Slowing down the phalanx movement

[dejan07]

Is it possible to slow down the phalanx movement equal to the shieldwall?!
Their are both special ability formations so maybe there is a posibillity to do that and it will be more much more historical...

[Aemilius Paulus]

Hmm, that is a great idea. WHy has the EB team not done this? Perhaps they have historical realism as a justification? I have read of pike phalanx charges, but I would assume that in order to keep a neat formation, the phalanx would have to move slowly. Though scaling down to a shieldwall does seem slightly extreme IMHO. But if anyone has a good argument, I will listen gladly, as I have no data here.

[Belisarius II]

I agree that phalanxes should indeed be slowed down, yet as AP stated, to the level of a shield wall would be extreme with the main reason being that shield walls barely moved at all.

The only problem I see with this is that lighter troops would move faster as well as the barbarians with a phalanx (Sweboz & Getai). Reason being, the type of wood. Lighter troops were given a lighter yet weaker wood, while heavier troops were given heavier more sturdy wood. So I think lighter troops should be slightly slower then they are now, with the professional phalanxes having a noticeable decrease in speed.

[dejan07]

The shield wall "speed" was just an idea but it is fact that the phalangites movement was much slower.

In the wargaming community we have the rules which tells us that the phalangites movement is usually 3-4 points(inches) per turn and in the same time a much quicker hypaspistai have 4-5 points and the cavalry 8-9 points(depending on the quallity of the unit and its armour),
also in the rules we state that the phalangites can not make 90° face turns, they can only push forward (there was not one battle in the history that the phalangites have used 90° face turns to left or right) but of course this is not a wargaming forum and the RTW engine is very limited.



Aemilius Paulus i can send you some wargaming documentation about this if you are interested in and for others who do not know what the wargaming is, here is one good example:

http://www.fieldofglory.com/features/1.html

Battle of Magnesia

[antisocialmunky]

They are about that fast. They are fine. RTW is unrealistic in the sense that the enemy army can completely run around yours unless you're doing 2 vs 2 huge. So having a little bit of an unrealistic agility bonus offsets that.

[dejan07]

Sorry if i caused confusion Antisocialmunky but my question was is it possible to do that and if it is, can anyone explain it to me how it's done.I have no intention in changing the opinion of the EB team about their game.

I am doing this because i am a wargamer myself and i cann't stand these "arcade" battles with the phalangites(reasons stated above).
I need more time to outflank the phalangites with the lighter troops before they disperse themselves like the disorganized rabble.

Someone please help!

[Azathoth]

Seriously, phalanxes are too fast? They're one of the slowest units in the game.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Seriously, phalanxes are too fast? They're one of the slowest units in the game.
But they need to be yet slower. Their speed was not changed since vanilla AFAIK, save for that speed curb that was imposed on all EB units pretty equally in the sake of realism.

[dejan07]

I agree with the Aemilius Paulus they have to be slower.

I am looking in the DESCR_BATTLE_MAP_MOVEMENT_MODIFIERS.txt but it seems that this file changes the speed of all units.Hmmmm...
Which file determinates the speed of the shieldwall?!

[Aemilius Paulus]

I am looking in the DESCR_BATTLE_MAP_MOVEMENT_MODIFIERS.txt but it seems that this file changes the speed of all units.Hmmmm...
Which file determinates the speed of the shieldwall?!
Yeah, that is expected. Phalangites travel just as fast as other units. Phalanx formation is what makes them slower. You need to find a file that governs the phalanx formation properties. And something tell me that is hardcoded.

It seems like something CA would leave open, but if phalanx formation was not hardcoded, then why did the EB team not give it special stats, like the shield bonus designed to make a phalanx more vulnerable to rear/flank attacks, but instead applying the shield bonus to just the formation, and not the whole unit as a default?

[Watchman]

Pretty sure both the phalanx and shieldwall are in the .exes.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Pretty sure both the phalanx and shieldwall are in the .exe.
Yep, that's what I though too. I never seen a mod that changed the properties of either.

Thus, this spells the end, the final nail on the coffin of OP's purpose.

[Watchman]

Well it would in principle be possible to give the pikemen slower animations (though there's no "slow" version of the EB one), but obviously that'd slow them down even outside the phalanx too... might also get overridden by the "mechanics" of the active formation, too, but dunno.

[Aemilius Paulus]

might also get overridden by the "mechanics" of the active formation, too, but dunno.
Yeah, it should, as the phalanx formation, just like the shield-wall, will impose its own speed, regardless of the normal speed.

Shoot, but shouldn't the phalangites travel slightly slower even outside of the formation? I mean, that sarissa is no broomstick - it is long and generally cumbersome in terms of its size and weight, even with the balancing (which does not matter if you are holding it up anyway).

[dejan07]

I found a very strange thing about shieldwall speed.

I am playing a on BI.exe with the shieldwall enabled and i have put two units in the shieldwall mode,Lybian hoplites and Sacred band hoplites and press the move button and the sacred band is marching at the normal speed (not the slow shieldwall speed) but the Lybian hoplites not!!!Like i said both were in the shieldwall mode!

What causing this difference in speed?!Have you encountered it too?!
Give it a try...

[Aemilius Paulus]

Meh, a strange bug. I seriously doubt anyone can meddle with those speeds.

[dejan07]

Well at least i have reduced the movement for all units in the DESCR_BATTLE_MAP_MOVEMENT_MODIFIERS.txt which maximizes strategic use of "exhausted" option and minimizes the use of Pause button.
Now my velites and hastati have enough time to throw the pilum at the enemy and cause serios damage before they engage in hand to hand combat.I have always hated when the enemy engages in the combat before they have managed to empty all their missiles and change the weapon before the contact and you will think twice before sending cavalry to galop.

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[satalexton]

i think the phalangitai are good as they are =/ It's just the dancing and pole swinging that irks me....

[Cute Wolf]

I found a very strange thing about shieldwall speed.

I am playing a on BI.exe with the shieldwall enabled and i have put two units in the shieldwall mode,Lybian hoplites and Sacred band hoplites and press the move button and the sacred band is marching at the normal speed (not the slow shieldwall speed) but the Lybian hoplites not!!!Like i said both were in the shieldwall mode!

What causing this difference in speed?!Have you encountered it too?!
Give it a try...

It looks like "underhand spears" got no speed penalty in Shieldwall formations. If u want a comparison, looks how Auxilia Palatina and Fransissca Herbann moved in shieldwall when compared to each other, the Auxilia Palatina moves much faster too... I notice that in my vanilla BI game, but not yet in EB

[dejan07]

Yes you right Cute Wolf!

The same thing happened with Ptolemy's basiliko agemata.
Well it seems it is just a ordinary TW bug. :laugh4:

[Aemilius Paulus]

If u want a comparison, looks how Auxilia Palatina and Fransissca Herbann moved in shieldwall when compared to each other, the Auxilia Palatina moves much faster too... I notice that in my vanilla BI game, but not yet in EB
Who are you joking? That bug must have been fixed in my BI, as I clearly remember being amazed at how gastropodically slowly Auxilia Palatinae moved. I beleive I have patch 1.6, or the latest one here is.