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View Full Version : World Politics - Change they can believe in - An end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict



Jolt
07-28-2009, 08:15
I had to read this essay and make my own essay, for my History of International Relations discipline. I must say I was amazed by the article, but of course, it falls short on many real life and practical issues and disputes between Israel and Palestine, but the proposals are great, in my opinion. The article is quite long, but it is worth every letter.


Reviving the Middle East peace process is the worst kind of necessary evil for a U.S. administration: at once very necessary and very evil. It is necessary because the festering dispute between the Israelis and the Palestinians in a volatile, strategically vital region has broad implications for U.S. interests and because the security of Israel is one of the American public's most enduring international concerns. It is evil because it is costly and difficult. The price of engagement is high, the chances for a solution are mixed at best, and all of the available approaches carry significant political risks. A string of poor policy choices by the Bush administration made a bad situation significantly worse. It inflamed passions. It weakened the position of moderate Israelis and Palestinians alike. And it reduced the U.S. government's credibility as a broker.

Even without the damaging aftermath of eight misspent years, the Israeli-Palestinian dispute will not be easily settled. Many people have tried to end it; all have failed. Direct negotiations between Arabs and Jews after World War I foundered. The British tried to square the circle of competing Palestinian and Jewish aspirations from the time of the 1917 Balfour Declaration until the ignominious collapse of their mandate in 1948. Since then, the United Nations, the United States, and the international community have struggled with the problem without managing to solve it. No issue in international affairs has taxed the ingenuity of so many leaders or captured so much attention from around the world. Winston Churchill failed to solve it; the "wise men" who built NATO and the Marshall Plan handed it down, still festering, to future generations. Henry Kissinger had to content himself with incremental progress. The Soviet Union crumbled on Ronald Reagan's watch, but the Israeli-Palestinian dispute survived him. Bill Clinton devoted much of his tenure to picking at this Gordian knot. He failed. George W. Bush failed at everything he tried. This is a dispute that deserves respect; old, inflamed, and complex, it does not suffer quick fixes.

As Kissinger has famously observed, academic politics are so bitter because the stakes are so small. In one sense, this is true of the Israeli-Palestinian dispute as well: little land is involved. The Palestine of the British mandate, today divided into Israel proper and the occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank, was the size of New Jersey. In 1919, its total population was estimated at 651,000. Today, the territory counts about 5.4 million Jews and about 5.2 million Arabs. Two diasporas in other parts of the world -- some 7.7 million Jews and 5.2 million Palestinians -- believe that they, too, are entitled to live there.

But the conflict is about more than land; many people on both sides feel profoundly that a compromise would be morally wrong. A significant minority of Israelis not only retain a fervent attachment to the land that makes up the Eretz Yisrael of the Bible but also believe that to settle and possess it is to fulfill a divine decree. For these Jews, it is a sin to surrender land that God has given them. Although most Israelis do not share this belief with dogmatic rigor, they would be reluctant to obstruct the path of those seeking to redeem the Promised Land.

It may be difficult for outsiders to understand the Palestinians' yearning for the villages and landscapes lost during the birth of Israel in 1948. The sentiment is much more than nostalgia. The Palestinians' national identity took shape in the course of their struggle with Zionism, and the mass displacement of Palestinians resulting from Israel's War of Independence, or the nakba ("catastrophe" in Arabic), was the fiery crucible out of which the modern Palestinian consciousness emerged. The dispossessed Palestinians, especially refugees living in camps, are seen as the bearers of the most authentic form of Palestinian identity. The unconditional right of Palestinians to return to the land and homes lost in the nakba is the nation's central demand. For many, although by no means all, Palestinians, to give up the right of return would be to betray their people. Even those who do not see this claim as an indispensable goal of the national movement are uneasy about giving it up.

A TALE OF TWO PEOPLES

The conflict is not just fiendishly hard to resolve; history and culture make it difficult for both the Israelis and the Palestinians to make the necessary choices. The two peoples had very different experiences in the twentieth century, but both have been left with a fractured national consciousness and institutions too weak to make or enforce political decisions.

For the Israelis, determining the relationship between religion, ethnicity, and citizenship is a perpetually difficult question. Is the return of the Jews to their ancestral home a basically secular objective with religious overtones, like the goals of other independence movements among minorities in the Ottoman Empire, including the Greeks and the Armenians? Or is it a fundamentally religious project? Other countries face similar questions, but the issue is particularly acute for Israel given its position as the world's only Jewish state.

Another complication is that although the Jews are an old people, the Israelis are a young one. Jews have come to Israel from very different societies and cultures and from all over the world, bringing very different expectations, and they have established a political society as varied and fragmented as their respective histories. Ashkenazim and Sephardim, Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox, secular socialists and secular liberals, post-Soviet Russians: this diversity -- with the tensions it brings heightened by the pressure of Israel's existential anxieties -- is reflected in the country's political landscape. A predictable combination of weak governments and explosive politics hinders decisive official action: more than most, Israel's leaders must keep looking over their shoulders to gauge public opinion.

Israeli society is also traumatized, both by the attempted extermination of Europe's Jews in the Holocaust and the phenomena associated with the Holocaust: the failure of Jewish assimilation, centuries of persecution before the Enlightenment, the world's ghastly betrayal of desperate refugees from Nazi Germany seeking countries to take them in. Jews arriving in Israel from the Muslim world brought their own history of betrayal, discrimination, and victimization -- culminating in what for many was a flight every bit as frightening and impoverishing as anything the Palestinians experienced. Having gotten to what seemed like the last refuge on earth, they then had to listen to calls for its destruction and endure wave after wave of attack. This is not a people that can easily trust. Nor is it one among which discussions of national security can always be conducted in tones of calm reason.

The situation among the Palestinians is surprisingly similar. From its inception, Palestinian nationalism has shifted uneasily between the religious and the secular. Are the Palestinians a distinct national society of Muslims and Christians? Are they part of the worldwide umma (Muslim community)? Part of a broader Arab nation? Even though the traumatic experiences of the twentieth century gave Palestinians of all political and religious leanings a common identity and history -- perhaps the strongest in the Arab world, outside Egypt -- basic definitional questions continue to haunt their national consciousness.

Historically, Palestine was a complex region with many subcultures, and the gradual transformation of the Levant throughout the nineteenth century accentuated its diversity. Christians, Druze, and Jews amounted to about one-fifth of the population. The cities and the coastal plain were dominated by agriculture, European commercial interests, and the cultural and political ferment of the late Ottoman period. Jerusalem, where Muslims lived as a minority among Christians and Jews, followed its own direction, with notable Arab families -- some of whose names remain prominent in Palestinian politics today -- exercising important leadership in much of the area. Peasant communities were oriented toward smaller towns and regional centers such as Nablus. Everywhere, ancient tribal divisions and family rivalries complicated the picture further.

Palestinian history was turbulent in the twentieth century. The nationalist movement against the British culminated not in independence but in the uprooting of half of Palestine's Arab population. Some of the displaced settled in refugee camps; others moved in with relatives in the countryside, as earlier generations had done during previous periods of political tension or economic recession; others still became refugees within the borders of the new state of Israel. The numbers are disputed, but estimates suggest that about 276,000 refugees fled to the West Bank, between 160,000 and 190,000 went to Gaza, and about 100,000 crossed into Jordan. Another 175,000 or so, mostly from the northern Galilee, are estimated to have fled to Lebanon and Syria.

After this, Palestinian society grew even more complex. From 1948 to 1967, the majority of Palestinians lived under Jordanian rule in the West Bank or Jordan itself, and Gaza was under Egyptian administration. Their economic and social conditions in these areas, as well as in Lebanon and Syria, varied tremendously. In Gaza, virtually everyone was a refugee and impoverished. In the West Bank, refugees were scattered in camps among traditional communities of Palestinians still living on ancestral land. Many of the Jerusalem notables survived with their influence relatively intact, despite losing all their property on the Israeli side of the Green Line. In Jordan and to a lesser extent Syria, Palestinians integrated into their host societies. In Lebanon, they had their ups and downs and now live largely in ghettos with restricted educational opportunities, few economic prospects, and no chance at political participation. Two additional diasporas developed: one, of mostly well-educated Palestinians working as professionals in the Persian Gulf and elsewhere; the other, a smaller group of political and military leaders who later were driven out of Jordan (in 1971) and Lebanon (in 1982) and left Tunisia (in 1994, following the Oslo accords). Partly because of this history, Palestinian society has splintered into many different political, religious, and ideological factions.

In the absence of a state -- or, rather, in the presence of so many different states, none run by Palestinians -- Palestinian political life is chaotic. There is no common educational system and no effective institutions, parliamentary or otherwise, through which consensus can be built and enforced. The tragic division of the Palestinians into a "Hamastan" in Gaza and a "Fatahstan" in the West Bank is only one expression of the nation's splintered politics and institutional brittleness. Palestinians in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria and in the broader diaspora will be essential constituencies when the time comes to enforce the security guarantees Israel will need once a Palestinian state is created. Yet they have no say in the election of the representatives who will negotiate the peace deal on their behalf, and their interests are not necessarily the same as those of the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank.

Like the Jews, the Palestinians experienced the twentieth century as a time of betrayal by the international community. The League of Nations awarded Palestine as a mandate to the United Kingdom under terms that explicitly called for the establishment of a Jewish national home but required no consultation with the people of Palestine. The United Nations authorized the territory's partition in 1947 -- again making fundamental decisions about the future of Palestine over the heads of its inhabitants. Since then, the Palestinians have been exploited at virtually every turn, not least by various Arab leaders.

The twentieth century taught both the Jews and the Palestinians that the international community's grand moral claims are mostly hollow, that great powers are cynical and brutal, that international politics is a blood sport, and that, at the end of the day, a people can depend only on itself. And both survived thanks to dogged persistence, violent struggle, and a refusal to accept defeat. The Jews clawed their way out of the ruins of Europe to build a state and then turned it into a regional superpower despite repeated efforts by others to destroy it. The Palestinians created a national movement in the face of disaster, asserted themselves by armed struggle, defended their independence in the harsh world of Middle East power politics, and succeeded in placing their cause on the international community's agenda. Both peoples trust their own instincts much more than they do the promises of any single power or of all the world's powers together. They distrust each other because they know how tough and even how ruthless each of them had to be to survive. And they both understand, as no others can, the bitterness and the intimacy of the unique situation they share.

WHAT IS TO BE DONE?

The incoming U.S. administration of Barack Obama faces a daunting task. It needs to develop a Middle East peace strategy that makes a clear break with the past, that is politically sustainable at home and abroad, that offers real hope for a final resolution, and that in the meantime can bring benefits to the two peoples, the wider region, and the United States itself. But Washington will have only limited options. American public opinion strongly and consistently favors a pro-Israel orientation for U.S. foreign policy, and Israel's friends in the United States can mobilize broad support on short notice. Decades of intensive diplomacy and scholarship have already delineated the possible solutions to the dispute. The outlines of a settlement -- regarding borders, security, refugees, and water rights -- are reasonably well understood by all parties, and Obama cannot do much to change them. He cannot expand the Holy Land to give each people the territory it wants; he cannot create another Temple Mount, or Noble Sanctuary, to give each side its own holy site; he cannot move the al Aqsa Mosque away from the Western Wall.

Still, Washington can change the way that a peace deal is framed and thus make it more appealing to both sides. The Obama administration needs to accomplish a kind of Copernican shift in perception: looking at the same sun, moon, planets, and stars that others have seen, it must reconceptualize the relations among them. In the past, U.S. peacemakers have had an Israel-centric approach to the negotiating process; the Obama administration needs to put Palestinian politics and Palestinian public opinion at the center of its peacemaking efforts.

This will fall well short of a revolution. The United States' goals, and many of its policies, will not change. Its relationship with Israel will stay strong; if anything, it will deepen. But despite their military weakness and their political factiousness, the Palestinians hold the key to peace in the Middle East. And if the United States hopes to create a more secure and stable environment for Israel, it must sell peace to Israel's foes.

Only clear support for a peace treaty by a solid majority of Palestinians -- in Gaza, the West Bank, and the diaspora -- will bring Israel the security it craves and deserves. When, as will inevitably happen after a deal, armed gangs seek to disrupt the peace, much in the way that Irish ultranationalists continued to fight the British long after Ireland achieved independence, the Palestinian public will have to condemn the violence and support crackdowns by Palestinian authorities. U.S. negotiators during the Clinton administration, assuming that Yasir Arafat, then chair of the Palestine Liberation Organization, controlled Palestinian public opinion, reduced the matter of clinching Palestinian support for peace to getting Arafat's signature on the dotted line. This was a very damaging mistake. Now, the United States must focus on swaying Palestinian public opinion in favor of peace -- especially since current Palestinian leaders have none of Arafat's power or prestige.

This will take work. U.S. diplomacy has for too long overestimated the appeal of a two-state solution among Palestinians and in the broader Arab world. Some polls suggest that a majority of Palestinians in the occupied territories would accept such an outcome -- or, rather, would have accepted it some years ago -- but there has never been much enthusiasm for the proposal. A two-state solution has been even less popular with the diaspora, and today, even some of the proposal's most vocal Palestinian backers, such as the well-respected author and scholar Sari Nusseibeh, are moving away from it.

Not surprisingly, support for the proposal has been strongest in the West Bank and particularly among the relatively prosperous West Bankers and Palestinian Jerusalemites who are not refugees. For such Palestinians, a two-state solution might be a wrenching compromise, but it has its attractions. For those in the camps, and especially those in Gaza, a territory virtually without resources and with few economic prospects under even the most favorable conditions, a two-state solution has fewer charms. The Israelis get security, the Palestinian elite gains power and resources, but impoverished refugees and the diaspora are left out in the cold as new flags fly over the same old camps.

Back in the 1990s, Israeli critics of the Oslo process were fortified by the Palestinians' only partial support for a two-state solution. Would the newly formed Palestinian National Authority have the moral authority, the political will, and the administrative capacity to provide Israel with adequate security against those hard-line rejectionist Palestinians who were sure to repudiate the agreement? In the absence of an effective Palestinian partner, might the agreement -- which called for the withdrawal of Israeli forces and settlers from the West Bank -- undermine Israel's security? Such doubts are still voiced loudly in Israeli politics today, and they continue to complicate the task of any Israeli leader seeking serious negotiations.

But those doubts are not just an obstacle to peace; they indicate a way forward for the United States. To a very important degree, Israeli and Palestinian interests are linked. A peace agreement that does not address central Palestinian concerns will lack the legitimacy in Palestinian public opinion that is necessary to make peace real -- that can give the Palestinian state the authority and support it needs to enforce the peace and protect Israel's security. Unless the Palestinians get enough of what they want from the settlement, the Israelis will not get enough of the security they seek.

This linkage offers a historic opportunity for the Obama administration to improve the chances for peace and to align the United States with key Palestinian aspirations without moving away from or against Israel. To address the Palestinians' concerns about a two-state solution does not mean favoring the Palestinians over the Israelis; it means addressing the justifiable concerns of both thoughtful Palestinians and thoughtful Israelis about the future of their countries. No agreement can offer Israel perfect security -- and neither could permanent occupation of the West Bank -- but an agreement that does not command sustained support among the Palestinians cannot offer Israel much improvement over its current situation. This means that any deal must address the issues of greatest concern to the dispossessed refugees, who best embody Palestinian nationalism and remain the ultimate source of political legitimacy in Palestinian politics. Although some of the most contentious issues dividing the two parties are zero-sum ones, in which any Israeli gain represents a Palestinian loss, and vice versa, significant elements of a compromise solution are not zero-sum. Indeed, by bringing new resources to the table, the United States can make peace more attractive to both parties and ease the path to compromise on even the zero-sum issues for both Israeli and Palestinian leaders.

When he reiterates the United States' support for an independent, viable Palestinian state with borders based on the Green Line, that is, the pre-1967 borders (with minor and mutually-agreed-on modifications), Obama must go further than his predecessors. He must overcome the skepticism created by the Bush administration's empty rhetorical support for a Palestinian state. He must declare that the United States is committed not only to an independent Palestine but also to acknowledging the wrongs the Palestinians have suffered, compensating them for those, and otherwise ensuring a dignified future for every Palestinian family.

To give substance to this pledge, the Obama administration should consult with a wide range of Palestinian groups and other interested parties in order to develop recommendations for concrete U.S. proposals that address key Palestinian issues. In consultation with U.S. allies in Europe (especially Germany and the United Kingdom, which have special historical interests and ties in the region) and elsewhere, the Obama administration should present an agenda that substantially enhances the value of a two-state solution to both the Israelis and the Palestinians and mount a determined diplomatic effort to reinvigorate direct negotiations between the parties.

FINALLY

What the Palestinians want from peace is, first of all, an acknowledgment of the injustices they have suffered. Israeli and Palestinian scholars have documented many incidents during Israel's War of Independence in which massacres or threats of violence caused Palestinians to flee. Most Palestinians who left their homes and villages to protect themselves and their families were never allowed to return, and much of their property was confiscated by the new Israeli government. It is not a crime for civilians to flee combat, and international law recognizes the right of such people to return to their homes. Enforcing that right has been a centerpiece of U.S. policy in Bosnia, so why, the Palestinians ask, should they be treated any differently? This is a legitimate grievance, and the United States must lead the international community in reckoning with it fully and frankly. Any diplomatic effort hoping to build a secure peace with the Palestinians' support must address this issue.

That said, it would be as unfair to place all responsibility for the Palestinian refugee problem on Israel as it is to overlook the injustices the Palestinians suffered. The Israelis argue that the War of Independence was a fight for survival: here were survivors from Hitler's death camps suddenly facing not only the Palestinians but also the armies of five Arab states. Self-defense, the Israelis argue, justified their actions during and after the war. And although most Israelis acknowledge that wrongs were committed, almost all charge that, faced with similar choices, their critics would have done the same or worse. They are right. The responsibility for the nakba cannot simply be laid at Israel's door.

The United Nations' failure to provide elementary security for both the Arab and the Jewish inhabitants of Palestine as the British withdrew was the immediate cause of both communities' suffering in the late 1940s -- of the initial clashes between them, of the accelerating spiral of violence, of the Arab armies' entry into the conflict, and then of the prolonged period of hostility. Modern Israel should acknowledge and account for its part in those tragic events, but the international community at large must accept the ultimate responsibility for the nakba, solemnly acknowledging the wrongs done and sincerely trying to compensate Palestinian refugees today.

PAYING ONE'S DUES

The U.S. government should build on this historical reality to craft an international body that can assume all claims arising from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, adjudicate them in accordance with existing international precedents and law, and pay appropriate compensation to the claimants. Claims would include the losses suffered by Palestinians as well as those sustained by Jews forced to flee their homes in the region, but the system should be set up so that Jewish and Palestinian claimants do not compete for limited funds. This entity should be funded by the international community, with Israel making a substantial payment as part of whatever negotiated legal agreement creates the new body.

The expense will be significant; according to the Aix Group, an economic forum comprising Israeli, Palestinian, and international economists and policymakers, the total potential costs of compensation to Palestinian refugees can be estimated at $55-$85 billion. The Obama administration should work with U.S. allies and partners to fund the claims authority. The United States' contribution should be appropriately large, in order to demonstrate Washington's renewed determination to lead the effort to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The exact U.S. contribution should be determined as part of Washington's diplomatic effort to establish and fund the claims organization, but one possible model might look to a division of responsibilities in which the United States, Europe, Israel, member states of the Organization of the Islamic Conference, and the rest of the world (principally Japan, other East Asian countries, and other countries with strong interests in resolving the conflict, such as Australia, Canada, and Norway) would each assume a roughly equal share of the financial cost involved in funding a combination of compensation and humanitarian programs for the victims of the conflict. Under this program, the United States would make the largest contribution of any single country (with the possible exception of Israel), but the burden would also be widely shared among the many states that are concerned with stability and justice in this vital part of the world.

Although the certification and payment of claims will require complex procedures, and although the payment of compensation should be part of a multistage implementation of a final and comprehensive peace agreement between the Israelis and the Palestinians, the claims entity should begin to review and certify claims while negotiations are still under way. As quickly as the legal and institutional frameworks can be agreed on and established, refugees ought to be able to submit their claims, and those claims should be assessed and certified in a timely fashion. This will help assure the refugees that justice will be done and that the conclusion and implementation of a comprehensive peace agreement would result in tangible benefits.

THE RIGHT OF RETURN

The right of return is one of the tough zero-sum questions that will need to be settled in final-status negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Like the sensitive matter of the holy sites in Jerusalem, this issue is one of the most contentious; it has already been extensively tackled in various informal and "track-two" discussions, and neither side is likely to make an official final offer until very late in the process. Logically, Palestinian acceptance of a two-state solution would imply significant limits on the exercise of the right of Palestinian refugees (and their descendants and heirs) to move within the pre-1967 borders of Israel; if five million Palestinians entered Israel, the Jewish state would have an Arab majority. But it is one thing to draw logical conclusions and another for the Palestinian nation to make a deliberate and serious judgment that painful compromise on this point offers the best road to a just and humane future for the nation as a whole.

As the Palestinian nation grapples with these choices, the United States and the international community can take a number of steps to help the Palestinians make their decision. The key is to assure the Palestinians that the refugees and their heirs will be given several viable options. Palestinians who choose not to exercise their right of return or whose right is in some way restricted in the final Israeli-Palestinian agreement should be substantially compensated by the international community (including Israel) to acknowledge that the right to return is indeed a right and that its loss or restriction entitles the holder to just compensation.

Additionally, the United States and its partners around the world should take steps to ensure that at the end of the process, no Palestinian is stateless and all Palestinians enjoy full economic, social, and political rights. Programs need to be designed to integrate Palestinians in the diaspora into the communities in which they now live, allow them to emigrate within or from the Middle East, and ensure appropriate opportunities for them. Such programs should in no way prejudice negotiations on the right of return, but as Palestinians await the outcome of those talks, the world community must move decisively to create dignified choices for them.

The effort to provide a future for the Palestinians should not be restricted to Arab countries. The United States, Canada, Australia, and European countries, as well as other states around the world, should be prepared to offer immigration visas to Palestinians. Developing countries that agree to receive Palestinians should receive appropriate assistance from the international community; the citizens of poor countries should not feel that their governments are diverting resources in order to house newcomers. Countries such as Jordan and Syria, which have already set the example, should receive compensation as recognition for their past efforts.

THE ARCHITECTURE OF PEACE

The Obama administration will also need to address the structural imbalance of the peace process. Negotiations are front-loaded in favor of the Israelis; by recognizing Israel from the outset, the Palestinians concede Israel's core demand and receive only the right to start talking. The Palestinians have to put the most valuable card in their hand on the table, while the Israelis can keep all their best cards to themselves. At the back end, however, the imbalance is reversed. Here, it is Israel that has to make key concessions: withdrawing from territory, dismantling settlements and military posts, recognizing the Palestinian state. Now, it is Israel who must lay down the cards -- and trust and hope that the Palestinians will reciprocate by providing Israel with the security it craves. (The Palestinians face unpleasant choices at the end also: negotiating over the right of return and agreeing on borders will inevitably disappoint many refugees. However, the Palestinians will reap the rewards of any concessions on these issues once the new state gains control of its territory; the Israelis will still be living in hope that the Palestinians will continue indefinitely to cooperate on security issues.)

This basic imbalance had a serious and negative impact on Middle East negotiations during the Clinton administration. Once Arafat played the recognition card, he needed quick progress on the negotiations and concrete results on the ground to maintain his political position among the Palestinians; Israel, having already gained what it saw as the biggest benefit available, was reluctant to move on to a stage in which it would have to make painful concessions in return for uncertain results. The outcome, amply detailed in Dennis Ross' painstaking and thoughtful memoir, was a relationship between the parties that led to progressively diminishing trust, weakened the political position of peace advocates among the Israelis and the Palestinians alike, and ultimately led to the collapse of the peace process and political victories for hard-liners in both camps.

As the Obama administration moves to rebuild the momentum for peace, it needs to address the imbalances that complicate what would under any circumstances be a tortuous process. It must bring the obligations of and the benefits accruing to the parties into better balance as the negotiations move forward. The Palestinians need from the outset some clearer commitments on both the duration of the talks and the benefits that would result from any agreement; the Israelis need greater assurance that a future Palestinian state would have both the necessary means and the incentives to deliver on security.

For both parties, solid commitments from the international community on many of the issues that matter most could give the process new credibility and help build the public support needed to make it possible. One goal of the Obama administration should be to develop a package along these lines that encourages Palestinian groups that now reject recognition of Israel to come under the tent; that way, in the next round of negotiations, the Palestinians could present a unified bargaining team broadly representative of key Palestinian political tendencies. Making a peace deal more attractive to the Palestinians and bringing rejectionist political groups into the process would help address Israel's concerns about future relations between the two states. Another goal should be to further assuage Israeli concerns by making payments and benefits to the Palestinians conditional on the Palestinians' full implementation of the agreement's terms. This means that a future Palestinian state would have to meet its security obligations in order to continue to benefit from the provisions of the accord.

The Obama administration should also take steps to build broad public support for a compromise peace in Israel. Once again, it will need support from friends and allies, especially in Europe.

BEING COPERNICUS

Even when Copernicus put the sun at the center of the solar system, he did not forget that he was living on earth. In the same way, shifting Washington's attention toward the Palestinians' concerns would not -- and should not -- mean turning away from Israel. A refocusing of the United States' approach to the peace process would also offer Israel substantial long-term benefits. A decision by the international community to assume the ultimate moral and financial responsibility for the Palestinians' plight would give Israel an opportunity to close the book on Palestinian claims once and for all. Developing and helping fund a mechanism that would also compensate Israeli refugees from the Arab world would address the impression widely shared among Israelis that many states have a one-sided approach to refugee issues. And by making the Palestinians' commitment to peaceful coexistence a key test of the peace process, the Obama administration would be placing the focus where many Israelis think it belongs.

The Obama administration should engage with Israel seriously and candidly to determine what else the United States and its allies can do to help Israel take the risks and make the sacrifices required to give peace a chance. Support for Israel runs very deep among Americans, and it is likely to increase as Israel moves closer to a settlement with the Palestinians. The Obama administration needs to harness that support to help the Israeli government take steps on the sensitive questions of the status of Jerusalem and the status of the territories, steps that an increasing number of Israeli politicians acknowledge must be taken.

The prospect of a just settlement for the Palestinians and an end to the occupation would also open the door to a new age in European-Israeli relations. The United States is not the only country with a stake in bringing this dispute to an end. Washington should work with its EU partners to come up with major new incentives that would convince Israel that the benefits of peace outweigh the costs. The United States should press its NATO allies for conditional assurances that an Israeli-Palestinian agreement would open the alliance's doors to the Jewish state. Closer coordination with and greater support for Israel on the part of key EU countries on Iran policy should also follow. The EU should work closely with the United States to ensure that a comprehensive Israeli-Palestinian agreement leads to the recognition of Israel by the members of the Arab League and the normalization of relations between them. Membership for Israel in the Western European and Others Group at the United Nations should also accompany the agreement. The EU should welcome both Israel and the Palestinian state into the European single market as quickly and as thoroughly as possible, providing assistance to both states as necessary.

The Obama administration need not choose the Israelis over the Palestinians or the Palestinians over the Israelis. But it must engage with both sides more deeply than past U.S. administrations have done and use the full power of the U.S. presidency to develop a comprehensive peace strategy. This is one of the most difficult challenges the new president will face, but real progress is possible. At the very least, Obama can change the terms of the debate in the Middle East -- which in itself would be no mean achievement.

By Walter Russel Mead, January 2009

I'd like to hear your opinions on this article. I for one agree that first there needs to be good will by Israel, something that clearly does not exist, and that is proven by the fact that it doesn't even stop the criminal act of building and populating lands which are not their own.

Centurion1
07-28-2009, 14:02
"To the victor goes the spoil"

Bah, a two state solution is going to be impossible. The surrounding Muslim countries hate Israel too much. They have no chance to give up land. They can't afford too, every Muslim leader in the middle east would love to just steamroll Israel into the ground. Americans think that they can understand the Judeo-Arab conflict but we can't. Every president since Clinton has had a "peace arrangement". They are always bull. The middle eastern politicians needs to stop using anti-israeli rhetoric to get elected.

Odin
07-28-2009, 15:43
I'd like to hear your opinions on this article. I for one agree that first there needs to be good will by Israel, something that clearly does not exist, and that is proven by the fact that it doesn't even stop the criminal act of building and populating lands which are not their own.

Given your closing personal statement you've taken just about any opposite view and labeled it "criminal" based on your opinion that it is not thier land. You've justified it by making the claim that Israel dosent have the ability to extend good will, and its "proven" because they are engaged in a criminal activity.

So if one were to claim that the lands are Isreali's, that they have shown good will by allowing a hostile people to squat there and that it is thier right to build what ever they want on thier land, you have essentially disqualified that argument before it could be made.

The opinions you claim you wanted to hear, did you just want affirmation of your position? With the ending qualifier you left the reader its hard to imagine you would want to hear anything other then that.

:logic:

Hooahguy
07-28-2009, 16:16
i was going to put my opinion in, but then i read your closing statement and figured arguing with you is a waste of my time.
:wall:

Seamus Fermanagh
07-28-2009, 16:28
[QUOTE=Centurion1;2300013...every Muslim leader in the middle east would love to just steamroll Israel into the ground....[/QUOTE]

I'd say they really do NOTwant that. They love having a convenient external enemy to use as a foil to minimize social unrest or rebellion at home. Having Israel nearby and always under constant low-level attack is a far better tool for their use in maintaining their regimes.

If they actually DID destroy Israel, then the arab states would have a large contingent of armed folks wondering exactly what their own governments have done for them lately and why the current crop of rulers might look better hanging from a palace balcony rather than giving speeches from one.

Jolt
07-28-2009, 17:02
Given your closing personal statement you've taken just about any opposite view and labeled it "criminal" based on your opinion that it is not thier land. You've justified it by making the claim that Israel dosent have the ability to extend good will, and its "proven" because they are engaged in a criminal activity.

So if one were to claim that the lands are Isreali's, that they have shown good will by allowing a hostile people to squat there and that it is thier right to build what ever they want on thier land, you have essentially disqualified that argument before it could be made.

The opinions you claim you wanted to hear, did you just want affirmation of your position? With the ending qualifier you left the reader its hard to imagine you would want to hear anything other then that.

:logic:

Actually, I was giving my opinion, to which I'm sure many people (I'm sure Hooahguy guy does) disagree.

You can't claim the lands aren't Israeli because they aren't. If Israel is a member of the international institutions it is, then he must abide by all international protocols and regulations, and within them outlines the borders between Israel and Palestine.

Using that premise, since Israel is willingly consenting action by citizens to settle in a land which is not theirs, and further, prevents the Palestinians from asserting sovereignty in their own land (Which would involve forcibly removing Israeli settlers from Palestine and booting them back to Israel), then I can conclude that it is correctly labelled as criminal, by international standards.

Crazed Rabbit
07-28-2009, 17:04
I'd like to hear your opinions on this article. I for one agree that first there needs to be good will by Israel, something that clearly does not exist, and that is proven by the fact that it doesn't even stop the criminal act of building and populating lands which are not their own.

Hmm? Giving up Gaza unilaterally means nothing?

CR

Banquo's Ghost
07-28-2009, 17:46
Hmm? Giving up Gaza unilaterally means nothing?

CR

Not really, since there was no sacrifice for Israel involved. Getting rid of Gaza was a relief.

Odin
07-28-2009, 17:55
You can't claim the lands aren't Israeli because they aren't. If Israel is a member of the international institutions it is, then he must abide by all international protocols and regulations, and within them outlines the borders between Israel and Palestine.

If you are going to use adherence to international institutions dictums as the baramoter for what others cant or can claim then again your creating a predetermined response based on a desired outcome. Of course you are entitled to label anything you like, or draw any conclusion you like but that dosent mean you are correct.

Protip:when you use language on a message board that is in absolute terms like "They are criminals" you place yourself in a position to be rebuttaled and be possibly humilitated. The tip is in the last sentence, notice I used "possibly" this 1 word addition to the prose gives you much more leeway to make arguments in favor of your position. it also allows you the ability to make concessions to others who make valid points without having to say in absolute terms "I was wrong"

The answer is often somewhere in the middle, proclaiming Israel cannot claim this or cannot do this isnt based in reality. Its based on a preferred outcome that isnt based on tangible examples of behaviors of said parties, and thats where your argument falls on its face. Reality based arguments on Israel are always the most prudent because what should happen based on law, hasnt, nor will it likely too.

Good luck in your quest for opinion though, hope it goes exactly the way you want it.

Jolt
07-28-2009, 17:55
Hmm? Giving up Gaza unilaterally means nothing?

CR

So you believe that giving back an occupied zone which besides small, is overpopulated, resourceless and without sufficient water for its present inhabitants is something which to forget the rest of the obligations of the country?

Hooahguy
07-28-2009, 18:03
i really hate to say this, but why does israel have the obligation to care for gaza? its not under their control.
and its right next to the mediterranean, whcih, AFAIK, is freshwater.

Banquo's Ghost
07-28-2009, 18:07
i really hate to say this, but why does israel have the obligation to care for gaza? its not under their control.
and its right next to the mediterranean, whcih, AFAIK, is freshwater.

That's the point. When Gaza was occupied, it cost a lot to administer. Giving it up under the guise of a concession saved a lot of money.

By the way, I wouldn't recommend drinking the water from the Mediterranean. It's not freshwater.

Odin
07-28-2009, 18:09
i really hate to say this, but why does israel have the obligation to care for gaza? its not under their control.


Maybe the small rocket fire into Israel's towns might be good reason? Otherwise there going to have to rickroll them again in a couple of years once Hamas rearms. Rinse repeat

Jolt
07-28-2009, 18:09
If you are going to use adherence to international institutions dictums as the baramoter for what others cant or can claim then again your creating a predetermined response based on a desired outcome. Of course you are entitled to label anything you like, or draw any conclusion you like but that dosent mean you are correct.

When you give a fact as I have, one can say that the said person is correct. However, I can accept that other people have other points of view on the matter at hand, and that these may be equally valid as well.


Protip:when you use language on a message board that is in absolute terms like "They are criminals" you place yourself in a position to be rebuttaled and be possibly humilitated. The tip is in the last sentence, notice I used "possibly" this 1 word addition to the prose gives you much more leeway to make arguments in favor of your position. it also allows you the ability to make concessions to others who make valid points without having to say in absolute terms "I was wrong"

:laugh4:

But sure, thanks for the tip.


The answer is often somewhere in the middle, proclaiming Israel cannot claim this or cannot do this isnt based in reality. Its based on a preferred outcome that isnt based on tangible examples of behaviors of said parties, and thats where your argument falls on its face. Reality based arguments on Israel are always the most prudent because what should happen based on law, hasnt, nor will it likely too.

Good luck in your quest for opinion though, hope it goes exactly the way you want it.

Oh, I am well aware that answer for most things lies in the middleground. I myself am largely a proponent of that. Aristotle called it "Prudence", while Confucius called it "Harmony". I am not saying that they cannot do what they are doing. I was speaking in relation with the article. The fact is that the author says that a central issue to solving the Israeli-Palestinian problem is the settlements. These are illegal and are an humilliating stain on all Palestinians. The simple fact that the Israeli Prime-Minister refuses to dismantle the settlements not only gives strength to Palestinian radicals over moderates, but also flat out prevents any advancement in peace talk negotiations.

Odin
07-28-2009, 18:13
Oh, I am well aware that answer for most things lies in the middleground. I myself am largely a proponent of that. Aristotle called it "Prudence", while Confucius called it "Harmony".

This wins the thread for me, I officially take my leave sir! You get it, its not an israel or palastine issue its a palastine israel issue (as a zen master might say) it is not one side over the other it is a harmonous pile of dung that anyone who was prudent (hint hint mr obama) would allow those who left the pile there to clean it up themselves.

IE: let the muslims come take the land themselves if they dont think israel belongs there, or shut the hell up already because, reality check, the jews aint moving.

Cheers.

Jolt
07-28-2009, 18:16
This wins the thread for me, I officially take my leave sir! You get it, its not an israel or palastine issue its a palastine israel issue (as a zen master might say) it is not one side over the other it is a harmonous pile of dung that anyone who was prudent (hint hint mr obama) would allow those who left the pile there to clean it up themselves.

IE: let the muslims come take the land themselves if they dont think israel belongs there, or shut the hell up already because, reality check, the jews aint moving.

Cheers.

...Hm?

tibilicus
07-28-2009, 18:36
Peace will never happen. Both sides hate each other with a passion. Israel will also only accept deals on their terms, which means the continuous expansion of illegal settlements in Palestinian territory. Then again Hamas wont accept any deal which doesn't involve the destruction of Israel.

If only they could put such issues aside and agree on a single, unified Palestine-Israel state, shame the likely hood of that happening is zero thanks to both sides stubborn mentality and the fact they both just love shooting each other. TBH I'm sick of hearing about Israel,Hamas, hezboulla ect. No side has shown any real initiative for peace, quite frankly neither side deserves it.

End rant.

Hooahguy
07-28-2009, 18:45
By the way, I wouldn't recommend drinking the water from the Mediterranean. It's not freshwater.
so why dont they solve the problem by making water purifiers like israel did? :idea2:

Sarmatian
07-28-2009, 19:19
The entire discussion is pretty pointless. Israel position depends on the position of the United States and as long that doesn't change, there's no reason for Israel to change anything in their position.

HoreTore
07-28-2009, 19:25
so why dont they solve the problem by making water purifiers like israel did? :idea2:

Uhm.....

Just how are they supposed to build water purifiers when Israel won't allow anything into gaza...?

Jolt
07-28-2009, 19:27
so why dont they solve the problem by making water purifiers like israel did? :idea2:

Money? Electricity? Qualified staff?


The entire discussion is pretty pointless. Israel position depends on the position of the United States and as long that doesn't change, there's no reason for Israel to change anything in their position.

Did you read the essay? Whatdcha thought?

EDIT: I think Obama has the right mood to push the peace process forward. Otherwise obviously there wouldn't have been this "mini-crisis" with the Obama Administration using such "strong" words to ask Israel to dismantle the settlements.

FactionHeir
07-28-2009, 19:39
so why dont they solve the problem by making water purifiers like israel did? :idea2:

You mean the ones that take electricity and money to run of which the Gaza Palestinians have hardly any / none? :book:
Of course, these stations might also go up in flames next time Gaza's favorite neighbor decides to do a bombing run of civilian institutions.

Besides that, I think the article was a good read and relatively well balanced and fair.

Samurai Waki
07-28-2009, 19:57
What Israel needs to do is discover a source of limitless energy, and then strap massive anti-gravitational wells underneath the surface of their entire country and then just physically move their country to wherever they see fit. That way they would never actually leave the Holy Land, and the Arabs wouldn't have to worry about sharing a border. :clown:

tibilicus
07-28-2009, 19:59
so why dont they solve the problem by making water purifiers like israel did? :idea2:

I LOL'd..

Sarmatian
07-28-2009, 20:02
Did you read the essay? Whatdcha thought?

EDIT: I think Obama has the right mood to push the peace process forward. Otherwise obviously there wouldn't have been this "mini-crisis" with the Obama Administration using such "strong" words to ask Israel to dismantle the settlements.

I've read the most of it. The article identified correctly the most important factor in this conflict. It's not Israel, it's not Palestine it's the US.

I know enough of the history of the Balkans to know that arguments who drew blood, whose crimes are worse etc... are meaningless. They don't lead to the solution, they only lead to more blood. Unless you make the situation that both sides lose if they continue and that both sides gain if they stop, you'll always have status quo.

At the moment, there's very little pressure on the Israel to stop what they're doing. They have very little to gain and practically nothing to lose. On the other hand, Palestinians have their back against the wall. They lack food, medicine, water, you name it. They have very little to lose but are not convinced that they have much to gain by changing their position.

Unless both sides are ready to deal, there isn't much point in talking about the solution.

Pannonian
07-28-2009, 20:32
Peace will never happen. Both sides hate each other with a passion. Israel will also only accept deals on their terms, which means the continuous expansion of illegal settlements in Palestinian territory. Then again Hamas wont accept any deal which doesn't involve the destruction of Israel.

If only they could put such issues aside and agree on a single, unified Palestine-Israel state, shame the likely hood of that happening is zero thanks to both sides stubborn mentality and the fact they both just love shooting each other. TBH I'm sick of hearing about Israel,Hamas, hezboulla ect. No side has shown any real initiative for peace, quite frankly neither side deserves it.

End rant.
We should just do what I've urged many times before. Fence the whole area off, allow nothing in or out. Quarantine the whole region. Let them have at each other as much as they want, as long as they leave the rest of us alone.

Jolt
07-28-2009, 20:56
As a heads-up I had forgotten the introduction of the text. -_- It is now available.

I think his proposal to make it up for all zero-sum ceedings is great. The fact that if the USA and the EU could give incentive for both countries to keep the peace deal (Such as entry into the EU Free Market), it would be equally great.

I think this part of the introduction explains very well the reluctantness of each side to compromise.


But the conflict is about more than land; many people on both sides feel profoundly that a compromise would be morally wrong. A significant minority of Israelis not only retain a fervent attachment to the land that makes up the Eretz Yisrael of the Bible but also believe that to settle and possess it is to fulfill a divine decree. For these Jews, it is a sin to surrender land that God has given them. Although most Israelis do not share this belief with dogmatic rigor, they would be reluctant to obstruct the path of those seeking to redeem the Promised Land.

It may be difficult for outsiders to understand the Palestinians' yearning for the villages and landscapes lost during the birth of Israel in 1948. The sentiment is much more than nostalgia. The Palestinians' national identity took shape in the course of their struggle with Zionism, and the mass displacement of Palestinians resulting from Israel's War of Independence, or the nakba ("catastrophe" in Arabic), was the fiery crucible out of which the modern Palestinian consciousness emerged. The dispossessed Palestinians, especially refugees living in camps, are seen as the bearers of the most authentic form of Palestinian identity. The unconditional right of Palestinians to return to the land and homes lost in the nakba is the nation's central demand. For many, although by no means all, Palestinians, to give up the right of return would be to betray their people. Even those who do not see this claim as an indispensable goal of the national movement are uneasy about giving it up.

Centurion1
07-28-2009, 21:39
I'd say they really do NOTwant that. They love having a convenient external enemy to use as a foil to minimize social unrest or rebellion at home. Having Israel nearby and always under constant low-level attack is a far better tool for their use in maintaining their regimes.

If they actually DID destroy Israel, then the arab states would have a large contingent of armed folks wondering exactly what their own governments have done for them lately and why the current crop of rulers might look better hanging from a palace balcony rather than giving speeches from one.

touche. Perhaps i would have been better to say that they all hate Israel but also appreciate them for their excellent role as middle eastern Scapegoat and diversionary tactic. :clown:

Megas Methuselah
07-28-2009, 22:10
I LOL'd..

I know, me too. :rolleyes:

Subotan
07-29-2009, 23:44
i was going to put my opinion in, but then i read your closing statement and figured arguing with you is a waste of my time.
:wall:
I'm interested in hearing a pro-Israel viewpoint on the issue, rather than the usual Rush Limbaugh rubbish.


Oh, I am well aware that answer for most things lies in the middleground. I myself am largely a proponent of that. Aristotle called it "Prudence", while Confucius called it "Harmony". I am not saying that they cannot do what they are doing
That reminds me of the quote "The fairest compromise leaves no-one satisfied"

Peace will never happen. Both sides hate each other with a passion. Israel will also only accept deals on their terms, which means the continuous expansion of illegal settlements in Palestinian territory. Then again Hamas wont accept any deal which doesn't involve the destruction of Israel.
.
You'd be surprised. People said the same thing about the troubles in Northern Ireland.


Uhm.....

Just how are they supposed to build water purifiers when Israel won't allow anything into gaza...?
*MITTENS*

About the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, I have one thing to say: You reap what you sow.

Jolt
07-30-2009, 00:08
That reminds me of the quote "The fairest compromise leaves no-one satisfied"

Though that may be true, an unfair compromise leaves one side extremely dissatisfied, which may very well lead to a continuation of the dispute.

Beskar
07-30-2009, 03:03
Being honest, why not just have a one-state solution where they share the land under one government? It seems rather stupid having two states on one patch of land.

Hooahguy
07-30-2009, 03:27
Being honest, why not just have a one-state solution where they share the land under one government? It seems rather stupid having two states on one patch of land.
good question, and i think i have the answer.
the original plan for israel was for it to be a safehaven for jews if there was to be another event like the holocaust. so in essence, a jewish state. because there are more palestinians and jews, it would cease to be a jewish state, which is why most israelis are against a one-state solution.

Centurion1
07-30-2009, 03:48
And the palestinians do not want it because they hate the idea of sharing anything with jews, especially western jews.

Louis VI the Fat
07-30-2009, 07:26
So you believe that giving back an occupied zone which besides small, is overpopulated, resourceless and without sufficient water for its present inhabitants is something which to forget the rest of the obligations of the country?The Gaza strip is small. Overpopulated it was not when Israel occupied it.

It is dedicated policy of Palestine to outbreed Israel. Palestine has, over the past sixty years, recorded some of the highest population growths in history, of any nations.

There is a common misconception that Israel drove off millions Palestinians in 1948 and subsequent wars, and packed them into tiny, unviably small areas. This is not the case. The cramped millions have been bred afterwards, in a deliberate act.



the mediterranean, whcih, AFAIK, is freshwater.The Mediterranean is quite salty. It is also heavily polluted: far more water flows from the Atlantic into the Med than the reverse. This is perhaps counterintuitive, considering the fairly large number of rivers that flow into the Med and the Black Sea, from the Nile to the Volga. However, more water evaporates under the Mediterranean sun than is delivered by rivers. Indeed, if one were to dam the Straights of Gibraltar, much of the Med bassin would dry up quite soon.
As a result, the pollution stays in and builds up over time. It is an ecological disaster zone. The azure water, so central to the Mediterranean identity from France to Greece, is under threat.

(Which is of more than trivial importance. I can not begin to think what course World History would've taken had the Mediterranean been fresh water....
Even today, the Mediterranean; the lack of fresh water in many surrounding countries; the environmental catastrophe, shape the countries that, in the immortal words of Plato, live around the sea like frogs around a pond)

Israel's bombing of Lebanon was an environmental disaster, affecteing the whole of the Mediterranean (http://blogcritics.org/scitech/article/a-mediterranean-environmental-disaster-looms-nearly/)



Which serves as a nice bridge to combine my two replies above. The entire Israel-Arab conflict is small beer. The real catastrophe in the making are unsustainable population growth (Latest tally: Egypt: 80 million! Algeria 35 million! Israel/Palestine 15 million!), and environmental catastrophe. The ancient Phoenicians didn't understand what damage they inflicted until their nice cedar forests had all but turned into desert, becoming history as much as their civilization.

Jolt
07-30-2009, 21:54
The Gaza strip is small. Overpopulated it was not when Israel occupied it.

It is dedicated policy of Palestine to outbreed Israel. Palestine has, over the past sixty years, recorded some of the highest population growths in history, of any nations.

There is a common misconception that Israel drove off millions Palestinians in 1948 and subsequent wars, and packed them into tiny, unviably small areas. This is not the case. The cramped millions have been bred afterwards, in a deliberate act.

Indeed the population growth for the Palestinians rose exponentially after the Nakba, but that fact does not override my argument. The Israeli retreat from Gaza can be partly attributed to the overpopulation and resourcelessness of the place. Otherwise, I wouldn't be surprised if Jewish settlements were still growing there like mushrooms, much like in the West Bank. And pointing out the withdrawal from there as a sign of true and genuine Israeli good will, and that because of such a move, we should give Israel a break from its obligations to not treat Palestinians inside their own territory like cattle is still, wrong. As the author said, the actual peace process can't begin unless both sides are willing to give something up. Israel doesn't even want to dismantle settlements which are outside of the internationally recognized borders of Israel (I mean, heck, if the Jewish settlers actually had Palestinian nationality...), and it doesn't want to dismantle the checkpoints inside Palestinian territory used to identify and arrest any suspicious character (And they aren't within their jurisdiction to do so), which humiliates further honest Palestinians who have to live with this situation on a day-to-day basis. Yet as a consequence, the sucessive Israeli governments say that the sole responsability behind the creation of violent Palestinian movements is of the Palestinian parties. That not only reveals an immensely immature position, but the denial of Israel's own responsibility in sustaining the only conflict only contributes further for a radicalization of the Palestinians.

Tribesman
07-30-2009, 22:55
It is dedicated policy of Palestine to outbreed Israel.
It is the dedicated policy of Israel to bring in immigrants to displace locals

Crazed Rabbit
07-30-2009, 23:15
That's the point. When Gaza was occupied, it cost a lot to administer. Giving it up under the guise of a concession saved a lot of money.

By the way, I wouldn't recommend drinking the water from the Mediterranean. It's not freshwater.

And the settlements in the West Bank don't cost money to defend? Would you claim they had done nothing if Israel pulled out of the west bank entirely? Is cost the only measure of something - not control or ability to prevent weapons smuggling?
:rolleyes:


As the author said, the actual peace process can't begin unless both sides are willing to give something up.

And yet you managed to go on for several sentences without saying what Palestinians would have to give up. Here's an idea; stop launching and supporting terrorist attacks! Pretty simple, you'd think. But not simple enough. Or maybe the various Palestinian groups mean it when they say they want to destroy Israel.
:rolleyes:

CR

Tribesman
07-30-2009, 23:32
And the settlements in the West Bank don't cost money to defend?
But the west bank offers a financial return that the Gaza doesn't.


Here's an idea; stop launching and supporting terrorist attacks!
You mean like calling ceasefires?:idea2:
Hey thats been tried lots of times, they don't work unless the other side is willing to make a compromise.
Damn I seem to remember the crazy Fenians doing that too , call a ceasefire see to what progress is made , when progress is non-existant go and blow up some things to shake people up a bit and see if the other side is willing to talk serious next time, then call another ceasefire and come to an arrangement.

Beirut
08-01-2009, 20:54
The original plan for israel was for it to be a safehaven for jews if there was to be another event like the holocaust.


The Zionist movement, with Theodore Hertzl as it's leader, was seeking to have Palestine made into a Jewish state as far back as the late 19th century. So to say the original plan for Israel was for it to be a safehaven for Jews if there was another Holocaust - an event which took place forty-years after Hertzl's original efforts began - is wrong.

Furunculus
08-01-2009, 21:14
Louis: "It is dedicated policy of Palestine to outbreed Israel."

It is the dedicated policy of Israel to bring in immigrants to displace locals

i think louis may be going through one of his periodic pseudo extremist devils advocate moments.

Tribesman
08-01-2009, 22:18
The Zionist movement, with Theodore Hertzl as it's leader
Stop that right now, it is unfair to place historical facts before Hooah when it comes to Israel.
I am not being particularly insulting or anything , but even if you go by just this topic and leave all the other Israeli topics out of it, the demonstration is self evident.
Knowledge and facts get entirely sidelined by nothing but religious/ethnic/racial fervour.

Hooahguy
08-02-2009, 03:37
The Zionist movement, with Theodore Hertzl as it's leader, was seeking to have Palestine made into a Jewish state as far back as the late 19th century. So to say the original plan for Israel was for it to be a safehaven for Jews if there was another Holocaust - an event which took place forty-years after Hertzl's original efforts began - is wrong.
i was actually referring to the zionism right after the holocaust. one of the primary reasons why israel was founded was the holocaust.

Louis VI the Fat
08-02-2009, 04:15
Louis: "It is dedicated policy of Palestine to outbreed Israel."


i think louis may be going through one of his periodic pseudo extremist devils advocate moments.Israeli Jews have a higher reproduction rate than any western country. Palestinians have a higher rate than any Arab country.

This is no coincidence, but a result of an acutely felt and highly political demographic situation. Another oddity is that unlike almost anywhere else, demographic growth correlates positively with urbanity. That is, normally rural populations grow faster than urban populations. This is reversed in Israel and Palestine. Mainly responsible are orthodox Jews in Jeruzalem, and Palestinians in Gaza.

As for Palestine: it is the 'revenge of the craddle'*. If you can't beat them, perhaps your children can. Make more of them, and instill them with hatred. (See, for example, the children's program 'Jihad Mouse')


*A term which I believe originated in Quebec. Revanche du berceau (“revenge of the cradle”) as revenge for the British conquest. Families of fifteen children were legendary. From no more than a few thousand settlers, in two centuries a population of ten to fifteen million were bred. Many emigrated to the US to escape the poverty and suffocation of the Church.
The sociological phenomenon is well documented. Another famous example is Belgium. Upon independence in 1830, Walloons constituted 60% of the population, the Flemings 40%. Then the Flemings, under the explicit order of their bishops, started a breeding program. In a little over a century, the Flemings had become the sixty percent majority. This is not a trivial fun fact. It lies at the very root of understanding Belgian development in the 20th century.




The overwhelming majority of the world population is intimately familiar with the demographic development of its own 'group'. I know most posters here know and care about the demographic development of their own group, even if they'll never admit to it. It is simply taboo to talk of them. (I am also quite convinced that in Europe all the hardright parties would dissapear overnight if the minority populations were shrinking).

Souls for Rome, souls for Allah, souls for Israel. It is quite deliberate policy of many groups to outbreed competitors. And the phenomenon is not limited to religion, or totalitarian states. On the contrary. In democracy, where being the majority means even easier access to power, the results are far reaching. The examples are numerous: Israel, the US, North Africans in France.

Louis VI the Fat
08-02-2009, 04:19
I do not think that Beirut and Hooahguy are mutually exclusive in their view of the origin of a Jewish state in Palestine.

Zionism originated as Jewish nationalism in the late nineteenth century. Colonisation of Palestine ensued.

The state of Israel was founded in 1948 as a consequence of Holocaust.

Beirut
08-02-2009, 14:30
i was actually referring to the zionism right after the holocaust. one of the primary reasons why israel was founded was the holocaust.

And yet Ben-Gurion said "The Jews of Europe are not my concern."

He also said,""If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England, and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Yisrael, then I would opt for the second alternative."

Clearly, the situation in Palestine with the Zionists and what was happening in Germany were two entirelly different affairs. This is shown by the Zionist terrorists murdering Allied soldiers in Palestine at the same time as Allied soldiers were fighting against the Nazis. The real kicker is that some of those Zionist terrorists who murdered Allied soldiers went on to become Prime Ministers of Israel (Begin and Shamir) and then went about crying how the Allies didn't try hard enough to stop the Holocaust. The hypocrisy of the Zionist movement was galactic in proportion.

The Holocaust was an "expedient" for the creation of Israel, but to cite it as a primary resaon for Israel's founding is wrong and nothing but revisionist history.

Hooahguy
08-02-2009, 14:36
i still personally believe that a good chunk of the countries who voted "yes" were only doing it over guilt.

Tribesman
08-02-2009, 15:49
i still personally believe that a good chunk of the countries who voted "yes" were only doing it over guilt.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Is there any basis for your personal belief on that matter or is it just something that sprang at random into your head?

Jolt
08-02-2009, 18:53
i still personally believe that a good chunk of the countries who voted "yes" were only doing it over guilt.

Well, to be honest, if I was the leader of my country over that period of time, the worst feeling I could get was sadness at such a loss of life. Jews were none of the concern of other countries during that timeperiod, so how could other countries feel guilty? It was none of my responsability.

Likewise, you have got today a case of genocide, which is being done by Semitic/Arab Sudanese against Negroid Sudanese from Darfur. Do you see any sign of guilt in Brown's face? Sarkozy's face? Obama's face?

But in any case, that is not the subject of the thread. It is a pity that noone besides Sarmatian has yet commented on the essay itself.

HoreTore
08-02-2009, 19:02
Watched the news tonight.

A family of palestinians in east-jerusalem thrown out of the home they've lived in for 53 years at 05:30 in the morning. Of course beaten, a few of them sent away in ambulances.

A few hours later, in comes the new owners of the house, a couple jewish settler families.

Yes, that's the way to peace... these people are not to be treated as civilians, IMO. They're legitimate targets for bombings.

Rhyfelwyr
08-02-2009, 19:07
I'm not going to base any judgements on this situation off of the news. Watching the BBC suggests Israel is the bad guy. But when I see the US News channels they show late a night, it's the Palestinians up to no good.

Who is right, I have no idea. It's got to be black and white though, otherwise it's no fun. :smash:

Hooahguy
08-02-2009, 19:14
Well, to be honest, if I was the leader of my country over that period of time, the worst feeling I could get was sadness at such a loss of life. Jews were none of the concern of other countries during that timeperiod, so how could other countries feel guilty? It was none of my responsability.

Likewise, you have got today a case of genocide, which is being done by Semitic/Arab Sudanese against Negroid Sudanese from Darfur. Do you see any sign of guilt in Brown's face? Sarkozy's face? Obama's face?

But in any case, that is not the subject of the thread. It is a pity that noone besides Sarmatian has yet commented on the essay itself.
well its a different world today.
when genocide, like in darfur, is going on, few can be called bystanders. the us and britain had the chance to bomb the camps, they chose not to. many poles and frenchmen, and others turned in jews to the nazis, much guilt to that.
and how do you know they dont have guilt over sudan? i sure have guilt over it. i mean, its really a horrible thing to say "never again" when its still happening in places like darfur. i for one try to donate to the darfur fund as much as i can as well as go door to door collecting.

and at horetore, why dont i flip that situation around?
a palestinian suicide bomber blows up a bus at 5:30 in the morning. people taken away in ambulances. a few hours later, militants cheer for joy over the attack.
Yes, that's the way to peace... these people are not to be treated as civilians, IMO. They're legitimate targets for bombings.


:shrug:

Centurion1
08-02-2009, 19:23
and at horetore, why dont i flip that situation around?
a palestinian suicide bomber blows up a bus at 5:30 in the morning. people taken away in ambulances. a few hours later, militants cheer for joy over the attack.
Yes, that's the way to peace... these people are not to be treated as civilians, IMO. They're legitimate targets for bombings.

Absolutely, right. horetore all you are doing is taking in one side without the other. Overall, i believe the Palestinians have caused more hate. The Israelis wouldn't mind sharing their country with people who aren't bent on destroying their race and religion. Yeah, the Palestinians are totally innocent..........


A few hours later, in comes the new owners of the house, a couple Jewish settler families.

Oh and why were Jewish SETTLERS settling in Jerusalem. Were they kicked off the land they cultivated and the houses they built by Muslims in the Golan heights, or the west bank, or the Gaza strip?


i still personally believe that a good chunk of the countries who voted "yes" were only doing it over guilt.

Tribesman, its a historical fact. it is in our history books. Especially in the case of America. It is probably the main reason why the state of Israel was created imo

HoreTore
08-02-2009, 21:51
and at horetore, why dont i flip that situation around?
a palestinian suicide bomber blows up a bus at 5:30 in the morning. people taken away in ambulances. a few hours later, militants cheer for joy over the attack.
Yes, that's the way to peace... these people are not to be treated as civilians, IMO. They're legitimate targets for bombings.

I have absolutely nothing against whacking the guerilla fighters, they are of course just as legitimate a target, and as much an obstacle to peace as the settlers. Why on earth would you think I thought otherwise?

I don't consider palestinian or israeli civilians legitimate targets. Palestinian soldiers, Israeli soldiers and the settlers are all legitimate targets IMO though. Whack 'em all.


Oh and why were Jewish SETTLERS settling in Jerusalem. Were they kicked off the land they cultivated and the houses they built by Muslims in the Golan heights, or the west bank, or the Gaza strip?

Jerusalem is split in two; one part dominated by jews, one part by arabs. In this case, the jewish settlers are trying to make the arab part jewish.

Jolt
08-02-2009, 21:51
Oh and why were Jewish SETTLERS settling in Jerusalem. Were they kicked off the land they cultivated and the houses they built by Muslims in the Golan heights, or the west bank, or the Gaza strip?

First, considering the Palestinian familly was living in East-Jerusalem for 56 years, I'd suppose they have the Israeli nationality, with all the inherent rights adjacent to such a status within their own State. Regardless, I don't see why Jewish settlers have to settle on the house of Palestinians in Israel. If they have the house legally, then they are entitled to it. Secondly, there is plenty of space in Israel to acomodate settler famillies, especially in the Negev. Installing settler famillies there would be an incentive to making the area much more fertile and inhabittable to the Israeli government, as well as giving the settler famillies enough space to build their lives away from densely populated urban centers (Since ultra-orthodox settler famillies are not used to densely populated centers, where tolerance to non-Jewish practices is much higher), as their settlements in the West Bank are often composed of only a few dozen thousand settlers. In fact, most cities in the Southern district of Israeli are more often than not less densely populated than Israeli settlements in the West Bank. It could provide a crucial location for alocating settlers there.

Tribesman
08-03-2009, 02:11
If they have the house legally, then they are entitled to it.
No they are not, it is occupied territory, it is illegal to move any of your civilian population to live in occupied territory.

Oh and why were Jewish SETTLERS settling in Jerusalem. Were they kicked off the land they cultivated and the houses they built by Muslims in the Golan heights, or the west bank, or the Gaza strip?

Errrr....the people who obtained the properties are Americans, besides which that paticular sect isn't from the middle east so they can't have been kicked out of arab lands, actually that crowd have a real problem with middle eastern jews as they are the wrong sort of jew.:yes:


Tribesman, its a historical fact. it is in our history books.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Run through the nations in the vote and make the guilt links then. For fun why not run through the nations that changed their votes and explore why they gave into the pressure to change their votes.

Seamus Fermanagh
08-03-2009, 02:48
And yet Ben-Gurion said "The Jews of Europe are not my concern."

He also said,""If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England, and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Yisrael, then I would opt for the second alternative."

Clearly, the situation in Palestine with the Zionists and what was happening in Germany were two entirelly different affairs. This is shown by the Zionist terrorists murdering Allied soldiers in Palestine at the same time as Allied soldiers were fighting against the Nazis. The real kicker is that some of those Zionist terrorists who murdered Allied soldiers went on to become Prime Ministers of Israel (Begin and Shamir) and then went about crying how the Allies didn't try hard enough to stop the Holocaust. The hypocrisy of the Zionist movement was galactic in proportion.

The Holocaust was an "expedient" for the creation of Israel, but to cite it as a primary resaon for Israel's founding is wrong and nothing but revisionist history.


Zionism certainly predates the creation of Israel and the Nazi atrocities of the 1930s and 1940s -- modern zionism harkening back at least to the Congress of 1897. Many of the early Israeli leaders in the post-WW2 era were, indeed, more ardent about zionism than about saving jews per se.

Expediency also influenced British policies in the region. Ironically, a number of the cadre of Jewish terrorists/guerillas had been trained by the British as a potential resistance force in 1941 and 1942, when it was feared that Rommel would not be stopped.

The UN General Assembly resolution advocating a two-state partition of the remaining British mandate territory was, ultimately, a recommendation. Prior to its adoption by the Security Council -- the only UN body with the purview to enact the recommendation -- the British accelerated their withdrawal of British forces from the Mandate area. On 14 May 1948, within 8 hours of the ceremony marking the conclusion of British administration, Ben Gurion declared the formation of Israel. The existence of Israel was recognized, at least de facto, by the US within 12 hours of Ben Gurion's declaration. Subsequently, the UN did recognize Israel as well. Territorial claims were never resolved -- and still aren't.

I think Hooahguy is correct that, absent the Holocaust, there would have been much less support for the creation of an Israeli state. Zionism and the specific efforts of modern zionists to effect Israel would have existed regardless, but support (however tepid) from the UN would not have been as forthcoming. Absent the Holocaust, Ben Gurion would still have declared an "Israel" the moment British forces ceased to actively control the area -- but it seems unlikely that support would have been forthcoming much less formal recognition. History would have been a bit different I think.

Jolt
08-03-2009, 15:12
No they are not, it is occupied territory, it is illegal to move any of your civilian population to live in occupied territory.

I was refering to the Palestinians. If they had the house legally in East Jerusalem then they were entitled to stay in it.

In any case, it is known that it is Israel's policy to extinguish the Palestinian community in Jerusalem, at least according to an EU report on East Jerusalem.


"Israeli 'facts on the ground' - including new settlements, construction of the barrier, discriminatory housing policies, house demolitions, restrictive permit regime and continued closure of Palestinian institutions - increase Jewish Israeli presence in East Jerusalem, weaken the Palestinian community in the city, impede Palestinian urban development and separate East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank."

Hooahguy
08-03-2009, 15:16
an EU report....
oh wow that says a lot. :rolleyes:

Centurion1
08-03-2009, 15:24
^^ Now no insulting the EU, they mean well.......... I think.

I am telling you that there was much more support for an Israeli state tribesman, because of the holocaust. Americans especially. Truman was adamant on it and demanded it. Probably because they were guilty about all the Jews they revoked entry from in the 30's.

Using Ben-gurion as an example that the Jews didn't receive Israel as a result of the holocaust doesn't make sense. They NEVER would have gotten that state in the 40's if it wasn't for the holocaust.

Tribesman
08-03-2009, 18:44
an EU report....
oh wow that says a lot.
Oh wow would you like a UN report a US report or even an Israeli report .
All you are demonstrating hooah is a blind reaction based on being Jewish.
Look at the facts, according to these religious settler nutcases you ain't even Jewish so why are you supporting the fruitcakes?
Oh sorry to add that these fruitcakes are anti-israeli too as they deny the existance of the State of Israel.
Look at the nutters you are argueing for then come back and attempt to argue their position.

Beirut
08-03-2009, 19:02
They NEVER would have gotten that state in the 40's if it wasn't for the holocaust.

The Zionists would have started a war sooner or later to take over Palestine. It might have taken until the 1950s but it definitely would have happened. They forecasted it themselves. They also said the UN partition of Palestine was only a foot-in-the-door to them, a first step to taking over all the land once they formed an army.

World war or no, Holocaust or no, UN endorsement or no, the Zionists were fully committed to taking over Palestine by force. They said so.

Tribesman
08-03-2009, 19:36
They said so.
Come on , you can't take religious extremists at their word , look at that mayor who said there would be an earthquake sent by *od if the poofs had a party in Jerusalem.:dizzy2:

HoreTore
08-03-2009, 19:55
Come on , you can't take religious extremists at their word , look at that mayor who said there would be an earthquake sent by *od if the poofs had a party in Jerusalem.:dizzy2:

The early zionism didn't have all that much to do with religion though.

Nor was it originally about palestine either...

Tribesman
08-03-2009, 20:31
Nor was it originally about palestine either...
OK given the direction of one form of zionism from then could you equate that approach to a system they used to have in South Africa?
Damn , sorry I almost missed the oppertunity .........could you equate it with a proposed policy from the crazy neo-nazis in the BNP

Comment: Tribes', just state your point. The leading questions are more mocking than humorous and are too likely to bait others. Thanks. SF

HoreTore
08-03-2009, 21:02
OK given the direction of one form of zionism from then could you equate that approach to a system they used to have in South Africa?
Damn , sorry I almost missed the oppertunity .........could you equate it with a proposed policy from the crazy neo-nazis in the BNP

Comment: Tribes', just state your point. The leading questions are more mocking than humorous and are too likely to bait others. Thanks. SF

I sometimes wonder what would've happened if Lenin had lived just a few more years, long enough to create the jewish state he wanted in Russia...

It would possibly become a disaster with operation barbarossa though.

Beirut
08-03-2009, 21:57
The early zionism didn't have all that much to do with religion though.

Nor was it originally about palestine either...

Why would you say that?

Centurion1
08-04-2009, 01:51
Zionists are extremists. The IRA says it will kill everyone in Northern Ireland if it is not returned to Ireland but i do not believe every Irishman wants the entire population of NI dead do I. You are making a blanket statement off the words of some radicals.

Jolt
08-04-2009, 02:08
an EU report....
oh wow that says a lot. :rolleyes:

That is the most strange counter-argument I ever saw.

If not an EU report, then you would value a report by whom? The Israeli government? The US? The Palestinians?

As far as I can see, the EU has been the most ambivalent of all major participants in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, therefore they should have the most credit of all the participants as they are the less inclined to take sides.

Centurion1
08-04-2009, 02:10
^ The UN

And you would understand the statement if you were a relatively conservative American. plus, it was a sarcastic joke.

Jolt
08-04-2009, 02:20
The UN? The same UN I believe the Israelis were fighting over with some months ago, saying that they (UN) lied about that accident in the school during Gaza's invasion? Ok.

If it was a sarcastic joke, then he didn't attempt to argue against the conclusions of the report.

Louis VI the Fat
08-04-2009, 03:46
That is the most strange counter-argument I ever saw.Well I would not even qualify it as 'an argument'.



Meanwhile, those fanatical hordes of terrorist are at it again. The religion of peace attacks peaceful Israeli's, stooping as low as using nazi symbolism and murder against teenage Jewish kids:



TEL AVIV - Israeli police were hunting on Sunday for a masked man who opened fire at a gay youth club in Tel Aviv, killing two people in an attack that struck fear among the liberal city's homosexual community.

The black-clad gunman used a pistol to target the group of young gays and lesbians at the entrance to the community centre in the heart of Israel's commercial capital late on Saturday and then fled, police and witnesses said. A teenage girl and a man in his 20s were killed on the spot and 15 people were wounded, three seriously, police said, adding that a manhunt has been launched for the assailant.

[...]

Gays in Israel, particularly men, often encounter hostility from ultra-Orthodox Jews who consider homosexuality an "abomination." "It is not surprising that such a crime can be committed given the incitement of hatred against the homosexual community," the president of Tel Aviv's gay and lesbian community, Mai Pelem, told reporters.

In the past, swastikas have been daubed at the entrance to the gay and lesbian community centre in an attempt to stigmatise homosexuals. "In our worst nightmares we could not have imagined that the hatred against our community, which is hurting nobody, could go this far," the head of Israel's gay and lesbian national association, Mike Hamel, told journalists.http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/world/08/03/09/israel-manhunt-after-attack-gay-club

I demand a wall around Orthodox communities!

Hooahguy
08-04-2009, 03:56
hold on a minute- you mean ultra-orthodox. normal orthodox isnt that extreme. dont get the two mixed up.
IMO, the ultra orthodox are not much better than hamas, stopping short of launching rockets and suicide bombings.
i find it hard to love the ultras as fellow men/jews, because they believe that if you are not exactly like them you are going to :daisy:. they treat you as sub humans, and dont get me started on monsey and lakewood.
this horrid attack makes it even harder to like them.
i could go on all day on the ultras.

Louis VI the Fat
08-04-2009, 04:45
Ultra-orthodox it should've been.

(I should add that the killer has not been caught yet. If he ever will, I think he will not turn out to have been Palestinian. What's more, the very fact he managed to slip away leads me to suspect it was a Jewish Israeli)


Returning to demographics, Israel's demographic weapon, ultra-orthodoxism, might prove a Trojan Horse. Current projections predict that somewhere in the 2030's a majority of Israelis will be Arab and Ultra-Orthodox. Neither of which are beholden to the state of Israel. Israel is sitting on a time-bomb. Today's settlers in East-Jerusalem, displacing Arabians, might not turn out to be Israel's safeguard, but its undoing.


In 1960, 85 percent of primary school pupils were in either national or national-religious school streams, with the remainder in ultra-Orthodox or Arab school streams. This rate fell to 74 percent in 1980 and 54 percent in 2006.

About two weeks ago, Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics reported that in just five years, their enrollment rate would fall to 50 percent. In other words, as of 2013, today's majority will become a minority in the schools - and within a few years, this will also happen within the general population.

To these numbers one could add some data published by the Israel Defense Forces last week. In 2006, the rate of Israeli men drafted into the army from among all male 18-year-old Israeli residents fell to just 55 percent. The rate of conscription among Jewish men is falling by about one percentage point a year. The writing is on the wall. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/886353.html

Hooahguy
08-04-2009, 04:55
what i think will happen is that eventually the ultras, and even arabs will be forced to serve like everyone else. as of now they are exempt, while they (the ultras, that is) leech from the land.
the problem lies in the fact that many ultras want o live in israel but yet dont want to contribute anything back.

Incongruous
08-04-2009, 07:35
Absolutely, right. horetore all you are doing is taking in one side without the other. Overall, i believe the Palestinians have caused more hate. The Israelis wouldn't mind sharing their country with people who aren't bent on destroying their race and religion. Yeah, the Palestinians are totally innocent..........


You believe, why don't you back it up with something? Perhaps a well devised and increadibly detailed military campaign akin to Operation Cast Lead? I doubt it...

I believe HoreTore has made it abundantly clar what he thinks of terrorist organisations, he dislikes them.

Ironside
08-04-2009, 10:01
what i think will happen is that eventually the ultras, and even arabs will be forced to serve like everyone else. as of now they are exempt, while they (the ultras, that is) leech from the land.
the problem lies in the fact that many ultras want o live in israel but yet dont want to contribute anything back.

And that will absolutly not be even worse for the stability of the country and have absolutly no effect on the Israeli-Palestinian relations... :juggle2:

Fragony
08-04-2009, 10:18
You believe, why don't you back it up with something?

a school play! How adorable!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0cLdsdoNDs

Children TV palestinian style, what to say what to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPr1BV5Yj3k&NR=1

diediediedie, that's to say.

Tribesman
08-04-2009, 10:42
The IRA says it will kill everyone in Northern Ireland if it is not returned to Ireland
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


Well done Frag, MEMRI got a lot of flak over its "translations" in that clip didn't it .
Then again one should wonder about the wisdom of posting material from a fruitcake who claims to not be a racist but believes that the British are superior to all others.

Fragony
08-04-2009, 10:55
Can't just decide that the translations are incorrect, they have to be it first. There are tons of video's like this, https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Hamas+mouse&search_type=&aq=f you just can't see them. Or can you actually see them but just ignore them? I take it the first video has the wrong music? Might be on to something there.

For Israel haters the palestinians are like pokemon, got to excuse them all.

By the way, if this Memri is some white surpremist muppet, on a scale on 0 to 10 how likely is it that he did the translation.

Hooahguy
08-04-2009, 13:45
And that will absolutly not be even worse for the stability of the country and have absolutly no effect on the Israeli-Palestinian relations... :juggle2:
i neversaid it was a good thing.

Tribesman
08-04-2009, 15:26
Can't just decide that the translations are incorrect, they have to be it first.
Fragony your memory is failing you , can't you remember the controversy about Memris very strange Farfour translations ?
Didn't their translation of "annihilate the Jews" as used in that clip turn out to be "they are shooting us":oops:


By the way, if this Memri is some white surpremist muppet
I refer to the person who posted the clips , MegaBrit:idea2:


There are tons of video's like this
And what do we get as the first? Not Memri but PNW , another zionist propoganda outfit , very reliable.

Fragony
08-04-2009, 15:47
And what do we get as the first? Not Memri but PNW , another zionist propoganda outfit , very reliable.

Yaya jews controling the media and all that, I thought the jews were supposed to be good at that but everybody is bending over for the salaFIST and everybody takes every word Hamas seriously unless they say they want to kill all jews then it is just a matter of speech.

Whilst I don't doubt what you are trying to say, I think the quoted (and removed) chant is just a trifle offensive. BG

In my streets, screw them.

Tribesman
08-04-2009, 16:43
Yaya jews controling the media and all that
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Pathetic Frag .
Whats the matter , have you remembered the translation issue and realised you can't make any sensible response?:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Fragony
08-04-2009, 16:49
Yes that is how you do that, you pick something out to change the subject, but you even picked the wrong thing. Because you are saying that palestinian TV isn't antisemetic. The educational system isn't antisemetic. Or does all that anti-semitism just exist in my head, am I really sick, and is everybody having a blast while I am charging padded walls.

Tribesman
08-04-2009, 17:01
Or does all that anti-semitism just exist in my head, am I really sick,
Hmmmmm......You are always ranting about semitic people aren't you:yes:

Fragony
08-04-2009, 18:26
beats semantics

Seamus Fermanagh
08-04-2009, 19:52
beats semantics

I don't know about that. A 3-way battle between Chomsky, Korzybinski, & Saussure might be a fun time.

Beskar
08-04-2009, 19:55
I know this might get me flamed, but why can't there be a one-state solution? Couldn't they just do a secular government on the mandate of the people, or do they both have to be religious?

HoreTore
08-04-2009, 20:05
I know this might get me flamed, but why can't there be a one-state solution? Couldn't they just do a secular government on the mandate of the people, or do they both have to be religious?

IMO, a one-state solution is the only solution.

Until the Israelis and the Palestinians learn to live and work together, there will be no peace.

Hooahguy
08-04-2009, 20:25
I know this might get me flamed, but why can't there be a one-state solution? Couldn't they just do a secular government on the mandate of the people, or do they both have to be religious?
because there are more arabs and they would just vote out all the jews and all your dreams of a one state solution go kaput.

HoreTore
08-04-2009, 20:41
because there are more arabs and they would just vote out all the jews and all your dreams of a one state solution go kaput.

When/if they learn to live in peace, there will be no need to vote anyone out.

Hooahguy
08-04-2009, 20:52
when/if is the key.

HoreTore
08-04-2009, 20:57
when/if is the key.

Of course, it can't be done right now. But there won't be any peace until it happens.

Seamus Fermanagh
08-05-2009, 01:29
Of course, it can't be done right now. But there won't be any peace until it happens.

Ye gods and little fishes. You and I actually share the same view of the future end-state wherein peace (relatively at least) can actually occur.

Jolt
08-05-2009, 02:01
Thing is, many of the two-state solution grab themselves to the past example of what happened in Lebanon, and the general Lebanese history after its independence. And truth to their argument, Lebanon was a country much like what people want in a joint Israeli-Palestinian state, which is equitable quota of power among Jews and Arabs. As such, after its founding Lebanon had a Christian President and a Muslim PM. The interests of both groups started to diverge on a matter of issues. While muslims wanted to bring the country away from the USA and more into Arab integrationism, the Christians wanted to maintain the pro-Western status of Lebanon. Of course the Civil War in Lebanon was also between Christians and Muslims, and Israel's two-state supporters say that a single state would lead to internal strife much like Lebanon has suffered, if not more, since old grudges are not forgotten.

I for one, view it as the ideal sollution, but I find it too difficult to achieve. As hooahguy well said, the creation of Israel was done with selfish interests. A country for the Jews by the Jews, as such, they are not willing to share power with anyone.

Hooahguy
08-05-2009, 02:25
while you may state it as selfish, it remains a place where jews will always be allowed in.
during the Holocaust, most countries closed thier doors to refugees of the Holocaust, ie the St. Louis incident, and thus, many Jews who could have been saved were murdered. now, if there was an Israel, a country for jews by jews, would there have been as many deaths in the Holocaust? i doubt it.

Beskar
08-05-2009, 07:18
I think the main issue is people separating themselves from each other. If people just worked together, none of these problems would exist.

Correct me if I am wrong, I can't remember the name of the city, but there is a city in Israel where Muslims, Christians and Jews just live together happy with no problems. Why can't it all just be like that.

Samurai Waki
08-05-2009, 07:51
Israel would have been a miserable place to live if 10,000,000 people lived there, and certainly wouldn't have gotten the food aid to support those numbers during the war. Israel's creation before the holocaust would have proven to be a relatively fruitless endeavor, eventually they too would have also had to start turning people away. It was only after the war that Israel's creation could have effectively been done.

:shrug:

Anywho, I don't think the Two State situation will ever occur, and eventually I suppose that Palestine's one state idea will probably occur, effectively turning all Palestinian territory into Israeli territory. The Palestinians will have to go.

Beirut
08-05-2009, 10:57
The Palestinians will have to go.

The Israelis can leave first.

Hooahguy
08-05-2009, 13:25
The Israelis can leave first.
good luck with that.

Centurion1
08-05-2009, 15:00
The two state solution is doomed to failure. And a one state solution is the real goal, but good luck with that. maybe in the future.

Jolt
08-05-2009, 23:37
One thing I find amusing with the one-state solution, will be the day the Israeli-Palestinian parliament approves the entry of Israel-Palestine into the Arab League. :laugh4:

Beirut
08-06-2009, 00:09
good luck with that.

Thank you. :cool:

Seamus Fermanagh
08-06-2009, 00:14
The one-state solution we are likely to see, I suspect, is as follows:

Over time, Palestinian arabs rein in some of the worst of their ultra-hardcore/terrorist types. Israel, wishing to encourage this, will allow greater rights and freedoms and more and more Palestinians will become Israeli citizens. Over time, they will acquire more and more political power, eventually coming to dominate the electorate by a 60-40 margin in terms of ethnic background. Palestine will retain it's "haven for Jews" clause as a constitutional component, but will otherwise function by majority rule (albeit the Knesset or its renamed successor will continue its tradition of balkanized coalition governments).

Samurai Waki
08-06-2009, 00:35
The one-state solution we are likely to see, I suspect, is as follows:

Over time, Palestinian arabs rein in some of the worst of their ultra-hardcore/terrorist types. Israel, wishing to encourage this, will allow greater rights and freedoms and more and more Palestinians will become Israeli citizens. Over time, they will acquire more and more political power, eventually coming to dominate the electorate by a 60-40 margin in terms of ethnic background. Palestine will retain it's "haven for Jews" clause as a constitutional component, but will otherwise function by majority rule (albeit the Knesset or its renamed successor will continue its tradition of balkanized coalition governments).

That would indeed be the best case scenario, however unlikely.

Centurion1
08-06-2009, 00:51
You may think that is the best case scenario. i don't think so...........

Jolt
08-06-2009, 05:04
The one-state solution we are likely to see, I suspect, is as follows:

Over time, Palestinian arabs rein in some of the worst of their ultra-hardcore/terrorist types. Israel, wishing to encourage this, will allow greater rights and freedoms and more and more Palestinians will become Israeli citizens. Over time, they will acquire more and more political power, eventually coming to dominate the electorate by a 60-40 margin in terms of ethnic background. Palestine will retain it's "haven for Jews" clause as a constitutional component, but will otherwise function by majority rule (albeit the Knesset or its renamed successor will continue its tradition of balkanized coalition governments).

I believe such a scenario will begin to fail at the boldeed part.

HoreTore
08-06-2009, 07:09
The one-state solution we are likely to see, I suspect, is as follows:

Over time, Palestinian arabs rein in some of the worst of their ultra-hardcore/terrorist types. Israel, wishing to encourage this, will allow greater rights and freedoms and more and more Palestinians will become Israeli citizens. Over time, they will acquire more and more political power, eventually coming to dominate the electorate by a 60-40 margin in terms of ethnic background. Palestine will retain it's "haven for Jews" clause as a constitutional component, but will otherwise function by majority rule (albeit the Knesset or its renamed successor will continue its tradition of balkanized coalition governments).

Well, if Israel doesn't begin to rein in their own crazies as well, they could well have a civil war on their hands, in addition to the arab crazies...

They've already had assassinations, terrorist actions, violent protests aimed at the Israeli government and society.... Who's to say it can't escalate much further?

Beirut
08-06-2009, 11:22
Well, if Israel doesn't begin to rein in their own crazies as well, they could well have a civil war on their hands, in addition to the arab crazies...

They've already had assassinations, terrorist actions, violent protests aimed at the Israeli government and society.... Who's to say it can't escalate much further?

They've been fostering civil war between Palestinians for years. Let's see how they like it themselves.

Fragony
08-06-2009, 13:05
They've been fostering civil war between Palestinians for years. Let's see how they like it themselves.

Palestinians don't need any fostering. As we have seen, put a wall between the Palestinians and the jews and they start killing each other. Not that they have been killing each other forever, so did we, I guess they are great people because we killed each other. But as long as you can kill someone your primitive bloodlust has been tempered and you can go home to be nice to the wife for a change. It's great fun, they plead for mercy and all that and then you get to tear them into tiny bits with a machine gun, with some extra luck you can cut each other up with an electric saw. Doesn't need to be electric of course, oldschool saw hurts just that much more, the wife will be all the more grateful.

Hamas Hamas. Sadistic :daisy:

I feel sorry for the Palestinians who aren't sadistic :daisy:

Seamus Fermanagh
08-06-2009, 17:29
I believe such a scenario will begin to fail at the boldeed part.

Just to be clear, when I said "over time" I fully expected that time to be measured in decades, not years. I am envisaging a very gradual assimilation.

I do believe Israeli sentiment will shift towards a more progressive treatment of its own arab citizens over time. They are too much of the West not to be affected by notions of personal rights and a sense of war weariness. Over decades, this will sap the ardor of the bulk of the Jewish population and yield the results I noted.

An Israeli civil war is less likely, I would deem, but would serve the more aggressive components of Hamas and Fatah well. An Israel divided by civil war would be blotted out and command/control difficulties would very possibly nullify the "Samson" option described elsewhere.

Crazed Rabbit
08-06-2009, 18:35
They've been fostering civil war between Palestinians for years. Let's see how they like it themselves.

You know, Beirut, I just saw how in that Hells Angel thread you wanted to "disappear" the biker gangs in your province after they killed one child. I can't blame you for that. But perhaps you should think about how Israelis feel when Palestinian terrorists have been attacking their children, their weddings, their bus stops, their cafes, killing everyone they could, for years. The biker gangs you detest weren't trying to kill a child, but the Palestinian terrorists, the government of Gaza, do try to kill as many as they can. Maybe you should try to put yourself in an Israeli's position.

CR

HoreTore
08-06-2009, 21:32
You know, Beirut, I just saw how in that Hells Angel thread you wanted to "disappear" the biker gangs in your province after they killed one child. I can't blame you for that. But perhaps you should think about how Israelis feel when Palestinian terrorists have been attacking their children, their weddings, their bus stops, their cafes, killing everyone they could, for years. The biker gangs you detest weren't trying to kill a child, but the Palestinian terrorists, the government of Gaza, do try to kill as many as they can. Maybe you should try to put yourself in an Israeli's position.

A major flaw in that theory, CR: Beirut's county haven't done anything wrong against HA.

Israels crimes against the palestinians are getting to many to list.

Hooahguy
08-06-2009, 22:09
A major flaw in that theory, CR: Beirut's county haven't done anything wrong against HA.
well duh. he lives in canada. joke. that was a joke. and that doesnt make CRs argument any less valid.

Samurai Waki
08-06-2009, 22:28
When it comes to Israel, people are very good at creating double standards :laugh4:

Megas Methuselah
08-06-2009, 22:36
You know, Beirut, I just saw how in that Hells Angel thread you wanted to "disappear" the biker gangs in your province after they killed one child. I can't blame you for that. But perhaps you should think about how Israelis feel when Palestinian terrorists have been attacking their children, their weddings, their bus stops, their cafes, killing everyone they could, for years. The biker gangs you detest weren't trying to kill a child, but the Palestinian terrorists, the government of Gaza, do try to kill as many as they can. Maybe you should try to put yourself in an Israeli's position.

CR

:inquisitive:

You can easily turn that around and put yourself in the position of the Palestinians.

Hooahguy
08-06-2009, 22:38
:inquisitive:

You can easily turn that around and put yourself in the position of the Palestinians.
his point was that Beirut was only seeing it from one side.

Ironside
08-06-2009, 22:39
You know, Beirut, I just saw how in that Hells Angel thread you wanted to "disappear" the biker gangs in your province after they killed one child. I can't blame you for that. But perhaps you should think about how Israelis feel when Palestinian terrorists have been attacking their children, their weddings, their bus stops, their cafes, killing everyone they could, for years. The biker gangs you detest weren't trying to kill a child, but the Palestinian terrorists, the government of Gaza, do try to kill as many as they can. Maybe you should try to put yourself in an Israeli's position.

CR

You are aware that the Israelis have been the same stuff for years, and more effective on that to boot? There's a slight catch 22 there.
Not that I find the idea of an Israeli civil war as anything else than horrible and disastrous. :skull:

Anyway does anybody have a good link to whats happening on the West Bank? The hope for peace is best there, despite the expanding settlements and increasingly aggresive settlers.

All I know is that appearently they done exellent work in de-corrupting the Palestinian security forces, even if bribing off the old one to retirement is quite expensive.

Megas Methuselah
08-06-2009, 22:40
his point was that Beirut was only seeing it from one side.

Ah, yes.

Tribesman
08-06-2009, 23:41
Palestinians don't need any fostering. As we have seen
If it doesn't need fostering then why did Israel finance the "evil" Hamas against the "oh so lovely moderate" Fatah
Errrrrr.....come on Frag you must have an answer...
Errrr...there must be an answer.....
OK the answer maybe that you is talking bollox....:yes:.....again...:yes:

Fragony
08-07-2009, 07:19
If you are a member of the UN you finance Hamas, your point was? And they didn't need that much encouragement, doesn't really matter what you kill as long as you can kill, I don't know why it is so fun but some must think it is.

EDIT: We don't show videos of death and murder here, thank you. If people doubt your point, they can PM you for the link. BG

Banquo's Ghost
08-07-2009, 07:41
If you are a member of the UN you finance Hamas, your point was?

I believe Tribesman was referring to the age-old "The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend Gambit; Backfire Clause" (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html).

Fragony
08-07-2009, 07:57
"When Israel first encountered Islamists in Gaza in the 1970s and '80s, they seemed focused on studying the Quran, not on confrontation with Israel"

:laugh4:

Read the Hamas founding principles and try to say that 3 times without laughing/crying.

Beirut
08-07-2009, 11:31
You know, Beirut, I just saw how in that Hells Angel thread you wanted to "disappear" the biker gangs in your province after they killed one child. I can't blame you for that. But perhaps you should think about how Israelis feel when Palestinian terrorists have been attacking their children, their weddings, their bus stops, their cafes, killing everyone they could, for years. The biker gangs you detest weren't trying to kill a child, but the Palestinian terrorists, the government of Gaza, do try to kill as many as they can. Maybe you should try to put yourself in an Israeli's position.

CR

As soon as I pack up my family and call my friends from all over the world and then we all fly thousands of miles away from our homes to Hells Angeland and set up shop in their front yard, and then we lock up the natives and torture them and kill them and starve them and treat them and their children and their children's children like animals for decades, violating every tenet of decency and humanity, then you can compare the two.

For now, you cannot compare the two.

The Hells Angels are criminals who should be imprisoned; the Palestinains are an imprisoned people who need to be freed.

Beirut
08-07-2009, 11:41
his point was that Beirut was only seeing it from one side.

I am seeing it from the side of the people who had their land stolen, their people tortured, murdered, imprisoned without trial, denied human rights, starved, beaten, bombed, their homes stolen or bulldozed or blown up, and who have been treated as less than human by the entire world for the past fifty-years.

I blame everyone. The UN, the Arab states, and most of all the Zionists and the Israelis.

Fragony
08-08-2009, 12:11
I do not know this site and I have no idea if this is true,

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2009/05/ben-dror-yemini-the-jewish-nakba-expulsi/

is it?

Tribesman
08-08-2009, 14:19
is it?
It does contain some good stuff , but also contains a hell of a lot of bollox.
I am surprised as Yemeni usually does good writting , perhaps them solomonian loonies saving the future of jews by treading the streets of Holy Jerulaslem in errrr....Boston did a bad translation.

Fragony
08-08-2009, 14:38
Which being what? I simply cannot believe this is new to me.

Jolt
08-08-2009, 17:42
Heh, that is quite a distorted view he attempts to give the jewish victims of history. He somehow manages to put massacres from before 1000 AD and the nakba on teh same page, which is ludicrous.

Obviously, using his reasoning, I could also pour into this thread thousands upon thousands of examples of jewish massacres in Christian countries, as example that Jews will not ever be able to live in Christian lands and that, thus, because of such history Jews cannot live peacefully under Christian countries since they are bound to be sliced and diced this century or the next one.
Because of that history, he would believe that it would be perfectly legitimate to establish "The Western Israel" in Iberia (Which has a gigantic history in Jewish culture), and it would be consequentless the expulsion of Spanish and Portuguese off their own lands, for the establishment of settlements to recieve the Jews.
Afterwards, neither Portuguese nor Spanish could even dare of complaining, lest they forgot what the Jews suffered in those lands 5 centuries ago, and in France, and in Italy and in Germany in the Medieval Age, etc.

Kralizec
08-09-2009, 21:34
If Obama is serious about his demand that Israel stops the expansion of settlements, he should simply threaten to stop all US aid if they don't comply. Israelis who think that he should mind his own business should remember that the USA is under no obligation to support them financially.

Beirut
08-09-2009, 21:48
If Obama is serious about his demand that Israel stops the expansion of settlements, he should simply threaten to stop all US aid if they don't comply. Israelis who think that he should mind his own business should remember that the USA is under no obligation to support them financially.

AIPAC would have him boiled in oil. And Congress and the Senate would rather rent their daughters to the biker gangs than cross AIPAC and the Jewish lobby in Washington.

Kralizec
08-09-2009, 21:53
Again, if he was serious about it (and about "change" in general) he'd simply give them the finger and do it anyway.

Hooahguy
08-09-2009, 21:56
plus the CIA/mossad have a pretty big reliance on each other. you can read up on it, youd be surprised.

Beirut
08-10-2009, 00:36
plus the CIA/mossad have a pretty big reliance on each other. you can read up on it, youd be surprised.

Seymour Hersh wrote about Israeli intelligence officers being in the room when the NRO was tasking KH-11 recon satellites. The American officer who spoke to Hersh said he nearly barfed when he heard the guy was going to be allowed to stay in the room and see and hear everything.

There might be a relationship between the two, but everyone knows which side is getting the gravy and which side is simply getting it.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-10-2009, 02:21
plus the CIA/mossad have a pretty big reliance on each other. you can read up on it, youd be surprised.

You mean like the American army and the Israeli army?

I somehow doubt Mossad is able to penetrate the Arab countries that effectively, if they were surely the Israeli's wouldn't need to be so heavy handed?

Tribesman
08-10-2009, 03:12
plus the CIA/mossad have a pretty big reliance on each other. you can read up on it, youd be surprised.
You mean like Rosen Franklin Pollard Kadish?

Hooahguy
08-10-2009, 03:42
I somehow doubt Mossad is able to penetrate the Arab countries that effectively
whoooo youd be surprised. :book:


You mean like Rosen Franklin Pollard Kadish?
well, not exactly. tribesman, you say you have the book "Gideons spies." look up the story about the ten Pakistani scientists.

LittleGrizzly
08-10-2009, 05:51
plus the CIA/mossad have a pretty big reliance on each other. you can read up on it, youd be surprised.

Im sure they provide some useful stuff (though i would assume more comes from America's to Israel than the other way around)

Of course pulling that financial assitance would mean over time that the intelligence mossad does provide is less needed because your removing enemies...

I find most of the benefits America does get from Israel seem to be required because of the fact that Israel causes America to be at war with Muslim extremists...

It's like joining in on someone else's fights all the time becuase they give you plasters for your wounds afterwards... "Billy why do you joining in fights with Johnny ?"
"Check out all these free plasters i have been getting, only a fool would stop this gravy train"



Sorry the essay at the start... forgot


PAYING ONE'S DUES

This one sounds good... though i would switch away from Israel being a main funder of it, they can make a decent contribution im sure and although it seems fair why give out more reasons to say no. Europe, America and other rich nations can cover the money side of things as far as im concerned. Citing the fact we aren't asking for much funding for this could be used to encourage them to agree to other parts...





THE RIGHT OF RETURN

Im in agreement with this part... seems unfair somewhat upon the Palestinians but im sure some nice compensation and/or a visa for a rich foriegn country would smooth that out somewhat...



THE ARCHITECTURE OF PEACE

I liked this bit, one thing that could possibly be added there...


a peacekeeping force could help (in conjunction with the Palestinian Authority's) to police the Palestinian area thisd would help on a few fronts. First it would be reassuring to the Israeli's, secondly it could be helpful to the Palestinian authoritys to have a trusted force that doesn't have loyalty to anyone but it. Lastly in the event of an attack it could provide a neutral view from the ground of how and why it happened...



BEING COPERNICUS


Good, liked this bit.


Also can i take this oppurtunity to ask why the EU is considered so biased against the Israelis...

The way i see it is this

Israel - America - EU - Arab League - Palestine

The only position considered acceptable by (a lot of) those on the Israeli side seems to be the American one but don't people realise that USA is as biased towards Israel as the Arab league is towards Palestine...

The EU seems to be the big player who doesn't lean heavily towards one side... I personally get the impression that they lean towards Israel and this is somewhat understandable considering the place is a democracy and is a rich country (at least comparitively to the Palestinians) that trades with the European countries.

Out of the big players who have an interest (Im assuming the Chinese aren't paticularly intrested) the Europeans are the nearest thing to a neutral third party we have... so why the assumption of bias among Israeli supporters ?

Im starting to get the real feeling that the democratic elected leaders on both the Israeli and Palestinian could not achieve peace no matter how much they wanted to, the continuing situation on both sides means elected leaders are called to defend thier people (this usually involves attacking the other side) which causes the other side to call for the goverment to defend them... thus the cycle continues...

The only real way i see things changing are either... dictators intrested in peace somehow sieze power in both states (seems highly unlikely) two extremely charismatic charming popular leaders who are very intrested in peace somehow get swept to power with big majoritys... (also unlikely)

Outside of that... a miracle... or mass death on one side I can't see things changing for a few decades yet...

I would happily shoot the hardliners on both sides personally. We ask a series of question around the issue and if they insist that thier side deserves alot more than ther side they get shot, several months later the much reduced populations of Israel and Palestine vote in moderate goverments and then we can combat the menace of fundamentalist Islam much more effectively... (an overhyped threat anyway...)

Jolt
08-10-2009, 08:09
Sorry the essay at the start... forgot


PAYING ONE'S DUES

This one sounds good... though i would switch away from Israel being a main funder of it, they can make a decent contribution im sure and although it seems fair why give out more reasons to say no. Europe, America and other rich nations can cover the money side of things as far as im concerned. Citing the fact we aren't asking for much funding for this could be used to encourage them to agree to other parts...


Its a fair point, one which I have thought through heavily myself. But ultimatly I realized that since Israel was a huge part of the problem, then a huge part of the responsability of "Paying one's due" falls on Israel's shoulders. In any case, if Abraham told that the solution to a peaceful existence of Israel was paying up enough money to make the Palestinians who were victims in this whole conflict, somewhat mildly disposed towards having Israel being their neighbour, I have no doubt we'd see Israel fulfill all its part in a short notice.



THE RIGHT OF RETURN

Im in agreement with this part... seems unfair somewhat upon the Palestinians but im sure some nice compensation and/or a visa for a rich foriegn country would smooth that out somewhat...

It is unfair. Unfortunatly, what's done is done, and all governments must act responsibly to end the oppression and misery in which Palestinians have been subject to under Israeli occupation, and give Israeli's the security they coveted for so long. If that means properly conpensating the Palestinians who have no right to return? So be it. It is only fair and proper, and in accordance with human dignity. Something the Palestinians haven't been able to enjoy for a long time.


THE ARCHITECTURE OF PEACE

I liked this bit, one thing that could possibly be added there...


a peacekeeping force could help (in conjunction with the Palestinian Authority's) to police the Palestinian area thisd would help on a few fronts. First it would be reassuring to the Israeli's, secondly it could be helpful to the Palestinian authoritys to have a trusted force that doesn't have loyalty to anyone but it. Lastly in the event of an attack it could provide a neutral view from the ground of how and why it happened...

That would be counter-productive in my opinion. Both sides are so much radicalized, that such a move would only anger mostly the Palestinian side, since the perception of the Palestinian society is that a peace treaty's inevitable result is the assumption (As to assume control) of the full sovereignty inside their territorial boundaries, and anything less than that will constitute a betrayal.
Further a peace keeping force wouldn't have that much support in Western nations either. You never saw Peace Keeping forces in Gaza or West Bank during the intermitent conflicts when peace wasn't achieved, and placing a peace keeping force during/after the signing of the peace deal would be seen as highly hypocrite, and would be capitalized upon by the extreme groups of the Palestinian society.


BEING COPERNICUS


Good, liked this bit.


Also can i take this oppurtunity to ask why the EU is considered so biased against the Israelis...

The way i see it is this

Israel - America - EU - Arab League - Palestine

The only position considered acceptable by (a lot of) those on the Israeli side seems to be the American one but don't people realise that USA is as biased towards Israel as the Arab league is towards Palestine...

The EU seems to be the big player who doesn't lean heavily towards one side... I personally get the impression that they lean towards Israel and this is somewhat understandable considering the place is a democracy and is a rich country (at least comparitively to the Palestinians) that trades with the European countries.

Out of the big players who have an interest (Im assuming the Chinese aren't paticularly intrested) the Europeans are the nearest thing to a neutral third party we have... so why the assumption of bias among Israeli supporters ?

Im starting to get the real feeling that the democratic elected leaders on both the Israeli and Palestinian could not achieve peace no matter how much they wanted to, the continuing situation on both sides means elected leaders are called to defend thier people (this usually involves attacking the other side) which causes the other side to call for the goverment to defend them... thus the cycle continues...

The only real way i see things changing are either... dictators intrested in peace somehow sieze power in both states (seems highly unlikely) two extremely charismatic charming popular leaders who are very intrested in peace somehow get swept to power with big majoritys... (also unlikely)

Outside of that... a miracle... or mass death on one side I can't see things changing for a few decades yet...

I would happily shoot the hardliners on both sides personally. We ask a series of question around the issue and if they insist that thier side deserves alot more than ther side they get shot, several months later the much reduced populations of Israel and Palestine vote in moderate goverments and then we can combat the menace of fundamentalist Islam much more effectively... (an overhyped threat anyway...)

Indeed, from a simplified point of view I agree with the first part. EU is clearly the most neutral party actively involved in the pursuit of peace in the region of all involved. Unfortunatly both sides (As hooahguy demonstrated) take the approach of "Either you back us unconditionally, or you're against us". But the author refers that, when he says that only Palestinians and Israeli's understand the uniqueness of their own situation.

In any case, the problem with shooting hardliners is that there are simply too many on both sides. And the fact that each hardliners action against the opposing side, spawns more hardliners on the opposing sides they attack. Thus the reason behind the possibility of ignoring attacks. That can only be achieved by Israel, as the Palestinians lack the basic needs of a human being in the modern age to be able to ignore being out of job, food, water, etc.



EDIT: In all the fuss, I forgot to post here a picture I found very funny. It's mostly about the Georgia war but since it has implications with this conflict, here goes xD
https://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu150/Joltie/WithdrawGeorgiaIraqPalestine.gif

LittleGrizzly
08-10-2009, 09:45
1) Well I understand your point about paying thier dues but surely we should keep the Israeli concessions as limited as possible, whilst it may be fair im not sure if its practical...

We don't have to just try and sell this to the Israeli leader, he needs to be able to push this through Knesset, which I understand would be hugely difficult...

Not that money would be the biggest concern for the Israeli politicians but my point is why make the Israeli's do something other nations could do easily. We will have to ask what Israeli's consider far too much to make this happen as it is...

Money as a lesser issue and one the rich countrys could afford much more than the Israelis...

3) You do make a good point, I suppose they could be the new foriegn occupier to fight against. My main concern though is that as the peace is going through the hardcore as they did in the Britian IRA conflict will flare up and try to reignite the conflict. We need to limit this as much as possible... getting all this agreed to by the Israeli leader and then pushed through the Knesset will be a miracle as it is, unless God himself intervened I don't see the politicians being able to sustian to many attacks before they have to turn back to tough rhetoric and then surgical strikes and back to square 1 we go...

So maybe this peacekeeping force could act as some kind of border guard, that way they are fairly imposed on both peoples but only on the borders the rest of the country would be troop free....

We could sell this to both sides... for the palestinians the troops are there to watch out for those nasty settlers trying to steal land and reposses palestinians homes, for the israelis the troops are there to watch out for those nasty terrorists trying to launch rockets and blow themselves up...

I just think we need something to placate israel, as shown by Hoohah who is somewhat more moderate than some Israeli's, the whole turning of the cheek and sucking it up is unfair and why should they... so without something a few radicals could easily change the minds of even fairly moderate Israelis...

The whole with us or against us thing is a big problem for this conflict... both nations play up to the victim card of everyone (except one or two allies) being against them... personally i would put almost as much blame on the nations that are with them (USA, Iran, being the main ones i can think off)

TBH the shooting hardliners was just my little fantasy in my head, it wasnt a realistic plan, though it would also help solve space issues (Israel needs to naturally expand and Palestine is the most crowded place on earth) and it would be grizz unaffiliated to either side doing the shooting (giving them a common enemy to work against)

Tribesman
08-10-2009, 11:46
well, not exactly. tribesman, you say you have the book "Gideons spies."
Thats Thomas book where he primarily used a source that is described as being on a scale of 1to10 of reliablility a minus 8.

Hooahguy
08-10-2009, 13:29
jolt- that pic is huge. mind putting it in spoilers?

tribesman, i think its funny because you used him as a reliable source about a year ago. :dizzy2:

Tribesman
08-10-2009, 18:16
tribesman, i think its funny because you used him as a reliable source about a year ago.
No I didn't.
Think again and try and remember:idea2:

Hooahguy
08-10-2009, 18:43
no im pretty sure because we were talking about US and israeli relations right after the creation of israel and you made a reference from the book.

Tribesman
08-10-2009, 21:08
no im pretty sure because we were talking about US and israeli relations right after the creation of israel and you made a reference from the book.
Don't you mean you suggested people should read the book and I said I had :yes:

Hooahguy
08-10-2009, 21:45
well, yes that too, but then you made a reference.

Tribesman
08-10-2009, 22:05
well, yes that too, but then you made a reference.
Ah, but did I say it was a reliable source that I was referencing or did I say it was an interesting one?

Hooahguy
08-10-2009, 22:15
IRCC you said neither. but id take it youd only reference a reliable source in principle.

Seamus Fermanagh
08-11-2009, 05:10
The two of you would be better served to stop this ping-pong over a source threads ago and move the discussion forward.

Is this too much to ask?

Centurion1
08-12-2009, 02:41
...

Tribesman
08-12-2009, 07:34
^ seconded
Really?

The IRA says it will kill everyone in Northern Ireland if it is not returned to Ireland
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Centurion1
08-12-2009, 14:00
Sorry, it is wrong.

Ice
08-12-2009, 15:45
The one-state solution we are likely to see, I suspect, is as follows:

Over time, Palestinian arabs rein in some of the worst of their ultra-hardcore/terrorist types. Israel, wishing to encourage this, will allow greater rights and freedoms and more and more Palestinians will become Israeli citizens. Over time, they will acquire more and more political power, eventually coming to dominate the electorate by a 60-40 margin in terms of ethnic background. Palestine will retain it's "haven for Jews" clause as a constitutional component, but will otherwise function by majority rule (albeit the Knesset or its renamed successor will continue its tradition of balkanized coalition governments).

This.

I wish people would stop seeing this issue in black and white as it generally sickens me.

Hooahguy
08-12-2009, 16:39
This.

I wish people would stop seeing this issue in black and white as it generally sickens me.
better not talk to bopa then...
:laugh4:

HoreTore
08-12-2009, 17:21
better not talk to bopa then...
:laugh4:

Not quite sure you're the one to talk, Hooah ~;)

Hooahguy
08-12-2009, 17:31
Not quite sure you're the one to talk, Hooah ~;)
well actually ive moderated my views considerably since i got here....

Beirut
08-12-2009, 18:12
well actually ive moderated my views considerably since i got here....

Not me.

As the years go by and the Palestinians continue to live under the inhuman brutality of the Israelis, and the general contempt of the world at large, all I see is more and more Palestnian lives going down the toilet.

It's like watching an innocent man rot in prison; time does not soften the injustice, it only makes it worse.

Hooahguy
08-12-2009, 18:23
so i assume you are in the camp that says suicide bombings are ok?
if so, you and bopa are in good company.

EDIT: ps, innocent men dont blow themselves up, killing children who only wanted to get some pizza.

Ice
08-12-2009, 18:58
Not me.

As the years go by and the Palestinians continue to live under the inhuman brutality of the Israelis, and the general contempt of the world at large, all I see is more and more Palestnian lives going down the toilet.

It's like watching an innocent man rot in prison; time does not soften the injustice, it only makes it worse.

:rolleyes:

Beirut
08-12-2009, 20:00
so i assume you are in the camp that says suicide bombings are ok?

Against civilians? No, absolutely not.


EDIT: ps, innocent men dont blow themselves up, killing children who only wanted to get some pizza.

Neither do innocent men drop bombs on civilians, or fire tank shells into crowded markets, or murder UN peacekeepers.

Hooahguy
08-12-2009, 20:05
Against civilians? No, absolutely not.
good, i was just making sure. :sweatdrop:

Centurion1
08-13-2009, 02:00
Not me.

As the years go by and the Palestinians continue to live under the inhuman brutality of the Israelis, and the general contempt of the world at large, all I see is more and more Palestinian lives going down the toilet.

It's like watching an innocent man rot in prison; time does not soften the injustice, it only makes it worse.

Its a multifaceted issue. You can't look at only one side and ignore the other.


Against civilians? No, absolutely not.

when are suicide bombings ever ok and acceptable......

LittleGrizzly
08-13-2009, 03:36
when are suicide bombings ever ok and acceptable......

Against military targets... not really desirable but if the person chooses to do it you can't criticise it anymore than a regular bomb/missle

Beirut
08-13-2009, 11:08
Its a multifaceted issue. You can't look at only one side and ignore the other.

I'm certainly not ignoring the other side; they're the ones who are the root cause of all the problems. It would be difficult to ignore them.


when are suicide bombings ever ok and acceptable......

When they are used against military targets.

I understand that the idea of a suicide bombing may offend some people, but then the idea of someone pushing a button, killing dozens of people, and then going home for a beer offends some people as well.

I suppose there might be some merit in a person saying "My way of exploding your body into small bloody pieces in order to kill you is morally superior to your way of exploding my body into small bloody pieces in order to kill me", but someone will have to point it out for me. But I'm willing to listen.

HoreTore
08-13-2009, 13:11
when are suicide bombings ever ok and acceptable......

A suicide bomb is simply a weapon. A bomb. there's really nothing special about it, nothing more than an AK-47, C-4, penguin missiles, apache helicopters or whatver.

And the rules state that weapons are not to be used on civilians. But it's perfectly acceptable to use weapons against military targets, including civilian targets with a military application(like a bridge).

And do remember that suicide attacks have been around for milliennia. And when it's "our guys" doing it, we cheer for them.

rvg
08-13-2009, 14:05
And therein lies the problem: most suicide bombers target civvies.

Centurion1
08-13-2009, 14:09
rvg is right. Suicide bombers are fanatics for whatever cause they serve. So they are trying to cause fear in the mind of their enemies. So they target civilians. Also, there is less risk of failure in a civilian target.

Hooahguy
08-13-2009, 15:04
I'm certainly not ignoring the other side; they're the ones who are the root cause of all the problems. It would be difficult to ignore them.

you see Beirut, that is the problem with your thinking. anyone who thinks one side is completely to blame and the other is right, has a very immature and false view on the situation. this same thinking is what keeps the conflict going.
i used to think that way as well, but i changed, so now i see both sides. bickering about who started it gets us nowhere and is also very immature.
israel is right in the sense that it has a right to maintain security for its citizens. the palestinians have a right to have a country of their own and have the humanitarian aid it deserves.
BUT-
as long as israel creates illegal settlements in the west bank and blockades gaza, there will be no peace.
as long as the palestinians keep fighting and attacking civilians, there will be no peace or a state for them.

do i think that the israeli blockade on gaza is wrong? absolutely, 100 shipments of supplies a day for one of the most populated regions in the world is nowhere near enough.
but i also realize that israel has to check every single shipment of supplies for weapons and ammo that may be smuggled in, for the very reason that hamas and israel are still at war.

so to summarize, heres the way i see it:
both sides have committed wrongdoings. to blame one side and not the other for the situation is a very wrong thing to do and will only cause the conflict to go on.

Beirut
08-13-2009, 22:08
you see Beirut, that is the problem with your thinking. anyone who thinks one side is completely to blame and the other is right, has a very immature and false view on the situation.

Sometimes maturity is over rated. Sometimes objectivity is way over rated. Sometimes it really is necessary for someone to point the finger and say "you're wrong", just as you have done with me. You think my views on the situation are wrong and I respect that you have your views and you hold to them. My views, though it is doubtlessly redundant to express them, hold that the Zionists and the Israelis are directly to blame for the vast majority of the suffering of the palestinians. So much so, in my view, that it is more than acceptable to point the finger at them and say "you're wrong."


this same thinking is what keeps the conflict going.

What is keeping the conflict going is the brutal and inhuman intransigence of the Israelis, the egregious boneheadedness of American politicians, and the vicious and uncaring nature of the Arab states.


i used to think that way as well, but i changed, so now i see both sides. bickering about who started it gets us nowhere and is also very immature.

The past is the key to the present. And to say the Zionists started the whole mess is not immature at all, it is simply the truth, and knowing the truth has merit in its own right.


so to summarize, heres the way i see it:
both sides have committed wrongdoings. to blame one side and not the other for the situation is a very wrong thing to do and will only cause the conflict to go on.

What is causing the conflict to go on, as I mentioned, is a combination of Israeli, American, Arab, and world stupidity. The reason I don't blame the Palestinians is because I don't see the virtue in blaming someone for fighting back when everyone in the world is conspiring to, at best, keep them imprisoned forever, or at worst, killed off to the last man, woman, and child.

Hooahguy
08-13-2009, 22:13
but you must agree that palestinian agression is prolonging the conflict, right?

and judging by the world reaction to operation cast lead, i wouldnt say the whole world are against the palestinians.

Hax
08-13-2009, 22:28
rvg is right. Suicide bombers are fanatics for whatever cause they serve. So they are trying to cause fear in the mind of their enemies. So they target civilians. Also, there is less risk of failure in a civilian target.

Kamikaze pilots, Japan, World War II. Yes, and I'm referring to the actual pilots. Not the events in Korea or China (Nanking f.ex)

Beirut
08-13-2009, 22:29
but you must agree that palestinian agression is prolonging the conflict, right?

I don't think they should be shooting rockets into civilian neighbourhoods, no. It doesn't help things. But on the other hand, no matter what the Palestinians do, the Israelis will forever keep them prisoner in one way or another. The Palestinians know this, so in all reality what have they got to lose? And in a lose-lose situation you can either lie down and die or try to throw one last punch. The Palestinians are throwing a punch. Honestly, I can't blame them.

If I was a Palestinian, living as they live now, my first and last thought every day for the rest of my life would be "How can I hurt the Isrealis today?"

There is only one true victim in this play, and it isn't the Israelis.


and judging by the world reaction to operation cast lead, i wouldnt say the whole world are against the palestinians.

Lots of talking - very little walking. Isreal knows they will be admonished, and they also know it is only window dressing and won't amount to a hill o' beans. The F-15 purchases and the grant money and the bank loans and the international trade agreements won't stop for one cold second.

Hooahguy
08-13-2009, 22:49
But on the other hand, no matter what the Palestinians do, the Israelis will forever keep them prisoner in one way or another.
i strongly disagree. talk to some israelis. maybe a few hundred like i have (after all, i go there at least once a year for two weeks). 99% of them are more than willing to treat the palestinians as friends- once the palestinians stop being so aggressive. and no i wasnt mainly talking to the left wing activists within israel.
i see the point in why the newer generation of palestinians are so angry. all they ever hear is how horrible israel is, and because israel isnt letting in enough supplies to gaza, that only makes things worse.
but there always will be fighting- always- as long as the palestinians engage in militant activities.
just while you cant expect the palestinians to lay down their arms while israel is blockading gaza and creating illegal settlements, you cant expect israel to fully be willing to help create a palestinian state.
it goes two ways.


Lots of talking - very little walking.

o cmon Beirut, you know thats not just for the palestinians. its pretty much for every humanitarian crisis in modern days. look at Rwanda, Darfur and Congo to name a few.

Beirut
08-13-2009, 23:38
i strongly disagree.

Of course you do. :bow:


talk to some israelis. maybe a few hundred like i have (after all, i go there at least once a year for two weeks). 99% of them are more than willing to treat the palestinians as friends- once the palestinians stop being so aggressive. and no i wasnt mainly talking to the left wing activists within israel.

Again, much talking and very little walking. And the proof is that the Palestinians are being bombed, tortured, arrested without trial, starved, beaten, and left without hope just as they have always been. The latest massacre in Gaza and the attrocious and inhuman behaviour of the Israelis during and afterwards made it clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that nothing has changed. Not one single thing.


i see the point in why the newer generation of palestinians are so angry. all they ever hear is how horrible israel is, and because israel isnt letting in enough supplies to gaza, that only makes things worse.

The reason the newer generation is angry - as they have every right to be - is because they have decades of living breathing proof behind them that shows that, odds are, just as they were born in an Isreali concentration camp, they will die in an Israeli concentration camp


but there always will be fighting- always- as long as the palestinians engage in militant activities.

But there always will be fighting- always- as long as the Israelis engage in brutal and murderous activities.


just while you cant expect the palestinians to lay down their arms while israel is blockading gaza and creating illegal settlements, you cant expect israel to fully be willing to help create a palestinian state.
it goes two ways.

No, it does not go both ways. Israel is a nuclear military superpower, with America, the world's most advanced military and technological superpower, at its immediate disposal. Isreal has nearly unlimited access to funds, political movers and shakers, and to the highests levels of technological wizardry. The Palestinians have rocks, some AKs and some C4.

The Israelis are the people keeping the Palestinans imprisoned and the Palestinians are the people being kept imprisoned. There is no balance of any kind in this situation.


o cmon Beirut, you know thats not just for the palestinians. its pretty much for every humanitarian crisis in modern days. look at Rwanda, Darfur and Congo to name a few.

Agreed. But I mentioned it here with regards to the Palestinian issue because that is what we are talking about. And twenty wrongs do not make a right.

Hooahguy
08-14-2009, 00:21
whatever, this is going nowhere.

Beirut
08-14-2009, 01:07
whatever, this is going nowhere.

On the contrary. I'd say we've arrived at a very clear understanding.

Hooahguy
08-14-2009, 02:01
an understanding of where we both stand? absoultely. but as for the thread itself, we'll just be going around in circles.

Centurion1
08-14-2009, 02:36
Kamikaze pilots, Japan, World War II. Yes, and I'm referring to the actual pilots. Not the events in Korea or China (Nanking f.ex)

touche sir.

But they most definitely were fanatics.

LittleGrizzly
08-14-2009, 04:41
I have heard some of the kamikaze pilots were apparently offered a differnt job with a very high mortality rate but a far less glorious death, so maybe some were pratical rather than fanatical...

drone
08-14-2009, 16:48
an understanding of where we both stand? absoultely. but as for the thread itself, we'll just be going around in circles.

Just like the conflict. :yes:

Centurion1
08-14-2009, 16:59
or maybe they were practically fanatical.......

Incongruous
08-20-2009, 07:20
better not talk to bopa then...
:laugh4:

Go bollox yourself Hooah, you talk it constantly.

Black and white, well I see it more like white phospherous versus the native inhabitantswhom have been brutalised for roughly sixty odd years. Whom when they make outreaches to peace are shot down by a system afraid of what that might mean, and respond with violence,which twists the facts by us of its vast interest group in Washington and the "liberal" media. The simple frase, "Hamas take over of Gaza" tells you immediatley that the journalist responsible is talking bollox.

Hooahguy
08-20-2009, 11:55
ho-hum....

Seamus Fermanagh
08-21-2009, 04:32
Not enough change here anymore. Thanks to all who contributed, and for, mostly, maintaining a decent tone.