you cant point or prove I made up stuff with anything but your bad mouth and rude approach in these replies.

About things that BI cant handle compared to RTW and ALX - ask Foot coz i droped BI 2 years ago when I had issues with it and i know he tested it and spoke on forums here it can not handle EB script well at all.

There is nothing on that link you posted, more to it there is none of the screen shots or evidence on TWC or here that BI engine masses up units in ships and sale's with them doing anything but Standing and moving around until the small few units army gets wiped out.

Alxeb has screens of Hellas doing 14+ Units form Rhodos and AsiaMinor to Greek Mainland to defend Sparta under siege or attack Corinth and Pella.

There is general consensus among RTW based Mod creators, Including Forth Age, XGM, RS end so on, that Alx.exe is more stable, faster, has way better battle AI (which btw is only 1 ting that makes 90% of game fun) advanced and has less CTD's and retraining features that AI uses on massive scale.

I have talked to creators of alot of these best advanced mods in the World that deal with RTW based engines.

They all pmed me 1 to ask how to implement Alx.exe and replied back they are very happy. Tho some didnt use it coz many players dont have Alexander cd yet at all. Many passed from BI to Alx.

Mod I made was in UK Gamer magazine as Fourth Age Creator told me (he is editor there) as most advanced EB AI experience complete mod. Too bad I never saw that edition I am not from UK.

Ferromancer

07-28-2009, 04:07

Look, you cant point or prove I made up stuff with anything but your bad mouth and rude approach in these replies.

You haven't offered any definitive proof either, and I think I've been fairly cool-headed in our discussion, considering the level of unsubstantiated FUD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt) you've been leveling towards BI. Nonetheless, I'll concede that ALX has better battle AI. I haven't been convinced on any other advantages, plus ALX has fewer unit special abilities. As far as stability, I haven't had a CTD in a over a year. The only CTD I've heard of is when people hit "ok" too quickly after playing on a battle map in EB, instead of waiting a few seconds. I'm fairly certain that issue is present in RTW and possibly ALX.

About things that BI cant handle compared to RTW and ALX - ask Foot coz i droped BI 2 years ago when I had issues with it and i know he tested it and spoke on forums here it can not handle EB script well at all.

You keep bringing this up, but I would like to link so I can read these threads for myself. Maybe I can address those concerns? Last I heard about the team not supporting BI or ALX officially was because of lower market penetration compared to RTW, and more work on their part--they are focusing their efforts on EB2 now.

Mod I made was in UK Gamer magazine as Fourth Age Creator told me (he is editor there) as most advanced EB AI experience complete mod. Too bad I never saw that edition I am not from UK.

Congratulations on your accomplishment.

bigmilt16

07-28-2009, 04:45

I have been playing BI.exe for a long long time before switching to Alex.exe about a year ago. I can personally attest to the naval invasions. I recommend that you play as Rome if you want proof of that, because Carthage (and even Macedon and KH) will regularly invade your territories. Heck, I had to quit a few Roman campaigns because I couldn't stop the flow of Carthaginian ships invading Corsica.

@Ferro

Look, you cant point or prove I made up stuff with anything but your bad mouth and rude approach in these replies.

About things that BI cant handle compared to RTW and ALX - ask Foot coz i droped BI 2 years ago when I had issues with it and i know he tested it and spoke on forums here it can not handle EB script well at all.

There is nothing on that link you posted, more to it there is none of the screen shots or evidence on TWC or here that BI engine masses up units in ships and sale's with them doing anything but Standing and moving around until the small few units army gets wiped out.

Alxeb has screens of Hellas doing 14+ Units form Rhodos and AsiaMinor to Greek Mainland to defend Sparta under siege or attack Corinth and Pella.

There is general consensus among RTW based Mod creators, Including Forth Age, XGM, RS end so on, that Alx.exe is more stable, faster, has way better battle AI (which btw is only 1 ting that makes 90% of game fun) advanced and has less CTD's and retraining features that AI uses on massive scale.

I have talked to creators of alot of these best advanced mods in the World that deal with RTW based engines.

They all pmed me 1 to ask how to implement Alx.exe and replied back they are very happy. Tho some didnt use it coz many players dont have Alexander cd yet at all. Many passed from BI to Alx.

Mod I made was in UK Gamer magazine as Fourth Age Creator told me (he is editor there) as most advanced EB AI experience complete mod. Too bad I never saw that edition I am not from UK.

godsakes

07-28-2009, 09:44

sorry i've started a bit of a war - i'm sure both mods improve on EB, would it be fair to sumarise that BI offers more of a strategic challenge (due to more naval invasions) and Alex more tactical challenge due to better battle AI?

Ludens

07-28-2009, 12:25

About things that BI cant handle compared to RTW and ALX - ask Foot coz i droped BI 2 years ago when I had issues with it and i know he tested it and spoke on forums here it can not handle EB script well at all.

Could you please link to this post? I am very curious since I have used EB for BI and never noticed it. I also sure that the team never intended to make EB for BI.

Ferromancer

07-29-2009, 02:01

Does ALX support religion and hording?

Maksimus

07-29-2009, 02:03

Hi, late here now

I will pm foot about it, I know for sure thats why Team droped BI.exe that was considered. That thread I read and checked in script year ago.

But about the naval proof, its on the Thread, I never saw BI ever massing up 15+ units in ship and sale away to siege or attack or take a city.

Anyway, I made EAEM for BI.exe too but It didnt work good AI didnt expand well so I droped it :book:

fleaza

08-05-2009, 12:22

the problem with BI is that shield wall is so incredibly strong its not funny. i had 2 units of sacred band defeat 2000 units on a bridge with shield wall on. its better to reduce unit spacing and radius instead of using shield wall. hording isnt really implemented in it either the last time i played. religion is just annoying. i hate bothering with the religion crap, it makes me exterminate so many more cities due to PO.

imho alx EB is better. ive played vanilla, bi and alx mods. giving up a few abilities was worth the improvement in AI. i love the retraining feature. i used to hate seeing units of around 42 hoplites that i see all the time (160 men at full str).

Ferromancer

08-07-2009, 02:31

miotas

08-08-2009, 11:03

I have been playing with bi.exe for a few months and I like it. Night battles, swimming, retraining, shield wall and naval invasions have made the game just that much more fun, and I haven't had a ctd since swapping over, I don't have alex so I've obviously never tried it.

But about the naval proof, its on the Thread, I never saw BI ever massing up 15+ units in ship and sale away to siege or attack or take a city.

What usually happens is the AI will send over 5-10 units and then they suck up all the mercs in the area. The first time this happened to me I was playing as rome and carthage sent over a FM, an elephant, half a dozen heavies and a few skirmishers, then hired all the mercs in sicily and attacked. I suddenly had a full stack of carthies in sicily and all my armies were in the north fighting the gauls. Believe you me, they were a hectic few years. :yes:

the problem with BI is that shield wall is so incredibly strong its not funny. i had 2 units of sacred band defeat 2000 units on a bridge with shield wall on. its better to reduce unit spacing and radius instead of using shield wall.

I have given myself a house rule that I may only use the shield wall when defending a seige since it is so strong, I implemented this house rule the day I broke a unit of pezhetairoi from the front with a unit of pedites only losing half a dozen men. :smash:

Apraxiteles

08-11-2009, 21:53

About things that BI cant handle compared to RTW and ALX - ask Foot coz i droped BI 2 years ago when I had issues with it and i know he tested it and spoke on forums here it can not handle EB script well at all.

I find it very interesting that you are making such a strong argument about this, Mr. Maksimus, especially the last time this came up, back in March of this year, you said this:

I palyed on BI very shortly so I can not comment it (do it has features RTW and ALX do not : LIke S_wall, swiming... +.. but ALX.exe has Legion names too, Night battles.. etc)

In any case, BI and ALX are far better than RTW.exe

And this:

I havent been playing BI much so I cant comment really - I just think ALX.exe is faster than BI.exe

In this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=100745

You didn't mention anything about script issues then. Why not? If you indeed dropped BI two years ago, for the reasons you suggest, why couldn't you comment on it this spring? You claimed that you didn't play BI long enough to judge it. By then, you were already espousing ALEX.exe, so these experiences of yours couldn't have happened after you posted in that thread. Would you please care to explain this discrepancy?

In the meantime, I'll continue to scour the old threads for any clues about this mythical script issue. The only script issues anyone has had have been Trivial Script issues, which look like they were fairly simply resolved, by an EB Team programmer no less. So far, nobody has mentioned any issues with the Background Script, or the Campaign Script.

EDIT:

On second thought, I don't believe that will be necessary. In July of last year, the departed Maion made a thread about implementing various BI features, to which Foot replied:

I'd be very happy to help with modding the stuff, so if you need any help you can give me a call. Or something.

Here is the thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=104236

Foot mentions nothing about any problems with BI, and is in fact, eager to help. If he and the modding team had abandoned BI.exe because of an issue as drastic as the script not working, they would have mentioned something about it in the dozens of threads about BI.exe that I've just read. Instead, they appear to be openly trying to help people use it.

Maybe ALEX.exe is better, I haven't used it, so I don't know. But that is besides the point right now. Unless Mr. Maksimus can explain all of this, I must be forced to assume that he is a shameless liar. There is a public record. This is an online forum for Pete's sake! I can find every single thing ever said on this forum on the subject, if I have to, but I think I have made my point.

Maksimus

08-11-2009, 22:52

Hi,

Playing on 'BI very shortly' for me is relative, and I am not older man so Mr. titles are not needed ty.

I assume people like you cant get over the fact that BI.exe is actually not even close to Alx.exe features and AI wise in use and preformance. Or maybe you want me to write full report on every thread why I have typed in what have? Sorry, thats not going to happen.

Foot and EB team have been eager to use BI.exe as it is better than RTW, but for script and I think EDB issues (is why I didnt want to use it) they have droped it. I dont even remember what where exact issues as I droped for good and 2 years ago as definite for moderation, not just playing as I had fun with BI vanilla.

Some of this ''discrepancy'' as someone may call it is nothing more but one way idea of what you want to belive in. I played all *exe's since they came out. I have made other mods too for all exe's* before I even had access to internet.

And who said ''drastic as the script not working'' issue's? - you lie right here for whatever shameless reason I dont know.
I only mentioned ''EB features including parts of the script DO NOT WORK under BI.exe''. Which is true to my knowledge and I dont even have to explain that as I dont even want to bother with that anymore.

Anyone can try to prove me wrong, make a mod and try to implement advanced features (if they even know what that is) - and then give the community here report and working mod saying it was a success and had no issues.

@Apraxiteles - kid.. guy.. dude.. Mr. whatever, better grow over this and before trying to attach some ''shameless liar'' ticket you should know - Alex.exe is incomparably better than RTW and BI, and players using ALX have much better gaming experience, and some can say they can be instructors for players that play anything less than Alx.exe in how to play RTW based games and modificatinos. That is the whole truth, with no intention to insult anyone.

Maks

Apraxiteles

08-11-2009, 23:12

EDIT: Oh, never mind.

Hax

08-12-2009, 01:32

There are no script problems with BI.exe.

None, never were, never will be. I don't know where you got that information, but it's just not true.

@Apraxiteles - kid.. guy.. dude.. Mr. whatever, better grow over this and before trying to attach some ''shameless liar'' ticket you should know - Alex.exe is incomparably better than RTW and BI, and players using ALX have much better gaming experience

I like BI.exe. I tried ALX, but it didn't feel the same at all. Your comments are simply arrogant and pushing those that don't play ALX.exe in a corner.

I only mentioned ''EB features including parts of the script DO NOT WORK under BI.exe''. Which is true to my knowledge and I dont even have to explain that

..uh, yes you should explain this. The only thing that doesn't work are victory movies, as far as I know. But, just for the sake of argument, I will take a look at the EBBS:

;1: Puppet ruler script
;2: Reforms
; 2a: Celtic Reforms
; 2b: Saka Reforms
; 2c: Roman Reforms
; 2d: Seleukid Cataphract Reforms
; 2e: Pan-Caucasus Empire Reform - Hayasdan
; 2f: Persia Reform - Hayasdan
; 2g: Carthage Reform
; 2h: Sweboz Reform
;3: Government Building Management
;4: Population Replenishment
;5: Money Assistance
; 5a: Difficult Start Help
; 5b: City Income Bonus
; 5c: Building Upkeep (disabled until decent balancing is done)
;6: Victory Conditions
; 6a: Flash VCs Script
; 6b: Victory Conditions Triggers
;7: Allied Cities Script
; 7a: Qarthadastim vs. Ptolemaioi (Ammonion)
; 7b: Attacks on Chersonesos (KH)
; 7c: Attacks on Byzantion (Pontos)
; 7d: Halikarnassos (Ptolemaioi)
; 7e: Kallatis (Getai)
; 7f: Qarthadastim vs. Ptolemaioi (Kyrene)
; 7g: Seleukids vs. Ptolemaioi (Kyrene)
; 7h: Nikaia (Pontos)
; 7i: Pantikapaion (KH)
; 7j: KH vs. Pontos (Sinope)
; 7k: Thermon (KH)
; 7l: Trapezous (KH)
; 7m: Qarthadastim vs. Romani (Messana)
;8: Special Events
; 8a: The Chersonesos Event
; 8b: Tomb Of Alexander
; 8c: Baktrian Independence
; 8d: Roman Triumph
; 8e: Seleukid Anabasis
; 8f: Pahlava Shahanshah
; 8g: Sweboz Triumphs
; 8h: Devastation Script
; 8i: Nomad Horse Discount
; 8j: Gauls - Epeiros Alliance
; 8k: Celtiberian Alliance
; 8l: Rhegion (Romani only)
; 8m: Spartan Agoge Messages
; 8n: Xanthippos
; 8o: Yuezhi Invasion
; 8p: Casse Landing
; 8q: Naravas
;9: Central European Defence
;10: Four Turns Per Year Script

Can you say which part of this doesn't work?

No big deal I suppose; it's up to users to decide which they like better. I don't see a clear-cut winner here.

Let's keep it at this. Enjoy whatever you enjoy.

Maksimus

08-12-2009, 09:09

Hello,

What BI.exe fans keep missing is that they always first start 'explaining' how Bi is stable more and has better something etc etc.. and then when they come to a corner by realism they keep trying to put the blame on other's.

Each and every time players that have never used or have just 'tried' Alx.exe and are passionate BI.exe players say how BI is better I thing its just unfair to the community. Then after they keep passing the ball to others that just play better engine.

Then same BI fans all feel very much hurt and arogantly responsive when someone proves and show's how much more AI activity and intelligence on Alx.exe are advanced (source: devs at the least).

And even irregardless to a thing that BI.exe fans are trying to catch up to - the fact that I droped BI coz i had issues in Modding and working with it - BI is still just a fragment of Alx AI in my opinion.

This does not mean that BI players they sux or something, but It sure does not mean they have right to attack most advanced of all 3 *exe's or explain that some features are less advanced. All features in Alx.exe are more advanced - period, devs said it, moder's said it too - I am a moder I know this, prove me wrong with screen shots at the very least.

Oh and I will not spend a minute on searching post here about Bi.exe *txt fails because for me this is a game and that story is long gone in the past.

But sure, play any *exe

Maks