New Computer Help

[Decker]

Hi guys,

I am looking for a new computer for school and am having difficulty in narrowing down any good ones.
(I have trouble with computer terms so bear with me)

-What I mainly look for is lots of memory like the 512MB or 4-6GB/Ghz or whatever it's labeled.

-Also the Vista Home Premium 64-bit. I'm not sure if that's the right one so suggestions would be nice :yes:

A good graphics card for games and other such things when I'm bored... The Nvidia and Gforce always pop up but I have no idea how to tell which is better :no:

A cd/dvd rewrite or just some kinda dvd player thingy besides the cd-rom drive

I know I've left other stuff out but those are the main things I am currently looking for... or close to it.

Here are some I already found. I prefer HP since that's the only comp I've had for the past....almost 6-8 years... or so. So these are just some ideas. Any help and clearification on the terms or cards, or durability would be a great help :2thumbsup:

HP - Pavilion Desktop with AMD Phenom™ X4 Quad-Core Processor (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9384285&type=product&id=1218096181010)
HP Pavilion A6750F Desktop PC (2.3 GHz AMD Phenom X4 9650 Quad-Core Processor, 8 GB RAM, 750 GB Hard Drive, DVD Drive, Vista Premium) (http://www.amazon.com/Pavilion-A6750F-Desktop-Quad-Core-Processor/dp/B001N2MZZM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=pc&qid=1247471683&sr=1-1)
HP - Pavilion Desktop with AMD Phenom™ X4 9550 Quad-Core Processor (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9249495&type=product&id=1218068107386)
Systemax Ascent KMA4000 Desktop Computer - AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ / genuine Windows® Vista Home Premium / 3GB DDR2 / 320GB HDD / DVD-RW (http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4395999&Sku=SYX-2007)

I'm still looking around, so any help or advice about what I should look-out for will be greatly appreciated ~:)

Thanks again for any help,
Decker

[Beskar]

Windows 7, not Vista, it comes out soon anyway. :beam:

[pevergreen]

Alright, excuse my ignorance, but can you tell me what Country you live in Decker?

I am very wary of prebuilt computers from HP and Dell thesedays.

Two sites which get tossed around here a lot because of how good they are: http://www.ibuypower.com/ and www.newegg.com

I like using ibuypower to see what my system will look like (for cases) and the decent choice of stuff they have.

Im saying about 650 US is the price you want?

For $670 off ibuypower you could get:
Case ( iBUYPOWER Vantage Gaming Tower Case - w/ Halo 2 Side Window )
Processor ( Intel Core 2 Duo Processor E7400 (2x 2.80GHz/3MB L2 Cache/1066FSB) )
Motherboard ( Gigabyte GA-EP45T-UD3LR Intel P45 Chipset w/7.1 Sound, Gb LAN, S-ATA Raid, USB 2.0, PCI-E MB )
Memory ( 4 GB [2 GB X2] DDR3-1333 Memory Module - Corsair or Major Brand )
Video Card ( NVIDIA GeForce 9800GT PCI-Express x16 - 512MB - Single Card )
Case Lighting ( None )
Power Supply ( 600 Watt -- Power Supply - SLI Ready )
Processor Cooling ( Certified CPU Fan and Heatsink )
Hard Drive ( 1 TB HARD DRIVE - [Serial-ATA-II, 3Gb, 7200 RPM, 16M Cache] )
2nd Hard Drive ( None )
2nd Optical Drive ( None )
Optical Drive ( [** Special !!! ***] LG 22X Dual Format/Double Layer DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW Drive - Black )
External Hard Drives [USB 2.0/eSATA] ( None )
Sound Card ( 3D Premium Surround Sound Onboard )
Speaker System ( None )
Network Card ( Onboard LAN Network (Gb or 10/100) )
Floppy Drive ( None )
Monitor ( None )
Operating System ( None- Pre-formatted Hard Drive Only )
Warranty ( Standard Warranty Service - Standard 3-Year Limited Warranty + Lifetime Technical Support )
Rush Service ( Rush Service Fee (not shipping fee) - No Rush Service, Estimate Ship Out in 5~10 Business Days )
USB 2.0 Accessories ( Built-in USB 2.0 Ports )
Video Camera ( None )
Power Protection ( None )
Headset ( None )
Meter Display ( None )
Flash Media Reader/Writer ( None )
MP3/MP4 Player ( None )
USB Flash Drive ( None )
2nd Monitor ( None )
iBUYPOWER Labs - Noise Reduction ( None )
iBUYPOWER Labs - Internal Expansion ( None )
This will probably be more expensive (not by much) than a prebuilt of the same specs, but I would go with it. Buying the individual componants and building it yourself is always cheaper, but I'm guessing thats not an option :tongue: (Don't worry, it wasnt an option for me either until 5 months ago, I did a weeks work in an IT shop, was shown how to build a computer)


I'll try and explain a bit about the computer, feel free to correct me if I get stuff wrong guys (i should be working etc)

Your CPU has a clock speed (default speed set by the manufactor) that is measured in GHz. A single core CPU does 1-2 things at a time (threads). A program says to the CPU "Do this" a thread is used to do the calculation, which the program uses the result of and so forth. So, more cores, which means more threads, is good, especially when a program uses multi/hyper threading, which (as i understand it) is doing more than one thing at once (where as others would do one thing at a time, but its so fast we wouldnt notice normally anyway).

The Random Access Memory stores pieces of data off your Hard Drive in a faster location. Like you using a book to grab info for your test the next day. If you keep putting the book away, its slower to get it, open it instead of leaving it open in front of you. So the more memory you have, the more data you can store to get to it faster. The speed of the memory is also important, but thats another issue. The number after it is important as well (Someone may say that they have 2 gigabytes of DDR2 RAM. That is inferior to 2 gigabytes of DDR3 ram)

Your graphics card is like another CPU, it helps out the CPU by taking all the physics and graphics work, and doing it itself. It uses its own Memory with a different number than normal RAM (GDDR5 is the best).

The two major companies that manufacture CPU's are Intel and AMD Athalon. Intel have the upper hand in the CPU area right now.

For Graphics Cards, Nvidea and AMD are the two, Nvidea have the most power card out there, but AMD seems to have the better price in the mid-low end of scale. For the most part it is just personal choice, with the added fact that most games prefer Nvidea and the drivers with it.

I'm biased, as I'm only familar with the Intel and Nvidea side of things, but I think they are much better. :smug: And for the most part they are. :grin2:

Sorry if I don't make much sense, let me know and I'll explain better.

[Hooahguy]

HP - Pavilion Desktop with AMD Phenom™ X4 Quad-Core Processor (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9384285&type=product&id=1218096181010)
thats an ok computer, but its video card isnt so good for gaming. i mean, its only 256, and most newer games now will require 256 as the minimum.
not good for gaming, but it at least has PCI-e slots to upgrade to a better card.

but other than that, they look fine.

HP Pavilion A6750F Desktop PC (2.3 GHz AMD Phenom X4 9650 Quad-Core Processor, 8 GB RAM, 750 GB Hard Drive, DVD Drive, Vista Premium) (http://www.amazon.com/Pavilion-A6750F-Desktop-Quad-Core-Processor/dp/B001N2MZZM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=pc&qid=1247471683&sr=1-1)
also, good, but not so great for gaming.


HP - Pavilion Desktop with AMD Phenom™ X4 9550 Quad-Core Processor (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9249495&type=product&id=1218068107386)
same as before.....


Systemax Ascent KMA4000 Desktop Computer - AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ / genuine Windows® Vista Home Premium / 3GB DDR2 / 320GB HDD / DVD-RW (http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4395999&Sku=SYX-2007)

pretty bad graphics card, no offense.

[Husar]

I'm biased, as I'm only familar with the Intel and Nvidea side of things, but I think they are much better. :smug: And for the most part they are. :grin2:

They are on top, in the lower price regions you can usually find competition products that are cheaper and better and since we seem to be talking about around 650$ here, looking into AMD CPUs might actually be a very good idea, I know I saved around 100 EUR for my PC by going with a Phenom II.

Graphics cards are dirt cheap now (and you get all sorts of silly problems due to cheap materials for free) so the 9800GT you went for sounds like a good idea for someone who doesn't want a top system, yet wants to play games now and then.

The systems you posted Decker, don't look all that good to me, some of them even have first generation Phenoms, AFAIK the Phenom II is quite superior to the first ones.

[Hooahguy]

i actually heard that the 8800 is beter than the 9 series. is that true?

[Husar]

i actually heard that the 8800 is beter than the 9 series. is that true?

No, the 9800GT is just a renamed 8800GT though. The other 9x00 cards are slightly better than their 8x00 predecessors IIRC, the 9600GT being a lot faster than the 8600GT etc.
An 8800GTX would of course be faster than a 9600GT since the GTX is a top card of it's generation and the 9600GT is a mainstream (mediocre) card of it's generation. But an 8800GTX does not beat a 9800GTX (which has now been renamed to GTS 250 or 260 or something just to confuse people even more).

[Decker]

Pevergreen- I live in the States... And thanks very much for your input :2thumbsup: I'm still rereading your post to make sure I understand anything :dizzy2: I'll be look at Intel's as well... almost forgot about them :sweatdrop:

Hooahguy- Thanks for your input as well... No offenses taken, just needing help to weed out the best possible choices :juggle2:

Husar- I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at :inquisitive:

Anyways, I just need something with decent enough graphics for a few games. Mainly M2TW and SotS(as examples), and maybe 1 or 2 others for rotation.

Next question... what is this DDR mean and the GDDR, not to mention GT and GTX??

[Beskar]

Next question... what is this DDR mean and the GDDR, not to mention GT and GTX??

DDR: Double Data Rate

GDDR: Graphics Double Data Rate

GT and GTX are simply model letters for the Nvidia graphics card range, the GTX are better than GT.

[Hooahguy]

try to find an outlet that sells computers that you can customize before you buy. i would suggest dell, but now i know better.

[Beskar]

I don't know any in the USA, but overclockers.co.uk is rather good in the UK, if you know what you are doing with computers as all they basically do is assemble it and ship it you with the OS installed (de facto due to OEM status)

[Husar]

Husar- I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at :inquisitive

Two things:
1. Intel has overall the faster CPUs but in your price range I'd seriously look at AMDs, they might just offer the faster ones for a lower price, but try to look at Phenom IIs, not the older Phenoms.

2. A 9800GT is not expensive and perfectly fine for M2TW.

edit: Just went to ibuypower and made the following system:

Case: Nzxt Alpha Gaming Tower Case Black
Processor: AMD Phenom™ II X2 550 Black Edition Dual-Core CPU w/ HyperTransport Technology AM3 & AM2+ support
Memory: 4 GB [2 GB X2] DDR3-1333 Memory Module-Corsair or Major Brand
Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce 9800GT PCI-Express x16 - 512MB Single Card
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-MA770T-UD3P AM3 DDR3 AMD 770 Chipset w/7.1 Sound, Gb LAN, S-ATA Raid, USB 2.0, PCI-E MB
Power Supply: 450 Watt -- Standard Power Supply
Hard Drive: 320 GB HARD DRIVE-[Serial-ATA-II, 3Gb, 7200 RPM, 16M Cache]
Optical Drive: [** Special !!! ***] LG 22X Dual Format/Double Layer DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW Drive-Black

All that without mouse and monitor etc. for 587$.
I used this (http://www.ibuypower.com/Store/Configurators.aspx?mid=422#PageTop) as a base and changed some components, replaced the crossfire(two graphicscards) by a simpler, cheaper one etc. since you prolly don't want crossfire, especially not with an NVidia card.
How the Phenim II dual core performs can be seen here (http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/phenom-athlon-ii-x2_9.html#sect0). Should be more than enough for your purposes.
I thought about putting in a somewhat more expensive power supply, might be worth considering as they have become relatively important over time and can cause a few problems, would cost quite a bit more but that's up to you(as everything, else, just suggesting here).

[Decker]

Beskar- Thanks a lot... That definitely clears up a lot for me :2thumbsup:

Hooahguy- I'm guessing customization is the best way to go nowadays by the looks of the posts :inquisitive: I'll check out Intel nonetheless...

Husar- Thanks for the clarifications and the example you used... I'm better understanding this stuff now :yes:

[pevergreen]

Is the power supply enough?

[Husar]

Is the power supply enough?

I guess it has enough power but like I said above, a power supply from a good brand might help anyway.
I do however not know which brands are really good and it can depend on luck. The store where I bought my PC replaced the first power supply with a different one because with the first my motherboard used to make beeping sounds when idle. the new one has less Watts but the system used to run fine. (until (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2296973&postcount=15))

Power supplies are a bit of a science for themselves sometimes but I would hope that ibuypower makes sure the system runs fine with the components you chose.

[pevergreen]

I dont know that it does...

I would throw in another 100W at least.

But I'm still new to this whole thing, and power supplies are the thing I know least about.

[Husar]

Well, I'm not an expert about power supplies but afaik most of them are best between around 50 to 80% of their output or something, then you have different efficiency curves, meaning they may be more efficient at 60% or whatever. I'm sure Xiahou, Whacker, Caravel could say more about it than I can.
Going for one that has 1000Watts when you just want an office PC is certainly a good way to waste money though.

My old 420W PSU was apparently enough for a Core3Duo E6600 and a 7950GT, but like I said, going for one from a good brand might be a good idea, too bad that I don'rt really know which brands are actually good. ~D

[Hooahguy]

Hooahguy- I'm guessing customization is the best way to go nowadays by the looks of the posts :inquisitive: I'll check out Intel nonetheless...

absolutely. by customizing it, you can tweak it to your liking, like i did, and you can take away a few things, which will save money. for me, i took away bluetooth and the webcam, which saved me about $100.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Power supplies must be bought slightly more powerful than strictly required because of the fact that various components wear out a bit (rather: some of their components build up a charge and others deform due to heat expansion both of which dilute the performance which means that the actual power they can deliver will degrade over time).

How much "over budget" you should go depends on how much you will use the system for (i.e. 24x7 systems require more margins than the occasional check-my-e-mail variety; and gaming machines need more than the occasional check-my-e-mail variety because the average load will be higher, which means that there will be more `wear'). A good -non generic- power supply typically has a nice "80" badge stuck on top of it, which says it has better than 80% efficiency; excellent ones will push well beyond that (e.g. 97%) but they are fairly expensive (you pay a premium for the power efficiency).

There are numerous PSU (Power Supply Unit) calculators out there; one I like in particular is this one: http://web.aanet.com.au/~SnooP/psucalc.php

Compare that to various others (usually a manufacturer will have a -biased?- one on its site) and you should get a good idea of what you need.

EDIT: Note that a power supply that is but slightly too weak will usually result in a (very) unstable system. You may experience random crashes; components may not work at all; loss of data because the system powers off the harddisk due to power failures. On top of that you are trashing the PSU which means its life time will be much more limited as a result.

EDIT2: Note if you are putting together the equipment yourself you may want to consider a modular power supply. Reason being a non-modular supply looks like a box with a boat load of wires sticking out of it at the back, whereas a modular supply is a box with a boat load of sockets at the back and a bunch of cables. This means you will have the option to only connect those cables you actually need which is less confusing and makes for an easier time when you will eventually have to force/route the cables in a more tidy fashion. (Otherwise they will very likely obstruct air flow towards fans and heat sinks as well as cover other sockets on your mother board; none of which is desirable.)

[Decker]

First off, I'd like to thank everyone's input. It's definitely helping with understanding what I'm looking at.

Here is a computer I found (I'm still snooping around for one).
HP Pavilion p6120t Desktop & DJ6988 Printer Bundle Dual-Core E5200 2.5GHz
LightScribe 16x DVD±R/RW Drive
Windows® Vista Home Premium (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11480892&search=HP0706&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Mo=11&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&N=5000043&whse=BC&ViewAll=999&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=HP0706&Ntt=HP0706&cm_mmc=BCEmail_433B2B-_-FOCUS-_-19-_-SelectHP&No=6&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&Sp=S&s=1)

In the specs a few things caught my eye that left me baffled:

In:
Processor & Memory:
2MB L2 cache What does the L2 Cache mean?

And here:
Expandability (Total Slots):

* Total memory slots: 2 DIMMS
* 1 x PCIe x16
* 2 x PCIe x1
* 1 x PCI
I have no idea what DIMMS are or PCIe or PCI for that matter mean...

[pevergreen]

The memory slots (I think) are how many sticks of RAM the motherboardd will take. So, in this case, two sticks. (I'm not entirely sure though)

PCI and the rest of those slots are for graphics cards, wireless cards, network cards and soundcards etc.

Most grahpics cards are PCIe (express) x16. You should post a picture of the motherboard (if you can) , because quite often a slot or two can't actually fit anything in it, as there are componants around it.

[Hooahguy]

thats a good bargain. id get it, for the very reason that you can get a supreb PCIe card to put in that extra slot.
and it had 4 gb of ram, which is excellent, and a nice hard drive.

[Decker]

Yeah I was thinking the same Hooahguy.

And so as I see it... It allows for me to had in new graphics cards. That would be something like Nvidia ect... right?

[Husar]

I disagree.

It comes without a useful graphics card and including a pretty bad monitor. Say what you want but an 18" widescreen is notebook material at best. A mainboard with only two DIMM(RAM) slots as pever correctly analyzed sounds really cheap to me, normally even the cheaper mainboards have at least four.
The L2 Cache is Level 2 Cache, CPUs have their own little memory where they can store commands etc. and 2MB isn't a whole lot, the better ones have more, or a L3 cache with more.

Oh and they include a printer but it might be interesting to know that the cheapest printers often have the most expensive cartridges, similar to how consoles have the more expensive games.

All in all I'm not sure that's a really good offer you found there, looks a bit like they put in the very cheapest cheaply made stuff they could find and put that on offer with a few nice numbers to make it look really good, you should go for a 22" monitor anyway unless you want to keep your old one. ~;)

[Hooahguy]

why would anyone want a 22" monitor? not all games, especially older ones, support wide screen.
and nvidia makes the best graphics cards. if you had two PCIe slots id recommend dual video cards.

[Decker]

Found this, it's the only desktop in the adds:
HP with Intel Duel Core Processor E3600 with 8GB RAM, 1TB, & 23'' wide screen monitor (http://staples.shoplocal.com/staples/default.aspx?action=entryflash&adref=weekly%20deals%20center)

I went in to check it out and came out trying to decide with the previous comp I posted or this one.

Best thing is is that I understood most of the lingo the sales guy was using. :balloon2::balloon2::balloon2: to everyone for helping with that area! :2thumbsup:

[pevergreen]

I can't see anything. :cry:

It wants me to put in a city or state or zip code, and nothing I put in works.

But the RAM is a bit much. 8GB? I'd go with 4, and try to get a better processor with the money.

Does it come with a graphics card?

[Decker]

Really =/

Strange :inquisitive:

And you think so on the RAM??

And believe it was some standard one... nothing special :no:

[pevergreen]

Well the rule of thumb is, unless you are getting a 64 bit Operating System (unless you know about it, you probably have the normal 32 bit) the computer can really only handle 4gb of ram. So I could put 12gb in, but the computer can still only handle 4.

[Husar]

why would anyone want a 22" monitor? not all games, especially older ones, support wide screen.
The 18.5" that was included was a widescreen as well...
And whether games do or don't support widescreen is completely irrelevant and no reason to go for outdated hardware.


and nvidia makes the best graphics cards. if you had two PCIe slots id recommend dual video cards.
Dual video cards are a waste of money, most of the time a single video card of the next generation will produce higher framerates and cost less, then you get some problems, it's really not supported by all games etc. etc. Overall just something for freaks with too much money or people who want to use them for calculations. Just my opinion but I know a lot of people who agree.

And Decker, that processor does not sound too good, you should be looking for a 7xxx or 8xxx processor if you want to go Intel, for AMD it would be a Phenom II. Why you seem to insist on HP is a mystery to me.
Oh and that staples link wants me to enter an address and won't let me access the page.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The 18.5" that was included was a widescreen as well...
And whether games do or don't support widescreen is completely irrelevant and no reason to go for outdated hardware.

Exactly. A wide screen monitor is desirable for anything from viewing 2 documents next to each other (and then a 22in or 24in monitor is really sweet) to watching movies. Games usually can make use of it if you tweak resolution settings.


Dual video cards are a waste of money, most of the time a single video card of the next generation will produce higher framerates and cost less, then you get some problems, it's really not supported by all games etc. etc. Overall just something for freaks with too much money or people who want to use them for calculations. Just my opinion but I know a lot of people who agree.

Quite. First of all dual video cards get exactly as much bandwidth as single video cards (still one physical slot), which is more of a bottle neck than the actual speed of the video card. Secondly two single video cards cost slightly more, but can work with double the bandwidth (two phyiscally different slots, you see) and usually are more efficient than double video cards anyways. But Hussar is quite right it is no use buying a double video card for games because of the widely different loads games produce (some benefit much more from a good CPU than from a top-of-the-line video card, especially strategy games).

You can get a HD4870 for $100,- to $150,- wich outperforms many "lesser" double video cards for all but very, very high resolutions (which are way beyond your monitor anyways).


And Decker, that processor does not sound too good, you should be looking for a 7xxx or 8xxx processor if you want to go Intel, for AMD it would be a Phenom II. Why you seem to insist on HP is a mystery to me.
Oh and that staples link wants me to enter an address and won't let me access the page.

I guess he insists on HP because of the bundled monitor.

Just a few notes:
If you intend to purchase upgrades later (say a bigger/better harddisk) or additional RAM you will want to stay away from HP. At least in my experience the haddisk is very difficult to remove, since it is placed in a very awkward position (centered and placed on its side) which requires an annoying supportive structure which means that a large space of the case is rendered useless for anything but cable routing.

A motherboard with 2 lanes for slotting in RAM is not very nice either. Yes you can upgrade to 8GB. Then you are stuck. It is the same story as with dual video cards. Having for instance 4 lanes means double the bandwidth which means that your 8GB of RAM in 4x2GB performs better than your 8GB in 2x4GB.

[pevergreen]

Quite often with those HP and dell computers, if you change any components at all, windows will not activate. I found that out the hard way a week or two ago, when upgrading the processor in the receptionists computer.