View Full Version : Debate: - do you think prostitution should be legal?
Prussian to the Iron
07-23-2009, 23:32
this is mainly aimed toward people in countries where prostitution is currently illegal (mainly united states). debate.
I think it should be legal. if someone wants to use a paycheck and get a night of enjoyment when they would otherwise be doing nothing, than why is it the governments business? prostitution is a perfectly legitimate way to make money (albeit, almost impossible for guys to do), and hindering it only violates basic human (and legal) rights to work doing whatever they want, so long as it does not harm anyone else.
Pimping, on the other hand, is very horrible. the fact that they try to own and control other human beings is very immoral and should not be allowed.
Rhyfelwyr
07-23-2009, 23:36
They don't need pimps to control them, the vast majority of people who work in the oldest profession are only there because of drug habits which are beyond their control.
Granted, if it was legal if might make it a bit safer for the workers in terms of not getting murdered by psychopaths/whatever, but it would also allow it to become much more widespread.
Prussian to the Iron
07-23-2009, 23:38
i know that they do not need pimps to control them, im just saying i think pimping should be illegal.
and letting it become widespread is a good thing.
Don Corleone
07-23-2009, 23:57
I used ot agree with you when I was younger, Prussian Iron. Victimless crime and all that.
Then as you get older, you come to realize that flesh peddling comes at a steep cost. The pornography industry is perfectly legal here in the US, and it seems like every day brings a new horror story.
AIDS, drugs, suicide, low self esteem.... for every actress that appears on television to say how liberating the experience is and how its her own decision, many, many more come forwrad talking of the horrors they've endured. Sharon Kane, who is still tangentially involved in the industry, is no evangelist or holy roller. But read what she has to say about her former employers.
Something happens to the concept of human dignity when you sell access to vaginas and penii. And that something usually isn't very good.
Of course it should be allowed. It is only disallowed because of religious moral. This is nothing short of muslim women wearing veils. If a human seeks sexual pleasure, he should have every right to do so and it only does a human psychologically and physically good. Unlike things like Cigars, which despite being legal and widespread, are extremely harmful for human health.
Something happens to the concept of human dignity when you sell access to vaginas and penii. And that something usually isn't very good.
That is a religious concept. There is plenty of historical documentation from pre-Christianity, where prostitution was religiously sanctioned, and people viewed the concept of having sex with a sacred prostitutes as somewhat of a blessing of the said god to the man, blessing him for having had sex with the servant of the god. As such, saying that prostituting oneself is against human dignity is far far away from being true.
Don Corleone
07-24-2009, 00:17
That's really funny, Jolt. I bet most modern feminists, such as Susan Faludi, would laugh as heartily as I did at the notion that being opposed to trafficing in human sexuallity is a sure sign of religious thinking. I don't see where a belief in human dignity requires a religious context, but being as wise and all-knowing as you are, if you say it is so, it certainly must be so.
And you made your comment like an accusation. When did having spirtual considerations disqualify one from having a reasoned stance?
You know what I think? I think the people that favor legalizing prositution are those that earn their living through it and those that require it in order to engage in any sort of sexual activity that includes another person.
Prussian to the Iron
07-24-2009, 00:18
Unlike things like Cigars, which despite being legal and widespread, are extremely harmful for human health.
this is exactly the point to get across:
cigarettes are legal everywhere. they kill hundreds of thousands of people every year (if not millions), but prostitution, which is nothing more than paying for pleasure, is illegal.
however, i think that, on that note, prostitution should require a free license, which must be renewed every month, but is rejected if any STD's or other spreadable diseases are detected.
pevergreen
07-24-2009, 00:22
As a man once said on Australian TV (about 10 years ago now)
"If I'm at home, I'm lonely and I want to talk to a woman who's addicted to prozac and lying naked in a bath tub, then I should be allowed to do that."
"And so far you have been."
Was in relation to banning those late night TV ads with the 1800 or 1300 numbers for girls girls girls etc.
It relates to this, but having worked through the construction and opening and then after in a brothel (we did the phone system, from when the building was being done, to after the opening) the conditions of a legal brothel are terrible. The rooms the girls sleep in are smaller than our prison cells and less comfortable. And they have protection, in the form of alarms and cameras etc. On the street, there is nothing.
People would die.
Plus my view is sex paid for is not worth it, not matter how long its been.
It makes no sense for it to be ilegal to sell something that is at the very same time completely legal to give away for free.
Legalize it, regulate it, tax it.... take the pimps out of the game and make it a regular activity.
Street prostitution is illegal here in Australia in all states but most states allow brothels, but there are many restrictions. Seems to make sense to have everything legal and above board, where the girls are in a safe protected environment rather than out wandering the streets where anything could happen to them and anyone could be exposed to them.
I've never been in one myself so I don't know what the interrior conditions are, but there was one in the industrial estate back home that I had to drive past most mornings for work, and it seemed a very professional buisness with plenty of security around the place.
It's something that will happen no matter what restrictions are placed on it, so rather than make the girls into criminals, just put them in a safe place where they are protected, and where society is protected from them. Plus the government gets to tax it.
That's really funny, Jolt. I bet most modern feminists, such as Susan Faludi, would laugh as heartily as I did at the notion that being opposed to trafficing in human sexuallity is a sure sign of religious thinking. I don't see where a belief in human dignity requires a religious context, but being as wise and all-knowing as you are, if you say it is so, it certainly must be so.
Feminists are known to defend many positions I consider stupid. This is one of them. Human dignity requires no religious thinking when it comes from common sense (Right to live, right to physical integrity, right to social integration, etc.), however other things concerning human dignity (Like this one. The fact that, bluntly stated, the act of rubbing a part of our body to another body's part for the sake of pleasure is viewed as something that diminishes or affects human dignity) don't come from common sense.
And you made your comment like an accusation. When did having spirtual considerations disqualify one from having a reasoned stance?
If you interpreted my comment as an accusation, then I apologize as I had no such intention. You are allowed to reason based on spiritual considerations, but what I don't agree is the fact that one is enforcing prohibitions based on the said spiritual considerations.
You know what I think? I think the people that favor legalizing prositution are those that earn their living through it and those that require it in order to engage in any sort of sexual activity that includes another person.
Maybe that's the point of view you get over there in America, but let me tell you as far as myself and the society I know and interact with are concerned, that is blatantly wrong.
Louis VI the Fat
07-24-2009, 02:12
do you think prostitution should be legal?Yes it should be legal. About bloody time those lascivious wenches started paying me for my efforts.
AlexanderSextus
07-24-2009, 02:39
Ahhh, my second favorite topic, aside from Legalization of Cannabis. This is partly due to the fact that i can use pretty much the EXACT same argument, but at the same time there are other reasons to have it be legal.
Legalize it, Tax it, and Regulate it. This is a good idea because, exactly like marijuana, Legalizing it would take it out of the hands of the criminal element and make it much safer.
As far as Prostitution being Degrading to women, i would like to make a distinction here:
There is Human Trafficking:no::thumbsdown:, and then there is Legalized Prostitution.:yes::2thumbsup::beam:
In Human trafficking, Women are treated like cattle. They are often abused and forced into Drug addiction. This is a horrible practice and should be stopped at all costs.
Currently, unless you live in the State of Nevada, USA, or Amsterdam, NL, Human Trafficking is a persons only option to pay for sex. You can contract All types of nasty Diseases. Once a woman is in, she never gets out.
However, if you go to Nevada, the Prostitutes will gladly tell you that they WANT to work at the brothel, and in so many words will say "Degrading? Hell, i filled out an application. I can quit this job ANY time i want to, no questions asked."
The Prostitutes receive health benefits and get FREE Compulsory STD and AIDS tests. There is an almost NIL chance that you will get an STD from a legal prostitute. Not to mention you are required to use condoms at a legal brothel, AFAIK.
Having Prostitution be Illegal is worse than it being legal.
And all Religious arguments against Prostitution are Bogus, because if you believe that Soliciting prostitution is a Sin, and it was legal to do so, you can simply make the choice NOT to do it!
I don't believe Prostitution should be legal without heavy regulation, if it was done. After all, there are many laws and other various things in place. What happens if you catch an STD? Does this give you entitlement to sue the prostitute? What about if you got the STD?
There are many health complications and other complications which prevents prostitution being a legal business. It just cannot be regulation in a fair and correct manner.
AlexanderSextus
07-24-2009, 03:39
I don't believe Prostitution should be legal without heavy regulation, if it was done. After all, there are many laws and other various things in place. What happens if you catch an STD? Does this give you entitlement to sue the prostitute? What about if you got the STD?
There are many health complications and other complications which prevents prostitution being a legal business. It just cannot be regulation in a fair and correct manner.
if it were legal then you absolutely would be entitled to sue the brothel since it would have to be regulation for the brothel to ensure that safe sex be practiced at all times.
Hooahguy
07-24-2009, 03:48
o cmon AS you know sometimes condoms doesnt stop STDs, like if theres a breakage.
AlexanderSextus
07-24-2009, 03:51
o cmon AS you know sometimes condoms doesnt stop STDs, like if theres a breakage.
yeah but see it would also be regulation that if someone tests positive for an STD they should be fired on the spot. so even if the condom breaks you wont get anything.
They would have to get tested damn near every day. at least every other day.
Every 2 weeks would be fine I suppose. Using condoms usually helps to avoid STDs.
HoreTore
07-24-2009, 04:57
Prostitution, ie. selling your body, should be legal. Buying it should be illegal. Punish the buyer, not the seller.
Prostitution is a poverty issue. People prostitute themselves because they're poor(or forced). None of them wants to. The happy hooker myth is just that - a myth.
The "luxury escorts" fall in a different category though. That might not be illegal.
The "luxury escorts" fall in a different category though. That might not be illegal.
Ask Berlusconi.
Here in NSW it is illegal for people to live off the proceeds of prostitution. ie they can only work at a brothel as secondary, part time employment.
Prussian to the Iron
07-24-2009, 05:49
well, if you are a poor woman, what would you rather do:
work in a place with minimum wage?
OR
work for large sums of money, mainly at night, and gain satisfaction most times. not all times, but some.
Concerning STD's: prostitutes should have to get an STD test every 2 weeks, and a consumer should have to take an STD test before purchasing 'services'.
that way, there is no excuse if one party contracts an STD, and frequent buyers or sellers can tell who transmitted it.
Crazed Rabbit
07-24-2009, 06:42
Prostitution, ie. selling your body, should be legal. Buying it should be illegal. Punish the buyer, not the seller.
And that simply means its forced deeper 'underground' because johns aren't going to buy where they can be caught.
So legalize it, because punishing someone in that situation is just cruel. What does making it illegal do? We see cops busting prostitutes, who aren't hurting anyone and are likely bad off themselves.
So Nevada's solution might be the least of several evils.
CR
Beefy187
07-24-2009, 06:47
Thats why you drool at imaginary girls.
With Anime girls and Adult game girls, everyone wins :clown:
As for prostitution, all prostitutes should be managed by the government. I think that settles the pimping problem.
Prostitute here are quite happy with what they are doing, high earning job for those who love sex. Though the illegal ones tends to be a mess.
Dîn-Heru
07-24-2009, 07:10
Prostitution, ie. selling your body, should be legal. Buying it should be illegal. Punish the buyer, not the seller.
Do you have any evidence that this has actually worked in Norway, I seem to recall hearing that visible prostitution disappeared after the law was introduced (in Oslo, in Bergen I believe the police did not direct enough resources towards it), but that it is back now.
And how do you propose that a prostitute can exercise her legal right to sell her/(his) body if her/(his) potential costumers risk trouble with the police if they buy it? (Edit: If we look at it in principle)
I honestly can't see how you can defend this notion without a serious case of doublethink...
(Edit: during the writing of the post, I sort of came to the same conclusion myself, when we are dealing with the real world..)
On the actual topic itself. In principle I am for legalization of prostitution (buying and selling), however that being said I am not sure that it should be legal in reality exactly for the reasons that HoreTore state, that it is most often poor, drugaddicts, and women who are forced into prostitution who sell their body.
Prussian to the Iron
07-24-2009, 07:59
i am pretty sure we all agree that forced prostitution is a bad thing. lets get off the topic: this is more about wiling, individual selling of sex, or willing sale of sex in a brothel or formal organizatin of some sort, with certain requirements in regards to hygiene and policies.
simply put:
There is Human Trafficking:no::thumbsdown:, and then there is Legalized Prostitution.:yes::2thumbsup::beam:
Samurai Waki
07-24-2009, 08:30
I'm mixed in my opinion on this issue. While I do in essence agree with Don, I just don't see the practicality of enforcing it's legality. Its almost on the same page in some ways as the Marijuana debate, if it's regulated I don't see what the problem is.
CountArach
07-24-2009, 08:56
If we make it legal we can regulate it much more tightly to ensure better working conditions and higher health standards for the workers.
Also I find the idea of a Prostitute Union amusing.
HoreTore
07-24-2009, 09:27
work for large sums of money, mainly at night, and gain satisfaction most times. not all times, but some.
1. Prostitutes don't earn "large sums of money". A lot of the money goes to your pimp. What's left is used to buy heroin.
2. Satisfaction...? You seriously believe that street hookers get satisfaction...?
Do you have any evidence that this has actually worked in Norway, I seem to recall hearing that visible prostitution disappeared after the law was introduced (in Oslo, in Bergen I believe the police did not direct enough resources towards it), but that it is back now.
Gawd, start reading Dagbladet, there have been a gahzillion articles on this since January 1st*. Or take a walk around Karl Johan.
The result, as of now, is that there has been an extreme reduction in the number of prostitutes who are trafficking victims. This is because they were aimed at the street market, which is now almost gone. There were 3-400 here last summer, what you heard as "they're back" was when there were some 30 prostitutes around, who left almost as quickly as they came. As for norwegian prostitutes(the drug addicts), they've either quit or moved inside. The area which haven't seen as much reduction, are the eastern european prostitutes who "tour" Norway, moving from hotel to hotel. But honestly, there's not much we can do about them, as fixing poverty in eastern europe is something that, ultimately, the eastern european governments have to do themselves.
So all in all, the law has been a success.
And how do you propose that a prostitute can exercise her legal right to sell her/(his) body if her/(his) potential costumers risk trouble with the police if they buy it? (Edit: If we look at it in principle)
I honestly can't see how you can defend this notion without a serious case of doublethink...
(Edit: during the writing of the post, I sort of came to the same conclusion myself, when we are dealing with the real world..)
There is no "principle" here. There is no "legal right to sell". The law is made the way it is simply because of who we want to punish. We have no need to punish prostitutes, where's the sense in that? The only reason to punish a prostitute, is if we're overly religious, which we are not. But punishing the buyer is with a different reasoning, it is to cut the market for traffickers and pimps. If noone wants to buy, noone can make a profit from selling women.
*for non-norwegians, this is when we banned prostitution.
Crazed Rabbit
07-24-2009, 09:57
Well long term bans in the US haven't stopped prostitutes on the street - and we could still keep that illegal while letting regulated indoor/brothel prostitution continue (see Nevada).
I'd rather see more laws against trafficking in prostitutes than against buying. Not that I have any love for people who pay for sex, but making it illegal to buy just forces the whole thing deeper into the shadows, as I mentioned before.
CR
HoreTore
07-24-2009, 10:01
making it illegal to buy just forces the whole thing deeper into the shadows, as I mentioned before.
....Which haven't happened here.
Dîn-Heru
07-24-2009, 10:04
Gawd, start reading Dagbladet, there have been a gahzillion articles on this since January 1st*. Or take a walk around Karl Johan.
So all in all, the law has been a success.
There is no "principle" here. There is no "legal right to sell". The law is made the way it is simply because of who we want to punish. We have no need to punish prostitutes, where's the sense in that? The only reason to punish a prostitute, is if we're overly religious, which we are not. But punishing the buyer is with a different reasoning, it is to cut the market for traffickers and pimps. If noone wants to buy, noone can make a profit from selling women.
*for non-norwegians, this is when we banned prostitution.
I have not, nor will I ever buy sex, so I don't care either way if it is legal or not, and therefore I don't follow the news about it either. So I asked because I was curious about it, and did not want to sift through endless articles on the subject. Like I said in my post, during the writing of it I ended up at the same position you have. So there is no need to get defensive..
But, I seem to have been unclear of the principle I was talking about. I was not referring to the current legislation, but to the very act of buying and selling a good that is offered.
You said that selling should be legal, buying not. Suppose that a woman who is not poor, not a drug addict, nor under any form of coercion decides that she wants to sell her body, why is she not allowed to profit of her body because buying it is illegal? (No pimps, no trafficking, all profits go to the woman herself)
This was the principle I was working from. Like you said, and I repeated, in reality this is not the case, so going after the first link in the blame chain might be a strategy good as any...
To finish: I agree with you in this, I just found your statement to simplistic.
HoreTore
07-24-2009, 10:17
You said that selling should be legal, buying not.
No no no. The correct version is; "buying should be punished, selling should not" ~;)
and sorry if I seemed defensive or cranky, wasn't my intention....
And as I said earlier, I don't see the point in outlawing "luxury prostitution". But I really don't see a need for a ton of tricky laws to make a distinction between the various forms of prostitution. If someone gets the 9000 NOK fine for buying a luxury prostitute..... Well, honestly, I don't really care.
EDIT: But honestly, I see no reason why we shouldn't charge people who buy trafficking victims with rape. Rape is forced sex, a trafficking victim is forced to sell herself, so I can't see how that isn't rape. And don't try telling me that the buyer doesn't know it.
Dîn-Heru
07-24-2009, 10:23
Hehe, no problem mate. Well, we agree in "principle" then. :wink:
LittleGrizzly
07-24-2009, 12:24
EDIT: But honestly, I see no reason why we shouldn't charge people who buy trafficking victims with rape. Rape is forced sex, a trafficking victim is forced to sell herself, so I can't see how that isn't rape. And don't try telling me that the buyer doesn't know it.
My friend ending up sleeping with a prostitute when we went to Malaga, she was quite possibly an illegal (my guess would be yes) and my friend was a fairly easy target, pissed out of his mind. She was an aggressive salesman shall we say...
I think it would be harsh to punish him for this... (he lost 500 Euros possibly stolen off him as it was...)
I think of prostitution almost like i think of boxing, its not paticularly pleasent and it seems wrong to make money of that activity. Though i would say prostitution is the worse one...
I wouldn't have any moral qualms (sp?) about going with a prostitute... I probably wouldn't use a street one for a number of reasons but one in a brothel type building.
Im too skanky though... either the price seems to high.. i can do that for free! ~;) or the product isn't quite the one i want ~;)
Rhyfelwyr
07-24-2009, 13:24
The only reason to punish a prostitute, is if we're overly religious, which we are not.
There's no need to punish the prostitute in my view, they are just victims of the whole system, through the poverty, drugs, pimping, trafficking etc. Legalising prostitution would only help with the last two of those problems. The fact is many women would still find themselves in the business not through pimps, but by being forced into it by their circumstances, most likely to fuell drug addictions. All you would be giving them is the freedom to sell themselves into slavery.
HoreTore
07-24-2009, 13:29
There's no need to punish the prostitute in my view, they are just victims of the whole system, through the poverty, drugs, pimping, trafficking etc. Legalising prostitution would only help with the last two of those problems. The fact is many women would still find themselves in the business not through pimps, but by being forced into it by their circumstances, most likely to fuell drug addictions. All you would be giving them is the freedom to sell themselves into slavery.
:2thumbsup:
Making selling legal and buying not is completely pointless, if enforced 100% there is absolutely no point in selling despite it being legal so the sellers would often try to help their customers.
Also it's legal here and there is still loads of human trafficking going on.
I don't really know a solution, maybe shoot the traffickers when they are caught.
Pannonian
07-24-2009, 13:41
That's really funny, Jolt. I bet most modern feminists, such as Susan Faludi, would laugh as heartily as I did at the notion that being opposed to trafficing in human sexuallity is a sure sign of religious thinking. I don't see where a belief in human dignity requires a religious context, but being as wise and all-knowing as you are, if you say it is so, it certainly must be so.
And you made your comment like an accusation. When did having spirtual considerations disqualify one from having a reasoned stance?
You know what I think? I think the people that favor legalizing prositution are those that earn their living through it and those that require it in order to engage in any sort of sexual activity that includes another person.
I favour legalising it, mainly after a spate of murders of prostitutes a couple of years ago, that went unnoticed for ages except by their friends. At the very least, prostitutes should not be criminalised, so they can have access to the protection of the law. Whether or not their business should be taxed I care less about.
AFAIK, historically the most significant opposition to legalising prostitution has come from spouses, who feared that the free use of prostitutes would threaten their rights and status as the woman of the family.
Centurion1
07-24-2009, 15:21
Taking pimps out of the game is harder than it sounds. In Nevada where they have legal brothels, they still have pimps and madams. They are the businessmen and women who take care of the finances and make it a legal operation (pays taxes, etc.) what i am saying is that they are not your usual pimps, they don't beat up the girls if they come home with not enough money. The vast majority of street pimps however, need to be shut down.
Human trafficking needs to be shut down. i don't care what it takes, personally i think you can make it a crime of murder, because you take those young girls and ruin their lives and basically make them a hollow shell of themselves with drugs.
The happy hooker myth is just that - a myth.
The "luxury escorts" fall in a different category though. That might not be illegal.
I saw in a British documentary following representatives from the Hampshire WI (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/7079964.stm)as they visited different legalized brothels around the world. In NZ, brothels are legal; and they visited two women, 30+ at least, who had prostitution as a part time job (I believe). They got all the money they earned for themselves. There was a certain term for these kind of "brothels"; where the prostitutes themselves were in control of the buisness. They were not a luxury escort.
Prodigal
07-24-2009, 16:29
Pointless debate, even if its legalised it won't stop illegal prostitution. It is the oldest profession for a reason, and that is because there are always some really sick :daisy: out there that will pay to have their deeply nasty, and usually illegal, habits catered too...And while people need money there will be people that will provide the service.
So unless you legalise every thing sexual, and that's ALOT of deeply nasty stuff, you may as well forget about it.
Moderators, please excuse the poor replacements for what can be considered mildly offensive language, however the poster in this instance considers the topic demands such expletives. :sweatdrop: An' we both know how much it hurts us when you take that daisy and :daisy::daisy::daisy::daisy::daisy::daisy: :daisy:
an i shtill w8ting! U owe me 8 dorrar fitty or nex time i no love u looooong time!
Hookers, prosititues, rent boys, whatever you want to call people in the sex industry, they are people too, legalisation is just another way of ******* people that are already in such a bad way they have 95% of the time no other choice.
rory_20_uk
07-24-2009, 18:03
Legalise it. Regulate it. Tax it.
Why do I work? For the rent and bills. I am a "slave" to my job. A prostitute's motives are quite similar.
Some might not want to do the job. Some might not like the clients they have. I know I don't always like the job and some of the clients are revolting.
Trying to police it out of existence quite clearly hasn't worked, and even if there were no more important tasks for the police to do (like arresting demonstrators for example) the ways of "not actually buying" would just multiply. As it is there are such wheezes of £50 or more for a glass of close to water, after purchase the girls will be much more friendly for a length of time.
With the large amount of money taxing these workers would bring in - and the reduction of police time spent on it - all efforts can be spent on those who are coerced into it and and other illegal activities.
~:smoking:
Prodigal
07-24-2009, 18:40
Bahhh...Mspost but wives will do that to a body
Prodigal
07-24-2009, 18:49
Legalise it. Regulate it. Tax it.
Why do I work? For the rent and bills. I am a "slave" to my job. A prostitute's motives are quite similar.
Some might not want to do the job. Some might not like the clients they have. I know I don't always like the job and some of the clients are revolting.
Trying to police it out of existence quite clearly hasn't worked, and even if there were no more important tasks for the police to do (like arresting demonstrators for example) the ways of "not actually buying" would just multiply. As it is there are such wheezes of £50 or more for a glass of close to water, after purchase the girls will be much more friendly for a length of time.
With the large amount of money taxing these workers would bring in - and the reduction of police time spent on it - all efforts can be spent on those who are coerced into it and and other illegal activities.
~:smoking:
Man that is such a ****** up way at looking at it its practically obscene, and you obviously don't know why, but damn...Excuse me, my wifes's home, and right now I don't have time to explain.
You really think everyone who sells themselves for sex does it for fun? If you do you are really screwed up man
rory_20_uk
07-24-2009, 19:41
Man that is such a ****** up way at looking at it its practically obscene, and you obviously don't know why, but damn...Excuse me, my wifes's home, and right now I don't have time to explain.
You really think everyone who sells themselves for sex does it for fun? If you do you are really screwed up man
Aside from your personal attacks, where did you see I stated that my reasoning for prostitution is that they enjoy it? :inquisitive:
~:smoking:
Kagemusha
07-24-2009, 19:55
My reasoning is that because it aint going nowhere, why not just legalize it and tax it. That way the money does not go to organized crime. Has worked pretty well in Netherlands for example.
Crazed Rabbit
07-24-2009, 19:59
I thought a lot of the red light districts in the Netherlands were controlled by organized crime. :inquisitive:
CR
Askthepizzaguy
07-24-2009, 20:29
What does making it illegal do? Does it prevent the sex trade from happening? No... you cannot stop two people from meeting anonymously and prevent cash from changing hands. Especially while things like one-night stands and voluntary gift giving are legal. Come to think of it, if I am dating someone and I purchase them a gift or cover their bills for whatever reason, one could almost make the argument that I am paying for sex; it depends on whether or not that is the intended arrangement or not. That basically means you have to know my motivation for giving someone a gift and also having sex with them; is it selfish or is it a relationship? Since you can't know what's going on in my mind, a very informal prostitution business could involve girls simply stating that they are in a relationship with a man, break it off really quickly as they are allowed to do, and accept whatever gifts come with the relationship. Obviously this is different from real relationships, but there doesn't appear to be a legal difference unless you can prove the intent is prostitution and not a one-night stand.
Even with enforcement, which wastes police manpower and taxpayer dollars, it doesn't prevent the sex trade from happening. I also have to look to the issue of pornography, which is legal. So, it is legal for a business to pay a person to have sex on camera, but it is not legal if the cameras aren't rolling? Pornography is nothing more than on-camera prostitution.
Seriously, if you've ever voluntarily watched pornographic video, you're consenting to prostitution. So why don't we stop being hypocritical about it? Since "ADULT FILM STARS" can legally work, pay their taxes, and so forth... you're holding a double standard if you make prostitution illegal. Either you BAN all one-night stands, gift-giving during a relationship of less than one month (or other ridiculous, arbitrary number) and all pornography whatsoever, or you're admitting that you really don't give one flying fig about "morality" in the sense of sexual morality and you're a hypocrite on the prostitution issue.
Do I want to see less of it? Yes. I also want to see people smoking and drinking less, but guess what it is none of my (expletive) business what YOU DO with YOUR BODY, unless you're talking about a public health issue. Widespread drug abuse is a public health issue because of factors like sharing needles or driving under the influence or unwanted contact highs, second-hand smoke, etc... then it becomes a public issue and that's why certain substances are banned or heavily regulated. But if you're smoking or drinking in your home or designated smoking or drinking area, it's none of my business. If you're doing marijuana in your own home and you can refrain from driving down the street high, I frankly don't give a hoot. If a woman or man wants to videotape herself/himself naked for money, not only do I not want to ban that activity, I want to make sure she's not getting exploited and she has legal protections. If a woman or man wants to do the same behavior off-camera, what's the freaking difference? It's still none of my business. I'd rather see less of that in my community and I'd rather see people in happy relationships, but you know the world isn't perfect and it is not my place to tell other people how to behave when it doesn't affect anyone but themselves.
I hate the double standard on stuff like this. If you purchase porn, you're basically endorsing prostitution, which is sex-for-pay. If you smoke, then you agree what you do to your body is your own business and I shouldn't be able to ban you from doing it in private. If you drink, same deal.
I'd like there to be one, and only one legal line when it comes to what you're allowed to do to your body. People pierce and tattoo themselves, because it is their body. People perform elective surgery on themselves in the form of plastic surgery and body modification and even sex changes. That is also none of your business. People circumcise their children, and although I might argue that is different because it's not technically their body, but their child's body, and usually unnecessary, circumcision is still legal. Drinking and smoking are regulated, but legal. Prescription drugs which can have addictive and harmful side-effects are heavily regulated, but legal. Unwed sexual relations are legal. One night stands and gift-giving is legal. Pornography is legal. But prostitution is illegal?
legalization allows several things to happen:
1. All sex workers can be accounted for, and their safety and well-being can be more closely monitored, and you can even require regular testing to look for diseases, which improves safety and public health.
2. Sex workers will be allowed to have legal protections, so it will be more difficult to abuse them and exploit them.
3. Sex workers will be required to report all income, and that taxable income could be used to pay for their medical testing and any mandatory drug rehabilitation if they are found to be using dangerous illegal drugs. Again, this improves public health and the well-being of those who were outcasts and on the fringe of society.
4. We can stop wasting police time and tax dollars on this silly issue. Maybe we could have more cops protecting us against armed robbery and hard drug trafficking.
There's a number of other arguments. However this is already rambling so I'll end it here. Point is, I might hate the idea of prostitution, but I can't stop it, and it really is none of my business, and the benefits of regulation as opposed to keeping it illegal are many, while keeping it illegal does nothing more than put poor people in jail, who will be released very shortly, and go right back to doing it. Oh, and it makes some religious/moral types feel righteous, I suppose. I think it just holds society back from a more tolerant and wise perspective.
Ser Clegane
07-24-2009, 20:30
@ Prodigal
Please keep this civil and refrain from making personal attacks
Thanks
Prostitution can be made legal everywhere (as opposed to being legal in Nevada and semi-legal in Jersey), that's not a big deal really. The being deal is to make sure that the society at large alwys shuns the profession and and views it as something dirty and unsavory. That, imho, is more important and should never change.
Askthepizzaguy
07-24-2009, 20:44
@rvg
Why? If you freely admit that it isn't a big deal, and you would like to make it legal, then why do you feel sex workers should be persecuted and maligned in any way? I think people get depressed and suicidal in such situations precisely because society treats them like freshly pushed poo.
@rvg
Why? If you freely admit that it isn't a big deal, and you would like to make it legal, then why do you feel sex workers should be persecuted and maligned in any way? I think people get depressed and suicidal in such situations precisely because society treats them like freshly pushed poo.
I do not want them *persecuted* at all. However, I never want the society at large to say that prostitution is *normal* or *okay*. Legality of it is one thing (and that doesn't bother me), however, it should never be accepted by society as something positive or even benign. Prostitution should always be bad in the eyes of the general public.
Askthepizzaguy
07-24-2009, 20:55
Okay... sort of like excessive overeating or smoking is starting to be looked down upon?
I can agree to some extent. I just think some people are a bit too self-righteous about things like this, especially if they've ever viewed porn, as an example. I don't like the idea of treating these people like they are scum of the earth when those of us who aren't saints aren't much better.
Just checking to see where you drew the line, rvg.
Yeah, I guess it's sorta like smoking.
Example:
a) Father #1 (beaming with pride): My daughter is a scientist!
b) Father #2 (beaming with pride): My daughter is a CEO!
c) Father #3 (beaming with pride): My daughter is a whore!
C should never be a source of pride.
Rhyfelwyr
07-24-2009, 21:04
@rvg
Why? If you freely admit that it isn't a big deal, and you would like to make it legal, then why do you feel sex workers should be persecuted and maligned in any way? I think people get depressed and suicidal in such situations precisely because society treats them like freshly pushed poo.
I don't think anybody here is suggesting persecuting the sex workers themselves, we seem to be agreed that they are the victims in the scenario. It's the :daisy:'s that take advantage of people who are forced into selling their bodies, nearly always because of drug habits that are beyond their control.
rory_20_uk
07-24-2009, 21:19
I don't think anybody here is suggesting persecuting the sex workers themselves, we seem to be agreed that they are the victims in the scenario. It's the :daisy:'s that take advantage of people who are forced into selling their bodies, nearly always because of drug habits that are beyond their control.
Whilst there might be many in this category, the upper class whores that Silvio Berlusconi has been boning are not doing it for the drugs, they're doing it for the money. Roughly the same amount that takes many people earn in 2 months (the amount was £5,000) for one night!
~:smoking:
semi-legal in Jersey
How is that?
HoreTore
07-25-2009, 01:18
Whilst there might be many in this category, the upper class whores that Silvio Berlusconi has been boning are not doing it for the drugs, they're doing it for the money. Roughly the same amount that takes many people earn in 2 months (the amount was £5,000) for one night!
~:smoking:
They're not really relevant to the discussion though, as they represent a tiny minority, and they do not in any way represent what prostitution is about.
Kadagar_AV
07-25-2009, 01:45
Being half Austrian and half Swedish, and spent an ample amount of time in both countries, I believe I can share some insights (prostitution is illegal in Sweden but Legal in Austria).
In Sweden, most whores are from slavic countries. They work on the street or as call girls, usually controlled by some pimp. They are almost without exception addicted to drugs, an easy way for the pimp to get control.
In Austria, they work in bordells who are strictly controlled by the state. Same as in Sweden, the vast majority is from slavic countries, the difference is that drug use is not as wide spread. At the bordells they also have security if things go wrong, and medical checks every so often.
My stance is that I believe it should be legal. Prostitution WILL exist one way or another, better have it out in the open and under control. Also, I prefer the whores paying taxes instead of the money going to some criminal dirtbag.
As a sidenote: One might say I have prostituted myself on more than one occation... When I have had private lessons at the ski school there has happened that women have wanted me to "escort" them at night, showing them the town and so on. It is clear that sex is included in this offer.
I've never accepted unless it was someone I would have banged anyway, and I never did anything for money that I wouldnt have done anyway for fun...
First time it felt a bit wierd getting some hundred euros for having a pleasent evening and banging some high-society woman...
But I can't say it made me feel bad, or dirty, or anything :)
Guess it's different for men...
Seamus Fermanagh
07-25-2009, 05:02
Is anyone here arguing that prostitution represents a moral "good?"
As I'm something of a libertarian, I am reluctant to legislate my morality for others, save when such legislation is required to protect the rights of all, but I can hardly view prostitution as something positive.
I would probably think it best were it legal but frowned upon.
Louis VI the Fat
07-25-2009, 05:17
I would probably think it best were it legal but frowned upon.Would you believe I think the exact opposite?
I want it to be illegal, but wish it wasn't frowned upon.
Why shouldn't protitution be considered a normal means of income? I mean, I have sold my body. To men. Mainly old men. Who desired a few hours of my youthful, manly physical prowess. I was fourteen at the time. No I didn't enjoy it, but I needed the money to buy music and other teenage stuff.
It was hard work, mowing their lawns...
Cute Wolf
07-25-2009, 08:55
Just let them do whatever they want, and get a blind eyes on them (and do occasional health check), and that will be ok. Just keep the rules: don't ask, don't tell
Personally is no, they destroy family and relationship, and several sacred goats and sheeeps that most religious persons follows. But just let them do whatever they want :laugh:
a completely inoffensive name
07-25-2009, 09:41
I say legalize it, have the government kick out the pimps and raise the health standard, the standard of living and the overall quality of the prostitutes by giving them free protection, STD checks every week or two and allow them to run their own brothels and charge however much they want to charge at the same time sending any druggies to rehabilitation centers.
Essentially just have a big purge of the prostitution system by giving help to the druggies, arresting the abusive pimps and putting the power in those that are clean and drug free to determine how much they believe they can get for their body.
Idk, just my two thoughts. I figure those that do it just for the drugs need to be taken off the street and given help anyway, so if we are to legalize it that would be a non issue. K, you can all now flame me for obviously not putting enough thought into this and not realizing how stupid/immoral blah blah blah....
rory_20_uk
07-25-2009, 11:37
They're not really relevant to the discussion though, as they represent a tiny minority, and they do not in any way represent what prostitution is about.
Ah, they don't fit the simplistic picture that's being drawn, and so can be safely ignored...
Is there some data to back up the claim that the majority are in it because of drugs, that the majority are forced or coerced into it?
~:smoking:
LittleGrizzly
07-25-2009, 11:40
Helping prostitutes who came here illegally (im assuming a fair few of them are) kick thier drug habits isn't going to be a great political move during a credit crunch (damn foriegn whores taking our money!)
But if we were to legalise we could (theoratically) put aside all the moeny we make from taxing the industry to helping the women themselves. From drug programs to help them get off thier addictions, training to maybe help them learn a useful skill employers want, help with the langauge for those that need it...
Citizenship and protection for those that wish to inform on violent or otherwise illegaly controlling pimps. The people who think prostitution should remain illegal mainly do so because they feel for the prostitute, but surely a system where its legalised and the tax money was used to help these women escape prostitiution would be better for the women themselves ?
Of course new prostitutes would just replace any ones we managed to help out of it, but it would help the women escape the situation far easier than it is possible to do so now...
Is there some data to back up the claim that the majority are in it because of drugs, that the majority are forced or coerced into it?
I have heard various bits of information that backed this up, most documentarys which include interviews with women who worked the bottom end of the market they say they were forced into it, usually to pay debts for being illegaly smuggled into the country... but no i don't have any statistics to back up this fact...
rory_20_uk
07-25-2009, 11:44
Getting off opiates is relatively easy: lock 'em up for about 1 week. They'll have detoxed. You might feel like death, but there's relatively little chance of dying - far less than when injecting a respiratory depressant of unknown amount along with impurities into a vein.
Alcohol is harder, but is generally not thought of as a problem in the main.
Again, all prostitutes are doing this against their will, and all would escape.
Are all porn stars doing it against their will? Do they all secretly hate their profession? And no females actively try to raise money via pictures of themselves either alone or undertaking acts with others?
~:smoking:
MasterPhantom
07-25-2009, 18:34
Yes, why not? If the woman wants to sell her body, it should be allowed. Making it illegal only makes it worse. People know the dangers of STD's and unwanted pregnancies, can't force people to make decisions.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
07-25-2009, 19:16
Yes, why not? If the woman wants to sell her body, it should be allowed. Making it illegal only makes it worse. People know the dangers of STD's and unwanted pregnancies, can't force people to make decisions.
That is the key. If the woman or man wants to sell his or her body, it should be allowed. Prostitution should be legalized, but this should also be accompanied by a massive crackdown on human trafficking.
MasterPhantom
07-25-2009, 19:20
That is the key. If the woman or man wants to sell his or her body, it should be allowed. Prostitution should be legalized, but this should also be accompanied by a massive crackdown on human trafficking.
Yes, I know. Now, if someone is forced to have sex like in human trafficking, then I am against it, but otherwise, I see no problem with it.
Divinus Arma
07-26-2009, 21:35
Yes.
End of debate.
Edit: Just ask the Orgah, a grown man, who admitted to never having pulled back his foreskin.
/debate
Reverend Joe
07-28-2009, 06:15
Good lord, who got pwned?
a completely inoffensive name
07-28-2009, 07:20
The world will never know.
pevergreen
07-28-2009, 07:23
You can still see...someone should probably get rid of that.
Yes.
End of debate.
Edit: Just ask the Orgah, a grown man, who admitted to never having pulled back his foreskin.
/debate
I've told you before I can't :whip: And yes it should be legal.
Pannonian
07-28-2009, 20:36
I've told you before I can't :whip: And yes it should be legal.
I thought pulling back one's own foreskin was already legal. Isn't it?
Not if you get paid for it.
Or if your paying someone else to do it.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.