from rockets to culture wars

[Hooahguy]

link (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/world/middleeast/24gaza.html)


The aim is to build what leaders here call a “culture of resistance,” the topic of a recent two-day conference. In recent days, a play has been staged, a movie premiered, an art exhibit mounted, a book of poems published and a television series begun, most of it state-sponsored and all focused on the plight of Palestinians in Gaza. There are plans for a documentary competition.

“Armed resistance is still important and legitimate, but we have a new emphasis on cultural resistance,” noted Ayman Taha, a Hamas leader and former fighter. “The current situation required a stoppage of rockets. After the war, the fighters needed a break and the people needed a break.”


Increasingly, people here are questioning the value of the rockets, not because they hit civilians but because they are seen as relatively ineffective.

“What did the rockets do for us? Nothing,” Mona Abdelaziz, a 36-year-old lawyer, said in a typical street interview here.

i am quite happy to hear that hamas may be ending for the most part the rocket attacks, but i am not happy that hatred towards israel is still being nourished by hamas, now through culture, which, in a way is worse. but im also glad that its not working, as seen by the second quoted text.
new page for arab-israeli relations or will nothing change?

[rory_20_uk]

A good way to break the hatred might be to, y'know, give them less to hate Israel for? Stop the land, sea and air embargo? Stop settlements? Let aid in?

It's easy to generate hate against a larger state that is crushing the life out of you, but not so easy when they appear as benign.

~:smoking:

[Hooahguy]

which is i guess why israel has been letting in more supplies to gaza, like 100 trucks a day.


although Israel does allow about 100 trucks of food and medicine in each day, and more and more goods are coming in through desert smuggler tunnels from Egypt. Israel is experimenting with minor adjustments, allowing some equipment and glass in last week for the first time in a long time.

[Fragony]

i am quite happy to hear that hamas may be ending for the most part the rocket attacks

Not in your wildest dream, never, not gonna happen. Just might have something to do with the green revolution in Iran, someone has to pay for all that curlyshooting besides the UN and EU. But the Israeli's might get a little while to catch their breath, so it's not all bad they can get an icecream or something like that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

which is i guess why israel has been letting in more supplies to gaza, like 100 trucks a day.

You want peace? Stop counting the trucks, bring down the walls, tell the soldiers to go home.

Then, offer to buy the rockets and use that money to repair roads, hospitals etc.

Even better, start printing Korans in Jerusalem and handing them out free.

[Hooahguy]

that sounds all nice, but unfortuntely the wall is a vital part for israeli defense.
would be suicide bombers are channeled through checkpoints where they can be found out before they do any harm. hundreds if not thousands of would be suicide bombers have been stopped in this manner.
while it sounds cruel, there really is no other way.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

that sounds all nice, but unfortuntely the wall is a vital part for israeli defense.
would be suicide bombers are channeled through checkpoints where they can be found out before they do any harm. hundreds if not thousands of would be suicide bombers have been stopped in this manner.
while it sounds cruel, there really is no other way.

Except, the wall is in Palastinian territory.

Sooner or later the Israeli government has to stop the settlements and leave the Palastinians alone. Otherwise, the West Bank will fill up and people will start asking, "what happens when they reach the Jordan".

[Hooahguy]

well israel has something like 60% of the west bank under its control. and the fact that israel needs that barrier means that its not coming down for a while.
if you want my updated view on israel and palestine go to the "palestine supporters group"
heck, ill post it here:

i am both pro-israel and pro-palestinian. i want to see a palestinian state peacefully co-existing side-by-side with israel.
now, to do that, certain things must be done by both sides. israel must ease its restrictions on Gaza and the west bank, as well as stop illegal settlements in the west bank.
on the other side, the palestinians MUST stop all forms of violence against israel.
but both sides must do this. it is foolish to expect one side to do their part and not the other side do their part as well.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

well israel has something like 60% of the west bank under its control. and the fact that israel needs that barrier means that its not coming down for a while.
if you want my updated view on israel and palestine go to the "palestine supporters group"
heck, ill post it here:

Fair enough, but Israel has the power, and so should make concessions first. So long as the Palastinians feel oppressed they will continue to fight. Fact is, Israel can afford to quite litterally give ground but Palastine can't.

[Hooahguy]

true, israel can make concessions (ie the west bank settlements), but it may be at the loss of life on israels part, if they take down that wall. i mean, if one of them was take down the wall, there may be a surge in suicde bombings, which would either throw up the wall again or something worse, and destroy the peace process. but i do support taking down the settlements.
the latest developments shows that while hamas has been moving slightly away from fighting, it still wants to fight, making the removal of the wall impossible for israel.

[Husar]

How about you keep the wall and abandon the settlements, then the palestinians stop attack ing and then you can abandon the wall as well, or build a wall along your internationally recognized border in the meantime and just go back to that.
Not gonna happen I know, but that way both sides would have some kind of reassurance.

[Hooahguy]

How about you keep the wall and abandon the settlements, then the palestinians stop attack ing and then you can abandon the wall as well, or build a wall along your internationally recognized border in the meantime and just go back to that.
Not gonna happen I know, but that way both sides would have some kind of reassurance.
thats what i was just advocating....
btw israel cant go to the 1948 borders. they are literally impossible to defend plus not enough space for that kind of population.

[rory_20_uk]

thats what i was just advocating....
btw israel cant go to the 1948 borders. they are literally impossible to defend plus not enough space for that kind of population.

Wonderful!!!

-Palestinians have a far greater population density
-Palestinian land is even more impossible to defend
-Israel has an undisclosed number of nukes


...But for some reason we need to worry about Israel's needs...

~:smoking:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Wonderful!!!

-Palestinians have a far greater population density
-Palestinian land is even more impossible to defend


And who's fault is that again?

[LittleGrizzly]

And who's fault is that again?

Not nessecarily in order and not everyone but i would say it is...

Britian's
The U.N's
The Nazis
The people that moved to Israel
Czechoslovakia (indirectly through them by the U.S.S.R)
USA
All the local ME dictators who use the Palestinians as a distraction. (Jordan, Egypt ect.)
Israel (the people that moved covers the mass immigration before Israel, this covers everything after the state is founded)

and lastly the Palestinians themselves, though given everything going on around them you can't really blame them for thier reaction...

So in answer to your question mostly every major player in the conflict...

...But for some reason we need to worry about Israel's needs...

They are rich and have much better PR, to expect us to treat them equally is just some leftist fantasy ~;)

[Vladimir]

Not in your wildest dream, never, not gonna happen. Just might have something to do with the green revolution in Iran, someone has to pay for all that curlyshooting besides the UN and EU. But the Israeli's might get a little while to catch their breath, so it's not all bad they can get an icecream or something like that.

Good catch Frags! :thumbsup: I almost fell into that idealistic trap too. It makes sense that they're pushing this new "cultural offensive campaign" (or offensive cultural campaign) due to a tightening supply from Iran.

[Aemilius Paulus]

If Israel wishes peace after so much hate and blood, they will have to turn the other cheek. Several times. Suicide bombings will happen as security lowers, most likely, but Israel will have to "keep forgiving". And that way for about ten years, hopefully enough time for it to sink in the Palestinian minds. That will solve the problem, but it is a great sacrifice, and Israel will not perform it. Nor do I castigate them for that.

Israelis, as all of us know, stepped into deep swamp when they decided to migrate to Palestinia, and thus the near-impossibility of solving the Palestine-Israeli crisis. Like Iraq, it is best not to get involved. Nothing new in these words though...

[Hooahguy]

If Israel wishes peace after so much hate and blood, they will have to turn the other cheek.
tell that to the families of the victims. :thumbsdown:

[seireikhaan]

tell that to the families of the victims. :thumbsdown:
If Israel wishes peace after so much hate and blood, they will have to turn the other cheek. :bow:

[Hooahguy]

as i said before, peace must be made both ways. there is no use to let suicide bombers ravage the country while you do nothing. your constituency will hate you.
if the palestinians want peace and land they must also turn the other cheek. :bow:
furthermore, i would like to know how turning the other cheek will bring peace. if anything, it will just encourage hamas.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

as i said before, peace must be made both ways. there is no use to let suicide bombers ravage the country while you do nothing. your constituency will hate you.
if the palestinians want peace and land they must also turn the other cheek. :bow:
furthermore, i would like to know how turning the other cheek will bring peace. if anything, it will just encourage hamas.

It will encourage Hamas, and completely undermine them. Vendettas continue because Sons kill the murderers of the Fathers. The only way to stop it is either to wipe one side out, or for one side to give in and not respond to the murders, then they will stop.

Israel should be the one to turn the other cheek because:

A: Arguably Israel started it.

B: Israel currently hold the power.

C: Israel will ultimately be destroyed if it doesn't.

If C were not true then the Israeli state would have domolished the Dome of the Rock already, they haven't because they know EVERY Islamic country would unite and they wouldn't survive that. Sooner or later either American money or patience will run out, and then it's open season.

[Hooahguy]

If C were not true then the Israeli state would have domolished the Dome of the Rock already, they haven't because they know EVERY Islamic country would unite and they wouldn't survive that. Sooner or later either American money or patience will run out, and then it's open season.

case study: 1948 war for independence

[LittleGrizzly]

case study: 1948 war for independence

Well seen as your indestructible we can stop talking about needing lands to help make the country safe from future invasions.... ~;)

Hooahguy the way I see it the situation will not get resolved without Israel turning the other cheek (as unfair as that is) If you knew that the only way to end this situation was to turn the other cheek... would you accept the policy or continue the conflict ?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Israel should be the one to turn the other cheek because:

A: Arguably Israel started it.

B: Israel currently hold the power.

C: Israel will ultimately be destroyed if it doesn't.

A: Arguably Palestinians and Arabs started it.

B: Palestinians currently hold the power (or held it) to stop attacking.

C: Palestine ultimately will be destroyed if it doesn't stop (maybe not, but maybe).

Works both ways. A good peace deal needs both sides sitting down, being reasonable, and working out a solution. I think the Palestinians and Arab states are in the wrong - but that doesn't matter one bit. What matters is that they sit down and work it out, and that both sides keep the peace unless absolutely necessary. I personally think Israel is doing a better job than the Palestinians at this at the moment, but that doesn't matter either. The solution is what matters, and both sides should show a little flexibility.

But don't expect Israel to be attacked and not respond unless you expect the same in equal measure from Palestinians. Expecting otherwise is unfair and patronizing to both sides.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

case study: 1948 war for independence

That was so long ago as to be completely irrelevant, technology, readiness and demographics have all changed. In any case, Israel has always won by getting the Arabs to stop, not by outright destroying them.

A sustained and determined Arab assault will simply drive Israel into the Sea.

[Idaho]

A: Arguably Palestinians and Arabs started it.

B: Palestinians currently hold the power (or held it) to stop attacking.

C: Palestine ultimately will be destroyed if it doesn't stop (maybe not, but maybe).

Works both ways. A good peace deal needs both sides sitting down, being reasonable, and working out a solution. I think the Palestinians and Arab states are in the wrong - but that doesn't matter one bit. What matters is that they sit down and work it out, and that both sides keep the peace unless absolutely necessary. I personally think Israel is doing a better job than the Palestinians at this at the moment, but that doesn't matter either. The solution is what matters, and both sides should show a little flexibility.

But don't expect Israel to be attacked and not respond unless you expect the same in equal measure from Palestinians. Expecting otherwise is unfair and patronizing to both sides.

Powerful, rich country is created by taking land from people who are kicked out into small poor country. Rich country then occupies and embargoes small poor country. Rich country kills 4 times as many poor country people.

This is, of course, all the poor country's fault.


would be suicide bombers are channeled through checkpoints where they can be found out before they do any harm. hundreds if not thousands of would be suicide bombers have been stopped in this manner

That looks awfully like a 'fact' that you have pulled out of thin air. Any evidence to back it up?

[Hooahguy]

That was so long ago as to be completely irrelevant, technology, readiness and demographics have all changed. In any case, Israel has always won by getting the Arabs to stop, not by outright destroying them.

A sustained and determined Arab assault will simply drive Israel into the Sea.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
yeah right. yeah right.
with what? there is little that the arab states have that the IDF cant surpass. the IAF is the most advanced in the middle east. the IDF has some of the best tanks, the merkava, and its infantry...
simply put, there is no way.


That looks awfully like a 'fact' that you have pulled out of thin air. Any evidence to back it up?

well, i could put forth this (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Suicide+and+Other+Bombing+Attacks+in+Israel+Since.htm) but of course you people are quick to go bonkers and shout OMG ISRAEL SAID THAT SO IT CANT BE TRUE!!!!!!!!
i find that you people are quick to say that when israel puts forth something that supports your opinion as fact, but god forbid they say anything that contradicts your views.
:juggle2:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
yeah right. yeah right.
with what? there is little that the arab states have that the IDF cant surpass. the IAF is the most advanced in the middle east. the IDF has some of the best tanks, the merkava, and its infantry...
simply put, there is no way.

Quality is only one part of the equation, training, numbers and motivation are also essential. Israel is way down on numbers, training and quality of equipment they are up on, but probably not by enough. That leaves motivation, the value of which is unknown.

[rory_20_uk]

with what? there is little that the arab states have that the IDF cant surpass. the IAF is the most advanced in the middle east. the IDF has some of the best tanks, the merkava, and its infantry...

Syria has loads of missiles with chemical and biological topped warheads. Israel isn't that large a country. With a large amount of damage to everything in the area the country could be covered in a mixture of biological pathogens and nerve gas.

~:smoking:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Uh, I gotta agree with Hooahguy here. Israel only "stopped" the Arab attackers (in ALL of the Wars) because of international pressure to let it go, on the assumption that the Arab states would learn their freaking lesson.

Unfortunately, they didn't. To this day, the Israeli military is one of the best in the world. Anyone who doubts that needs to get on Wikipedia and type in "Merkava Main Battle Tank." If you don't believe me after that, go to a military post and see if you can't get a guided tour of an Abrams tank. You'll immediately see why the Israeli's are genius.

Beyond that though, historical examples should such an obvious precedence for Israel winning by a far margin. Limited warfare is what kills them--like it kills any overwhelming force. In an all-out assault, Israel will win every time.

In an all out assault Israel will have to face more men than it can possibly defeat. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, not to mention Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Please, in Iraq 2 a whole Division tried to surrender to the British before the war started. We kept rounding them up, disarming them, packing them off and doing it again when Saddam rearmed them. Try the War in Lebenon, 2006. The Israelis won, but they were facing a smaller and poorer country and they still had a rough time of it. 10 of your vaunted tanks were destroyed by Hezbollah, as opposed to 0 British tanks in the War in Iraq.

[Hooahguy]

Israel is way down on numbers,
true. but we were also down in numbers in every major war anyhow. plus about half the population is in the reserves so there is still a large pool of manpower to use.

training
have you ever seen the IDF train? for petes sake, the US CTU's come to israel to get training from the israeli special forces, at least thats what it said in that documentary about the US special forces. israeli security personnel are in control of the airport security in Loiusville KY, if not other places as well.
the IDF is the best trained military in the region by far.

and quality of equipment they are up on, but probably not by enough. That leaves motivation, the value of which is unknown.
motivation? you keep saying how the palestinians are motivated to defend their homeland. same in this case.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

10 tanks is.. paltry. Seriously. But the 2006 deal was limited warfare on political terms, ended for political convenience. If you think for a moment that Israel couldn't have seriously de-populated and pacified that entire region to the point where you could comfortably plant a big VICTORY sticker on the enemy leader's forhead, then you're missing what that conflict was about.

How many tanks do the Israelis have? 10 is a lot for a developed nation facing insurgants with 1980's weaponry, especially in such a small conflict.

In eight years of high-intensity warfare in Iraq and Afganistan the total is....2.

It simply demonstrates that, without tanks themselves, the Lebonese had the resources to destroy Israeli tanks. Of course, it all hinges on the Air War. Lebenon did not have an army or airforce to speak of.

[seireikhaan]

In all out warfare, Israel wins.

Why? Because there's enough nuclear power to reduce the arab states to impotence. But please, folks, can we get back to where the topic started?

[Husar]

It's all moot if rory is correct because the glorious IDF would be defending an empty country...

[Hooahguy]

In eight years of high-intensity warfare in Iraq and Afganistan the total is....2.

lol, what? (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-03-29-abrams-tank-a_x.htm)

:dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2:
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

read the book "thunder run." its about the US armored drive into baghdad. much more than 2 tanks were knocked out.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

lol, what? (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-03-29-abrams-tank-a_x.htm)

:dizzy2::dizzy2::dizzy2:
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Sorry, British tanks. The American tank is well over 20 years old now and has sub-standard armour by comparison.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Why would Saudi Arabia or Syria or Egypt want Israel destroyed? It is in their own interest to maintain things as they are so as to provide an outlet for their domestic "violent fringers" to go kill someone else (Israelis and those supporting Israel) and not upset the apple-carts at home. Remember, where did most of the 9-11 strike team hail from? Hint: A certain royal family is much happier to have them striking at the USA and/or Israel than turning their attentions toward the extant autocracy....

Given the propensity of human cultures to hold grudges, coupled with nation-states who have a vested interest in continuing low-level violence as a pressure "bleed-off," we can relax and look forward to continued violence in the mideast for decades.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why would Saudi Arabia or Syria or Egypt want Israel destroyed? It is in their own interest to maintain things as they are so as to provide an outlet for their domestic "violent fringers" to go kill someone else (Israelis and those supporting Israel) and not upset the apple-carts at home. Remember, where did most of the 9-11 strike team hail from? Hint: A certain royal family is much happier to have them striking at the USA and/or Israel than turning their attentions toward the extant autocracy....

Given the propensity of human cultures to hold grudges, coupled with nation-states who have a vested interest in continuing low-level violence as a pressure "bleed-off," we can relax and look forward to continued violence in the mideast for decades.

I merely said it was militarily possible, and I pointed out that was why the Israelis wont ever destroy the Dome of the Rock.

[drone]

If you are just comparing numbers, the Israelis look to be easily overpowered by the Arab states. In reality, you have to look at the logistics. It would take a while for the Arab states to mobilize their forces, which would be easily detected by the Israelis. The IAF would be tasked with preemptive strikes before the full weight of the attack could occur (or even before any open hostilities),and thus make the initial assault an uncoordinated, piecemeal effort, degree of difficulty compounded even more by the multiple command structures of the Arab armies. I don't think it would be a slaughter on the order of Desert Storm, but the Arab states would have to be very lucky to succeed.

If Syria uses chemical or bio weapons, the Arab capitols will be glowing holes in the ground.

[Hooahguy]

If Syria uses chemical or bio weapons, the Arab capitols will be glowing holes in the ground.
:yes:
ever heard of the sampson option?

[Aemilius Paulus]

:yes:
ever heard of the sampson option?
Oh, God, I have, and it is horrific and indicative of the general degeneration of the Israeli state. Selfish "if we cannot live; neither shall they". Precisely why I do not support Israelis on moral grounds, but on political, economic, and practical reasons. Nothing to be proud of here, Hooah. There is no pride in such meaningless vengeance.

This Israeli policy simply reeks of the lack of any philosophy governing the minds of the big wheels of the Jewish state. One would expect the Jews, the more "Westernised" and "civilised" peoples in the Middle East to be on a higher standard, but in reality, everyone is a swine/rat/insert-unflattering-animal in the Middle East.


The only value of the Samson option is the deterrent value, and if the war already starts, and Israeli loses, I would suggest abandoning it. To shift the perspective, how would the rest of the world feel if USSR declared their own, Dr. Strangelovian doomsday device? Shall USSR go down, millions would die for literally no other reason than petty revenge and empty arrogance.

What is the logic, the philosophical sense behind it? More like a child who, when confronted with the realisation that he will not receive his plaything, renders the toy useless for other in one way or another, either by hiding it, or by destroying it. Israel may not destroy the whole world with its doomsday device, but the damage to innocent Arab civilians is enough. You are already dead. What difference does it make if your "enemy" disappears into nothingness.

[Hooahguy]

dude, its just a theory.

[Aemilius Paulus]

dude, its just a theory.
I would not be so sure. And pardon me for being a pedant, it is a hypothesis, as you were attempting to convey. If it was a theory, then it would be a highly proven act that cannot be directly observed and confirmed, which would mean you support my position.

But yes, Israel has those weapons. Nuclear weapons. It seems to indicate with its behaviour that it will employ them as a deterrent, given its disinclination to officially admit their own possession of nuclear weapons.

[Hooahguy]

well duh its a deterrent. why dont you think there has been a major war in a long time? i mean, besides all that other stuff.

[Aemilius Paulus]

well duh its a deterrent. why dont you think there has been a major war in a long time? i mean, besides all that other stuff.
The wars did not happen for the lack of other reasons to significant incite them and due to the Arabs finally learning the previous lessons to "not mess with Israel". Not to mention, war is mostly unprofitable, unless you are the MIC or trying to stimulate your economy by building a Keynesian Egyptian pyramid in the form of weapons production, as the money sink. Nothing more simple yet effective as that.

It is a deterrent, but does it also double as a Doomsday device, albeit for Arabs and not the entire world?

[Jolt]

btw hooahguy, you should really read this: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/63719/walter-russell-mead/change-they-can-believe-in
Buy the article if you can. I would already have posted the text here, were it not copyright infringement. It a massive solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem, one which I wholeheartedly agree and I was very excited as I read the article.

On the Samson Option thingie. I believe the execution of such a suicidal attack would have a great backlash against Jews worldwide. It would radicalize not only the entire Arab society, but the Muslim society as well. Many moderate muslims don't see anything wrong with the existence of Israel but after such attacks, I'm sure every muslim would demand the total extermination of Jews in Israel. Further, if the effects of several powerful nukes would be felt in due time in western nations (through climatic changes), you would assist to a shift in the treatment of Jews in western nations, since all the jews would be blamed for what would be happening in the world and we would start to see general discrimination towards the jews again. So yeah, it would suck.

EDIT: Actually, the Essay is free for registered users, since that is so, I suppose there is no copyright infringement if I post it. I shall create a new thread for it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Perhaps it is just the Zionist controlled media that is influencing my opinion, but...

I've read more stories about bombs exploding in Israeli marketplaces and rockets and suicide bombers attacking Israel than about any other topic. Years go by and Israel gets fed up and retaliates against the rocket launchers and terrorist camps and military headquarters and puts a boot in their butt, and then almost immediately backs off because of the united nations.

Then, the months and months go by and many hundreds of Israeli deaths later... Israel is still being told to concede not only land, but to turn the other cheek and just let suicide bombers kill their civilians without reaction. The crazy part is, they even try that nonsense. And it doesn't work, because these groups attacking Israel don't want concessions. They want Israel to be destroyed, period.

Repeatedly Israel has offered concessions, including most of the land they wanted and a recognized Palestinian state, to which Palestine has spat on their offer and shouted death to Israel. If such things were happening on the border of the United States and Mexico, I think the reaction would be easy to predict... invasion and installation of a pro-USA puppet regime, and constant patrols of the former USA-mexico border by the United States military. I don't believe any civilized nation on Earth would seriously accept the idea that they simply have to put up with being blown up constantly, and to act differently is somehow wrong.

As far as I am concerned, Israel has made real and serious attempts at peace and they bend to the will of the United Nations in all cases except being asked to simply surrender. What puzzles me is that the UN is the reason why there is a freaking state of Israel in the first place, and they are blaming their creation for existing rather than themselves. Meanwhile, (wikipedia) The Hamas charter (or covenant), issued in 1988, calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or nullification of Israel.

And that's who's been elected by the people of Palestine, with a currently and relatively high approval rating among the Palestinian people. In light of everything Hamas stands for, I only care about Palestinians for humanitarian reasons, all of which wouldn't be an issue if they didn't want to obliterate Israel and they accepted an honorable and rational peace accord. My sympathies are only for the actual innocents among them.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Perhaps it is just the Zionist controlled media that is influencing my opinion, but...

I've read more stories about bombs exploding in Israeli marketplaces and rockets and suicide bombers attacking Israel than about any other topic. Years go by and Israel gets fed up and retaliates against the rocket launchers and terrorist camps and military headquarters and puts a boot in their butt, and then almost immediately backs off because of the united nations.

What is wrong is that you fail to mention how and why it all started, something any defender of the Jewish State will usually do. Now, of course, Israel is sitting on Mtn. Olympus and the Arabs act more like little children or worse. It is easy to make posts such as yours, and you would be correct if not for history.

But of course, you purposely omitted the history... How suitable and shrewd. And that appeal to the common people with your non-nonsense style. Why, this is not just beautiful, it is brilliant! I would employ you immideately as the Israeli governemnt-channel news anchor, if there was such position!

[Idaho]

hundreds if not thousands of would be suicide bombers have been stopped in this manner.


well, i could put forth this (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Suicide+and+Other+Bombing+Attacks+in+Israel+Since.htm) but of course you people are quick to go bonkers and shout OMG ISRAEL SAID THAT SO IT CANT BE TRUE!!!!!!!!
i find that you people are quick to say that when israel puts forth something that supports your opinion as fact, but god forbid they say anything that contradicts your views.
:juggle2:

So according to your first post "hundreds if not thousands" have been stopped by the wall. Whereas in the evidence you cite only 120 bombings occurred over a ten year period. Based on your own evidence, you initial assertion can best be described as an exaggeration, at worst a willful distortion.

All of those attacks killed over 500 people. In the same period, IDF attacks on civillian targets in the occupied territories have claimed well over 3,000 lives. Many of them women and children.

[Idaho]

Perhaps it is just the Zionist controlled media that is influencing my opinion, but...

I've read more stories about bombs exploding in Israeli marketplaces and rockets and suicide bombers attacking Israel than about any other topic. Years go by and Israel gets fed up and retaliates against the rocket launchers and terrorist camps and military headquarters and puts a boot in their butt, and then almost immediately backs off because of the united nations.

Then, the months and months go by and many hundreds of Israeli deaths later... Israel is still being told to concede not only land, but to turn the other cheek and just let suicide bombers kill their civilians without reaction. The crazy part is, they even try that nonsense. And it doesn't work, because these groups attacking Israel don't want concessions. They want Israel to be destroyed, period.

Observers on all sides agree that Israeli attacks have killed 4-5 times as many Palestinian civillians than Palestinian attacks have killed Israeli.


Repeatedly Israel has offered concessions, including most of the land they wanted and a recognized Palestinian state, to which Palestine has spat on their offer and shouted death to Israel. If such things were happening on the border of the United States and Mexico, I think the reaction would be easy to predict... invasion and installation of a pro-USA puppet regime, and constant patrols of the former USA-mexico border by the United States military. I don't believe any civilized nation on Earth would seriously accept the idea that they simply have to put up with being blown up constantly, and to act differently is somehow wrong.

As far as I am concerned, Israel has made real and serious attempts at peace and they bend to the will of the United Nations in all cases except being asked to simply surrender. What puzzles me is that the UN is the reason why there is a freaking state of Israel in the first place, and they are blaming their creation for existing rather than themselves. Meanwhile, (wikipedia) The Hamas charter (or covenant), issued in 1988, calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or nullification of Israel.

And that's who's been elected by the people of Palestine, with a currently and relatively high approval rating among the Palestinian people. In light of everything Hamas stands for, I only care about Palestinians for humanitarian reasons, all of which wouldn't be an issue if they didn't want to obliterate Israel and they accepted an honorable and rational peace accord. My sympathies are only for the actual innocents among them.

Israel has never really offered much more than to withdraw troops from some west bank areas, while holding on to the best land and water in the occupied territories, not allowing free movement for Palestinians, and not allowing Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from Israel to return and claim back their property. They have done an excellent job of making sound like they offer a lot, but in reality, they offer nothing.

Hamas' popularity is mainly down to two factors. The corruption and failiure of the Fatah party. And the significant charitable and support services Hamas have offered over the years. In a country whose infrastructure and economy has been deliberately destroyed by Israel - they have been the only people who have offered food and medical support in the area.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

See my earlier post regarding my views as to the likely continuation of things in their current format.

The basic problem with Israeli concessions, Pizzaguy, is that the water resources and arable land do NOT carve up into anything like a continguous/ratio-legal territory. The "historical" boundaries of Israel were a response to these geographic limitations and it will be difficult at best two have two "states" there. The ugly truth is that there is room for only one state entity in the area bounded by the Jordan, the Litani, and Sainai.

So, until the two cultures can reach a degree of raprochement that lets them truly share power at least as well as the Flemish and the Wallonians, the endlessly festering sore that is Israel/Palestine will continue as is.

[Aemilius Paulus]

On the Samson Option thingie. I believe the execution of such a suicidal attack would have a great backlash against Jews worldwide.

For the Israeli Jews, Samson Option is Masada. The Jewish State's destruction is viewed as the end of Jews, giving them license to do anything. Consequences are irrelevant.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

For the Israeli Jews, Samson Option is Masada. The Jewish State's destruction is viewed as the end of Jews, giving them license to do anything. Consequences are irrelevant.

See, that's actually really interesting; because it's total nonsense. There were Jews before Israel and there will be Jews after, (I'm inclined to think there will be an "after" in my lifetime, the way things are going).

[Hooahguy]

well of course there will be jews after israel. they either will be living in other countries, that is, if they survive the international backlash if the sampson optio did happen, or there will be people who are jews but dont know it/dont practice it.

[Aemilius Paulus]

See, that's actually really interesting; because it's total nonsense..
Exactly. Pure egoism. I doubt the Israeli generals would care though, as revenge does blind humans. But this is the essence of an ultra-effective deterrent.

[Hooahguy]

has anyone seen the Endwar commercial where that general calls down a huge airstrike on himself (look at 1:48), (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCqO9tTOCQY) but also destroys all the enemy armies around him? thats what i kinda envsion it as.

[KarlXII]

has anyone seen the Endwar commercial where that general calls down a huge airstrike on himself (look at 1:48), (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCqO9tTOCQY) but also destroys all the enemy armies around him? thats what i kinda envsion it as.

I only wish war were that poetic.

[Tribesman]

What a bollox thread
Go no further than the 3rd post and you can see why it is pure bollox.

like 100 trucks a day.

100 trucks a day??????
Get real Hooah how many people are in that concentration camp?
How many trucks are the recomended minimum for basic sustenance of that population?
Ultra zionists may be in favour of being shut off from the outside world in ghettos but that is no excuse to forcibly impose it on others.

[Hooahguy]

so you are denying the observations of a major news network?
stop it tribesman you are wasting all of our time.

[KarlXII]

Ultra zionists may be in favour of being shut off from the outside world in ghettos but that is no excuse to forcibly impose it on others.

:inquisitive:

[Tribesman]

stop it tribesman you are wasting all of our time.

I asked a clear question , answer it.
How many trucks are needed every day for the basic sustenance of the population.
Come on Hooah you threw in the 100 trucks figure , now face the reality

Karl look up the history of zionism and their pproach to ghettos

[KarlXII]

I
Karl look up the history of zionism and their pproach to ghettos

Honestly, you have me there. I do not know official Zionist policy in regards to ghettos, of any sort. Please enlighten me.

Who are these ultra-zionists anyway?

[Hooahguy]

oh tribsey, you need to read. or maybe because the article isnt hosted anymore you cant read it. :idea2:

but i will agree that 100 is a woefully small number. israel needs to ease its restrictions. big time.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I asked a clear question , answer it.
How many trucks are needed every day for the basic sustenance of the population.
Come on Hooah you threw in the 100 trucks figure , now face the reality

Tribesman is right, Hooah. Palestine, namely the Gaza strip ranks on the top ten of the most densely populated regions on Earth. Territories under the Palestinian Authority, meaning both West Bank and Gaza are #14, with 4,018,332 people total making it 667 per square kilometre. Gaza Strip has 1,551,859 people according to a July 2009 estimate based on the previous censuses, with an area of 360 square km., creating a mind-boggling density of 4,311 people per square kilometre. It is sixth on the highest population density in the world for an autonomous region/fully independent nation.

Yet it is a lifeless piece of desert with basically no water or vegetation. Or industry. No economy. If there ever was anything, it was bombed and shelled out of existence. And you tell me 100 fluffing lorries will deliver all the fluffing crap they need? That many people? One hundred seems like not enough for basic food-water amenities, let alone anything else, such as clothing, petrol, gas, hygiene/medical supplies, building material, etc, etc. I am not speaking of any real consumer products either... In the essence, it is a concentration camp. And please, no need to shove the Hitler :daisy:, as the Nazi definition of a concentration camp was indeed different and I certainly am not referring to it.

EDIT: All numbers come from CIA World Factbook. And sorry, Hooah, I did not yet see your previous post.

[Tribesman]

oh tribsey, you need to read. or maybe because the article isnt hosted anymore you cant read it.
The article is still there, the issue was your comment.
You can go back to that time frame if you like , somedays they would let 120 or even 140 trucks through in a day.....how many are needed a day?
How many days in any particular week are none let through at all?
How many times are none let through for weeks on end?
100 trucks is bugger all , even if it was every day it is bugger all.
So........How many trucks are needed a day for the basic sustenance of the population?
If you want a contrevertial comparisson what were the minimal productive levels of sustenance for the slave workers for example who mined out the caves for the V2 production facilities?


Honestly, you have me there. I do not know official Zionist policy in regards to ghettos
Sorry you have to go back to the discussions at the zionist councils(not the protocols bull)if you relate that to the acceptableness of the enclaves of the chosen ones then you can se why the ghetoisation of the non chosen is entirly acceptable , especially given the recent political and demographic changes in both the knesset and the occupied territories.

[Hooahguy]

no tribseman, i never said 100 was enough. i just said they were letting in more than usual.

[Tribesman]

no tribseman, i never said 100 was enough. i just said they were letting in more than usual.
So they are starving the inhabitants of the ghetto a little less than usual ?

[Aemilius Paulus]

So they are starving the inhabitants of the ghetto a little less than usual ?
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

If I had space in my sig, I would siggie this. But your quote alone loses its charm when one does not see the preceding Hooah's post.

[Idaho]

Israel keeps hoping that the Palestinians will just listen to Israeli propaganda and accept that they are really "Trans-Jordanians" and will go away and let Israel have all the land and resources from the occuppied territories.

It is also hoping that the Arabs who are citizens of Israel will take the hint and leave too:

BBC - Israel to ban ceremonies marking ethnic cleansing (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8073752.stm)

Jerusalem Post - Opposing discrimination against Isreali-Arabs is contraversial (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1226404714904&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull)

Guardian - Arab Israeli parties blocked from contesting elections (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/israel-general-election)

It's an apartheid state.

[Hooahguy]

so answer me this, Idaho:
in an apartheid state, on eof the principle things that are banned from a people is the right to vote. are arab-israelies not allowed to vote?

[CountArach]

so answer me this, Idaho:
in an apartheid state, on eof the principle things that are banned from a people is the right to vote. are arab-israelies not allowed to vote?
Definition of Apartheid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Convention_on_the_Suppression_and_Punishment_of_the_Crime_of_Apartheid#ICSPCA_definiti on_of_the_crime_of_apartheid):

For the purpose of the present Convention, the term 'the crime of apartheid', which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practiced in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:

1. Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person

1. By murder of members of a racial group or groups;
2. By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;
3. By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;
2. Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;
3. Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognised trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;
4. Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;
5. Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;
6. Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.
Or the ICC Defitinition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Convention_on_the_Suppression_and_Punishment_of_the_Crime_of_Apartheid#ICC_definition_ of_the_crime_of_apartheid):

The 'crime of apartheid' means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.

[Idaho]

so answer me this, Idaho:
in an apartheid state, on eof the principle things that are banned from a people is the right to vote. are arab-israelies not allowed to vote?

I don't think that is the definition of apartheid. But seeing as you want to take it down that track, I've not heard of any Palestinians given the right to vote in the government that controls and occupies their daily lives.

[Hooahguy]

I don't think that is the definition of apartheid. But seeing as you want to take it down that track, I've not heard of any Palestinians given the right to vote in the government that controls and occupies their daily lives.
so explain how there there are multiple arab political parties in israel. anwer: israeli arabs can vote.
also, palestinians arent israeli citizens. why should they vote.

you are so devoid of reason i cannot hold a debate with a person who is filled with such propaganda.

[CountArach]

you are so devoid of reason i cannot hold a debate with a person who is filled with such propaganda.
By what definition of Apartheid does the relevance of being able to vote have sole bearing?

[Hooahguy]

nevermind

[Husar]

also, palestinians arent israeli citizens. why should they vote.

He already said that, because the israeli state is the state that de facto has control over their lives.

[Idaho]

so explain how there there are multiple arab political parties in israel. anwer: israeli arabs can vote.
also, palestinians arent israeli citizens. why should they vote.

you are so devoid of reason i cannot hold a debate with a person who is filled with such propaganda.

I can assure you I am perfectly reasonable.

I know they aren't Israeli citizens. They are also not allowed to become Israeli citizens. All this despite Israel seemingly happy to control their land, and even build on it and claim it as Israel.

[Hooahguy]

well technically its occupied territory, so they kinda do own part of it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

well technically its occupied territory, so they kinda do own part of it.
No they, "kinda", don't, because occupation is not the same as ownership. Leaving all else aside, America never claimed to own any of Iraq even when there was no Iraqi government.

[drone]

"Own" is the wrong word when talking about occupied territory. Replace with "are responsible for".

[Idaho]

"Own" is the wrong word when talking about occupied territory. Replace with "are responsible for".

I think it's an entirely accurate word to describe Israeli attitude to the occupied territories. They have all the rights (to land, to control the people, to the resources (water), and yet none of the responsibilities; to actually allow the people to determine their own existence, to come and go as they please.

[Hooahguy]

um, but if im not mistaken, israel has martial law or something like that over the west bank. and the whole "come and go" thing is a problem because when they could do that suicide bombers also came in. hence the fence.

[Aemilius Paulus]

um, but if im not mistaken, israel has martial law or something like that over the west bank. and the whole "come and go" thing is a problem because when they could do that suicide bombers also came in. hence the fence.
Yeah, that is a valid consideration. As I as well as other said earlier, Israel, if it wishes peace, needs to turn the other cheek and literally pull off a Ghandi while Hamas and Fatah kill a bunch of Israelis. After some time, Palestinians will give up and sober up.

But, of course, no sane person would do that. No sane government, as you rightly pointed out, Hooah, would do that, as their approval rating will be expressed in negative percentages... Some things are simply too idealistic and naive for our Earth. Yet that is the only solution I see, short of time, which often heals things. But Palestine and Israel are so close, that only new wounds will open up...

[rory_20_uk]

Probably not to the same degree, but Northern Ireland was sorted out at least in part by not reacting to each and every bomb blast with further violence.

~:smoking:

[Aemilius Paulus]

Probably not to the same degree, but Northern Ireland was sorted out at least in part by not reacting to each and every bomb blast with further violence.

~:smoking:
Yes, usually it works two ways: be a Ghandi and ignore it, taking the hits, or be a Charlemagne and slaughter 4,500 men in retribution. Either ways work, it is just that the former one your country will not swallow and the latter one the world will not tolerate...

[tibilicus]

Another Israel thread which descends into an argument. I did not see this coming..


I think I made my views clear on anything Israel/Palestine related in a previous thread.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Another Israel thread which descends into an argument. I did not see this coming..
Is that not what a thread is for :inquisitive:? To be a ground for a debate/argument??

[Hooahguy]

Is that not what a thread is for :inquisitive:? To be a ground for a debate/argument??
well if the past means anything, threads on this topic usually turns into slinging mud at each other. kudos to all that we have managed to keep it civil. :bow:

I agree. SF

[Aemilius Paulus]

well if the past means anything, threads on this topic usually turns into slinging mud at each other. kudos to all that we have managed to keep it civil. :bow:
I know right... Weird how it happened, but this thread is quite clean... :dizzy2:

Meh, just wait a day or two, and it will be locked :wink::laugh4::laugh4:

[Vladimir]

Is that not what a thread is for :inquisitive:? To be a ground for a debate/argument??

It is for discussion. Argument results in a gaudy exchange of smileys.

[Aemilius Paulus]

It is for discussion. Argument results in a gaudy exchange of smileys.
Try to have a "discussion", especially one of a political anture without a debate - impossible.

[Banquo's Ghost]

It is for discussion. Argument results in a gaudy exchange of smileys.


Try to have a "discussion", especially one of a political anture without a debate - impossible.

I'm sorry, is this the five minute argument (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM) or the full half hour?

:focus:

[Jolt]

Well, provided that Israel didn't (need to) care about a world-wide public opinion, they could (Quite possibly would) very well carpet bomb Gaza into a nice stone quarry and ethnic cleanse West Bank, therefore freeing up the space for the zionist expansion and ending this nasty problem called the Palestinians. But alas for them! The same "public opinion" which "forced" the governments to grant land to Jews in Palestine prevents the same Jews from fully populating it!