Israel - Sweden conflict (Israel attack free press) [Archive]

Kadagar_AV

08-22-2009, 15:43

Ok, I will try to summarize and make a long story short.

Swedens biggest newspaper, Aftonbladet, recently ran an article on kidneys sold on the black market. The article included, among other things, 3 topics that came to be important in a brewing Swedish/Israeli political conflict.

1. How palestinians accused the israeli army of stealing kidneys and other organs from their victims.
2. How a rabbin in New York recently got arrested by the FBI for black market kidney trafficking.
3. How he himself witnessed how a young palestinian who was shot by the army was crudely cut open before body was returned to the family.

Article in Swedish (http://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/article5652583.ab)

This seems to have lead to a media scream in Israel, accusing Aftonbladet to be anti-semit.

Now, this could have stopped here and all would have been well.

However, now the political stage is entered by the Swedish Ambassador in Israel. She writes an official memo about how the swedish people are as appaled as the israeli by this article, and she condemns the article as a whole.

Granted, Aftonbladet do not take this lightly. Aftonbladet of course make a big deal out of this (free PR), asking first how she thinks she can speak for the people in this issue, secondly questioning a politicians right to attack an article, given we have free press.

The ambassadors memo was very soon removed.

Now, this is where israeli officials starts to understand they can jump on the bandwagon.

Politicians in Israel has a field day, spluttering the normal phrases of "6 million jews was killed and now you dare, YOU DARE, to...................."

There is talk about boycotting the swedish foreign minister from his planned visit to Israel soon...

Basicly, a lot of politicians flexing their muscles, growing their penises.

The swedish prime minister today had to make it clear that the swedish government do not censore or comment on articles, cause of our constitution.

Israeli politicians today went as far as stating things like "this reminds of swedens actions in the second world war, when...."

*sigh*

My 2gc, maybe israel should investigate the sources behind the article instead of all-out accusing the newspaper of anti-semitism?

As a sidenote, maybe they shouldnt play the 6-million card in every single skirmish, save it for the big battles, so to say. It's a little bit like teh story of the boy who shouted "wolf!"

Beirut

08-22-2009, 17:59

Whether the story is true or not is beside the point, at least the point being that if a dog farts on the same block that a synagogue is located, its owner is branded an anti-Semite.

The term has been thrown about so carelessly and for so long that it has been rendered meaningless and simply makes the accuser look too defensive as well as making him sound like a bad cliche from a B movie.

Hell, if I buy a chocolate bar from a Palestinian I'm sure there are some who would call me an anti-Semite. It's a ridiculous term meant to stiffle free speech and free action through intimidation. As such, it is to be ignored, and the user of the term looked upon with suspicion.

Seamus Fermanagh

08-23-2009, 04:40

Beirut:

I never thought you an anti-semite. I DO think you're virulently anti-Israel.

Both you and Kadagar are correct that too many in Israel are far too ready to lob that particular epithet around and this does serve to deflat its value.

Good Lord, I just agreed with Kadagar...:sweatdrop:. Anyone seen any seals cracking?

Hooahguy

08-23-2009, 05:08

yeah- the term anti-semite has been thrown around too often.

Incongruous

08-23-2009, 11:25

What is far more interesting is the accusation against the IDF, if true, it would finally and clearly illustrate the fascist nature of the IDF (note, fascism is not actually in theory anti-semetic and nor is it another way to spell Nazism) and the racism of Israel. It's disgusting.

Beirut

08-23-2009, 12:32

Beirut:

I never thought you an anti-semite. I DO think you're virulently anti-Israel.

I appreciate your candor.

As to being anti-Israel, if the issue is taken to mean "anti-Israeli policy towards the Palestinians", then yes, virulently is the exact word to use.

Fragony

08-23-2009, 13:12

If this is true it's one of the sickest things I ever heard.

KukriKhan

08-23-2009, 14:14

This is a continuation of the story in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=119829#top), yes? The cash for kidneys scandal that netted 44 arrests of rabbis and politicians over here, last month?

I'm not fluent in Swedish, but my sense of Kadagar's linked article is that Donald Boström, the author of the story, is doing some investigative journalism, and naming names.

So, my questions are:

1) Is sensitivity to The Holocaust still high enough in Europe that charges of anti-semitism can be taken seriously?

2) Do you think that sensitivity has lessened?

3) If so, do you think it will continue to lessen in the future, to the point that charges of anti-semitism will be ignored or ridiculed, or in some other way lose their impact?

--------------------------
Quite apart from that aspect: ugh. Gruesome backstory of Franken-kidneys.

Beskar

08-23-2009, 14:40

There are anti-Semitics and the charge can be applied to them, however, what appears to be the case in the story, is that some Israeli's did this whole scandal and they are simply reporting on it. The charge cannot be applied in this case.

Beirut

08-23-2009, 14:41

So, my questions are:

1) Is sensitivity to The Holocaust still high enough in Europe that charges of anti-semitism can be taken seriously?

2) Do you think that sensitivity has lessened?

3) If so, do you think it will continue to lessen in the future, to the point that charges of anti-semitism will be ignored or ridiculed, or in some other way lose their impact?

(1) - Sensitivity to the Holocaust in Canada is high amongst many people. Montreal has, I believe, one of the largest communities of Holocaust survivors outside of Israel.

(2) - If you mean the Holocaust, yes. Mostly, I believe, because people are tired of endlessly being beaten over the head with it. The Jewish community can do and say and think what they want. But the rest of us are a bit sick and tired of being told that it not only was the worst thing in all of history to happen, but that it has to be the worst thing in all of history to happen. And if you add up every 20th Century genocide, I'll bet you $50 that all of them together are not mentioned half as much as the Holocaust all by itself. It's been overplayed for too long, often for the wrong reasons, and people are getting annoyed.

Also, Canada's laws saying that questiniong the Holocaust is a crime don't help. People don't like being told that they can question anything in the entire scope of God's Creation... except that. It insults their intelligence and makes them feel like they are being told what to think. And no one likes being told what to think.

(3) - Yes. Charges of anti-Semitism are already being ignored. You hear it so often, and for such patently stupid and politically expedient reasons, that it truly borders on being meaningless.

edyzmedieval

08-23-2009, 14:47

Argh, another one of these pointless and totally stupid reactions to an article against Israel. I wholeheartedly agree with Beirut on this one, the Holocaust has been so much on the news it lost its true value. It's like we're almost turning it into a TV series for high ratings to support the cause of Israel against those "dastardly Arabs".

Disgusting. :no:

Hooahguy

08-23-2009, 15:05

ok so now that we agree the term anti-semite and other sunsequent terms have been thrown around too much, where does this whole thread go?

lars573

08-23-2009, 15:30

To the dogs.

Kadagar_AV

08-23-2009, 15:33

I see 2 directions this thread can go in, given we seem to have a general concencus that anti-semite gets thrown around too much.

1. How come Israel wants to censor the free press? From the US we constantly hear we have to defend Israel because it is the only democracy in the region, yet, so many cases of undemocratic tendensies are shown on a more or less regular basis.

As a swede, I really do take offense when foreign politicians wants to limit our right to free speach.

2. The accusations in the article.

I will explain this a little bit more.

The reporter describes how he were in a palestinian village, when the following took place.

A) A 19 year old boy had been throwing stones at IDF. He was seen as one of the leaders behind recent stone throwings. An IDF patroll from the special forces waited in his village till he came back there, and shot him on sight.

B) The 19 year olds family and friends of course wanted the body to bury, but were not allowed to. People from the red cross also in vain argued for control of the body. But the IDF put the body on a jeep and drew it to a waiting helicopter.

C) 5 days later, the body is returned to the village. However, the military upon returning cuts electricity and comes at night. A grave is made of mudd and concrete.

D) A blanket falls off the body, and the journalist can capture how the victim has been cut open from the tummy up to his throat.

Now, the palestinians ACCUSE IDF of selling organs. I stress to note that there is no real proof in the article though.

The article does however ask some interesting questions, as in, why were the body kept for 5 days, and why was it cut open upon return to the village.

Official explanation is that an autopsy was made, the follow up question to that was: "what reason is there to make an autopsy when it is clear that he has been shot to death".

Article then links to a black market for organs, and among them showing how Rabbis in teh US just got caught selling organs on the black market, organs they had got from Gaza among other places.

I dont know... There are no real proof in the article, but it raises some very interesting, or rather disgusting questions.

I, for one, would prefer if the Israel government spent less time bashing sweden for being anti-semite, and more time investigating the accusations.

Beirut

08-23-2009, 16:57

1. How come Israel wants to censor the free press?

It's a very powerful tool of foregn policy to be able to control the media in other countries.

In some cases it's used to get your point across and in other cases to make sure the other guy doesn't get his point across.

Israel, by themselves and through their foregn lobbies, have become masters at media manipulation and intimidation.

Tribesman

08-23-2009, 19:16

Oh well ,now its Norway that is promoting anti-semitism.
Apparently they are doing some celebration for a long dead author who got an award for literature back in the 1920s.
But according to that fruitcake foriegn minister Israel has nowadays they are just doing it because they hate jews

Seamus Fermanagh

08-23-2009, 20:30

I appreciate your candor.

As to being anti-Israel, if the issue is taken to mean "anti-Israeli policy towards the Palestinians", then yes, virulently is the exact word to use.

Agreed, I didn't mean that you were opposed to any individual persons. You are clearly opposed to the manner/policies by which the state of Israel interacts with the Palestinian arabs and are also, I believe, skeptical of Israel's legitimacy as a state (though I don't believe you are so impractical as to think it should or will disappear).

Ironside

08-23-2009, 20:47

Can be worth noticing that Haaretz have noted why it's bad trying to link the holocaust and anti-semitism with Sweden (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109429.html).

And it is a notable political drive behind this There's no free press in Sweden (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418677847&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull).
That former ambassador also implies the equivalent of Fox news being approved by Obama, according to their political alignments.

What tribes is refering to (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109501.html), since I'm checking around on the Israeli newspapers anyway.

Any chance that we can get Lieberman to praise Folke Bernadotte and Yitzhak Shamir in the same sentance?

Kralizec

08-23-2009, 21:25

"The Swedish government hides under the cloak of free speech," he added, "but when the caricatures that depicted Prophet Mohammed were published, the Swedish foreign minister sent a letter of protest to the Danish president."

If true, this is hypocrisy.

Otherwise, I agree with pretty much everything that's been said ~:grouphug:

Beirut

08-23-2009, 22:24

Agreed, I didn't mean that you were opposed to any individual persons. You are clearly opposed to the manner/policies by which the state of Israel interacts with the Palestinian Arabs,

100% correct.

and I believe, skeptical of Israel's legitimacy as a state (though I don't believe you are so impractical as to think it should or will disappear).

Yes, I have always questioned the legitimacy of the Israeli state. I believe the creation of Israel was an armed robbery writ large.

No, I do not think Israel will disappear.

Kadagar_AV

08-24-2009, 02:51

Ironside,

Your first link, why it's bad trying to link the holocaust and anti-semitism with Sweden (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109429.html), is, well, right from a historians view.

However, SOME of us don't live in the past. Just this week I was having drinks with a a german and a israeli girl. The world has moved on, maybe israel should too?

I mean, the article speaks FOR Sweden, yet I find it blaha blaha... Why does it matter how many jews Sweden saved during WWII in todays modern society?

Your second article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418677847&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) made by Zvi Mazel is kind of laughable. He used the be Israels ambassador to Sweden, probably most known for trashing some art he deemed anti-semit.

That is right, an ambassador went to a art gallery and started thrashing art. Granted, he wasnt very well met afterwards and soon quit his post. :inquisitive:

He is also known for the quote where he claims swedish media has DAILY articles about how jews should be killed. :juggle2:

The guy is pretty much a joke, and a tool of the utter-right-wing.

EDIT: Press the clown for link :clown: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_White_and_The_Madness_of_Truth)

Third article is interesting but out of my leauge. I dont know anything about it and can only relate to Sweden.

Kadagar_AV

08-24-2009, 02:59

Yes, I have always questioned the legitimacy of the Israeli state. I believe the creation of Israel was an armed robbery writ large.

Agreed.

The creation of the Israeli state always reminds me of the basement scene from Pulp Fiction...

Ironside

08-24-2009, 10:45

If true, this is hypocrisy.

Otherwise, I agree with pretty much everything that's been said ~:grouphug:

Can't find anything about such a letter, but it's not impossible, although the focus would've been at poor handling on the situation, while still praising free press.

Can be worth noticing that she did resign over shutting down a webpage that posted those pictures, as it's illegal censorship.

Ironside,

Your first link, why it's bad trying to link the holocaust and anti-semitism with Sweden (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109429.html), is, well, right from a historians view.

However, SOME of us don't live in the past. Just this week I was having drinks with a a german and a israeli girl. The world has moved on, maybe israel should too?

I mean, the article speaks FOR Sweden, yet I find it blaha blaha... Why does it matter how many jews Sweden saved during WWII in todays modern society?

“Whoever Controls The Past Controls The Future. Who Controls The Present Controls The Past.” George Orwell

While I agree of not living in the past, it irks me greatly when someone tries to bend the past for thier own purpose and it's dangerous should they ever succeed. The holocaust is partly there, as it's overplayed, but it's not false.

Your second article (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418677847&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) made by Zvi Mazel is kind of laughable. He used the be Israels ambassador to Sweden, probably most known for trashing some art he deemed anti-semit.

That is right, an ambassador went to a art gallery and started thrashing art. Granted, he wasnt very well met afterwards and soon quit his post. :inquisitive:

He is also known for the quote where he claims swedish media has DAILY articles about how jews should be killed. :juggle2:

The guy is pretty much a joke, and a tool of the utter-right-wing.

I'm more curious why there's a move for it. Is it for home consumption or a sort of deflecting foreign criticism by having a case were they can be saying "look, look, it's because they're anti-semites". Didn't recall that incident until you reminded me though.

Fragony

08-24-2009, 11:08

Second article http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3765992,00.html

If all this is based on an account of the mother Sweden should be ashamed of itself. But on the other hand these New Jersey kidneys have to come from somewhere, dig him up and let's see.

aimlesswanderer

08-24-2009, 14:46

Gawd, this even made the SBS TV news this evening. It just said that the Israelis went crazy, nothing about the article except the organ harvesting allegations.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1076677/Organ-harvest-claims-enrage-Israel

Jews really need to get wise and see that crying wolf (bringing up the Holocaust) every time that anything bad is said about Israel/Jews is both silly and counter productive.

Why is there so little outrage over Japan's much more numerous atrocities (a disturbingly long list), which killed at least as many as the Holocaust, for which they haven't quite admitted? And many textbooks in Japan don't even mention them at all, and there are a worrying number of people who deny they happened. It puzzles me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

Fragony

08-24-2009, 14:55

Why is there so little outrage over Japan's much more numerous atrocities

I'm not Japanese

Seamus Fermanagh

08-24-2009, 20:39

I'm not Japanese

Nor are you an Israeli or Swede.

Fragony

08-24-2009, 22:38

Nor are you an Israeli or Swede.

More so than I am Japanese, I guess that's racist but that's how it is.

English assassin

08-26-2009, 13:43

Consensus = boring :beam:

I'll bite.

First, on the story itself, it is an absolutely extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. As regards the allegations against IDF, I agree with K AV

I stress to note that there is no real proof in the article

I am not a journalist but I question the wisdom of publishing such allegations without at least some proof. Even if the events all took place, is there any reason to suppose the scar on the body was not from an autopsy? Free speech has limits, in particular public safety 9if the story moves anyone to violence), the prevention of disorder or crime (likewise), and the protection of the reputation or the rights of others,

As to anti-semitism, well. I defer to no one (other than maybe Beruit) in my suspicions of the I so called D F. Beruit and I are more or less as one on the subject of the occupied territories (I beg to differ on pre 1967 Israel though, but then if there was an armed robbery involved I guess Britain was the look out guy). And yet, would these unsubstantiated allegations have been published against, say, the British army? I doubt it.

I agree dragging WW11 and the holocaust into it seems gratuitous, but still.

If I was REALLY cynical, I'd say this was a jolly handy story for the IDF, because all the while we are worrying about highly implausible stories about organ farming, we are not worrying about rather more plausible stories of killing and mistreatment of civilians, collective punishment of entire communities and so on.

Louis VI the Fat

08-26-2009, 14:17

Bah.

All you people in this thread are anti-Semites. :no:

Fragony

08-26-2009, 14:52

First, on the story itself, it is an absolutely extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. As regards the allegations against IDF, I agree with K AV

Ya, that guy better come through with something good. Shouldn't be very hard, no need to dig up any corpses, let's see if these kidney's they found in NJ can be traced to arab blood, shouldn't be too hard with DNA tests. This is a very serious accusation, would be a new low for humanity.

Seamus Fermanagh

08-26-2009, 15:07

Bah.

All you people in this thread are anti-Semites. :no:

Humor, I hope, cher Louis.:inquisitive: I am in this thread, albeit in a minor fashion, and I do not think such a label appropriate to describe me.

Fragony

08-26-2009, 16:27

Ok :juggle2:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251145107193&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Hey Jan Helin, I got a few words for you you irresponsible piece of :daisy:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3766430,00.html

"I was saddened to see extreme rightist populists using this article as vulgar propaganda."

You pathetic piece of %*&^(&*^(* how dare you. I got your face. All in all your just another hole in the wall.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/Satellite.jpg

"It's true that most of our reporters are social-democrats but we are far from being anti-Semites"

Sure linkschmensch sure, haven't changed even a tiny little bit haven't we still the scum of the earth.

Ironside

08-26-2009, 18:27

If I was REALLY cynical, I'd say this was a jolly handy story for the IDF, because all the while we are worrying about highly implausible stories about organ farming, we are not worrying about rather more plausible stories of killing and mistreatment of civilians, collective punishment of entire communities and so on.

You're not that "lucky", the author of the article has been going for this since 1992 from what I understand. Then again appearently simular reports have been in other western countries newspapers before without any diplomatic responce from Israel.

Ya, that guy better come through with something good. Shouldn't be very hard, no need to dig up any corpses, let's see if these kidney's they found in NJ can be traced to arab blood, shouldn't be too hard with DNA tests. This is a very serious accusation, would be a new low for humanity.

Hardly. If this have happened, it happened during a fairly short period in 1992 when it was a campaign for more organs in Israel+ lots of killed young palestinians (due to the intifada) whose bodies had big stiches on them and were buried quickly + rumours about organ havesting. The NJ connection is more that Israel has had a questionable organ market for years.

The articles are of low quality as they contain very little evidence (they are of the "to awaken questions" kind) and might actually be worthy an investigation of libel, due to it's grave content.

Where things go haywire is when the Israeli goverment demands a condemnation by the Swedish goverment and not the newpaper or the journalist in question. Which are an entirely different matter.

Louis VI the Fat

08-26-2009, 21:06

Humor, I hope, cher Louis.:inquisitive: I am in this thread, albeit in a minor fashion, and I do not think such a label appropriate to describe me.No, this thread is but one step away from calling for transportations to the camps and

No, duh, of course not. Gah! I am away for one week and people have forgotten about my miserable sense of humour. :shame:

Anyway...In Israel, if your mum cooks you a failed meal you acuse her of anti-Semitism. Half the debates in the Knesset end in one side calling the other a bunch of nazis. It is part of the culture.