View Full Version : The Mohammed Cartoons - A Response
Yesterday, the Public Ministery of the Netherlands made known that the Arab European League will not be persecuted for their placement of a cartoon in which two Jewish men are standing among a graveyard at Auschwitz stating: "We have to reach six million one way or another."
http://www.nisnews.nl/public/200809_1.htm source in English.
To be honest, I won't side with any party here, but I find the arguments of the Public Ministery in the Netherlands ridiculous; "The Jylland-Posten cartoons did not incite hatred against Muslims". The same could be said about the cartoons posted by the AEL.
Considering freedom of speech; this is not denial of the holocaust, which is banned in most European countries (which I disagree with in the first place). This is a form of criticism on the state of Israel, or Zionism, rather, which I find to be on the same level as criticism of/insulting Islam which came forth from the Jyllands-Posten cartoons. Oh well, we'll see what happens. I'm not sure what to think, actually.
Link to the cartoon (http://gsteinbach.de/1139405537cartoon_2recised.jpg).
English assassin
08-19-2009, 23:02
I don't understand?
Danish paper publishes offensive cartoon, most of Europe shrugs shoulders because that;'s what freedom of speech means,, (part of) Islamic world goes (belatedly) nuts.
AEL publishes offensive cartoon in the hope that they will be punished and can say see, its one rule for muslims and another for the Jews, alas for them, they are not punished, because its one rule for jews and the same rule for muslims after all.
Damn you, Dutch authorities, for being reasonable, instead of the one dimensional anti islamic bogey men we wanted to protray you as.
The only problem is the ministry having got there the hard way?
Centurion1
08-20-2009, 00:14
I don't think it is very classy and very scummy to make jokes like that but i find a flaw with the AEL plan in two places.
1. Not particularly insulting to the dutch as they are not all Jewish. It would be more insulting in Israel, i would imagine.
2. They are trying to get a Western European nation to infringe on freedom of speech. Honestly it probably won't happen for something as stupid as this.
Dutch response is perfect, makes the AEL out as total scummers and they seem level handed.
I am sort of surprised Fragony hasn't posted here yet....
Hooahguy
08-20-2009, 00:30
a cartoon in which two Jewish men are standing among a graveyard at Auschwitz stating: "We have to reach six million one way or another."
Considering freedom of speech; this is not denial of the holocaust,
what the :daisy:?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-20-2009, 00:32
In the Netherlands, why isn't it a picture of Peter taking Jesus off the cross alive, or of John Calvin dancing on an alter whilst playing a fiddle?
The target they picked says more about them than anything else, surely.
Hooahguy
08-20-2009, 00:51
wasnt the artist who drew those anti-muslim cartoons a while back christian? so why do a cartoon against jews?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-20-2009, 01:26
what the :daisy:?
I think it's more on the order of the numbers being inflated, and that Jews milk the Holocaust for political sympathy.
Not exactly in good taste, but not quite Holocaust denial either.
Hooahguy
08-20-2009, 01:32
while the number of jews who died wasnt exactly, 6 million, it was pretty darn close.
its holocaust denial. dont try to make it anything less than what it is: a disgusting piece of jew-hatred.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-20-2009, 01:41
while the number of jews who died wasnt exactly, 6 million, it was pretty darn close.
its holocaust denial. dont try to make it anything less than what it is: a disgusting piece of jew-hatred.
Calm down, it's meant to be insulting and provocative; so don't let them provoke you into being insulted.
As I said, it's a political cartoon. It's not acceptable, but nor is the suggestion that a legendary religious leader kept bombs in his headgear.
Hooahguy
08-20-2009, 01:43
but nor is the suggestion that a legendary religious leader kept bombs in his headgear.
agreed.
LittleGrizzly
08-20-2009, 01:46
dont try to make it anything less than what it is: a disgusting piece of jew-hatred.
Its no different to the Muslim hatred of the other cartoons, support thier freedom to do such stuff but i do wonder why the artists of both cartoons did what they did...
Probably both sets of artists are immature and needed a channel for thier anger agianst jews (or muslims in mohammed cartoon example)
I wonder will the mainstream media reprint these to prove they have freedom of speech and are not afraid of being un pc ?
Vladimir
08-20-2009, 02:32
Another loss for teh Muslims. They should have posted a cartoon of Jesus having gay sex with Judas. Place it in a newspaper in Alabama. That would get the response they were looking for.
Aemilius Paulus
08-20-2009, 04:35
Another loss for teh Muslims. They should have posted a cartoon of Jesus having gay sex with Judas. Place it in a newspaper in Alabama. That would get the response they were looking for.
Whoa, that is some commendable imagination there...
That said I heard there was one notably infamous pornographic film on Jesus called "The Last Temptation". I doubt it had homosexual acts in it, and yet IIRC, the film was not quite that controversial, I suppose because the porno industry lost its shock value after we had been desensitised with its outrageous fetishes.
Hmm, but on the Holocaust issue, AFAIK, more Slavs died in the German hands than Jews. Yet I have only heard one person citing that (besides books), and it was my college Humanities professor. What exactly is considered a "Holocaust" casualty? Germans slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Jews in occupied USSR. The most (in)famous site of such massacre was Babi Yar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar), not too far from Kiev. I have been there myself in fact.
Then you have the mass cleansing of villages. In larger cities Jews were usually too numerous to be dealt with in the "regular" manner (firing squads), so they were usually transferred to death/concentration camps or even factories at times, to work there. In villages and very small towns, however, the Jews were usually murdered on the spot. My grandparents lived in one of such villages. On my fathers side, my grandfather witnessed his best friend, a Jewish boy of 12-14 years, being executed. It was something my grandfather always remembered. The poor boy's army was shot off in the initial volley, and he was the lone survivor. He ran and thrashed until the Romanian collaborators dispatched him with a rifle butt. Yeah, that was another detail. Usually, the Germans were too finicky about actually carrying out the "business" themselves and instead had collaborators, usually the Romanian soldiers, do the butchering.
So villages were combed and rendered "Judenrein", but is that counted as the Holocaust death toll, or is it a mere civilian casualty toll of USSR? Such villages numbered in hundreds of thousands. My grandparent spoke of the thriving Jewish communities in the Moldova-Ukraine border (where they live) but after the war, they said, there could not be found as much as a single Jew. Same with their own village. To this day, it has no Jews. But the size of the Jewish cemetery there is quite impressive, indicating a bustling Jewish population in that village.
This said, calculating the number of Jews killed in USSR is a daunting, truly Herculean task, so was it ever done, and included in the Holocaust figure or not?
Kadagar_AV
08-20-2009, 07:07
people should be able to say / sing / type / paint WHATEVER...
if you take offense, boycott and move on with your life.
If that cartoon upsets you you should grow a thicker skin.
edit: what is Auswitch. Never heard of it. Major fail.
Technically it is not a Holocaust denial…
And I do think that 6 millions is in fact an underestimation of the total. Because the only “figures” are from the recovered archives of some organised camps which doesn’t count the ones who never made it in the camp, the ones who were killed without registration and the immense number killed in the village of former USSR, Poland and other Eastern countries (e.g. Croatia and Hungary) as Aemilius Paulus pointed out…
The other problem is to separate who was Slavs and who was Jews. Or is a Political Commissar in the Red Army was killed because he was a Political Commissar or because he was a Jew? Both. Where do you put in? If you are picky I mean…
The other point as Hoohaguy mentioned, is why do they draw against the Jews if it is a real answer to the Mohamed pictures? It is because they are anti-Semitic…
Some like Kadagar AV think it is their right to be and to express it. I don’t.
The other point as Hoohaguy mentioned, is why do they draw against the Jews if it is a real answer to the Mohamed pictures? It is because they are anti-Semitic…
Sure but so what really. In this country you can be deeply insulted, no free pass for jews.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/bar-rafaeli-4.jpg
Anti-semites, their loss
edit: Hans Teeuwen says it best. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d8c_1199897954
Kadagar_AV
08-20-2009, 08:46
Some like Kadagar AV think it is their right to be and to express it. I don’t.
You argue against my right to be, or my right to express it, or both?
I believe in the idea of the "free word". Say whatever you want to say, if it makes sence people will listen, if it doesnt make sence people wont.
Why do we need laws to regulate that?
Kralizec
08-20-2009, 10:27
I've been aware of the AEL's existance for years, but they rarely manage to make the news. The last time I heard of them was right after the unrest in the middle east during the cartoon crisis when they started...publishing anti-semetic cartoons. So when I first read this I had a major case of deja-vu.
I agree that both the Danish cartoons and these ones should be considered acts of free speech - but it does expose them for what they are, a bunch of anti-semites craving for attention.
Also, holocaust denial is technically not illegal in the Netherlands. There's a general article in our Criminal Code that makes insulting religious or ethnic groups illegal. So if you tried to make a serious case that the holocaust did not take place without anti-semetic slogans or whatnot, you would be ridiculed but not punished.
Kadagar_AV
08-20-2009, 11:00
ridicule, over what?
did a *amount of jews get killed? Indeed...
Is the amount the alleged 6 mil...
Jury is still out on that one.
Don't get me wrong, I dont care if it was 1 mil or 6 mil... It is not about statistics but about the crime against humanity that was commited...
However, as a historian I take the number of 6mil with a grain of salt, in the same way I take the story of Thermopyle with a grain of salt...
300 spartans against 2 million persians?
300 spartans and 1000 helping troops against 500.000 persions?
History has claimed both. The net result however is that it was a marvelous deed.
6 million jews or 2 million jews?
Who cares, a lot of jews were killed for being jewish. It is not about the number, it is about the act.
All the more tasteful
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/forum090530_620.jpg
The long toes of the dutch and the opinion of docter Nataniel (from the CIDI Israel relations organisation) from the clinic of difficult feet.
On the left toe is 'blasphemy' on the right toe holocaust denial.
'the left one can be fixed with surgery, the right one is supposed to be like that'
Rhyfelwyr
08-20-2009, 12:31
Does being a holocaust denier have to mean you are anti-semitic anyway? Maybe some people just believe it was exaggerated/used for Allied propaganda/whatever. I don't think that but you know what some conspiracy theorists are like, it seems unfair to lock them up for it.
Although I never understand why neo-Nazi's deny the holocuast... don't they just want another one anyway? :shrug:
Although I never understand why neo-Nazi's deny the holocuast... don't they just want another one anyway? :shrug:
Maybe they just can't come to terms with the nazi's being the sick bastards they were.
LittleGrizzly
08-21-2009, 00:21
Although I never understand why neo-Nazi's deny the holocuast... don't they just want another one anyway?
I have checked out Nazi forums (quite intresting) and they seem to swop between celebrating it, denying it and accepting something happened but questioning the scale and brutality of it...
I think some of the more logical thinking racists realise that despite they fact they see it as a victory from the past its the worst pr ever for more normal people... but they can't seperate from it too much as jew hating is an important part of who the hardcore members are..
To give a political example it would be like Labour did shifting thier politics, it disenfranchised thier core vote...
Holocaust deniers have the same right to their views as the flat earth society. Let them be and let them spout their nonsense. Who cares?
Hooahguy
08-21-2009, 16:21
Holocaust deniers have the same right to their views as the flat earth society. Let them be and let them spout their nonsense. Who cares?
maybe in the fear that they may actually convince some people? :shrug:
It's just sad that jews get the flak for these toons. Muslims can't really insult Jesus without insulting their own religion, so they lash out at Jews. Just like if somebody in Israel drew up a few Jesus cartoons, christians wouldn't be able to insult Abraham or Moses, it would be like spitting into your own food.
I think they are lashing out at freedom of speech with that cartoon, must have thought they were really smart. Now they look like attention-whores grabbing at straws, exactly how I like it.
finger -> face -> MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That is how you deal with extremists.
Centurion1
08-21-2009, 17:52
It is just trash and scummy. all they are doing is embarrassing themselves and decreasing peoples views as them being a legitimate political entity. While the jokes are distasteful and i think that if i found someone who laughed at it i would beat the :furious3: out of them, it is legal unfortunately. Unless you live in a country that doesn't have free speech...
Oh and is holocaust denial really illegal in Europe, wow is it a result of ww2 wartime guilt?
Oh and is holocaust denial really illegal in Europe?
Not here, but in theory you can be charged with inciting hatred, would be an interesting testcase.
Centurion1
08-21-2009, 18:08
But it is illegal in other European nations?
Oh so like you have to be like publicly demonstrating and doing so in a vulgar and hateful way for the authorities to bring you up on charges?
Hooahguy
08-21-2009, 18:11
i think in Germany and Austria its illegal.
Oh so like you have to be like publicly demonstrating and doing so in a vulgar and hateful way for the authorities to bring you up on charges?
You would have to go very far, when neo-nanny's are arrested it's because of fights with anti-facists. The harcore nazi's usually come from Belgium and Germany and they are allowed to do their thing here. We don't really have such a thing as an extreme right maybe a few dozen and even that seems to be 90% lifestyle, Hitler fanboys.
Sarmatian
08-21-2009, 18:36
maybe in the fear that they may actually convince some people? :shrug:
So?
There's been so many mass murders and genocides in the history of the world and we can talk freely and discuss our views on each and every one of those, why should one of them be exempted? Why should having a different opinion about one of them be a crime?
So?
There's been so many mass murders and genocides in the history of the world and we can talk freely and discuss our views on each and every one of those, why should one of them be exempted? Why should having a different opinion about one of them be a crime?
Depending on the severity, why wouldn't we have a different opinion about different crimes. If 10 are killed it are 10 personal tragedy's, if 1000 gets killed it are 1000 personal tragedy's, killing 1000 is a worse crime than killling 10.
Depending on the severity, why wouldn't we have a different opinion about different crimes. If 10 are killed it are 10 personal tragedy's, if 1000 gets killed it are 1000 personal tragedy's, killing 1000 is a worse crime than killling 10.
Of course, let us all start persecuting those in the military. I mean, it's pretty much their duty to kill other people, isn't it?
Ever heard about the Holodomor? The average intelligence level of the people on the .org is pretty high, but if you go in the streets, I don't figure a lot of people heard of it.
The Holocaust was a horrible thing, and it did happen, but I must say that the Zionists marketed the situation pretty good. This does not make attacks on Jews more justified, but they did used the situation to their advantage. A shame.
I am sorry but what? I want to see at least 3 paragraphs between these two sentences.
Between this: The Holocaust was a horrible thing
And this: but I must say that the Zionists marketed the situation pretty good.
edit; horrible as it may be, but cutting of food supplies is legitimate tactics, may not be a very nice thing to do but blockades are part of the game. Ethnical cleansing on a scale like this isn't. You could wonder if our souther neighbours massacred 50 million Africans or just let them rot, what was it genocide or extreme inhumanity, must be in the intention.
“You argue against my right to be, or my right to express it, or both?” Both.:beam:
If you are advocating for a criminal organisation, if you express your support for a criminal organisation, yes, indeed you have to be barred from possibility to express or/and recruit…
We had this debate yet. If a Nazi (nazism had proved itself so there are no doubt about the ideology) can convert and gain power, (because with freedom of speech goes the freedom of association), can you tell me at what moment you will take your weapons to fight against the Abomination? Or will you accept that because there were elected, they can implement the programme consisting of killing minorities and others a-social members or society? But if you do take weapons, at what moment will you do this? They had the right to be Nazi. They had the right to express it. They had the right to form a party and to win elections, so they had the right to vote laws… So tell me, at what moment won’t you accept Democracy and the will of the majority?
My answer is clear: Pas de liberté pour les ennemis de la liberté (St Just, in my memory serves me). No freedom for the enemies of freedom.
The law is clear. If you advocate murders, if you don’t respect the laws and the Principles of the Republic, you are out law so can’t claim the protection of the law you fight. I t is THE social contract…:yes:
“Why do we need laws to regulate that?” You’ve got my answer…
“I believe in the idea of the "free word"”
That is a dream. :hippy:
I don’t because words kill. Words respectful of the lives and dignities of others yes, the “kill the infidels/atheists/different/not at all like us” no. I saw what speeches of hatred do, and it is not nice…
“Who cares, a lot of jews were killed for being jewish. It is not about the number, it is about the act.” Agree.
“Holocaust deniers have the same right to their views as the flat earth society. Let them be and let them spout their nonsense. Who cares?”
Nope. In 200 years Earth will be still a pear shape. In 400 years what will be remember from Nazism… As much we remember from Genghis Khan? What do we remember of Ashurnasirpal and his methods of conquest?
“There's been so many mass murders and genocides in the history of the world and we can talk freely and discuss our views on each and every one of those, why should one of them be exempted? Why should having a different opinion about one of them be a crime?”
You can have an opinion about how many and how, that a debate. Denying is not an option. When Tudjman publicly questioned Jasenovac figures, he made a political comment and not a point in history, as the following story (and History) proved it.
:deal2:
Centurion1
08-22-2009, 00:53
Of course, let us all start persecuting those in the military. I mean, it's pretty much their duty to kill other people, isn't it?
I am sorry but that is a stupid and ignorant comment. Their duty is to protect and defend. They do not kill they defend.
I am not saying you are stupid or anti-military of course.
LittleGrizzly
08-22-2009, 01:50
I am sorry but that is a stupid and ignorant comment. Their duty is to protect and defend. They do not kill they defend.
Alot of the Western military's have seemed alot more offensive than defensive to my mind... come to think of it pretty much all military's that have been big enough to do it go and attack other countrys...
You could make a bit of a case for Afghanastan being defensive (that ones a little bit of a strech) but Iraq had nothing at all to do with defense... that was a purely offensive war...
Kralizec
08-22-2009, 14:04
“You argue against my right to be, or my right to express it, or both?” Both.:beam:
If you are advocating for a criminal organisation, if you express your support for a criminal organisation, yes, indeed you have to be barred from possibility to express or/and recruit…
We had this debate yet. If a Nazi (nazism had proved itself so there are no doubt about the ideology) can convert and gain power, (because with freedom of speech goes the freedom of association), can you tell me at what moment you will take your weapons to fight against the Abomination? Or will you accept that because there were elected, they can implement the programme consisting of killing minorities and others a-social members or society? But if you do take weapons, at what moment will you do this? They had the right to be Nazi. They had the right to express it. They had the right to form a party and to win elections, so they had the right to vote laws… So tell me, at what moment won’t you accept Democracy and the will of the majority?
My answer is clear: Pas de liberté pour les ennemis de la liberté (St Just, in my memory serves me). No freedom for the enemies of freedom.
The law is clear. If you advocate murders, if you don’t respect the laws and the Principles of the Republic, you are out law so can’t claim the protection of the law you fight. I t is THE social contract…:yes:
“Why do we need laws to regulate that?” You’ve got my answer…
“I believe in the idea of the "free word"”
That is a dream. :hippy:
I don’t because words kill. Words respectful of the lives and dignities of others yes, the “kill the infidels/atheists/different/not at all like us” no. I saw what speeches of hatred do, and it is not nice…
“Who cares, a lot of jews were killed for being jewish. It is not about the number, it is about the act.” Agree.
“Holocaust deniers have the same right to their views as the flat earth society. Let them be and let them spout their nonsense. Who cares?”
Nope. In 200 years Earth will be still a pear shape. In 400 years what will be remember from Nazism… As much we remember from Genghis Khan? What do we remember of Ashurnasirpal and his methods of conquest?
“There's been so many mass murders and genocides in the history of the world and we can talk freely and discuss our views on each and every one of those, why should one of them be exempted? Why should having a different opinion about one of them be a crime?”
You can have an opinion about how many and how, that a debate. Denying is not an option. When Tudjman publicly questioned Jasenovac figures, he made a political comment and not a point in history, as the following story (and History) proved it.
:deal2:
There's a double standard in regards to discussions about mass murders. Or at least a great divergence in what is and what is not acceptable about certain mass murders, either socially or legally.
Both the Netherlands and France have comitted some pretty heinous acts in the period of decolonisation. Should we punish those who question these atrocities?
Should the German government start punishing those of Turkish descent who deny the Armenian genocide, especially since they already punish holocaust denial?
In other threads you have stated that western politicians and media have exaggerated the extent of Serbian atrocities in the Balkans and mischaracterised them as genocide. Would the Republic of Kosovo be right if they decide to punish you, should you ever set foot there?
“Both the Netherlands and France have committed some pretty heinous acts in the period of decolonisation. Should we punish those who question these atrocities?”
I don’t know at least in France a movement denying the Colonial atrocities… You have indeed some who try to say that in fact Colonialism wasn’t so bad but that it is.
“Should the German government start punishing those of Turkish descent who deny the Armenian genocide, especially since they already punish holocaust denial?” I never speak about punishing the descents of perpetuators of any old genocide. I am speaking of punishing people who plan new one… No one in actual Turkeys as far as know is planning a new one.
“In other threads you have stated that western politicians and media have exaggerated the extent of Serbian atrocities in the Balkans and mischaracterized them as genocide.” Yep, I did and I do. So? I always said to question the figures and the methods were a way to do History.
Nobody denied Serbian atrocities, not me at least. What I questioned and will is the Genocide qualification for war crimes (and the obvious difference of treatment of the others who committed exactly the same things, including Kosovars).
“Would the Republic of Kosovo be right if they decide to punish you, should you ever set foot there?” Interesting question: Does the Republic of Kosovo having a Court proceeding about this? No. So question resolved.
But I do understand the question. The main problem would be for the accusation to prove genocide and I think they won’t be able to do so unless twisting the concept as the International Court of Justice did. But every thing is possible in this world where International borders of Croatia, Bosnia and Georgia are not touchable but the ones of Serbia are. Then to ask the Serbs not to touch the Borders of the Republic of Kosovo because suddenly International laws are again in power… A world where Albanians can’t live together with Serbs in Serbia but Serbs and Albanians can live together in Republic of Kosovo…
"There's a double standard" I am authorised. It is the back room.:beam:
Kralizec
08-22-2009, 20:29
“Both the Netherlands and France have committed some pretty heinous acts in the period of decolonisation. Should we punish those who question these atrocities?”
I don’t know at least in France a movement denying the Colonial atrocities… You have indeed some who try to say that in fact Colonialism wasn’t so bad but that it is.
It's pretty much the same here, but the question was hypothetical.
“Should the German government start punishing those of Turkish descent who deny the Armenian genocide, especially since they already punish holocaust denial?” I never speak about punishing the descents of perpetuators of any old genocide. I am speaking of punishing people who plan new one… No one in actual Turkeys as far as know is planning a new one.
They deny the old one because they agree that genocide is unacceptable and can't accept the fact that it was more than a deportation with some collatoral deaths.
With neo-nazis it's less clear - I imagine that the same goes for most of them, but perhaps the smarter ones realize it would be bad PR to publicly embrace genocide as a stated political goal.
“In other threads you have stated that western politicians and media have exaggerated the extent of Serbian atrocities in the Balkans and mischaracterized them as genocide.” Yep, I did and I do. So? I always said to question the figures and the methods were a way to do History.
Nobody denied Serbian atrocities, not me at least. What I questioned and will is the Genocide qualification for war crimes (and the obvious difference of treatment of the others who committed exactly the same things, including Kosovars).
“Would the Republic of Kosovo be right if they decide to punish you, should you ever set foot there?” Interesting question: Does the Republic of Kosovo having a Court proceeding about this? No. So question resolved.[/QUOTE]
Again the question was hypothetical. I wouldn't put it past them, though.
Cute Wolf
08-24-2009, 05:45
Really interesting topic... Giving the fact that most of u know..... that most of muslims DID deny the holocaust (Nooo I didn't talk about muslims who lived in america or europe..... I talk about most who lived here in Indonesia :embarassed:)... That's because most of them are regularly get much misinformation propaganda every friday here... As most of hard-line muslim clerics did sown hatred for jews and christians
for someone that knows him in EB forum.... just ask Sonic.
He is a muslim who regularly hear more about that...
nonononononono shutup shutup lalalalalaaaaaaaaaaIamnothearinganything
Indonesia has jews?
Megas Methuselah
08-24-2009, 08:59
I am sorry but that is a stupid and ignorant comment. Their duty is to protect and defend. They do not kill they defend.
I am not saying you are stupid or anti-military of course.
Hahaha.
Furunculus
08-24-2009, 10:17
I don't understand?
Danish paper publishes offensive cartoon, most of Europe shrugs shoulders because that;'s what freedom of speech means,, (part of) Islamic world goes (belatedly) nuts.
AEL publishes offensive cartoon in the hope that they will be punished and can say see, its one rule for muslims and another for the Jews, alas for them, they are not punished, because its one rule for jews and the same rule for muslims after all.
Damn you, Dutch authorities, for being reasonable, instead of the one dimensional anti islamic bogey men we wanted to protray you as.
The only problem is the ministry having got there the hard way?
awesome summation, agreed.
on a separate note:
> neither is incitement to violence, so i have a problem with neither.
> taking the mick out of the industrial murder of six million people (give or take), is definitely in worse taste than making jokes about god advocating murder. actual murder is an order of magnitude worse than incitement to murder.
Cute Wolf
08-25-2009, 11:03
nonononononono shutup shutup lalalalalaaaaaaaaaaIamnothearinganything
Indonesia has jews?
A small community leftover in Jakarta..... well, leftover from YOURS :laugh4:
A small community leftover in Jakarta..... well, leftover from YOURS :laugh4:
Yeah sorry about that :sweatdrop:
We still don't seem to be able to come to terms with what we did there, we are too much in love with ourselves. Gotten many a confused gaze after explaining that we killed a hundred thousand or even more Indonesians after WW2 they just didn't know.
Adrian II
08-26-2009, 22:35
Yeah sorry about that :sweatdrop:
We still don't seem to be able to come to terms with what we did there, we are too much in love with ourselves. Gotten many a confused gaze after explaining that we killed a hundred thousand or even more Indonesians after WW2 they just didn't know.Funny, isn't it? Indonesians generally have no problem with the Dutch colonial episode, they seem to be hardly aware of it. When it comes to past mass murders, they are far more concerned about their 'own' half million or so dead caused by the internal troubles in the 1960's. In Indonesia you won't find the sort of animosity that we used to have in post-war Europe between various peoples, and particularly against Germans.
The AEL are a shadow of themselves since Dyab left for the Lebanon. He was a smart guy, sophisticated, even visionary. The fact that they (attempt to) offend Jews in revenge for the alleged offense of the Danish cartoons merely proves how stupid and Jew-fixated they are. Let them be.
And as for boycotting Israel - you don't boycot this if you know what's good for you:
https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8652/israeligirl.jpg (https://img12.imageshack.us/i/israeligirl.jpg/)
Louis VI the Fat
08-26-2009, 22:55
I really have a 'are they just stupid or plain malicious?' feeling about these anti-Semitic cartoons. From Iran to Turkey to this latest episode, Mohammed cartoons are compared with Holocaust denial in a bid to show a Western double standard.
But, the equivalent to Mohammed cartoons would be, roughly, a Moses cartoon, or a Jesus or Buddha cartoon. The equivalent to anti-Semitic Holocaust denial cartoons would be plain anti-Islamic, or anti-Arab cartoons.
So there is no double standard in the West. Roughly, the latter are all equally forbidden (or legal but frowned upon). The former are all equally allowed, and equally considered in poor taste.
The one problem is, that there is a difference in religious and national identity. A Westerner has a national and a religious identity. Whereas - at least to some - 'Islamic' is an all-encompassing identity. An insult of Mohammed then equals a personal attack, and an attack on the group, instead of the religion.
Centurion1
08-26-2009, 23:45
There is often a double standard in muslim culture though. for instance if i shouted death to pope benedict many people would probably applaud me, if i shouted death to some imam i would probably be murdered.
There is often a double standard in muslim culture though. for instance if i shouted death to pope benedict many people would probably applaud me, if i shouted death to some imam i would probably be murdered.
Muslim culture? Sunni, Twelver Shi'a, Ismaïlism, Sufi, Nizari, etc?
Do you honestly believe Nizari Muslims really care what a random Imam from India said? That would be the same that stating that Rhefylwyr here would follow everything what Benedictus says. There are many Muslim branches.
Adrian II
08-27-2009, 01:25
There is often a double standard in muslim culture though. for instance if i shouted death to pope benedict many people would probably applaud me, if i shouted death to some imam i would probably be murdered.My Alevite friends would shrug this off. Tolerance is their second name, solidarity and neighbourly love are their main qualities. They count among my very best friends. If you want to argue that islam has a history of intolerance or that it is all too easily invoked by intolerant regimes and unwashed sheikhs, feel free, but please refrain from categoric statements.
Centurion1
08-27-2009, 01:32
Sorry, of course i did not mean to make such a generalization. Perhpas i would be better off by saying that for people like those who appear to be in charge of the AEL there is a double standard.
It was stupid of me to make such a broad statement
Cute Wolf
08-30-2009, 14:09
And as for boycotting Israel - you don't boycot this if you know what's good for you:
https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8652/israeligirl.jpg (https://img12.imageshack.us/i/israeligirl.jpg/)
Seconded
I didn't hate Israel....... but most of my muslim friends did... if they could see this more clearly...:embarassed:
Seconded
I didn't hate Israel....... but most of my muslim friends did... if they could see this more clearly...:embarassed:
Ahum
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/bar-rafaeli-4.jpg
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-30-2009, 22:36
Ok, so should we just link to the "Babe Thread" now?
Seriously though, the perception of homogenity among "Muslims" in the West is at least in part a result of certain Islamic groups projecting that image.
Ok, so should we just link to the "Babe Thread" now?
Seriously though, the perception of homogenity among "Muslims" in the West is at least in part a result of certain Islamic groups projecting that image.
Who gives a hoot what they think of the west
Ask the victims of 9/11.
The likes who did that kill their own people for singing at wedding party's and in general make everybody's life hell, don't care about their opinion. If they have one. Which I doubt.
Centurion1
09-01-2009, 01:13
Ask the victims of 9/11.
Those who commited that atrocity are groups of very radical Muslims that deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth. if they were any other faith i would say the same.
Those who commited that atrocity are groups of very radical Muslims that deserve to be wiped off the face of the earth. if they were any other faith i would say the same.
Without immediately pointing a finger at anyone, I believe this might very well closely resemble their point of view as well. Switch 9/11 with the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan and Muslims with Christians, and you have the point of view of any random Al-Qaïda extremist.
Don't get me wrong, I'd rather see America sustaining their power at the moment than to have the worldwide power (which the United States doesn't have) grasped by radical Islamic groups.
I wish to stress that if what you say was true indeed, why didn't the United States even try to send some assassins in to deal with some of the higher-ranking Al-Qaïda and Taliban leaders. That might have, eventually, saved a lot of bloodshed. If we have to choose between two evils, at least try to choose the lesser one.
Afghanistan is a tricky thing, however. Its tribalistic system would make a transition to a fairly democratic system take fairly long. What I suggest? Education. If you teach them at a low age the difference between tribalism and democracy and stress the advantages of the latter one, there might be hope.
Centurion1
09-01-2009, 02:49
I wish to stress that if what you say was true indeed, why didn't the United States even try to send some assassins in to deal with some of the higher-ranking Al-Qaïda and Taliban leaders. That might have, eventually, saved a lot of bloodshed. If we have to choose between two evils, at least try to choose the lesser one.
That sort of operation is easier said than done. and some were assassinated, however doing so ironically makes america seem like even more of a bad guy, and often such operations become political ammunition for rivals.
Without immediately pointing a finger at anyone, I believe this might very well closely resemble their point of view as well. Switch 9/11 with the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan and Muslims with Christians, and you have the point of view of any random Al-Qaïda extremist.
The funny part is that though that is what the random radical muslim thinks is simply untrue. You can say what you like about American but we are definitely a melting pot and it was most definitely not only christian "crusaders" fighting there. They are not even all American. America is just a convenient scapegoat for most groups because we are much more forgiving than Russia or China for example and we are the "superpower" of the world.
““Should the German government start punishing those of Turkish descent who deny the Armenian genocide, especially since they already punish holocaust denial?” I never speak about punishing the descents of perpetuators of any old genocide. I am speaking of punishing people who plan new one… No one in actual Turkeys as far as know is planning a new one.
So why punish the descendants of perpetuators of another "old genocide"? Neo-Nazis deny it in some racist or nationalistic way, the same way a nationalist or racist Turk would deny the Armenian Genocide.
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