Pontos VH-VH

[Valerian Mengsk]

Hi there, I am an old lurker and EB player who finally got around to joining The Guild. Right now I am playing a VH-VH campaign with Pontos and have managed to survive, even thrive with them after a couple of false starts. Currently I am at 244 BCE, and will continue to post updates, if I can remember or until the save game gets corrupted :wall:.

Anyway, for anyone interested in playing Pontos, this is sort of a guide to one way to keep them alive in VH-VH (Note: I always play on this setting and I have no experience with any other setting, the other factions I have played with are the Sweboz and the Casse).

In 272 BC you will start with 2 armies significantly separated from one another in your province, and another force in Amaseia. The key to survival is to combine those armies as swiftly as possible, this will take all of the first turn to do. Meanwhile keep your diplomat nearby since you will need him. Lastly do not[I] disband any units except for the cavalry (of you don't like them) since you will need every last man to survive the next few turns.

Alright you now have three options: North to Sinope which will cause the Koinion Hellen (sp) to declare war on you. South to Mazaka, and an unending war with Arche Seleukia. Or West to Galatia and Ankyra. Personally I chose Ankyra since they have no phalanx units and die on your spears easily. I had sieged and captured Ankyra by spring. (Note: You will be seriously in the red by this point and I recommend sacking the city to make it easier to control with fewer troops)

So now the new year has started and you once again have 3 options: North to Sinope (still viable), West to Bythia (larger army, but possible), South to Mazaka (and chaos).
You may think I'm insane, but blitz Mazaka ASAP. The first two attempts at Pontos I stayed away from AS and took Sinope or Bithynia, lost 30-40% of my army, was still in debt, and sure enough Arche Seleukia attacked me with 9+ units within 2 years and I was wiped out.

So.....blitz Mazaka, it should only have 5 units in it max. But before that if you want to maintain your alliances with Bactria, Hayadasan, and Phalava send your diplomat in and cancel your allaince with AS to save diplomatic penalties. If you attack AS within 2 years they will not respond soon since the AI is still putting out fires elsewhere, gathering armies, and is still relatively poor (for an AI).

Once you have Mazaka, and hopefully most of your original army, your financial situation should be improving (especially if you sacked Mazaka). The next strategic choice is a little less black and white than the first two (for me at least).
-You can go West on the handy road, and besiege Ipsos and then Sardis, thus securing your Western flank from issues, but you will be facing equal or larger armies, and one of those cities has a stone wall IIRC.
-You can entrench yourself (hint: focus on Mazaka, Ankyra is hard to reach by AS and is thus largely left alone by the big armies)
- You can go East, further into AS main territory (not recommended)
-Lastly you could try to pull off the crazy stunt I managed, since I sent a spy South to the Holy Lands and noticed that Minor City Antiocheia was garrisoned by 2 units, and march the strongest remaining units in your army South (without an FM) and take it. Yeah, march through [I]Ptolemaoi territory and siege Antiocheia and take it fast.
-Oh, you could also attack Tarsos, and piss off the Ptolemaoi, but I don't recommend angering the other Super Power right now.

Anyway, I somehow managed to take Antiocheia (if it has a larger garrison, do not attempt and try instead option 1 or 2) and sacked it, which wiped out my debt entirely. By now the year was 270 BCE and I was feeling giddy. But AS was gearing up for war.

Now, If you followed my hair-brained scheme and blitzed Antiocheia you have three options, since in the next year AS will send armies towards Mazaka and Ankyra and Antiocheia.
1. Abandon Antiocheia completely and destroy everything that can be destroyed to give you money for units.
2. Send half your remaining army home, and have the rest hunker down behind Antiocheia's nice stone walls.
3. Take Refuge in Audacity and continue the assault!

I chose option 3.

In 268 BC I left 2 units in Antiocheia, moved a FM down to join the rest of the army and marched on Edessa to the east.

This little town has very little in the way of population, or defenses. So it was an easy capture with the remainder of my original army+plus some mercenaries which numbered some 600 men.

Now if your Arche Seleukia AI is anything like mine, it will be pissed. They had an army from Ipsos marching on Mazaka, another marching from Sophene, and 2 half-stack armies running for Edessa.:sweatdrop:

So I recommend destroying everything you can in Edessa, leaving like one unit there and running for your life back to Mazaka to aid in the defense of the Homeland. Interestingly enough Antiocheia was ignored for a while, allowing for its garrison to be strengthened, and I was able to hold it permanently.

The next 10 years or so I can only describe as hectic and desperate as you fend off numerous armies from AS while slowly building up to take Ipsos and Sardis.:juggle2:

Which I will cover in another, hopefully shorter post.

Thanks for listening. :beam:

[Whatever Scortamareva]

Nice post :)

I've never tried Pontos myself, and although I'm sure it's a nice challenge on VH/VH, I'd go with VH/M, since I hate waiting years to get some decent recruitable units only to have them halved in number in the first battle :clown:

You should have a go at an AAR with this campaign, if not it'd be nice to see some screenshots of it :2thumbsup:

Good luck for the rest!

[DaciaJC]

Very nice guide, but I believe a better place for this is the EB Gameplay Guides and AARs (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=128) forum.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Meh, the mods will most likely sort this out. Although I expected a thread with questions and pleas for tips when I clicked on the title...

[Valerian Mengsk]

Oh, it would be cool if the mods could move this thread to the Guides and AARPs section, unless I can do it somehow?:inquisitive:

[Aemilius Paulus]

unless I can do it somehow?:inquisitive:
Unfortunately, we cannot do that. Or perhaps fortunately, as all sorts of people come here, some good and some just trolls/spammers.

[Molinaargh]

Could use some screenshots. But nice guide, just try to put some images in the next part.

Would also be nice to talk about unit choice.

[Valerian Mengsk]

Working on the screenshots, but I can give a somewhat brief guide to Pontic units and some tactics I use in battle, since I did not mention that in my previous post.
(Note: For ease of typing I will just use the English translation of the units instead of their full name)

Pontic Faction Units:

-Hellenic Native Spearmen: This are the first melee unit available in the faction MIC. Frankly, I think they are terrible, I try to train as few of them as possible since they are worthless in battle except to tie down phalanxes or serve as arrow fodder. Their only plus is that they are available just about everywhere in the East.

-Eastern Skirmishers: I often spend my money on these guys instead. Versatile, decent stamina, okay melee, and good morale, large numbers, cheap. I usually keep 2 units of these in every army of mine, however large since they are essential to killing phalanxes and killing cav. They are almost as wide spread as Hellenic Spearmen in the East but very few provinces in Anatolia can train them unfortunately.

-Hellenic Skirmisher Cav: Practically indistinguishable from any other low tier skirmisher cav unit. Don't expect miracles from them, and they are highly susceptible slingers and archers. I find them rather expensive early on, and later on they are underpowered anyway. Up to the player (I rarely any type of cav other than medium)

The next 4 require a lvl 3 factional MIC.

-Hellenic native Phalanx: While not the best mid-range phalanx available, they are dependable nonetheless, and inexpensive for the number of men you get. I tend to have 1-2 units in my armies. As for tactics, I am not skilled at phalanx/phalanx warfare, so I tend to use them as walls to pin down enemy formations as I flank from the side and rear. They are only available in half of Anatolia, but still have their place in Pontic armies.

-Hellenic Spearmen: Versatile, trustworthy unit. I tend to keep at least 1 of these with my armies due to their dependability. They have a decent missile attack, melee and armor, do not expect miracles from them, but they will perform well in any situation except charging headlong into a phalanx (obviously). Another plus is that most of the provinces that can recruit them are all nearby.

-Scythed Chariots: Fast, extremely powerful charge, but suffer from low armor, mediocre morale and high training cost and upkeep. I tend to keep one around for the novelty. Plus i am just not good at micro-ing chariots. They are also rare, a grand total of 5 provinces (All based in Anatolia) train them.

-Cappadoccian Medium Cavalry: Good medium cav. Not overly expensive, and great for attacking enemy cav and killing them. Also suffer from having only 5 provinces to train from, but useful nonetheless.

That's it for factional units for the moment.

[Valerian Mengsk]

Here is my first attempt to post a screen shot.

https://i802.photobucket.com/albums/yy303/cliwan8/1styearPontosVH-VH.jpg

[Aemilius Paulus]

Hmm, I am loving your guide, please continue. Successful VH/VH with Pontos is the mark of a highly advanced RTW player. So how is your crazy Antiocheia plan now? Are you still holding it? Can you post a more recent screenshot?

And why would you "entrench"? I do not get it. Would it not make sense to get the West of Asia Minor and plus an alliance with Makedonia so they will stay out of your territory?? Or is the money issue not letting you?

[option]

Nice guide. I had a successful VH/M campaign with Pontos on the go (controlled all of Anatolia, the Levant and Mesopotamia) but stopped playing it since I hated their options for phalanxes (either the Pantodapoi Phalangitai, who get SHREDDED by any Pezhetairoi/Klerouchai Phalangitai, or the expensive elite Chalkaspides).

[Valerian Mengsk]

In answer to your question Aemilius, yes money is very much a consideration behind forting up after taking Mazaka, because going west becomes less likely to succeed every turn. But if you just hold those 3 settlements against the first army from the West you can quickly march over there and take Ipsos. Essentially this is the strategy for the more defensive players out there who don't like risking everything in gambits.

[Valerian Mengsk]

Before I do another portion of the guide I want to justify taking Ankyra first thing.
It mostly has to do with the unique troops the province offers which can give you the edge over Arche Seleukia and the Ptolemaoi early on.

Galatia is basically a portion of Gaul teleported over to the Anatolian Peninsula. It offers little cavalry, but instead gives you access to some superior melee units, that everyone else can only aquire through mercenaries.

LvL 1 Regional MIC gives you:

1. Celtic Levy Spearmen- I prefer these units to Hellenic Native Spearmen any day of the week and recommend keeping around 4-5 units (as your monetary situation permits) around for the first 20 years. Galatia is the only local province that can train these guys. Tactically use them in a light infantry role (killing skirmishers, assaulting gates, flank attacks, etc.) since they generally have the morale and stamina to keep going.

2. Galatian Shortswordsmen - I have mixed feelings about this unit, it looks decent on paper but their small shields and lack of armor tends to leave windrows of these guys on the battlefield. On the other hand, they have the morale and melee skill to match any none phalanx unit available (and phalanxes if they attack from the sides/behind) plus they throw spears before charging. Lastly, they are expensive early on at 1000 Minna a pop.

LvL 2 MIC gives you:

-Celtic Slingers: These guys are good, they are cheap, long-range, armor piercing, and have decent melee for ranged units. Always have at least 1-2 of them with any army, heck any garrison, or their Hellenic or Eastern equivalent. They will win battles for you by evening the odds.

-Celtic Spearmen: I like this unit, and find it far more useful than the Shortswordsmen though they appear to have similar stats. Thanks to the province all units are trained to 2 experience which gives them an edge over other units right off the bat, and since this unit is so similar to Hellenic Spearmen, but costs less and has 20 more men, I tend to use them more than the faction lvl3 MIC equivalent.

LvL 3 MIC gives you:

Celto-Hellenic Spearmen: Similar to Hellenic Spearmen in most ways, and in my mind just as inferior to Celtic Spearmen in practice *shrug*, this is an example of player preference really.

Celtic Archers: I must admit that I have yet to recruit any of these yet, probably because I tend to lean towards Bosphoran archers and slingers. But they appear to be a decent unit all around. When I use them some, I will probably edit this entry.

That's it on Galatia for now, I hope you understand a little why I feel this is an important starting conquest for Pontos.
Next update will deal with the guide. I promise :2thumbsup:

[Whatever Scortamareva]

Celtic Archers: I must admit that I have yet to recruit any of these yet, probably because I tend to lean towards Bosphoran archers and slingers. But they appear to be a decent unit all around. When I use them some, I will probably edit this entry.


It annoys me a little bit that these guys are only available on level 3.

Celtic archers outdo hellenic archers, yet with slingers and regional mercs you never really need them, and their limited use in melee isn't really required when you get up to this level MIC.

But ah well.

I understand your choice of Ankyra. It's also in a prime (for some) position in Asia Minor; though it doesnt have any coastal areas (does it have a port?), since its right in the middle it lets you pretty much control access through this area, and with the Seleukid starting settlement further in the west it can make a nice chokehold on them, if you have a decent garrison.

Can't wait to hear more!

[Valerian Mengsk]

Okay on to the actual guide again.
(Note: To anyone who wants more screen shots i can't provide them until I get to 249 BC-ish since I saved over an earlier one by accident so bear with me.)

Okay, if my memory serves it should be circa 266-7 BCE and after leaving a hollow mockery of Edessa behind your army should be hightailing it back to Mazaka.

Some of you might be asking why after taking Edessa the AI for Arche Seleukia doesn't just make a beeline for Antiocheia and I think I have an answer.

My army retreated North through the mountains where there is no road, and it is slow going, and apparently the AI thought I close enough to attack whatever army would siege Edessa so it just sat there instead, right outside until my army was 2 turns away. Meanwhile I had recruited a diplomat from Antiocheia (about all you can do there until builds an MIC) and used it to negotiate with the Ptolemaoi. I suggested an alliance but they ignored me. I have found that the Ptolemaoi are afraid of AS's shadow until around 250 BCE, so they will refuse to do anything that might draw AS's attention.

Now at this point there were 4 AS armies nearby: 2 were loitering near Edessa, 1 was sitting in the mountain pass to the East of Mazaka (which I had to bail my army out of by moving what units I had recruited in Amaseia and Mazaka over there to make it back off) and a forth moving towards Ankyra.

Now I sent that army north cause it was the best choice given my circumstances. You need to preserve as much of those MIC lvl 3 troops as possible early on. I couldn't return to Antiocheia because those 2 armies were blocking that road, but if they hadn't I would highly recommend going that way instead of north.

Anyway, the army besieging Ankyra was relatively small, so I just had to move the recombined forces East of Mazaka 2 turns West to somewhere close to Ankyra and that army should back off.

Alright, by now its 266-5 BCE and its time to mobilize for a new campaign. Rest your FMs for a turn (preferably winter) leave some slingers and melee units (4 tops including an FM) in Ankyra and Mazaka each and move everything else north to assault Sinope.

Other options include attacking Ipsos, but they will have a 10-11 unti FM lead army there by now, with more in Sardis to the SW, so you can do it if you are confident in winning large land battles with inferior Fms and units.

BTW I have not sent a FM down to Antiocheia since it was being largely ignored (the two armies by Edessa stayed in Edessa after capturing it :inquisitive:)
But this may not be the case for anyone else so use what little income you have now to recruit there until Sinope is taken.

(Addendum, I found it very useful to construct roads on turn 1 in Amaseia, it helps speed up the Sinope, Ankyra, Mazaka campaigns and reinforcing afterwords)

Now for Sinope, I found that I only needed 9-10 units (some understrength) to take this city, it isn't the most challenging one in Anatolia.
I tend to build 2-3 battering rams in 1 turn and attack right away to prevent morale drops thanks to FMs. I won't say much about the actual battle, Sinope doesn't have any high-end units, and if you can manage to kill their FM in the streets ahead of time, it helps.

(Note: Konion Hellene (sp?) will declare war on you for attacking Sinope, but they never do anything about it, in fact they asked for peace not 6 years later)

Also if you get the faction quest to aid Chernoses on the northern shores of the Black Sea I can not help you. You do not have a navy at this point to send an army over and the land trip will take years :shame:. In my campaign the Sauromatea took one look at the 10+ garrison and the stone walls and went searching for greener pastures.

Now that you have taken Sinope your financial situation should be stable, if not healthy. Leave an FM there if you want, but don't worry about a garrison, Arche Seleukia never showed any interest in the place for me.

I should now be 264 BCE and you should have started being assaulted by 6-8 ish armies by AS in Ankyra, and Mazaka. Keep your army centralized and praise the Gods for retraining.

This first wave of attacks will last for the next year or two. Do your best to keep your army intact and slowly build up for assaulting Ipsos.

If you went for Ipsos and Sardis early on I suggest you focus in the West for the first 10 years by capturing Halikarnassos to the South and Bithynia to the North while keeping an army in Mazaka to fend off assaults from the East. Take Pergamon only if you want to face Macedon, its their favorite chew toy.

When I began campaigning for Ipsos they had a Stone wall up and a decent garrison, luckily there was also an army outside nearby that I savaged ahead of time, when I besieged Ipsos soon after that beaten up army of 300 or so survivors attacked me again and I was able to kill Ipsos' garrison out in the field.

Now all that is left is Sardis, which also has a stone wall and a FM with a 13 unit army. It was now circa 261-2 BCE and my army was chewed to pieces and Mazaka and now Antiocheia was coming under attack frequently. Macedon was busy losing 10-11 unit armies every year to Pergamon, mostly due to this Eleutheroi spawned army of 14+ units that killed everything in its path.

Soon after I took Sardis and Ptolemaoi diplomat demanded that I become a protectorate. Now this is up to the player, but I took the offer since it meant more money and foced peace with AS, since the Ptolemaoi had made peace with them after an AS army from Sardis had been wiped out by a 13-14 Ptolemaic stack based in Side to its South East.

I used this temporary breather (cause it will be temporary, Arche Seleukia has a looong memory) get trade rights from AS, reinforce Antiocheia with Bosphoran archers and Cappadoccian Axemen (which are a wonderful fighter for combat on city walls and hill fighting!) and finally stop a Seleukid navy from blockading Antiocheia.

Around 260 BC AS attacked me again, which I can not figure out how to prevent. And the Ptolemaoi cancel their alliance with me, and then send a little 3 unit army to siege Ipsos which also had only 3 units but my main army wasright there. By that time the large stack in Side had been moved or killed off (I can't remember) so I left a small force in Ipsos to play shadow puppets with the now 15 unit stack in Sardis (which had medium phalanx in it by then, which are hard as heck to kill) and I sieged Side and took it soon after.

Oh, if Side is too tough the Ptolemaoi usually leave only a token garrison in the larger Tarsos by Antiocheia. Because I can assure you that the Ptolemaoi will attack you somewhere, most likely with underwhelming numbers.

Anyway, I took Side, but soon had to leave it with a small garrison to fight AS forces which had bypassed Mazaka (they do that :sweatdrop:) in order to reinforce Sardis, and to fight scattered Ptolemaic forces causing general havoc.

Which caused Side to fall to a medium-sized army from Tarsos (by this point Antiocheia had a regular garrison of 8 units+ a family member, so it was to powerful. Unfortunately that army could not move because the pop had grown to around 15k and happiness was always 70-75%)

By 258 BC things had returned to normal and I took Side and then Tarsos in rapid succession, ending the Ptolemaic hindrance. Then a lucky break came around 255 BCE when most of the AS army in Sardis suddenly marched South to siege Halikarnassos which led to my sieging it with my main army and fighting its army in the field when the AS army turned back to fight me. I was able to win a costly victory and seize Sardis, ending the threat in the West.

You should keep in mind that Mazaka and Antiocheia will be attacked every year or so while this is happening. Also, every time I captured a Ptolemaic city they would order me to become a protectorate, which I did to get temporary trade bonuses until they attacked me again. Also when I attacked Sardis I was a protectorate of the Ptolemaoi at the time and for once they sided with me and declared war on AS. Apparently Ptolemaic diplomatic AI prefers to side with the aggressor.

What about Makedonia you ask? Well it was bust getting its butt kicked in Greece by the Hellenes to worry about me, in fact they have been down to 2 cities for the since 258-7 BCE. As for Epiros, it has 4-5 cities and is mainly preoccupied with Konion Hellene to the south. And yes, the Getai are slowly expanding in a competitor free area.

That's it for now.

[Valerian Mengsk]

To address your question, Whatever, Ankyra can build a river port and its upgrades, but that is it. And I do like its placement just to the North of the main road through Anatolia, its makes raids simpler.:laugh4:

[Apázlinemjó]

In Ankyra, buld a lvl4 regional MIC, then you can get the Galatikoi Kuarothoroi unit, which is a pretty good infantry.

[satalexton]

Heavy infantry of the Keltoi seasoned warrior class. You really couldn't afford much of these guys early on. I'm a lot more fond of the nakkid psychopaths.

[Apázlinemjó]

Heavy infantry of the Keltoi seasoned warrior class. You really couldn't afford much of these guys early on. I'm a lot more fond of the nakkid psychopaths.

They are more expensive and need regional lvl 5 MIC, I think.

[satalexton]

ye, but u need only one unit of them to start a chain rout, and they're a lot harder to kill. 2 hp means they last many battles before becoming obsolete.

[Apázlinemjó]

ye, but u need only one unit of them to start a chain rout, and they're a lot harder to kill. 2 hp means they last many battles before becoming obsolete.

That's true, however the archers are still their major weakness and if you fight on more than one front you will be forced to use cheaper units.

[machinor]

True, but it appears to me that missile casualties have a quite high chance of recovering... at least in medium battle difficulty. That makes up for it... a bit.

[Valerian Mengsk]

But this is VH, and no one unit will cause a chain rout on VH (unless it just killed the general). VH units might recover up to 50% of ranged casualties, or more, but most of the time they do not recover at all. :no:

[Whatever Scortamareva]

I hope you'll be continuing with this =]

I started a VH/M Pontos campaign after reading your instructions, though I didn't really follow them properly :embarassed:

Instead, I kept my main armies separate and took Ankyra and Sinope, though my economy didn't improve. Soon the AS attacked me at Amaseia, but with my leftover Phalanxes (2 units of natives), some spearmen and an FM I bypassed Nikaia with it's rather large garrison and took Byzantium.

The economy is really poor, luckily the mines in Ankyra help, and so my armies have been mainly Celtic Levy Spearmen and Greek Levy Hoplites, which to be fair serve nicely as basic infantry troops.

My biggest achievment so far (around 267 BC) was protecting Mazaka from a sizeable Seleukid stack with two powerful 40horse FMs, blocking the town entrances with my precious Pantodapoi Phalangitai (sp?) and barely managing to hold most of the army there whilst I pushed through round with my Levys and Hellenic Native Spearmen and barely routed the stack. A slightly cheating but nice victory nonetheless.

Well, i'm off to carry on with my Pontos campaign :beam:, hopefully you'll carry on with this soon :2thumbsup:

[panosha]

You don't need to combine the 2 armies. 1 can take Ipsos the other can take Mazaka.

[Blxz]

You don't need to combine the 2 armies. 1 can take Ipsos the other can take Mazaka.

You guys must be much better in battles than me. My only pontus game VH/M ended up with me being crippled by a very aggressive early AS. They had a massive 20unit stack of midrange phalanx that would seige my capital and a smaller 8unit stack of something (no spy could see it) that was seigeing Ankyra every turn. My saving grace was a diplomat who managed to get ceasefire every single turn with them. They would promptly seige me again the following turn. this went on for about 6-10 years of game time. I had no army but was making decent profit so I built up an army in Sinope and then went on to drive them out and get a long way into the game before I got quite bored and called it a win because I was only about 20 turns from getting my final victory conditions. I prefer the challenge of the early game.

Just to put this in perspective; this was 6-10 game years at 4tpy. So it was somewhere around 30 turns of continuous seige, ceasefire, seige again and again. If I were you I wouldn't beleive it. I still don't completely myself. But it saved me. I built up sinope with a government, and lvl 3 (maybe 4) MIC and a whole bunch of troops. It ranks as the greatest diplomatic idiocy I have ever seen. And the only times the AI ever makes peace.

[Subotan]

Wow, this is a really good guide. Excellent writing too. :2thumbsup:

[Urg]

I like it too. Now I'm getting tempted to play Pontos. Playing them on VH/VH sounds like a really fun challenge because of their starting position.

I think I am probably way more risk-averse than you (its a character fault of mine, I'm sure). I would be looking to bribe the AS off from attacking me with a small regular tribute so I can build up my strength before I try to take any of their cities.

I definitely love your idea of swinging Pontos' main army down to take Antiocheia by surprise - what a coup! I am, however, shuddering at the thought of going to war with the yellow of grey deaths simultaneously.

[DaciaJC]

I would be looking to bribe the AS off from attacking me with a small regular tribute so I can build up my strength before I try to take any of their cities.


As Pontus, you go into debt from the start. Your best chance of digging out of debt involves sacking AS cities. Once you're at war, I highly doubt the AS will be willing to make a truce.

[Subotan]

As Pontus, you go into debt from the start. Your best chance of digging out of debt involves sacking AS cities.

Yet more proof that Keynesian economics works.


Once you're at war, I highly doubt the AS will be willing to make a truce.
If you have a sufficient buffer between you and the AS, say like some yellow country in Cicilia, they might.

[A Very Super Market]

Of course, then the Ptolies are liable to declare war on you as well.

[Subotan]

But the Ptolies are isolated, as Cicilia is an exclave. Just build a fort in the mountain pass and mop up the surviving Seleucids in Anatolia.