Sweboz - Berserkr?

[Avatar di Foschia]

Hello to all.

I saw that in EB I, in the Sweboz faction, there weren't included Berserkr. I think that it is because there aren't historical evidences of their existence, not even in Tacitus. People probably believe they're too "mythical" and, in fact, the unit present in RTW is absolutely not realistic (a big mace, 3 hit points, out of mind... something like a crazy war elephant). But Berserkr aren't so mythical. Yeah, you can find them in the same sagas where you see Odin riding to hell, but they must be something more than a tale. For example, Harald Harfager (850-933), the first king of Norway, used Berserkr as elite troops in his army. For centuries, they were the bodyguards of kings and jarl. In 1015, King Erik Jarl condemned the Berserkr as pagan outlaws. More and more tracts can be find in the "Gesta Danorum", by Saxo Grammaticus. It's said that they were something like a religious order, with selected members; they were warriors armed with lance (maybe a "framea"), shield, helmet; so, they probably weared an armour, too.

The only problem is that we don't know in what age you can find Berserkr, because you know how is difficult to find informations about germanic, scandinavian or baltic people before the medieval age. We don't know if there were Berserkr in Germany or even in Denmark. But they prayed to the same gods and about in the same ways; so it isn't so strange, I think, that Sweboz had their Berserkr, even two or three centuries before Christ. They were known, in the medieval age, like a really ancient tradition. Maybe they wouldn't be so bad in EBII.

P.S.: Sorry for my english. I know, it's terrible >_> in Italy we don't study it so much, at school.

[DaciaJC]

There is another thread running with the same theme - it's in the EB Forum, though.

new units for sweboz (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=120383)

[Jarvgrimr]

Your english is actually quite good. :) No need to worry too much.

You bring up a fair point but since every unit in any M2:TW mod, especially one as epic in scope as EB II, taking up a whole unit slot with just a Berserker unit seems like too much.

Though i'm sure the ability of going berserk is something that can be implemented in EB II;

For example if you follow a certain deity in the religious building tree, a specific elite infantry unit can gain the berserker trait. Would work out quite well i reckon.

[m046720]

Hello to all.

I saw that in EB I, in the Sweboz faction, there weren't included Berserkr. I think that it is because there aren't historical evidences of their existence, not even in Tacitus. People probably believe they're too "mythical" and, in fact, the unit present in RTW is absolutely not realistic (a big mace, 3 hit points, out of mind... something like a crazy war elephant). But Berserkr aren't so mythical. Yeah, you can find them in the same sagas where you see Odin riding to hell, but they must be something more than a tale. For example, Harald Harfager (850-933), the first king of Norway, used Berserkr as elite troops in his army. For centuries, they were the bodyguards of kings and jarl. In 1015, King Erik Jarl condemned the Berserkr as pagan outlaws. More and more tracts can be find in the "Gesta Danorum", by Saxo Grammaticus. It's said that they were something like a religious order, with selected members; they were warriors armed with lance (maybe a "framea"), shield, helmet; so, they probably weared an armour, too.

The only problem is that we don't know in what age you can find Berserkr, because you know how is difficult to find informations about germanic, scandinavian or baltic people before the medieval age. We don't know if there were Berserkr in Germany or even in Denmark. But they prayed to the same gods and about in the same ways; so it isn't so strange, I think, that Sweboz had their Berserkr, even two or three centuries before Christ. They were known, in the medieval age, like a really ancient tradition. Maybe they wouldn't be so bad in EBII.

P.S.: Sorry for my english. I know, it's terrible >_> in Italy we don't study it so much, at school.

Don't be sorry for your english. You write it better than some people who have as their first language.

[Marcus Metellus]

Maybe EB team should think about (germanic Wildmen)who had mixed weapons like axes & swords or just one weapon type :sweatdrop: men are capable to fight against heavy troops generally older experienced and must defend their lands.
and (local tribesmen for all factions except Romani Hellenic and other much civilized factions)

tribesmen rocks :2thumbsup:

[Marcus Metellus]

I think your English is better than mine =)

[bovi]

For example if you follow a certain deity in the religious building tree, a specific elite infantry unit can gain the berserker trait. Would work out quite well i reckon.
This is impossible. A unit has the berserker trait or it does not. There can be no conditions for having it. You could make two units which are identical in every other aspect of course, but you would then use two unit slots for it.

[Jarvgrimr]

This is impossible. A unit has the berserker trait or it does not. There can be no conditions for having it. You could make two units which are identical in every other aspect of course, but you would then use two unit slots for it.

So it cannot be added in as a special ability (like schiltrom for spearmen or flaming arrows for archers), that has to be trained before it can be put to use?

[bovi]

Those special abilities work just the same as the berserker. Either a unit can do them, or it can not. You could have a unit called Bartixioi Megaclasmai with the Uranus death ray and another Bartixioi Megaclasmai without it, but then those would be two separate units which could not merge. You could not choose to have a single unit called Bartixioi Megaclasmai which could use the Uranus death ray only if it happened to be created on Uranus, or if it stayed two turns in Atlantis to charge it. It is just how the engine works.

[antisocialmunky]

You forgot the picture:
https://img286.imageshack.us/img286/2164/bartixuranusdeathray2ru.png

The only real unit modifcations you can have(dynamically) would be for massive chevrons.

[Cartaphilus]

Those special abilities work just the same as the berserker. Either a unit can do them, or it can not. You could have a unit called Bartixioi Megaclasmai with the Uranus death ray and another Bartixioi Megaclasmai without it, but then those would be two separate units which could not merge. You could not choose to have a single unit called Bartixioi Megaclasmai which could use the Uranus death ray only if it happened to be created on Uranus, or if it stayed two turns in Atlantis to charge it. It is just how the engine works.

I want that Bartixioi Magaclasmai (with or without the death ray) in the game.

I hope to see them in the next preview. :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Celtic_Punk]

I'd imagine the bererker type warriors were not large regiments of men. Less deserving of a unit than Gaestae, whom usually were the first wave of men. the Beserkers I'd imagine would be individual men whom just had a tendency to go into a blood lust in battle. Spread throughout the entire army, just regular soldiers, who might have done some amphetamines before engaging. There is no doubt in my mind they existed. But to limit them to just germanians? I do not believe that only Germanic people tended to go into a blood lust. Cuchulain, also known as the hound of ulster (for some reason made into its own unit, even though he was just a single man, and if he did infact exist he was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY before BI's timeframe) is a famous beserker, whom is credited to have saved Emain macha single handedly... but not before slaughtering some of the people who he was trying to save because he would descend into a blood lust and just start swinging at anything that was breathing. He was from Ireland.

Gaestae are also another form of what you'd coin as a berserker, they were warriors whom existed all over the loosely knit celtic empire. I would be surprised if there was not a single roman soldier who lost his head in battle, descended into a blood lust and started hacking at everything around him, especially if the formation broke and survival seemed bleak. "beserkers" are hardly deserving of their own unit type. Every man has a breaking point, you cannot at will go into your blood lust and begin hacking everyone to peices, its the individual inside your formation, whom is known for that or not, who it will happen to... unfortunately (really unfortunately, you have no idea how badass it would be to see this happen) we cannot have individual soldiers within a battle go into a blood lust and start hacking everyone to peices. :thumbsdown:

[Phalanx300]

From what I've read Berserkers fought in "Packs" together as shock troops charging into the enemy before the lines met or being kept in reserve by the commander.

And don't underestimate a crazy Berserker, especially if he is in denial of pain(good example of fear):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL7TPs72QOs&feature=channel_page

[machinor]

I think the greatest fear of the spear-guy in that movie was that he might impale the axe-guy. He only needs to poke him in the face to stop him. Quite a stupid demonstration.

[moonburn]

we can always assume they used drugs thus the right type of "soldier" with the right type of drug could be unleashed during batle thus making a unit of bezerkers available

[DaciaJC]

we can always assume they used drugs thus the right type of "soldier" with the right type of drug could be unleashed during batle thus making a unit of bezerkers available

On the contrary, we can never assume anything when dealing with history, especially with relatively undocumented cases such as this.

[bovi]

Relatively undocumented cases are where you need to make assumptions. In well-documented cases, there is less need to make any assumptions, as you have... documentation.

[DaciaJC]

I would think the other way around. When one has sufficient documentation, one can extrapolate minor details. When there is little in the way of primary sources to go on, how can one make large assumptions?

I suppose "never" is the wrong word, though.

[Ludens]

I would think the other way around. When one has sufficient documentation, one can extrapolate minor details.

When discussing EB's time-frame there rarely is enough evidence to extrapolate minor details. To give you an example, of the Romans only one period in their history (the civil wars leading to the fall of the republic and the establishment of the empire) is extensively documented, and even then there are large gaps in our knowledge. So when dealing with an obscure subject, such as the workings and divisions of the Celtic military, one is forced to make large assumptions or simply give up.

[lobf]

we can always assume they used drugs thus the right type of "soldier" with the right type of drug could be unleashed during batle thus making a unit of bezerkers available

Um, no, we can't assume they used drugs, actually. Thanks for playing.

[geala]

In my opinion there would be room for a kind of Sweboz berserkr unit, similar to Celtic Gaesatae (from which we also know very little), perhaps a little weaker. The problem with the Germanics is that we have nearly no knowledge of military things and much other like names or social order prior to the 1st century BC (beside the few weapons et al. findings in graves etc.). Many features of the Sweboz are educated speculation, based on later Germanic military features. Because berserkr were a common feature of later Germanic military, this knowledge could be used for the creation of a Sweboz unit too. Some units in EB 1 (Wild men or this black skinned unit? sry, never played as Sweboz) could be a starter.

[Ludens]

Because berserkr were a common feature of later Germanic military, this knowledge could be used for the creation of a Sweboz unit too.

Were they? Check out this recent discussion (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=121114). The only evidence cited was Speidel, and his case didn't exactly convince. But even if it were true, his case is that berserkers are a tradition or cult, rather than a unit.

[Phalanx300]

Seeing they apparantly fought in "Packs" I gues they could make it in an very small unit. Also read that the Bear warriors are usually called the Berserkers. The wolf ones are already in EB.


Also about the Germanic weapons finding it turned out that they used bones as spearheads(in minority so showing iron was scarce). Also more single edged swords were found then double edged.

I believe they were the Horthborg(something) boat finding and another one where Germanic weapons were found, including barbed javelins(auch)!

[antisocialmunky]

...

[Tellos Athenaios]

Bear warrior 99% likely refers to a warrior who's got himself a bear skin (presumably by doing the dangerous work himself). Not unlike how Herakles is attributed a lion skin; and how animal totems in general are related to desirable traits such as strength and perseverance.

[antisocialmunky]

Eh, I thought this was the other beserker thread.

[Joszen1]

The people living in South Africa prior to european colonization used 'drugs' (made from various plant and animal extracts) on a regular basis for whole regiments of warriors into the 19th century. Individual kingdoms were easily the size of modern day countries such as the Netherlands and Belgium. The people designated with extracting the 'drugs' are a class of 'spiritual-leaders' that in a different time and place could be called druids. I think it highly likely that many warriors in the EB time-frame used such drugs. But a particular cult who use them in every battle seems unlikely. Where does the burden of proof lie. If I were part of the EB team I would put in Beserkers, but that would be a game-play decision. Thankfully I'm not on th EB team and can just enjoy.