Javelins

[antisocialmunky]

Javelins sucked in EBI except for the AP variety. Is EBII going to give them some much needed punch?

[Foot]

We are happy with the performance of javelins in EBI, you can expect to see the same results in EBII as you did in EBI. We would love to include some sort of penalty to units that have been struck by javelins to represent their primary use before a charge as a device for disrupting a formation. However, we cannot, and it would be inappropriate to have them as some sort of killing machine instead.

Foot

[antisocialmunky]

You could use the attack/defense/morale lowering green status from the Kingdoms bee weapons.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Are you kidding me, ASM? Javelins were a killer. All you ought to do is to throw at the unprotected side, and you ought to have a really heavy armour to not suffer astounding casualties.

[satalexton]

how likely would it, for a javalin to embed itself within a bronze faced aspis? =/

I figure it'd just get a *plink* and a dent.

[John the Mad]

Javelins sucked in EBI except for the AP variety. Is EBII going to give them some much needed punch?

What you need is mass and volume for them to be effective.

One unit throwing them frontally against another isn't going to be very effective.What you want is two or more units,throwing at different angles over several seconds of game time to see how effective they are.

The only unit i ran into immune to this was the Epiorite elite phalanx and it was lame because they also are immune to being charged in the rear,flanks,front by heavy infantry or cavalry or a combination of both.

They will kill you with their backsides.

[antisocialmunky]

Well okay, I'll take your word for it but slingers and archers are much more economical for more kills at a farther range. If at all possible, 1 more javelin for skirmishers would make them much better.

[John the Mad]

Well okay, I'll take your word for it but slingers and archers are much more economical for more kills at a farther range. If at all possible, 1 more javelin for skirmishers would make them much better.

No need to take my word as we all experience different results in the game.

My usual MO for javelins are

A:Move slingers and archers into a firing posistion ahead.
B:Once their front rank is disordered move Leves backed up by Roarii through the lines taking slingers off fire.
C:Back up each with a unit of hastati to keep them from charging.
D:once in posisition have the Leves and Roarii pick a target.
E:Watch the fun begin.

I've slaughtered entire units in this fashion i think the key though is to get a unit a bit disordered.

Now i'm not saying this is going to break a battle line but you can destroy one to two units over a period of time with the most destruction coming from the javelins.You need two to four javelin units concentrating their fire on a single though at a time.

This technique works really good at driving units away from gates.

[Watchman]

how likely would it, for a javalin to embed itself within a bronze faced aspis? =/

I figure it'd just get a *plink* and a dent.The bronze covering was paper thin and mainly useful for tensioning the wooden main body of the shield, you know. It's certainly not going to do a first thing against a javelin, a weapon universally noted for its tendency to embed itself rather deeply in shields.

Anyway, from what I gather javelins *were* rather dangerous in particular to close-order infantry that couldn't readily dodge the slow-flying things. Which is exactly why most everyone put a screen of skirmishers in front of their battleline as a countermeasure - javelin skirmishers were relatively ineffective against each other (as the loose order allowed them to dodge without much difficulty), but could do serious harm to exposed heavy troops as for example Telamon so succintly demonstrated.

Also in EB1 it has often seemed to me they don't quite have the punch they should in order to be a reasonably effective short-range alternative to bows, which they historically were - as evidenced by the fact steppe nomads commonly enough carried them for short-range use in adjunct to their composite bows, and their enormous popularity particularly among cavalry in regions where the composite bow wasn't the main ranged weapon for mounted use. This disparity is perhaps most starkly apparent in the EB1 javelin-armed cavalry, who expect for a few rather specialised purposes (such as hunting chariots and elephants) are, frankly, just plain not even close to being worth your while if you can get true HAs.

Dunno 'bout how the M2TW ranged combat really works though, and if there's stuff that can be tweaked there to make ye olde thrown spear a bit less of a "second rate" weapon. I must say however that ASM's idea of giving them a temporary penalising effect would seem like a reasonably promising way for simulating the disordering and shield-damaging effect the things had which made them so useful for heavy-infantry encounters.

[antisocialmunky]

Another idea would be to boost javelin accuracy so more hit. Javelin infantry will sometimes get a unit card blinking(taking tons of kills may break).

[Watchman]

Depends. As mentioned, AFAIK they weren't terribly useful against open-order light troops since those could just dodge (a javelin is big and easy to see in flight, and doesn't fly all that fast), but close-order heavies were wont to suffer. Not that I knew how this stuf works in M2TW though, I only got around to even installing the damn thing last weekend...

[DaciaJC]

The only unit i ran into immune to this was the Epiorite elite phalanx and it was lame because they also are immune to being charged in the rear,flanks,front by heavy infantry or cavalry or a combination of both.

They will kill you with their backsides.

Where all else fail... Drapanai/Rhomphaiaphoroi succeed!

Personally, I find javelins, whether of the AP variety or not, to be incredibly useful in EB, certainly much more so than arrows. With skirmishers being as light as they are, it is a simply manner to loose a few volleys when the enemy is charging (which always results in hilarity; individual soldiers do death-tumbles in the air), pull them back behind the main line, and maneuver them behind the enemy's rear to deal out more death.

Though I do agree with Watchman's assessment of skirmisher cavalry: I never found a good use for them, as their numbers (~50 on large unit size, as with all other cavalry) are too small to dish out major damage, and one can usually afford two units of infantry skirmishers in place of one unit of cavalry skirmishers.

[satalexton]

javalinmen are useful, mix them with archers and slingers and watch them silly ladder-holding assaulters die.

[antisocialmunky]

Light skirmisher cavalry don't have enough missiles to be useful. Gameplay-wise, they need more missiles or some sort of other use.

And no, sieges don't count. Sieges never count.

[satalexton]

how can they not count =/ a half stack of psloi can essentially grind a full stack of AS spam down to nothing...

[Bucefalo]

I think javelin cavalry is quite useful. I guess we agree that a volley of javelins causes more damage than one of arrows at short range, the main advantage of the arrows is that they can be fire from much longer distance.

Pin an enemy infantry with one infantry unit of your own (no matter if it have lower quality), then manouver your javelin cav to the rear of the enemy unit, and fire a volley of javelin at close range at their backs. Watch them tremble, and if they don´t rout, just keep firing or if your unit have decent melee stats charge at them.

I find that is one the best ways of using javelin cav, as a horse archer could do the same, but their impact at close range cause much less damage on the moral of the enemy than what the javelins do.

Besides, i find the idea of adding the "disease" kingdoms effect to the javelins interesting, maybe a little overpowered thought.

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

yeah, but why many javelins are less effective than arrows?
haven t javelin more weight than arrow?
Many horse archers and archers have 5 or 6 of missile attack, the same point of skirmishers: then javelin should be more powerful, in my mind.
2 armoured skirmisher cavalry suck against 1 unarmored horse archer cav(especially raiders witch can charge).
With EB1 units stats, i prefer to take archers than skirmishers, because archers can easily kill all enemy skirmishers before they come near my army.

Post Scriptum
About roman pilum: this is only weapon that can save legionaries from extra heavy cavalry charge... PLEASE MAKE IT MORE POWERFUL, almost like spanish solifera (6 of attak).

[antisocialmunky]

how can they not count =/ a half stack of psloi can essentially grind a full stack of AS spam down to nothing...

I'll believe that when I see it as AS spams elites in my game.

[satalexton]

caucasian archers, slingers + akonkistai, @ karkarthiokerta. Arbela also works somewhat. The cities are located on top of a hill of sorts, shoot them to make them run up the hill (use hippakonkistai as 'incentive'). arrows + fatique + rocks and javalins = lots of dead AS troops

[antisocialmunky]

... because a terrain + siege scenario obviously allow one to claim his hypothesis works for the general case of open field battle. -_-'

[Hanoeman]

My main use for javelin cavalry is harassing other troops and sometimes trying to lure away enemy cavalry. Of course in game effects don't really correctly represent the punch harassing could have had in real ancient life, but it still does the trick most of the time. Javelins shouldn't really be stronger, but I'm all in favour of the more accurate idea. Although that applies mostly to specific situations where the throwers are standing more or less still and can actually pick out an individual target. If they're just vollying away the impact of the javelins is fine as it is.

[Blxz]

Javelins sucked in EBI except for the AP variety. Is EBII going to give them some much needed punch?

Just made a post about javelins in the EBI forum, then I find one here already. They really do seem underpowered. But some people really know how to use them to good effect. Would love to see a youtube video giving a demonstration.

[Azathoth]

Something that really weakens the skirmishers and makes them seem worthless to some is their inability to fire while on the move. Instead of stopping, turning as a unit, raising their javelins as a unit, and throwing (I'm assuming the officer yells something along the lines of "Ready! Aim!...") they should behave more like the cavalry and just do it as they run.

[antisocialmunky]

I suggested that a year ago and got no response, indeed that would make htem automatically better.

[John the Mad]

Javelin armed cavalry is effective as an annoyance and a distraction.

They will make leg based skirmeshers fall back and also pull the attention of a unit or two of spear or phalanx infantry.

They are fast enough and have enough stamina,that once done harrassing the enemy,they can be moved elsewhere to deliver quick rear and flanking strikes.

Versatile but fragile.

[Watchman]

I suggested that a year ago and got no response, indeed that would make htem automatically better.Engine. 'Nuff said.

[John the Mad]

Engine. 'Nuff said.

I really wish Ca would rethink their stance on making the game more marketable to a younger crowd.

Every decsion seems to be based on what will sell better to the 14 year old crowd yet everyone buying and sticking by the series are a bit older.

All they seem to focus on in the last two games is faster battle times,fewer turns,and unique "fantasy" specific units for factions.

Their only a couple degrees away from making Command and Conquer the Meideval edition.

[Cambyses]

Well, some javelin skirmishers are a lot more effective than others. ie Iberian/African troops have more javelins and a higher attack. Try using some of these guys and you will see that there is nothing wrong with the basic premise in EB1. Agreed that javelin skirmishers are considerably less effective at killing things from range than archers. But they are "generally" superior in close combat.

Skirmisher cavalry are rubbish at anything other than running down routers and getting in the way of the enemy. But then that is more or less their historical purpose isnt it?

[Bucefalo]

Skirmisher cavalry are rubbish at anything other than running down routers and getting in the way of the enemy. But then that is more or less their historical purpose isnt it?

I don´t think they´re rubbish, a volley of javelins at close range in the flank without shield/rear can do wonders to make an enemy unit rout. IMO they´re something like ancient "dragoons", they have less projectiles than foot javelinmen, but they´re mobile and can position themselves in much better places to use their javelins to maximun effect.

Only my two cents.

[Watchman]

Actually, they usually have *more* ammo than equivalent foot javelineers. Very considerably so, in the case of the guys riding horses with javelin quivers hanging from the saddle.

[A Very Super Market]

Skirmisher cavalry hide their effectiveness well. They aren't very good with charges (No lances) but they're surprisingly sturdy. Just try fighting Numidians, Tarantines, even Campanians, you will find them more difficult than most lancers.

[Belisarius II]

Throwing a javelin isn't exactly easy either. Most skirmishers used in armies were usually a bunch of young men if not boys, who had probably never even held a javelin before. When a group of these skirmishers threw their javelins, not all of them went straight. Some would start spinning wildly in the air, while some hit the ground harmlessly in front of the enemy. For ones that did reach the enemy, half were blocked with shields. For the rest that actually did hit the enemy, some had flipped around in mid-air so that the butt of the javelin hit a enemy. So as you can see, a typical skirmisher volley would inflict few causalities, but would disrupt the enemy's formation. Professional skirmishers, however, would inflict substantial causalities per volley.

[Watchman]

...you know from what I know of it thrown weapons in general are pretty darn easy to use and fast to learn.

[antisocialmunky]

They probably have some sort of resupply system(not shown in EB) as well. Some of those light skirmish battles lasted a while.

[Watchman]

They could throw each others' javs right back ya know. Archers did that with arrows a lot too AFAIK.

[A Very Super Market]

Not if you fight the Romans....

I recall that Hastings was actually in the Saxon's favour, numbers wise. William had a number of archers with him, firing uphill and not doing too much good, before finally running out of arrows and becoming wastes of space.

[antisocialmunky]

It would be nice if skirmishers had more ammo(only 1) to sim scavenging. Automatically more useful. You wouldn't need to do it for archers since only skirms are undepowered.

[Azathoth]

Light cavalry could actually be pretty lethal historically against disorganized foes. Since the infantry aren't in ranks and have a relatively large amount of space around them the cavalry can just outmaneuver, surround, and cut them down piecemeal.

But in EB, everyone's in perfect rows all the time, and if stragglers get attacked the whole unit will turn around to retaliate, which limits the usefulness of light cavalry.

[Tuuvi]

Personally I love skirmishers of both the foot and cavalry varieties and am happy with the way they are in EB. When used against lightly armored units they are pretty effective but when used against heavier troops not so much. As I understand from reading unit descriptions this is the way it's supposed to be.

Also I believe that skirmisher cavalry could be used against HA's but I have never tested this theory. When playing as Pahlava my horse archers took a lot of casualties from javelin units many times because they would not skirmish out of range of the javelins and before I noticed what was happening it was too late...:sweatdrop: So if you set them on loose formation or Cantabrian circle to minimize casualties they could be pretty effective as long as the enemy horse archers don't fire on your skirmisher cav. However I guess this could be considered an exploit of the game since it wouldn't have happened historically but maybe some of you might want to try it.

[Watchman]

Not if you fight the Romans...Pila were shock weapons of the heavy infantry; the skirmishers carried normal javelins you know.

[lobf]

Throwing a javelin isn't exactly easy either. Most skirmishers used in armies were usually a bunch of young men if not boys, who had probably never even held a javelin before. When a group of these skirmishers threw their javelins, not all of them went straight. Some would start spinning wildly in the air, while some hit the ground harmlessly in front of the enemy. For ones that did reach the enemy, half were blocked with shields. For the rest that actually did hit the enemy, some had flipped around in mid-air so that the butt of the javelin hit a enemy. So as you can see, a typical skirmisher volley would inflict few causalities, but would disrupt the enemy's formation. Professional skirmishers, however, would inflict substantial causalities per volley.

...and how do you know this?

[DaciaJC]

...and how do you know this?

Aren't the Suebi (plural of Sweboz?) skirmishers described as youths? The Jugunthiz or whatnot.

[antisocialmunky]

Can you wrap your won sig in spoiler quotes? It's obscenely huge.

[Cambyses]

Skirmisher cavalry against an army that contains many horse archers is basically suicide from my experience. Your only hope is to try and somehow catch them in melee.

[jazstl]

Hmm, I thought the skirmisher cavalry works like a disraction for enemy troops...
You got enemy heavy cavalry running awey from the positions, and you atack.:whip:

[John the Mad]

They could throw each others' javs right back ya know. Archers did that with arrows a lot too AFAIK.


When using skirmeshers you need to know how to use them and when they should be pulled back.

"Said, if youre gonna play the game, boy, ya gotta learn to play it right.

You got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.".

Skirmish infantry and cavalry are not battle changing units but used in conjunction with heavier units are battle winning ones.

Just sometimes with them you need to know when to run away.

[Whatever Scortamareva]

Throwing a javelin isn't exactly easy either. Most skirmishers used in armies were usually a bunch of young men if not boys, who had probably never even held a javelin before. When a group of these skirmishers threw their javelins, not all of them went straight. Some would start spinning wildly in the air, while some hit the ground harmlessly in front of the enemy. For ones that did reach the enemy, half were blocked with shields. For the rest that actually did hit the enemy, some had flipped around in mid-air so that the butt of the javelin hit a enemy. So as you can see, a typical skirmisher volley would inflict few causalities, but would disrupt the enemy's formation. Professional skirmishers, however, would inflict substantial causalities per volley.

Remember though, this is the youth of antiquity, not like young people today. Especially for barbarian factions, the children will have been brought up hunting and using spears and javelins, so they wouldn't be completely inept at throwing them.

[antisocialmunky]

Move along.

[NeoSpartan]

Regular javelins are very effective against non-armored/light armored infantry from whatever angle.
ex: Units like Gaeroas take lots of casualties from javelins.
-If you play a Lusotana (sp) campaign, the early game battles are constantly raining Javelins and you end up taking unnecessary casualties because of them. :wall:

Regular javelins are also effective against armored infantry IF you hit them on the right side (non-shield side), or the back.
-If you are not careful your Principes/Hoplites/Neitos/Gaesatae can be cut down to 60+ men from a few volleys on the right side.

[Titus Magnus]

Javelins are fine, play Roma Surrectum and see the future u ask for, legionares with testudo losing 50+ men with 1 volley from skirmishers!!!

[Cartaphilus]

Javelin cavalry is very useful, specially to catching routing armies, just as in reality.

And fighting other cavalry (using the javelins) or archers/slingers (using their secondary weapon).

[Whatever Scortamareva]

What annoys me in EB, and standard RTW (not that I can remember it happening though) is the fact that after engaging your men, an enemy unit with fire at will on will often leave their front row of men engaged and let the ones at the rear fire a volley of javelins at your men who lose far more casualties than if they were fighting normally.

This wouldn't be so bad, or, I suppose, historically innaccurate, if you could do the same, but you can't! If you try to, your men end up stopping fighting to throw the missile and losing far more casualties yet again!

sigh, if only there was a perfect engine.

[antisocialmunky]

Don't engage, run up, stop stare at them.

[Horatius Flaccus]

Am I the only one having trouble with socialmunky's post (with the picture)? I think it's neither funny nor respectfull.

[antisocialmunky]

It was a 100% serious response to the quoted post. No humor or disrespect was directed at the issue of child soldiers. All it was supposed to demonstrate was that that sort of thing still happens, just not in the part of the world that people identify with.

[Horatius Flaccus]

Ok, I'm sorry, I misinterpreted it.

[Celtic_Punk]

What you need is mass and volume for them to be effective.

One unit throwing them frontally against another isn't going to be very effective.What you want is two or more units,throwing at different angles over several seconds of game time to see how effective they are.

The only unit i ran into immune to this was the Epiorite elite phalanx and it was lame because they also are immune to being charged in the rear,flanks,front by heavy infantry or cavalry or a combination of both.

They will kill you with their backsides.

don't those buggers have axes? I always hated them, the only way to take em out was to take em on from 2 sides with Spartans. Countless cavalrymen wasted just to find out that even infantry attacking their rear was futile...


I find that javlins are extremely effective at A) engaged infantry B) from flanks or rear C) high ground advantage D) sometimes half the unit is slaughtered and the rest rout if a combo of A and B are used. using C in tandem with A and B is total overkill resulting in 70-99% of the unit butchered in 2 volleys. Javelins are extremely useful, but negligible when used against heavy infantry from the front. Romans with their cowardly huge shields (dropped when they are running from me) will sometimes not even take a single casualty if you hike javelins at them from the front.

[seienchin]

Light cavalry could actually be pretty lethal historically against disorganized foes. Since the infantry aren't in ranks and have a relatively large amount of space around them the cavalry can just outmaneuver, surround, and cut them down piecemeal.

But in EB, everyone's in perfect rows all the time, and if stragglers get attacked the whole unit will turn around to retaliate, which limits the usefulness of light cavalry.
100Points! :egypt:
Thats the problem.
Another post I found really interesting said that the pila should reduce the moral and defence of the enemy. Like the bee throwers in kingdoms or the ox corpses. That would make EBII definitly a better game :book:

[antisocialmunky]

It would be an okay effect but then you get into the issue of other skirmishers like slingers and whether they should do hte same thing. I would think that slingers would have that effect but not archers.

[lobf]

It was a 100% serious response to the quoted post. No humor or disrespect was directed at the issue of child soldiers. All it was supposed to demonstrate was that that sort of thing still happens, just not in the part of the world that people identify with.

Why do you need an offensive and callous photo to make that assertion? Seems a b it glib to me.

I don't personally like having things like corpses and children in the act of killing someone else shoved in my face. Wrap it in spoiler quotes at least. Good taste would tell you not to post it all all.

[Whatever Scortamareva]

Why do you need an offensive and callous photo to make that assertion? Seems a b it glib to me.

I don't personally like having things like corpses and children in the act of killing someone else shoved in my face. Wrap it in spoiler quotes at least. Good taste would tell you not to post it all all.

Well we are talking about a weapon used to kill people, often wielded by children. But I do understand your point.

And I wouldn't say javelins/pila would have a noticeable effect on morale (that is worth implementing into the game) since, after all, the men being hit by them would be prepared for combat in any case. The morale lowering effect of a comrade being hit by a javelin would be the same as a comrade being stabbed by an enemy infantryman.

[antisocialmunky]

How long does green status last anyways?

[gamegeek2]

Javelins IMO do need to be more from the front than they are right now, but their performance from the side is very, very impressive.

As for EB II...[CENSORED FOR SECRECY PURPOSES]...

[lobf]

Well we are talking about a weapon used to kill people, often wielded by children. But I do understand your point.

And I wouldn't say javelins/pila would have a noticeable effect on morale (that is worth implementing into the game) since, after all, the men being hit by them would be prepared for combat in any case. The morale lowering effect of a comrade being hit by a javelin would be the same as a comrade being stabbed by an enemy infantryman.

Okay, I'll get my catamite and eunuch photos ready.

Just because we're talking about them doesn't mean I want to see graphic modern-day analogues.

Please, tell me how a contemporary picture of an African child with a machine gun is relevant in any way to a historical discussion.

[DaciaJC]

He got rid of the picture. Let's move along.

[Ludens]

Am I the only one having trouble with socialmunky's post (with the picture)? I think it's neither funny nor respectfull.

No, you are right. I should have removed it earlier since it is against the forum rules to use graphic depictions of violence. My apologies for the slow response.

Incidentally, if you do think an image or post disturbing, there is a report-button next to the user avatar that you can use to alert the staff.

[antisocialmunky]

Well despite the fact that I didn't particularly find it disturbing, it was against my better judgement so I will apologize to whomever was offended.

[seienchin]

How long does green status last anyways?

Does anybody have an answer to this??
Making the pila effect morale and defense is imo the best way it can be made in a historical accurate game.:egypt:

[torongill]

Yeah, lowering the shield defence and the morale would be enough. But actually, the point of armor piercing is that the weapon packs more force. So it shouldn't be lowering half the armor value, but instead lower it by a constant ammount. That may need the whole calculation of the damage to be redone. Anyone knows how the defence against missiles is calculated?

[Julius Augustus]

Yes, I do. Against missiles, only armor and shield ratings are taken into account. Armor is taken into account from all sides. Shield ratings are taken into account from the front and left side. From the front, shield ratings are doubled against missiles. So, a shield with 4 defense would be worth 8 from the front. That's why palanxes are so ridiculously impervious to arrows.

[antisocialmunky]

Phalanx mode also gives phalanxes some sort of mystery bonus.

Here's a question, since shields do not count towards AP, are weapons like Pilum and other AP javelins effectively depicted in EB? It should negate the shield effect or atleast be more damaging to show how it could disable shields.

[Bucefalo]

I remember reading that there was a flaw in M2TW shields, being that they protect from the front, left and right (yes, from the side without shield). I haven´t tested it fully but i suspect it might be true, i read it some time ago on a thread about TATW. Of course i hope it is not true.

[Ludens]

From the front, shield ratings are doubled against missiles.

Only from the front? In R:TW shield value simply counted double against missiles (but was not effective from the right side and rear, obviously).

[Skullheadhq]

No, you are right. I should have removed it earlier since it is against the forum rules to use graphic depictions of violence. My apologies for the slow response.

Incidentally, if you do think an image or post disturbing, there is a report-button next to the user avatar that you can use to alert the staff.

Okay, so we can't post any screenshots of our battles anymore :thumbsdown:
:clown:

[antisocialmunky]

Only from the front? In R:TW shield value simply counted double against missiles (but was not effective from the right side and rear, obviously).

What do you think about Pilum which are supposed to disable shields then since AP isn't applied to shields? AFAIK.

[Ludens]

Okay, so we can't post any screenshots of our battles anymore :thumbsdown:
:clown:

Graphic depictions of virtual violence are mostly OK. Mostly. :evil:


What do you think about Pilum which are supposed to disable shields then since AP isn't applied to shields? AFAIK.

AP is not applied to shield in R:TW, and AFAIK this has not change in M2:TW. I don't think there is a satisfactory solution to that.

[antisocialmunky]

Oh well, if we use the bee status for showing shock/disabled equipment(it makes you fight worse I think) it would probaby be more adequate.

[seienchin]

I altered the Javelline Cavallery for Eb1 a little bit, why dont you try it sometimes.
Its in the mod section. New unit balance.

[Phalanx300]

I've read that some Germanics used barbed javelins, since MED2 allows weapon differences does that also means javelins will also be different?

Also offtopic for a bit, but I've read on the Haiwaiian warriors and was suprised they used pikemen as well(yes pikemen) and focused on javelins for a big part. Always interesting to know about these warriors from the other side of the world, never know what to expect. :2thumbsup: