Permanent Stone Forts question

[Owen Glyndwr]

So there has a been a lot of speculation recently regarding the use of permanent stone forts (PSFs), and what seems to be the general consensus is that they will be used to represent cities that couldn't make it as a main city due to the province restrictions. I recently picked up M2TW Kingdoms and I noticed something about the PSFs: They aren't given names. In Britannia campaign, they're labeled as (Province Name) Stone Fort (i.e. Gwynedd Principality Stone Fort, Deheubarth Principality Stone Fort, etc.) So, what I want to know is if the PSFs can actually be given a specific name?

[Cartaphilus]

I think that it is impossible to name PSFs in campaign map, but there is other options like opening windows (clicking on it) with the text (and the name) that we want.
At least I read it in Dominion of the Sword mod forum.

[moonburn]

most importantly if they are to depict cities can they rebel ? what will be their stack composition ?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

No, forts will not rebel. They are just forts.

[johnhughthom]

They could start as rebels though, with eleutheroi forces inside, I assume?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Yes, and rebels can attack/conquer them as any other settlement/fort.

[Cambyses]

Has play testing shown that they will they be used by the AI? I only ever really experienced stone forts before in the British campaign in Kingdoms and I noticed the AI will often abandon stone forts in favour of some other less obvious target. Making it very simple for me to capture them if I was that way inclined.

[antisocialmunky]

You should put them on resources(that look like towns and stuff) so it costs money if and enemy occupies the fort.

If you stuck all resources under towns, you could use merchants like governors that you dispatch or something to govern the countryside. :) I'm not sure if they get auto-ejected if an enemy occupies your fort though... Then there's always the sniping that can occur between those guys so I guess its not such a great idea for merchants = governors.

[Horatius Flaccus]

That's actually not a bad idea, antisocialmunky. I believe it's not possible for merchants to 'eliminate' eachother when one of them is in a settlement (or fort).

[Owen Glyndwr]

Verdad! I don't even believe a merchant can enter an enemy (or ally, for that matter) fort/settlement. To the best of my knowledge, only spies (and assassins?) can enter an enemy settlement.

[antisocialmunky]

Merchants can do that. If oyu find one really expensive thing, you can build a fort on it and jsut stack tons of merchants in there.

[Horatius Flaccus]

We need the reaction of an EB-team member here...

[Moros]

We need the reaction of an EB-team member here...
We're currently looking into PSF's and its possibilities. When we know what can be done, and what cannot, we'll make a decision on them. Then when we feel like it, we'll mention it in a preview or something. :egypt:

[satalexton]

i recall....militia units get free upkeep in those forts too right?

[miotas]

Any troops can get free upkeep, but only for a certain number, I think it's either 2 or 4 units. The most expensive troops in the fort are those that get the free upkeep.

[Atraphoenix]

we can give the garrison commander of fort movement penalty trait so at last there will be a permanent garrison but no idea this trait is compatible with kingdoms?

also can we name Stone fort like "County" "colony" as we can do in strat text file. So there would be like Propontis, Latium Colony / County etc.
pardon me for my ignorance, I have no info on kingdoms modding.

[Owen Glyndwr]

Also if the PSFs on resources/Merchants work as governor thing works and is implemented, it might actually give PSFs a purpose in the game besides a vanity sort of thing.

[antisocialmunky]

Perhaps we could make the merchant immobile once he reaches an empty stone fort. You just need ot find a way to expel/kill them.

[Megas Methuselah]

Also if the PSFs on resources/Merchants work as governor thing works and is implemented, it might actually give PSFs a purpose in the game besides a vanity sort of thing.

I like that.

[Cartaphilus]

Any troops can get free upkeep, but only for a certain number, I think it's either 2 or 4 units. The most expensive troops in the fort are those that get the free upkeep.

In Third Age TW the number of free upkeep troops is three.

[miotas]

No I just had a squiz at the britannia campaign and the garrison was only 2 units, so it must be changable.

[Horatius Flaccus]

Just a quick question about the psf's; are you going to use different models on the campaign map to represent how big the city is. DotS uses it to differ between castles and cities:

https://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1818/englandsummer.jpg

Note that there are only 8 cities, while the map looks very crowded with cities and castles.

[Azathoth]

Couldn't they add, like, 20 per province? Pretty please? :laugh2:

[bovi]

That map is already really crowded. I fear it would become siege total war with that density.

[Atraphoenix]

maximum 2 psf per province is logical otherwise we will spend half of our time with just besieging them.
I am planning to put 2 for large provinces and 1 for others even 0 for small provinces.
otherwise you have to put just 2000 psf only for all historical greek colonies.

[The General]

That map is already really crowded. I fear it would become siege total war with that density.

No... More... Sieges, puh-leeaase. :no:

[Atraphoenix]

If you think like that just imagine me how I will conquer cities with horse archers under pahlava. :wall:
Even I wrote a guide on it after years of playing with nomad factions. :yes:

[The General]

If you think like that just imagine me how I will conquer cities with horse archers under pahlava. :wall:
Even I wrote a guide on it after years of playing with nomad factions. :yes:

It's pretty easy to conquer towns/cities with wooden walls with HAs if you've got something mêlèe-capable units to deal with the final phase/engaging the general(s) (I'm playing currently as Baktria and the majority of my forces is made up of Shivatir-i Pahlavanig, Dahae Baexdzhyntae, Thanvare Payahdag, Nizagan-i Eranshahr and Thanvare Parsig units...).

However, castles/cities/forts are a little different in M2:TW... :skull:

My point was in general against sieges, I've just never liked them particularly. (Actually archer/HA-heavy armies can make some of them quite fun, it's always rewarding to see Pantodapoi/Pantodapoi Phalangitai/Gund-i Palta/Shuban-i Fradakhshana units melt under hails of hundreds or thousands of arrows)

[Atraphoenix]

Build sige machines pahlava is not capable of building them (historical issue)
I just wonder if they were weak in siege warfare how did they can conquered whole persia and how did they mange to scale the mighty walls of seleukeia?
BTW I do not want to divert the topic...

[Cartaphilus]

Keep sieging the city till the garrison is forced to sally forth.:laugh4:

[The General]

Keep sieging the city till the garrison is forced to sally forth.:laugh4:

But...but... I want to be more like the Mongol horde, storming cities and roaming the country with my cavalry forces, rather than having my cavalrymen sitting on their arse for two years or more...

:charge:

[Owen Glyndwr]

Keep sieging the city till the garrison is forced to sally forth.:laugh4:


Yeah! That's how I do it anyways!

[Blxz]

But...but... I want to be more like the Mongol horde, storming cities and roaming the country with my cavalry forces, rather than having my cavalrymen sitting on their arse for two years or more...

:charge:

Genghis Khan spent years of his life waiting in seige around enemy towns. Admittidly they did develop some decent catapaults but many of those could be outranged and destroyed before they could take down the larger walls. It was his method of seige that made things go much faster.

[Atraphoenix]

Keep sieging the city till the garrison is forced to sally forth.:laugh4:

you are forgetting the negative traits when you send your general to siege, like hesitant attacker even some are permenant ...

P.S. do not say send the captain then, I am a blitzer yeah, but I blitz with role play ..
too ironic yes... :laugh4:

[moonburn]

herm the 1st siege batle that genghis khans fought in china he ended up loosing half of his forçes according to the sources and thats because he had some engineers and a mercenary army provided by the chinese when they tryed to stop him from going around the great wall :laugh4: (i guess the chinese never had heard of the epirot troubles with the keltoi mercenaries or they wouldn´t have recruited an entire mercenary army) or else he probably would have lost due to impatiente (in the end the city surrendered after having eaten all the dogs animals and many sources claim their own dead where eaten)

[Blxz]

you are forgetting the negative traits when you send your general to siege, like hesitant attacker even some are permenant ...

P.S. do not say send the captain then, I am a blitzer yeah, but I blitz with role play ..
too ironic yes... :laugh4:

I don't think siegeing gives you hesitant attacker. I siege to end every single city on the map; very few (if any) of my generals get hesitant attacker. I remember in vanilla you could get negative command stars for siegeing if you had no siege equipment, so just build lots of ladders then drop them when the sally starts to avoid those traits...dunno if it carried over to EB but its become habit now.

I think hesitant attacker only comes when you choose to attack (looking at the enemy troops in perfect detail) then pull back and continue the siege. Same as any field battle where you initiate an attack and then pull back. To avoid that.....just don't do it, wait the siege out normally.