Why are the Ptolemaioi such a hated faction? [Archive]

fleaza

08-24-2009, 06:30

Kevin

08-24-2009, 06:42

it means jewish i think.

no one likes the ptolemaioi because their founder was a snivelling ratbag who stole alexanders corpse and brought it to egypt.
they live in a desert.

they mate with their sisters.
they were historically weak after the first few rulers.
they have bad units.
they are not interesting.
the egyptians werent conquerors or warriors, they were farmers.
the constant yellow colour is sickening to the eyes.
they shouldve been the second diadoch to have been conquered dammit, i hate it how they outlasted all others.
their name is confusing to prnounce.

https://img7.imageshack.us/img7/205/daaaamn.jpg (https://img7.imageshack.us/i/daaaamn.jpg/)
:inquisitive:...a..a..alright then....:inquisitive:

kekailoa

08-24-2009, 06:48

it means jewish i think.

no one likes the ptolemaioi because their founder was a snivelling ratbag who stole alexanders corpse and brought it to egypt.
they live in a desert.

they mate with their sisters.
they were historically weak after the first few rulers.
they have bad units.
they are not interesting.
the egyptians werent conquerors or warriors, they were farmers.
the constant yellow colour is sickening to the eyes.
they shouldve been the second diadoch to have been conquered dammit, i hate it how they outlasted all others.
their name is confusing to prnounce.

Seriously, you gotta cut out the things like calling them (...). Not respectful at all, and plus some of the rest of what you said isn't respectful to those who like them or the modders who created the faction.

I like the Ptolemai, especially their Galatians.

mountaingoat

08-24-2009, 07:18

i lol'd

i never really encounter them , but the yellow death is annoying to see , even when you are playing as the casse.

Apázlinemjó

08-24-2009, 07:46

The players like the challenges and the Ptolies offer little about that. You start with a good position, good economy, good army, your only enemy is a collapsing AS in the first 50 years, so yeah, maybe that's why.

gamegeek2

08-24-2009, 08:05

It has more to do with the AI Ptollies.

Apázlinemjó

08-24-2009, 08:22

It has more to do with the AI Ptollies.

In most of my campaigns they don't become the Yellow Fever. They usually lose Anatolia to AS, Makedonia, Pontos or KH then they reach Seleukeia and Babylon and stop there. Eventually they end up battling the Carthagians, who are quite equal with them by there. So I don't really have experience with them as "the superpower".

Megas Methuselah

08-24-2009, 09:05

they mate with their sisters.

Hey, mane! We all have our turn-ons...

In most of my campaigns they don't become the Yellow Fever. They usually lose Anatolia to AS, Makedonia, Pontos or KH then they reach Seleukeia and Babylon and stop there.

Wow. You're a lucky kid. Have you seen any of the screenshots scattered across the EB Forums? Yellow death from Cyrene to India, from Nubia to the Crimean Peninsula.

Alsatia

08-24-2009, 09:09

Ptolemaioi are obliterating AS in my campaigns, not comforting when you have to conquer half of their lands for Victory Conditions.

I thought Rome was hated the most.

Ca Putt

08-24-2009, 09:09

as Player:
1. they are easy
1. b : theyonly have one "direct" enemy (the AS) and two far away possible enemies (Saba and Kart hadast) of which one is Saba ;)
2. They have almost the same roster as the AS(+ their Celtic friends)
2b. they lack the really cool units of the AS :(
3. they live in the desert(and are not a HA faction^^)
4.They are Yellow

as AI opponent
1. they often become a elite spamming superpower(tho they always loose to AS in my campaigns)
2. they live in the desert
3. They are Yellow

HunGeneral

08-24-2009, 09:23

no one likes the ptolemaioi because their founder was a snivelling ratbag who stole alexanders corpse and brought it to egypt.
Seconded - this is the reason I try to kill of the ptolies as soon as possible while playing as any Diadochi faction:skull:

they live in a desert.
I don't think thats the reason. They have all there centers around the nile so they have a nice economy (one worth taking).

they mate with their sisters.
they were historically weak after the first few rulers.
they have bad units.
Seconded, seconded and seconded:yes:

they are not interesting.
Well not as interresting as the others, but still noteworthy to conquer them.

the egyptians werent conquerors or warriors, they were farmers.
Most of the ruling Elite and the warriors the Ptolies fielded were primarly of Hellene, Galatian or foreign descent and considered foreigners to Egypt (no wonder the locals hated them so much).

the constant yellow colour is sickening to the eyes.
Especially is such a size they would become if you leave them unchecked:whip:

they shouldve been the second diadoch to have been conquered dammit, i hate it how they outlasted all others.
I think the Arche Seleukeia could have been a worthy heir to Alexander but besides them the Ptolies were closest to being "the strongest".... for a while.

their name is confusing to pronounce.
I think you can get used to it, but there is an easier solution - you quessed it: conquer Aigyptos:smash:

Seneca

08-24-2009, 09:30

I'm in 237 bc now on my KH save. the Ptolemaioi are doing their best to obliterate the AS and all things around it, and has spammed countless stacks of quality units to siege me at Rhodos.

I feed the AS and the sabyn with mnai to bring some balance, but the stupid AS just spam stacks of merc to take baktria while losing all of their western provinces.

I'm thinking about a punitive expedition to sack alexandria and memphis, and thereby damage their economy. Trusted ally my ass.

Andronikos

08-24-2009, 10:26

no one likes the ptolemaioi because their founder was a snivelling ratbag who stole alexanders corpse and brought it to egypt.
I prefer Antigonids, but first 3 Ptolemies are another of my favourite Successors, they were good and strong kings.

they live in a desert
I like deserts and desert people, but I don't consider Ptolemies desert people, Saba and Numidians are.

the egyptians werent conquerors or warriors, they were farmers
yes, but your warrior class are Greeks, Makedonians and Galatians, so you can have Egyptians farming and making money for your expansions with these three nations in armies

They are Yellow
What's wrong with yellow color???

Actually, in the beginnig Egypt was the most stable successor kingdom, Egyptians hated Persians, so they adored Alexander who freed them and they accepted Makedonian rule, yes they were farmers and so they were happy when they didn't have to be in army and their rulers were tolerant to their culture and religion. Unlike Seleucid empire, where Persians who were defeated and conquered by Alexandros didn't accept Makedonian rule. Revolts in Egypt started as a consequence to later weak kings. So in 272 BC they are on a good starting position to become great empire if a wise and strong king (the player) controls them.

Apázlinemjó

08-24-2009, 10:49

Wow. You're a lucky kid. Have you seen any of the screenshots scattered across the EB Forums? Yellow death from Cyrene to India, from Nubia to the Crimean Peninsula.

Yeah maybe, in my two top priority campaigns they are forced to retreat settlement by settlement.

In the Makedonia one, they are losing ground against Karthadast and KH, while they are also at war with Saba and AS:

https://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt196/Adamka/0008-1.jpg

In the Luso one, they started the campaign good, took Assyria and such, but it turned sad around 250 BC. They lost Anatolia to AS and currently losing their ground on the Levant. They are at war with a strong Saba. Though their war with the Karthadast ended with peace, because I invaded Morocco and Algeria.

https://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt196/Adamka/0009.jpg

The General

08-24-2009, 11:20

I find them actually pretty fun especially since they are the only faction that actually makes money in the beginning. They're like easier than playing as the Romani :egypt:
Plus, their elite phalanxes look pretty cool

It's not so much playing as them that people hate, but the playing against them, due to their tendency to conquer Syria and become an elite-stack spamming powerhouse.

it means jewish i think.

no one likes the ptolemaioi because their founder was a snivelling ratbag who stole alexanders corpse and brought it to egypt.
they live in a desert.
they mate with their sisters.
they were historically weak after the first few rulers.
they have bad units.
they are not interesting.
the egyptians werent conquerors or warriors, they were farmers.
the constant yellow colour is sickening to the eyes.
they shouldve been the second diadoch to have been conquered dammit, i hate it how they outlasted all others.
their name is confusing to prnounce.
Ptolemy just happened to be the one of the diadochi who was succesful, I'd think everyone wanted to claim Alexander's body as a justification of their reign and/or right to become the master of the hellenistic world.

They do not live in a desert, they live surrounded by a desert (the Nile valley is, after all, one of the most fertile patches of land on Earth).

Can't say I agree with their decision, but it was a part of their attempt to appear as Pharaohs of old to appease the native Egyptians. Think we all know how well that worked out...

All the Diadochi states waned in power after their initial rulers, usually due to a combination of constant warfare between themselves, increasing external pressure and internal instability.

They do not have bad units; they don't have as strong units as the other Diadochi do - however, they're not "bad" (Klerouchon Agema, Galatikoi Kleruchoi, Hetairoi, etc.).

They are not interesting to you. Personally I find them quite an interesting bunch of inbreds (think Habsburgs).

The Egyptians were primarily farmers, yes, and Ptolemaic warriors are primarily Makedonian, Greek and Galatian. However, even the ancient Egyptians conquered lands from Sudan to Iraq and Libya.

It's a tough world, sometimes the snake outlasts the lion.

Ptolemy is pronounced 'tɒləmi.

:egypt:

(I'm not even a fan of the Ptolemies, for the sake of record)

fleaza

08-24-2009, 12:13

Seriously, you gotta cut out the things like calling them gay. Not respectful at all, and plus some of the rest of what you said isn't respectful to those who like them or the modders who created the faction.

I like the Ptolemai, especially their Galatians.

well its my opinion. im sure they wont actually mind. if they went around digging their nose into everyone who didnt respect them theyd get nothing done.

i find playing against them the most rewarding aspects to RTW. in every campaign near the mediterannian sea i ship my units over there to sack alexandria and memphis. to cripple them. conquering egypt is the most rewarding aspect to the game as well because its such a population booster. every 20 turns you conquer alexandria/memphis and enslave it. gives you around 20000 extra population which rocks. you can do the same to carthage but carthage isnt such a destructive blitzer as the ptolemies so you dont need to keep them in check.

btw the gay names thing was a joke.

oh and they have bad temples. none of their gods appeal to me. makedons have herakles and zeus. seleukids have seleukos himself! ptolemies have...serapis.

i admit that ptolemy himself was a brilliant successor. except for the fact that seleukos ruled the gretest amount of land, ptolemy was the most succesful diadoch.

Mister V

08-24-2009, 12:15

I don't really hate them either. I don't find them too interesting to play, but they're always fun to crush (and I've never had to deal with the Yellow Death either). I also like yellow (not their sand yellow, more like Golden Yellow, but still).

Another irrational dislike fed by favourable circumstances for the AI.

A_Dane

08-24-2009, 14:38

i hate them and the seleucids equally much, coz in my camapaings they never fight, and instead go after me -.- (pontus or armenia mostly) even when they could gain a hell alot more and easier from the other part. never actually seen them expand that much, even when i'm not nearby..

abou

08-24-2009, 14:48

well its my opinion. im sure they wont actually mind. if they went around digging their nose into everyone who didnt respect them theyd get nothing done.Well, no, we wouldn't get much done. That doesn't mean we're cool with people calling things "gay". Please refrain from it on this board.

Raygereio

08-24-2009, 15:19

Well, let's see what my English dictionary has to say about the matter:
Gay:
1. having or showing a merry, lively mood: gay spirits; gay music.
2. bright or showy: gay colors; gay ornaments.

Surely, both definitions can apply to the Ptolemaioi?
I certainly would be in a merry and lively mood if I kicked the Arche Seleukia around like it's nobody's business and have more money then I know what to do with.
And those yellow colours of theirs, if that's not bright and showy I don't know what is...

(Sorry, I just can't resist dumb jokes like that:smiley2:)

Anyway:
In my experience, as long as the Arche's eastern front is stable enough so that they don't have to send a lot of resource that way; they can do a good job of halting the Ptolemaioi's advance to the north. Certainly long enough for the Saba and Carthaginians to start harassing them from the east and west, effectivly stopping the Ptolemaioi and force them on the defensive.

Only problem is that on campaign difficulties of hard or very-hard the Ptolemaioi's main target - Arche Seleukia -tends to switch to 'Rahr! Player! Smash!'-mode and starts to mindlessly attack you if you're a neighbouring faction, allowing the Ptolemaioi to strike in the Arche's soft underbelly early in the game, which is is not something the AI can deal with.

Usually though, I am able to use force-diplomacy to keep the Arche's east stable and keep them focussed on their west long enough (roughly 10-20 years) to allow the Arche's AI to build up a decent infrastructure, at which point they don't need help anymore and can actually defend themselves against the dreaded yellow fever.

Honestly though, if your criteria for hating a faction is that the AI will form a superpower 9 out 10 times, then why not hate the Sweboz of the Lusotanna too?

Tyrfingr

08-24-2009, 16:04

Because the most guys who are familiar with RTW's "The Mummy's return"-egyptians hates, by default, any faction used to represent Egypt during the timespan of 272BC and 0AD.

keiskander

08-24-2009, 16:27

I think the Ptolemaioi are real fun to play with and a nice addition of units. I see it hard to hate a faction in any way perhaps dislike playing with some factions since people have diffrent styles. Perhaps a harsh word but if anyone seriously hate a faction in a computer game perhaps a break from the game is needed.

Gabeed

08-24-2009, 16:50

Atraphoenix

08-24-2009, 17:29

Who hates them?
I love them watching they kick ass of AS while I kick AS from east.
I love them sending me lots of elite full stacks so as to make my game interesting after I send AS to the ashes of history,
I love them so much when I am playing on the western part of the map whose right sight shining like gold so use sunglasses :cool4:

I love them cursing a spell on my army that was paralyzed in the tile of death booooohhh :laugh4:
I love them so much if I need money they have lots of treasures so I can sack egypt whenever I need money they rebuild it easily :yes:

- --- - -- - -

who says their units sucks, you need see an optician:dizzy2:.
BTW Ptolemaoi was not for play just to save player going bankrupt thanks to huge gains of sacking campaigns.

gamegeek2

08-24-2009, 18:41

Honestly though, if your criteria for hating a faction is that the AI will form a superpower 9 out 10 times, then why not hate the Sweboz of the Lusotanna too?

The Sweboz' infamous southern expansion was effectively nerfed by the scripted defenders. The Lusotana take a while to seize Hispania. The Ptollies seize control of most of the AS plus Aigyptos. Which seems the strongest?

Ludens

08-24-2009, 19:18

I've just removed most of the gay references. Please drop the subject and go back to discussing the vices of the Ptolemeans.

come to think of it why don't we just modify the script to give the AS a special 'anti yellow-plague' financial boost?

Unfortunately, that way you end up with the Grey death. The two should be closely matched, but balancing them is hard since you need to play dozens of campaigns to see if one consistently beats the other.

Yes or other option will be a kingdom of Judia? No?

Which will be quickly swallowed by either. Not to mention that it is extremely ahistorical, as Judea was at this point firmly under Ptolemean control, and even when independent wasn't remotely capable of expansionist action.

Iudaios? What's that?

Judea, one of the tribes of Israel.

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

08-24-2009, 19:42

Just to be fair: pre EB 1.0, the Yellow Death played no role at all, everybody was afraid of the Grey Death instead. :smash: :skull:

And I must add that EB 1.2 is the best balanced EB of all times. :2thumbsup: Sweboz east expansion, Roman north expansion, Karthadast sand wars, KH eating up father Makedonia, Baktria overrunning the steppe - all this has been successfully adressed. What remains is just the Yellow / Grey balance and Hayasdans conquering the Sarmatians.

Apázlinemjó

08-24-2009, 19:52

Marcus Ulpius

08-24-2009, 20:24

No reason to hate Ptolemaoi now. In 1.2 the AS usually beats them and destroys everything in Asia except may be some Saka or Bactria cities on the far east.

P.S. As was rightly mentioned, Hayasdan are always chasing ghosts in the steppes instead of making things more interesting for the AS and friends.

GenosseGeneral

08-24-2009, 21:09

i like them and play them. i mean which successor has not elite (son not that expensive) heavy sword infantry???
only annoying thing are their "special" units such as machimoi or the klerouchon agema who have a small AoR.

BTW: why cant i recruit hetairoi in antiocheia?
EDIT:according to recruitment viewer i should be able to

EDIT2: thx, i now found out that i just had luck and conquered seleukeia with an lvl5MIC, so thats why i can recruit those guys there.

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

08-24-2009, 21:26

i like them and play them. i mean which successor has not elite (son not that expensive) heavy sword infantry???
only annoying thing are their "special" units such as machimoi or the klerouchon agema who have a small AoR.

BTW: why cant i recruit hetairoi in antiocheia?
EDIT:according to recruitment viewer i should be able to
Hetairoi need a lvl5 factional MIC, but you can only build it with a lvl1 gov.

kekailoa

08-24-2009, 21:52

well its my opinion. im sure they wont actually mind. if they went around digging their nose into everyone who didnt respect them theyd get nothing done.

i find playing against them the most rewarding aspects to RTW. in every campaign near the mediterannian sea i ship my units over there to sack alexandria and memphis. to cripple them. conquering egypt is the most rewarding aspect to the game as well because its such a population booster. every 20 turns you conquer alexandria/memphis and enslave it. gives you around 20000 extra population which rocks. you can do the same to carthage but carthage isnt such a destructive blitzer as the ptolemies so you dont need to keep them in check.

btw the gay names thing was a joke.

oh and they have bad temples. none of their gods appeal to me. makedons have herakles and zeus. seleukids have seleukos himself! ptolemies have...serapis.

i admit that ptolemy himself was a brilliant successor. except for the fact that seleukos ruled the gretest amount of land, ptolemy was the most succesful diadoch.

I agree that they're seriously irritating a lot of the time, especially after they take all of Asia Minor and begin to expand into Europe. When you're playing the Getai, it's not a fun thing to face endless stacks of elite phalanxes with archers galore....

To a certain point, they aren't as exciting as other factions, but still, they're fun with the directions they can take and the limitless power one can really wield.

Moros

08-24-2009, 23:02

I like deserts and desert people, but I don't consider Ptolemies desert people, Saba and Numidians are.

Sabaeans were most definately not desert people.

Hax

08-24-2009, 23:46

Ptolemaios I Soter was one of the best friends of Alexandros. There were a few people who deserved his empire after he died; I count Ptolemaios as being one of them.

Mikhail Mengsk

08-25-2009, 13:15

I don't like them because of their annoying colour and their potential big expansion. I also hate them because i remember the vanilla RTW's pharaoh's ridicolous units. And their uberoverpowered superarchers <.<

Also, i don't like ancient egyptians for no reason U_U

satalexton

08-25-2009, 13:24

for some reason, I still remember those archers killing every single i threw at them on the walls.......

....in fact, thats the only thing i remember about vanilla, other than the ninjas of barbaropolis....

Cute Wolf

08-25-2009, 13:54

Well, it looks like most are complaining about AS -ptolemaic wars......... maybe we should script AS - Ptolies defenders on gaza area (Script if both are AI controlled, each get reinforcements when another are the city holder) so they become stalled.

Atraphoenix

08-25-2009, 14:21

Andronikos

08-25-2009, 14:45

their founder was a snivelling ratbag who stole alexanders corpse and brought it to egypt.

I have read that some historians claim, that Alexander wanted to be buried in Amonion in Siwa and it was Olympias who ordered his body to be transported to Makedonia.

Mr Polska

08-25-2009, 16:59

Then Ptolemy had it nicked and buried it in Alexandria.

IrishHitman

08-25-2009, 20:09

Yes or other option will be a kingdom of Judia? No?

No.
Said kingdom is a road for bigger powers to travel through, in terms of significance for the period, it isn't justified...

I'll hear no arguments otherwise, as they are undoubtedly based in modern concerns...

Olaf The Great

08-25-2009, 20:41

I think it's because they would be the best possible ally in a campaign against IF diplomacy was better in RTW.

I really never play them because they are too easy.

Marcus Ulpius

08-25-2009, 22:16

The better balancing idea for the Ptolies would be raising the unrest levels everywhere in Egypt except the Delta region so that they would have to use more troops garrisoning, or restricting their recruitment refresh rate for elite Hellenistic units (I don't think it's possible in RTW), after all they could not field huge armies full of heavy Galatians and agema phalanxes, but that's to some extent true for any other Diadochi kingdom.

Kingdom of Judea is not an option, they were totally irrelevant on the political arena at that time, had no expansionist ambitions and were nothing more than a playground for big boys to play - first Egypt and Persia (or even Babylonia earlier), then Ptolies and the AS.

The General

08-25-2009, 23:17

The better balancing idea for the Ptolies would be raising the unrest levels everywhere in Egypt except the Delta region so that they would have to use more troops garrisoning
Considering that (iirc!) the Qarthadastim get increased unrest levels in Iberia, this could, and in my opinion, should be implemented to some degree.

or restricting their recruitment refresh rate for elite Hellenistic units (I don't think it's possible in RTW)
Not possible with the R:TW engine, but...

after all they could not field huge armies full of heavy Galatians and agema phalanxes, but that's to some extent true for any other Diadochi kingdom.
... will be possible with the M2:TW engine, and will be a feature of EBII (for every faction).

Kingdom of Judea is not an option, they were totally irrelevant on the political arena at that time, had no expansionist ambitions and were nothing more than a playground for big boys to play - first Egypt and Persia (or even Babylonia earlier), then Ptolies and the AS.
I agree, the Judeans were not in a position to form a strong nation with expansionist goals - so, when Judea rebels, it should just rebel, imho, not form a one province nation only to be gobbled up by the larger powers the next turn (all the while using one of those very, very precious faction slots).

bobbin

08-26-2009, 16:24

I think the Ptolemaioi have a excellent unit roster it's just very limited map wise so you have to ship units everywhere which gets to be a pain.

As for why they're so hated its definitely their AI behavior, nobody likes fighting those horrificly powerful empires they tend to produce. The AS used to be just as hated for the same reason in older EB versions.

Blxz

08-26-2009, 17:21

I love the Ptolemies. They're easy to play because Ptolemy Soter was a freakin' genius. People who think they or their units are boring can go back to Vanilla. All I can think of when someone calls the Ptolemies boring is a frat boy shouting, "BUT THEY DON'T HAVE PHAROAH'S BOWMEN ANYMORE, BRO. I MIGHT AS WELL BE THE GREEKS IF THE EGYPT ISN'T GONNA HAVE GOOD UNITS." In conclusion, incest is awesome. :laugh4:

Gabeed, I distinctly remember you annihilating my roman army online with your evil, inbred killer army. Its 2am here, 7 months later and I am still too scared of having nightmares about your win for me to go to sleep.

I vaguely remember reading somewhere, maybe in EB text, that it is rumoured that Ptolemy Soter could have been an illegitimate older brother of Alexandros. An sources anyone can quote that can confirm what my coke addled brain is thinking?

Ludens

08-26-2009, 20:08

I vaguely remember reading somewhere, maybe in EB text, that it is rumoured that Ptolemy Soter could have been an illegitimate older brother of Alexandros. An sources anyone can quote that can confirm what my coke addled brain is thinking?

It came up in the "Was Alexander poisoned?" thread, and I recall reading about it in some old historical fiction, so it's definitely an existing theory.

Subotan

08-27-2009, 20:57

Personally I find them quite an interesting bunch of inbreds (think Habsburgs).

Yessssssssss.

Oh, and anyone who says that the Ptolemaioi suck, clearly underestimate how difficult it is to seize Egypt and Syria in what amounts to be a millitary coup. Also, considering they are responsible for allegedly one of the most beautiful women in history (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Cleopatra1917.jpg), I wouldn't say that's bad going. :yes:

Mallios

08-27-2009, 21:55

Megas Methuselah

08-27-2009, 22:11

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

08-27-2009, 23:20

Kleopatra was very beautiful, as this ancient painting proves. Also you can see here that inbreeding already started to spread within the Galatian Klerouchoi, severly hempering Egypt's ability to withstand the Roman threat:

https://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1609/asterixundcleopatracove.jpg (https://img37.imageshack.us/i/asterixundcleopatracove.jpg/)

Mallios

08-27-2009, 23:25

Subotan

08-28-2009, 07:46

Subotan, I recommend you take a look at coins from the time before you say she is one of the most beautiful women in history, from the coins we can see she was actually quite ugly by modern standards.

It's just that the Romans liked that sort of thing... *shudders*
Modern standards? I'm glad to know that I can rely on modern society to help me with who I find attractive, rather than personal judgement. :laugh4:
Besides, don't all the sources say that it was her charm that was beautiful, rather than her appearance?

Kleopatra was very beautiful, as this ancient painting proves. Also you can see here that inbreeding already started to spread within the Galatian Klerouchoi, severly hempering Egypt's ability to withstand the Roman threat:

https://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1609/asterixundcleopatracove.jpg (https://img37.imageshack.us/i/asterixundcleopatracove.jpg/)
Well, there was only one indomitable village free from Roman control. What do you expect?

fleaza

08-28-2009, 11:43

judging a persons looks on a cartoon that is extremely inaccurate historically isnt very smart imo.

and saying ptolemy deserved alexanders kingdom...if alexander was assassinated it was almost certainly ptolemy who had a part in it. he was head of security you see.

i like to conquer alexandria not start with it. also, i dont like the starting positions. israel is so vulnerable at the begining and asia minor is even more so.

satalexton

08-28-2009, 11:46

i usually abandon those positions and consolidate north africa....then it's a matter of throwing out keltoi, thorakitai and phalanx until the kardonechoi comes knocking.....

Blxz

08-28-2009, 11:51

Also, considering they are responsible for allegedly one of the most beautiful women in history (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Cleopatra1917.jpg)

I love sexy inbred people. I only watch the movie deliverance for the duelling banjo's and that sweet sexy inbred kid. (who sadly I might add is not inbred and actually looks that way natuarally. AND can't play the banjo, someone else is doing the old reach-around).

"Squeal like a piggy boy"
"Wheeeeeeee"

Ahh, I get off to this stuff.:wall:

EDIT: god damn it. I had this big nicely edited extra stuff that was very informative and interesting, then my browser froze. I redid it with a piece about how my current ptolemy campaign is going, then browser froze. instead now, you guys can just live with my inane crap about piggies and banjo's.

ARCHIPPOS

08-28-2009, 17:40

Supposedly Ptolemaic Egypt was THE sweetest diadoch kingdom to rule though...
Cohesive,wealthy and with secured borders from three sides ... not only that but the Ptolemaic rule was highly bureaucratical and well organised...

Fluvius Camillus

08-28-2009, 18:06

I don't hate the Ptolemaioi, I hate no faction.:beam:

And I hear people about hating them because they become too strong. Well people, that is the reason I am such a blitzer in most peoples eyes. A lot of people keep telling me that blitz ruins EB, well I dont know what you prefer, fighting most factions of the game because AI has not expanded so much yet. Or streams of fullstacks from the same faction over and over again....

~Fluvius

The General

08-28-2009, 22:44

I don't hate the Ptolemaioi, I hate no faction.:beam:

I don't hate, or even dislike any other faction except for Arche Seleukeia on steroids.

Few things are as rewarding as a game you've been playing for two-three days ruined by an attack by a maniacal Arche Seleukeia that is kicking the doodoo out of everyone (Ptolemaioi, Pahlava, Saka Rauka, Eleutheroi border provinces) and which insists on adding your name to its list of soon-to-be-vanquished foes. :skull:

Getting attacked by Ptolemies is something you can anticipate and usually, deal with. Unless you're playing as Hayasdan, it's quite likely you're going to meet them only on one relatively narrow front (the Qarthadastim in Africa, Baktria/Pahlava in Assyria/Mesopotamia, European factions in southern Anatolia) and you can just keep pushing. Trying to defeat Arche Seleukeia... :dizzy2:

If only there was something close to the system in EUs, and the occasional period of peace. :wall: I admit I do not have the endurance to fight against an endless stream of stacks all the way to friggin' India like in the case of my recently-abandoned Makedonia game.

Ibrahim

08-28-2009, 23:51

Honestly, I don't know why anyone would hate to fight the ptolemioi-what is more awesome than an underdog, but wisly led, faction vs an elite spamming empire? it has a Star Wars quality to it. I had a boat load of fun fighting them as saba; I haven't had a more challenging, dangerous, and brutal fight in the various TW engines, save my lakhmid campaigns against the sassanid traitors in IJ.*

*ok, so I tend to play arabian ones first-y'got a problem? and yes, the sassanids usually start the trouble :inquisitive::clown:

Blxz

08-29-2009, 18:19

Whats IJ? I am on the look out for new mods. Any good?

Ibrahim

08-29-2009, 21:41

Whats IJ? I am on the look out for new mods. Any good?

Imperium julianorum: its a submod of IBFD. you can find it at the twcenter under INVASIO BARBARORVM: SOMNIVM APOSTATAE IVLIANI. the latest version is IJ3 (still a beta though). and yes, its very, very good-I helped research one of the factions myself (take a guess). its no EB, but it sure as heck comes close.

anyways, on topic: I still don't see ar eal reson why the ptolemioi are to be hated as an IA faction; they are indeed a worthy challenge/adversary.

and darn, this drew brees guy is driving me up the wall-what the heck is with him?:inquisitive:

Subotan

08-30-2009, 11:51

judging a persons looks on a cartoon that is extremely inaccurate historically isnt very smart imo.
...And judging an entire dynasty by how they act (Mostly ahistorically I may add) in a computer game is even less smart.

and saying ptolemy deserved alexanders kingdom...if alexander was assassinated it was almost certainly ptolemy who had a part in it. he was head of security you see.
I didn't say that. I said that the fact that they were able to acquire and hold onto that amount of land for such a long time deserves respect and admiration.

i like to conquer alexandria not start with it. also, i dont like the starting positions. israel is so vulnerable at the begining and asia minor is even more so.
...Which makes them a challenge, and is essentially why a lot of people love to play as them.

EDIT: god damn it. I had this big nicely edited extra stuff that was very informative and interesting, then my browser froze. I redid it with a piece about how my current ptolemy campaign is going, then browser froze. instead now, you guys can just live with my inane crap about piggies and banjo's.
Way ahead of you. I spent an hour writing a post on some other forum, but my computer crashed when I was writing the second to last sentence. :furious3:

Blxz

08-30-2009, 14:14

Tall poppy syndrome.

The ptolmies have a good chance of being strong and powerful. People like the underdog and hate people, countries or abstract ideas that become too strong or dominant.

Same reason I like the Hai, people hate Rome and america is the most disliked country globally.
Its not that I appreciate the impossible to pronounce names of units, that Rome is evil and that america is populated by generally annoying people who get worse when they are in groups of 2 or more. Its all about that little urge in us to hope that the underdog David will triumph over the giant goliath.

Tall poppy syndrome people. Thats what it equates to in the end.

Subotan

08-30-2009, 16:20

Tall poppy syndrome people. Thats what it equates to in the end.

I can understand people's dislike of the Yellow Fever, as it is a phenomenon prominent in many strategy games, but when that dislike is carried over into reality, and besmirches and insults the reputations and achievements of real people, it has in my opinion gone too far.

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

08-30-2009, 19:43

How can anybody really think that somebody was judged by the cartoon I posted? :dizzy2:

Subotan

08-30-2009, 20:40

How can anybody really think that somebody was judged by the cartoon I posted? :dizzy2:

I was going to mention that, but I thought it so obvious as not to bother :laugh4:

Kevin

09-01-2009, 08:28

Why are we talking about Cleopatra? :inquisitive:

Duguntz

09-01-2009, 15:51

Why? simple : they use pikes and sarrissa, because they wear clothes and armours!... nothing equals sweboz's clubs and axes when they run to the battle with THEIR sarrissas in the fresh air! hahahahaha

Behold the return of the Swebozez!

cheers to all of you guys! I shall bring my worgozez back on the battlefield in october!

Duguntz

09-01-2009, 17:17

oh, and another reason... That can apply to Sabba as well : The earth is made of 80 percent of water. They choose to live in the desert... O_0

-No more comment needed...-

P.s. As some people on the forum tend to get offended pretty fast, I feel the obligation to remind that this comment is intended to be a joke and give some smile and thus is not to be considered as a factor to start another debat with somebody who could be over proud of his favourite faction : Ptolemaioi

If somebody is offended and gives any reason to proove me that the Ptolemaioi are the worthiest nation, everything I answer him should and will be considered as IRONIC. (^_^)

(Hey, I could almost become lawyer with more warning like that! hahahahahahaha!)

Cheers to all!

Moros

09-01-2009, 18:20

oh, and another reason... That can apply to Sabba as well : The earth is made of 80 percent of water. They choose to live in the desert... O_0
The Saba' didn't live in the desert. And they had more than enough water thanks to a great dam they built themselves.:egypt:

Duguntz

09-01-2009, 19:37

Ha, on this one I confess, i do not know the geographic situation of the region the sabba lived in and i spoke out of what I believed! I thus give my umble apologize... for the Sabba, the ptolemaioi aren't included in those excuses!

cheers!

Andronikos

09-01-2009, 20:39

The Saba' didn't live in the desert. And they had more than enough water thanks to a great dam they built themselves.:egypt:

Thanks, I wanted to ask about it. (But even more info wouldn't do harm.)

And just for clarification Egyptians didn't live in desert, they lived near Nile which was one of the most fertile regions in that time. Neither did Makedonians and Greeks who lived mostly in the Alexandria region near Mediterranean Sea and their presence made Egypt a true Mediterranean nation.

And finally I like deserts. And desserts too.

Moros

09-01-2009, 22:20

Thanks, I wanted to ask about it. (But even more info wouldn't do harm.)

Well most of Yemen is a monsoon affected area, so one could hardly call it a desert. Especially in the days of ancient Arabia when the desert had not spread that much yet. It's spread had already started though. However this is not compelety true for the more northern parts, where Maryab used to be. But due to the ancient climate it was far from a desert. And great constructions, dams, irrigation systems,... helped at keeping it that way.

Same is also true for the Sahara IIRC, which was much less sandy and smaller in ancient times. The spreading of desert or desertification is btw something that is happening at scary rates these days as well. Ghana being an example.

Also imo, I think it's wrong to call egyptians desert people as well, as their life was focused on and around the nile. The true desert people would have been mostly nomads, as that is the only way of life on the steppes or in the desert. Berbers, and many other libyans could truely be called desert people. This was of course true for the scenitae/bedouins living in Arabia. Most famous desert tribes/people form EB's time would be the Qedar and the Nabataeans. The latter migrated north and settled in modern day Jordan, though because of the climate. And of course the Minaeans, a people famous for their trade caravans going from all the way south of Arabia to Egypt and Syria and back. Which they had been doing at least half a millenium before our game starts.

Now you got me rambling. Either way in EBII the deserts in Arabia will have some unique buildings and other things to represent the real desert people and their lives, influences,... For example the incense routes will be represented this time. But I'm not going to spill any more beans, I've been telling way to much lately. I'm getting soft. I guess it's the lack of an occultus sig or something. Gah!

Dewirix

09-02-2009, 13:55

Maybe the way to counter the Ptolies swallowing the AS or vice versa is to give them different barracks. As things stand, either side can start pumping out high-tier troops as soon as they take a city off the other.

Perhaps the Ptolies could share the Baktria/Macedonia line of barracks.

That said, it's not so much the elites that worry me so much as the endless phalanx spam. Given the width of a unit, 10 or more in a single stack make a pretty tricky proposition as they're tough to outflank.

That's why in my Epeiros campaign I'm bridge-hogging outside Tarsos, I'm fed up of being on the downslope even in defensive battles.

antisocialmunky

09-02-2009, 14:00

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/EgyptianPtolemies2.jpg

:)

Blxz

09-02-2009, 14:36

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/EgyptianPtolemies2.jpg

:)

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought Caesar's child with Cleopatra the Slut was named Caesarion not Ptolemy XV.

Subotan

09-02-2009, 14:37

Wow, maybe they should have been Pharaohs of Kentucky.

Raygereio

09-02-2009, 14:54

Wel, at least their family tree is one of the clearest ones I've ever seen.
And don't you just hate when you have to scroll horizontally? No such thing necessary here.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought Caesar's child with Cleopatra the Slut was named Caesarion not Ptolemy XV.
My encyclopedia says: Ptolemy XV Caesar.
Full name Ptolemy Philopator Philometor Caesar.
Nicknamed: Caesarion.

Andronikos

09-02-2009, 15:08

family tree

OMG It's really wild with children of Ptolemy V and VIII. That's perhaps the only thing I dislike about Ptolemies. And traits of later kings.

Fluvius Camillus

09-02-2009, 16:06

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/EgyptianPtolemies2.jpg

:)

So the famed Cleopatra did both her brothers too? Yuck, I'm getting images of the little brat seen in HBO Rome.:wall:

Also the part around Cleopatra Selene and descendants is a bit nasty:dizzy2:

A miracle that Cleopatra (the most known one), turned out to be such a beautiful woman as told. Were there a lot of cases about deformed or slightly handicapped Ptolemies known?

Thanks for sharing the picture!

~Fluvius

Arutima

09-02-2009, 18:50

this is why i hate the ptolemaios

https://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1913/ptolemiesmadnessnt0.jpg

in that game they conquered carthages with a single army of 10, 3 gold chevrons FM

Moosemanmoo

09-02-2009, 20:49

Whoa!
I couldn't cope with that, how the hell are the Saba doing just fine?

Moros

09-02-2009, 21:15

Whoa!
I couldn't cope with that, how the hell are the Saba doing just fine?

:idea2: Protectorates?

antisocialmunky

09-03-2009, 02:23

The Germans expanded... wow.

DaciaJC

09-03-2009, 03:00

I was about to say, "Hmm, I'm liking Hayasdan's expansion", before I realized that those blue spots were the Black and Caspian Seas. *sigh* Not very smart to think after a soccer game. :dizzy2:

Kevin

09-03-2009, 03:45

this is why i hate the ptolemaios

https://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1913/ptolemiesmadnessnt0.jpg

in that game they conquered carthages with a single army of 10, 3 gold chevrons FM

again...
https://img7.imageshack.us/img7/205/daaaamn.jpg (https://img7.imageshack.us/i/daaaamn.jpg/)
:inquisitive::inquisitive::inquisitive:

Subotan

09-03-2009, 09:14

Poor Getai :(

Duguntz

09-03-2009, 14:32

The Germans expanded... wow.

Sweboz own!!! Oh yeah, and ptolies can just tramble in sight of such warriors! mouhahahahahaha!!!

Behold the riturn of Duguntz on the battlefield... in october!

From a scientific point of view, incsetial children (between bro's ans sister, as shown in that falily tree... wich really deserve it's name as... FAMILY tree!!!) start to show physic defect after only 10 or more generations... that's mean that when the first of that great line decided that his sister was cute enough to sleep with, it COULD take up to even 15 generation before we could actually physicly see it by defects on body AND mental... The problem of it... is that even if the grand grand grand grand grand pa' slept with a family member, and was the only one, the cromosome defect could strike like 100 years later, even if the rest took wife (or husband) in the good order, that is, with someone NOT from the family. so even a ''normal'' children could be deformated because his grand grand grand father slept with somebody he souldn't have!Hmmm... complicated even for me... still, it's only a matter of cells and chromosomes...

still, even if it takes, in general, couples of generations before deformations can be seens, don't sleep with your sister... it's awkward!

Cheers everybody!

athanaric

09-03-2009, 18:19

Sweboz own!!! Oh yeah, and ptolies can just tramble in sight of such warriors! mouhahahahahaha!!!

Behold the riturn of Duguntz on the battlefield... in october!

I think you are going to enjoy the AI faction progression report I will be uploading soon... Ptolies getting owned by Swêboz (that is, me)...

Duguntz

09-03-2009, 18:50

I think you are going to enjoy the AI faction progression report I will be uploading soon... Ptolies getting owned by Swêboz (that is, me)...

I'll wait with impacience that upload! i'm glad to finally find another Sweboz player on that forum and i wish you to kick those ptolies asses! :whip:

Let's come :yes:back to topic now!!!

Prussian to the Iron

09-03-2009, 18:53

well, i've never had any hatred for the ptolies, in fact i like them better than the AS (but then again, I am playing as Saba)

I think it's fairly easy to stop the 'Yellow fever' if you can take all of arabia, and then cut off the choke point around syria and israel. I'd prefer to side with the Ptolies, and maybe give them something in india, but not much more than that for help.

Blxz

09-04-2009, 14:32

From a scientific point of view, incsetial children (between bro's ans sister, as shown in that falily tree... wich really deserve it's name as... FAMILY tree!!!) start to show physic defect after only 10 or more generations... that's mean that when the first of that great line decided that his sister was cute enough to sleep with, it COULD take up to even 15 generation before we could actually physicly see it by defects on body AND mental... The problem of it... is that even if the grand grand grand grand grand pa' slept with a family member, and was the only one, the cromosome defect could strike like 100 years later, even if the rest took wife (or husband) in the good order, that is, with someone NOT from the family. so even a ''normal'' children could be deformated because his grand grand grand father slept with somebody he souldn't have!Hmmm... complicated even for me... still, it's only a matter of cells and chromosomes...

still, even if it takes, in general, couples of generations before deformations can be seens, don't sleep with your sister... it's awkward!

Cheers everybody!

It strikes me as odd that so many people have no real idea about genetics on any level and yet still claim to know everything about it from heresay and general guesswork.

The stuff i put in bold in the quote is probably the most laughable part of the whole inaccurate lot. Its way off topic so i won't explain what actually happens but if you really have to know PM me and I will give anyone a nice big boring lecture. (its actually kinda interesting if you are into that)

Seriously people, don't try and talk about specifics on anything if you really have no idea or if you heard the absolute truth according to this "real reliable guy you met down the pub". It just spreads around wrong information.

Subotan

09-04-2009, 15:13

15 generations is about 450 years. I highly doubt that one incestal relationship would lead to problems half a millenium down the line.

Blxz

09-04-2009, 15:50

15 generations is about 450 years. I highly doubt that one incestal relationship would lead to problems half a millenium down the line.

True, a shallow breeding pool just tends to bring recessive genes to the front. And often these tend to be mutations and some stuff. So loads (read LOADS) of inbreeding can get rid of the correct genes and just leave you with mutations.

AND, it would show up as soon as it happened, not magically appear 450 years down the track.

So everyone, it is safe to sleep with your sister. Just really disgusting morally and illegal in all western countries. Except 1st cousins are allowed to marry in Japan. Apparently thats far enough apart on the family tree.

Ludens

09-04-2009, 15:55

So everyone, it is safe to sleep with your sister. Just really disgusting morally and illegal in all western countries. Except 1st cousins are allowed to marry in Japan. Apparently thats far enough apart on the family tree.

Genetics is not my strongest field, but I do recall that, as a species, humans are genetically weak and derived from a small stock. So incest is a risk after a few generations. If I am wrong, feel free to send me your lecture.

Bucefalo

09-04-2009, 17:10

Yes, if you don´t mind i would also like to know a bit more about it.:book:

Apázlinemjó

09-04-2009, 17:48

I would like to know more about this too. I have little knowledge in biology as it wasn't a main subject in the last years of high school.

Ibrahim

09-04-2009, 23:44

So everyone, it is safe to sleep with your sister. Just really disgusting morally and illegal in all western countries. Except 1st cousins are allowed to marry in Japan. Apparently thats far enough apart on the family tree.

the following first countries also allow the cousin marriages: Kuwait, Emirates, and Qatar*. its an Arab thing:clown:

Inbreeding does indeed tend to cause serious trouble over generations, regardless of the genetic pool of the species (Ludens?), though it can get sharper in effect with a shrinking group. the Reason is because it tends to concentrate defective, or deleterious, mutations over a period of time, to the point of being incompatible with a healthy life. a simple example: suppose there are a pair, husband and wife, both having a gene, Xx. X is doinent, x is recessive. the recessive one gives people hell (say, born with bad hearts). the punett square will make the following children: XX, Xx, Xx, and xx. now, lets mate two at random, and see how the xx (bad heart) concentration changes. believe me, it goes up very quickly. here is a real life example. notice his jaw:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Juan_de_Miranda_Carreno_002.jpg

he's a Hapsburg...

*seriously, they should be considered 1st world: they have government care for people, and have modern infrastructures, high incomes, and good economies (and Kuwait has real freedom of speech). their only problem is that they are all oil addicted, though that is changing...slowly.

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

09-05-2009, 00:31

I want to add that there are two lines of the House of Habsburg, the Austrian and the Spanish. The Spanish are the inbred.

Fluvius Camillus

09-05-2009, 01:52

[..]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Juan_de_Miranda_Carreno_002.jpg

he's a Hapsburg...

[..]

:dizzy2::dizzy2:

Blxz

09-05-2009, 04:55

Inbreeding does indeed tend to cause serious trouble over generations, regardless of the genetic pool of the species (Ludens?), though it can get sharper in effect with a shrinking group. the Reason is because it tends to concentrate defective, or deleterious, mutations over a period of time, to the point of being incompatible with a healthy life. a simple example: suppose there are a pair, husband and wife, both having a gene, Xx. X is doinent, x is recessive. the recessive one gives people hell (say, born with bad hearts). the punett square will make the following children: XX, Xx, Xx, and xx. now, lets mate two at random, and see how the xx (bad heart) concentration changes. believe me, it goes up very quickly.

Ibrahim beat me to it. There is not alot more I could add without repeating what he basically said or going into more real-life examples.

And ludens you are very right, humans have had a very small stock to draw from in the past. There are some theories that the human population (or almost human creature thingy's on the evolution scale) may have gone as low as a few thousand people scattered over a country sized area at at least one and possibly other points in our history.

We are also supposedly linked to one woman (really old corpse) that was found who happens to have an almost exact match of a DNA that we have in a location that is not prone to mutations (coz mutations there lead to death - i think number of fingers and heart function are closely linked). This means that if that scientific paper was not lying, then we are all brothers from another mother. Although I think it could be faked. Getting DNA of any kind, especially accurate DNA from a 100,000yr old corpse no matter how preserved is close to impossible I thought.

Anyone able to provide more info on this? I think it might have been the 'Lucy' corpse that they found.

satalexton

09-05-2009, 06:50

/OT talk

This reminded me of an old saying: 'All wars are civil wars, as all men are brothers.'......

Ludens

09-05-2009, 15:12

*seriously, they should be considered 1st world: they have government care for people, and have modern infrastructures, high incomes, and good economies (and Kuwait has real freedom of speech). their only problem is that they are all oil addicted, though that is changing...slowly.

Oil-addiction is a problem? I thought it was a requirement for entering the first-world club.

Anyone able to provide more info on this? I think it might have been the 'Lucy' corpse that they found.

I doubt it, since Lucy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_%28Australopithecus%29) is only tentatively identified as a female. I agree it sounds unbelievable, by the way. Extracting DNA from organisms that old is possible, but there is a great risk of contamination.

Alien of Germania

09-05-2009, 17:25

Reading the last posts in this thread I think this should be locked...

Weebeast

09-05-2009, 17:46

So the famed Cleopatra did both her brothers too? Yuck, I'm getting images of the little brat seen in HBO Rome.
I highly doubt kid that age can produce sperm. Their union produced no child. I'd say no. They were co-rulers but those lines aren't supposed to be there. Clearly it's just people needing to exaggerate.

Incest is only bad if you produce offspring. Then again I encourage pretty much everyone not to reproduce until we don't see each other one county apart. Yes county. Country is too big.

Ludens

09-05-2009, 19:42

Reading the last posts in this thread I think this should be locked...

The thread has moved OT, but I think the original question has been sufficiently answered. If you disagree, feel free to PM me.

I highly doubt kid that age can produce sperm. Their union produced no child. I'd say no. They were co-rulers but those lines aren't supposed to be there. Clearly it's just people needing to exaggerate.

No, she was definitely married to both her brothers, although not at the same time. Presumably she couldn't rule on her own, and needed to do it through a male relative.

ARCHIPPOS

09-05-2009, 22:06

Incest is only bad if you produce offspring.

funniest quote in this damn thread :yes:

Weebeast

09-06-2009, 03:27

No, she was definitely married to both her brothers, although not at the same time. Presumably she couldn't rule on her own, and needed to do it through a male relative.
Yes I know but marriage =/= sex and the chart in this thread was labeled "family tree" not "list of Ptolemaic Pharaohs." That's what I'm trying to point out to Fluvius.

funniest quote in this damn thread
Funny how? Funny haha or funny "lol you did your sister" funny?

A Very Super Market

09-06-2009, 06:46

Producing children would be inbreeding, not incest, so the statement is quite correct. Technically.

Subotan

09-06-2009, 11:48

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Juan_de_Miranda_Carreno_002.jpg

he's a Hapsburg...

Hell, even Carlos I/Charles V found it difficult to eat properly, and always ate alone, out of shame. Charles II on the other hand, (I.e. this guy) not only found it impossible to eat without assistance, but was mentally incapacitated, infertile and his death brought about a 13 year long war for his throne.

So that is why you don't inbreed.

moonburn

09-07-2009, 03:55

It strikes me as odd that so many people have no real idea about genetics on any level and yet still claim to know everything about it from heresay and general guesswork.

The stuff i put in bold in the quote is probably the most laughable part of the whole inaccurate lot. Its way off topic so i won't explain what actually happens but if you really have to know PM me and I will give anyone a nice big boring lecture. (its actually kinda interesting if you are into that)

Seriously people, don't try and talk about specifics on anything if you really have no idea or if you heard the absolute truth according to this "real reliable guy you met down the pub". It just spreads around wrong information.

please do we´re here to learn if anyone finds it boring he can just skip it :laugh4:

to the best of my knowledge dna studies show that the diference beteween a native american and a greek was only of around 24.000 years since they had a common ancestor and most humans in the world are extremly similar except for africans wich are those who are most diferent from the rest and thus can be the human salvation towards a diversification of our gens pool

the explination that was given to me for this was the java super volcano that exploded around 80.000 years ago and created a type of nuclear winter wich in turn killed all major animals in great numbers and thus humans also creating a botleneck effect like the one currently seen in cheetah´s in africa

as for people talking about mutations i don´t consider them bad the base for any species diversity lies in those mutations or else we would all be clones, the major problem i believe (and i´m not certain of this) is that most mutations are the "right" mutations

fleaza

09-07-2009, 06:53

it doesnt matter if their children became retarded through inbreeding, its the fact that they were inbreeding that is the funny part. i mean come on, just bring a noble daughter over from makedonia and just farm babies from her. keeping power within the family is a lame excuse. ptolemy was a cunning fox but i dont tink inbreeding was one of his better ideas.

did i mention the incredibly boring starting location of the egyptians? your settlements in israel and asia minor are so vulnerable and you feel obligated to defend them.

satalexton

09-07-2009, 07:46

actually i tend to leave those jews and asian mountain monkeys to their own devices, n secure western north afrika first, then spam keltoi and elite pikemen to streamroll the seleukidai.

Subotan

09-07-2009, 09:18

as for people talking about mutations i don´t consider them bad the base for any species diversity lies in those mutations or else we would all be clones, the major problem i believe (and i´m not certain of this) is that most mutations are the "right" mutations
There's no such thing as "right mutations".

it doesnt matter if their children became retarded through inbreeding, its the fact that they were inbreeding that is the funny part. i mean come on, just bring a noble daughter over from makedonia and just farm babies from her. keeping power within the family is a lame excuse. ptolemy was a cunning fox but i dont tink inbreeding was one of his better ideas.

Yes, because Ptolemy had an advanced knowledge of genetics. :inquisitive:

did i mention the incredibly boring starting location of the egyptians? your settlements in israel and asia minor are so vulnerable and you feel obligated to defend them.
They are in pretty much exactly the same boat as the Makedonians, who have their own undefended cities in Korinth/Pellas. Besides, I find the Ptolemaioi's position interesting because those areas are vulnerable.

Blxz

09-07-2009, 12:05

There's no such thing as "right mutations".

True.

Yes, because Ptolemy had an advanced knowledge of genetics. :inquisitive:

True.

They are in pretty much exactly the same boat as the Makedonians, who have their own undefended cities in Korinth/Pellas. Besides, I find the Ptolemaioi's position interesting because those areas are vulnerable.

True again. Although I did end up losing the asia minor ones in my last game it was as a decent trade for securing every city up to and including Antiochea. It sort of requires you to spread yourself around a bit, especially if you are also chasing the southern regions and have no way to quickyl bring your army back from Meroe area, etc. Fun times with a bit of strategic planning.

Subotan

09-08-2009, 10:50

True.
True.
True again.

Ding ding ding! Do I win a prize? :laugh4:

Although I did end up losing the asia minor ones in my last game it was as a decent trade for securing every city up to and including Antiochea. It sort of requires you to spread yourself around a bit, especially if you are also chasing the southern regions and have no way to quickyl bring your army back from Meroe area, etc. Fun times with a bit of strategic planning.
Exactly. Besides, there's loads of different playing styles. You can abandon Cilicia, defend it, focus on Africa, go for Anatolia or Persia... You've got more possibilities than, say, the Luso have, who can only go into Iberia and then can go for Gaul or Africa.

king of thracia

09-11-2009, 08:12

As ARCHE SELEUKEIA, Ruling from the greatest throne in the world, taking all the Ptolemaioi border regions and developing them proves very lucrative. The Ptolies have had nothing outside of Egypt for many years now and I would say out of those whom I am at war with they are the least threatening to my borders :beam: those would be of the ARCHE SELEUKEIA

That is, the ARCHE SELEUKEIA, the greatest throne in the world. Did I mention that it is the greatest throne in the world? :smash: Eat it, Ptolies :2thumbsup:

fleaza

09-14-2009, 02:10

There's no such thing as "right mutations".

Yes, because Ptolemy had an advanced knowledge of genetics. :inquisitive:

They are in pretty much exactly the same boat as the Makedonians, who have their own undefended cities in Korinth/Pellas. Besides, I find the Ptolemaioi's position interesting because those areas are vulnerable.

because the makedones settlements are close together and the ptolemaioi far apart. antigonos gonatas also starts near athens so he can quickly connect it. and no the makedones arent in the same boat, the ptolmies have their settlements spread throughout the desert which take 510 turns to traverse.

Head Casse

09-14-2009, 04:00

Anyone able to provide more info on this? I think it might have been the 'Lucy' corpse that they found.

It's been a long time since my undergrad days but I think you may be referring to 'Mitochondrial Eve'. As far as I remember it this term doesn't denote a particular paleontological find, rather a theory of coalescence in mtDNA to provide an estimate for the most recent common female ancestor.

There's a book I started, but didn't finish, by Steve Olson called Mapping Human History if you're interested in this kind of thing.

Blxz

09-14-2009, 05:25

It's been a long time since my undergrad days but I think you may be referring to 'Mitochondrial Eve'. As far as I remember it this term doesn't denote a particular paleontological find, rather a theory of coalescence in mtDNA to provide an estimate for the most recent common female ancestor.

There's a book I started, but didn't finish, by Steve Olson called Mapping Human History if you're interested in this kind of thing.

Very much interested. I'll go and search it out. Thanks for helping clarify all that.

Subotan

09-14-2009, 18:12

the ptolmies have their settlements spread throughout the desert which take 510 turns to traverse.

The one legitimate complaint you have posted, and even then only to a degree if you go for Syria/Anatolia rather than Africa.

because the makedones settlements are close together and the ptolemaioi far apart.

Which is what makes the Ptolemaioi even more vulnerable, and thus even more interesting.

antigonos gonatas also starts near athens so he can quickly connect it.

Again, you seem to be thinking that the word "difficult" is a synonym for "boring". For most people, it isn't.

Macilrille

09-14-2009, 19:53

To mix Absinthe with anything but caramellised sugar or a bit of water is barbaric.

I have rarely fought the EB Ptolies as they are so far away then become the Yellow Fever or succumb to The Grey Death, and I have never played them either. Factions with a strong warrior ethos appeal to me, or exotic factions. Res Publica Romana, Macs and Sweboz are the former, Bactria the latter. Ptolemaioi... not. Perhaps one day in EB II.

Subotan

09-14-2009, 21:34

To mix Absinthe with anything but caramellised sugar or a bit of water is barbaric.

Quite. That's why I used Absinthe, as we're, uh, more "refreshing" than ginger beer, but not any less sophisticated.

WinsingtonIII

09-17-2009, 01:27

There's no such thing as "right mutations".

That's not entirely true. They may not be called "right" mutations per se, but there are certainly such things as beneficial mutations. Beneficial gene mutations are the basis of biological evolution.

Why is it that the last three posts I've made on this forum pertain to Darwin? It's just not normally what I expect to be talking about here...

Ibrahim

09-17-2009, 03:09

I want to add that there are two lines of the House of Habsburg, the Austrian and the Spanish. The Spanish are the inbred.

yeah I forgot to mention that.:wall:

I'm well aware of how this particular hapsburger changed history: the war of Spanish succession practically made britain a military power, not just in Europe, but the world. it also made the Churchills rich and famous. no john churchill winning battles right and left = no Winstton Churchill as prime minister.

@ Ludens: yeah, I know Oil Addiction is a 1st world thing, but what I meant was that the well being of the economy depended on it far more than even the US or some european country, not just their 1st world transportation systems:clown: in the sense that 70-90% of all revenue headed to government comes from Oil.

Ludens

09-17-2009, 19:43

@ Ludens: yeah, I know Oil Addiction is a 1st world thing, but what I meant was that the well being of the economy depended on it far more than even the US or some european country, not just their 1st world transportation systems:clown: in the sense that 70-90% of all revenue headed to government comes from Oil.

If oil production falls, it's not just our transportation systems that will be in trouble. But this is getting very OT.

Servilius Novus

05-01-2012, 12:12

To those who hate the Ptolemaioi, this might cheer you up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ubEXSDKoig :laugh4:

Btw personally I love the Ptolemaioi :egypt:

seleucid empire

05-01-2012, 15:21

i am biased towards arche seleukia so naturally i dislike them. Its also to do with the fact that:
1. They have a typical successor roster with worse units. Only their galatians and elite pikemen are great. For some reason their expensive agema unit always does nothing for me
2. They spam elite pikemen
3. They conquer the world due to good starting position and only one enemy and i love the underdogs. In EB AS is something of an underdog, because despite their large territory no other faction has to face 4-5 enemies straight away and pressing from every single direction
4. On VH/M their campaign becomes a nightmare due to large rebel stacks besieging cities down south which take SOOO long to get to
5. I hate seeing yellow death no matter which faction I play. I always help Seleucids if im rich enough. No matter what faction I am i will send an army on some ships and take alexandria, sack it and give to AS with a money gift. I then send the stack to reconquer Antioch for the AS and all of Syria and down to Jerusalem. I sack every city and give all the profits to the AS
6. Historically Ptolemies would have been wiped out by Antiochus IV but they went and begged the Romans for help like any common coward. If they had just accepted the fact that the AS were better than them then the Seleucids would have the wealth of Egypt and Greeks would have ruled the east instead of the Romans

MButcher

05-01-2012, 17:02

i am biased towards arche seleukia so naturally i dislike them. Its also to do with the fact that:
6. Historically Ptolemies would have been wiped out by Antiochus IV but they went and begged the Romans for help like any common coward. If they had just accepted the fact that the AS were better than them then the Seleucids would have the wealth of Egypt and Greeks would have ruled the east instead of the Romans

Let's be fair about whom we call a coward. Antiochus IV gave up on conquering Egypt because a single Roman envoy intimidated him in front of his own army.

As for the claim that the Seleukids were "better" than the Ptolemies - better in what way? Militarily? That's a valid claim, though it didn't help them in being conquered by the Parthians and Pompey.

FinnishedBarbarian

05-01-2012, 20:02

Let's be fair about whom we call a coward. Antiochus IV gave up on conquering Egypt because a single Roman envoy intimidated him in front of his own army.

That envoy had ultimatum directly from Roman senate, kind of like some modern country (not russia or china) would receive ultimatum from U.S senate, there aren't many rulers/countries who would go to ignore such threat.

And calling Ptolemies cowards due to their actions during sixth syrian war is valid afterall Ptolemy (or his advisors) started it by demanding return of coele-syria and after being rebuffed reacted by declaring war where they were totally defeated by Antiochus. Philometor then went to betray his uncle when he made peace with his brother after which they cryed for Rome's help. All in all sounds quite spineless to me.

As for the claim that the Seleukids were "better" than the Ptolemies - better in what way? Militarily? That's a valid claim, though it didn't help them in being conquered by the Parthians and Pompey.

Is there any other way to determine superiority than military strength? Organisation maybe,but both kingdoms suffered from dissent so it's hard to say which one was better governed.

Arjos

05-01-2012, 20:46

The "line in the sand" episode is a nice tale and all, but one must put it into context: the Seleucid court was in a deep financial crisis, due to war indemnities and lost wars; Demetrios (the real heir and brother to Antiochos IV) was held hostage in Roma...

It was the wisest choice to make: taking on the Ptolemaioi as they were dealing with rebellions in the Thebai and Triakontaschoinos was feasible, facing the SPQR wasn't...
Not to mention at the same time the Pahlava were occupying Media...

Bottom line it wasn't an ultimatum, but the political equivalent of an adult holding a child by the forehead...

MButcher

05-02-2012, 00:27

And calling Ptolemies cowards due to their actions during sixth syrian war is valid afterall Ptolemy (or his advisors) started it by demanding return of coele-syria and after being rebuffed reacted by declaring war where they were totally defeated by Antiochus. Philometor then went to betray his uncle when he made peace with his brother after which they cryed for Rome's help. All in all sounds quite spineless to me.

I'm afraid I should have been more clear. My comment wasn't an argument that the Ptolemies were somehow more brave, or less cowardly, than the Seleukids. I absolutely agree that certain actions taken by the Ptolemies can be called cowardly. My comment was merely meant to show that there was more to the episode than the original poster stated.

Is there any other way to determine superiority than military strength? Organisation maybe,but both kingdoms suffered from dissent so it's hard to say which one was better governed.

This is precisely what I was calling into question. To say that "the AS were better than them (i.e. the Ptolemies)" is quite a broad statement. We cannot say that one kingdom was "better" than another, because "better" is too broad and subjective.

Titus Marcellus Scato

05-02-2012, 06:26

5. I hate seeing yellow death no matter which faction I play. I always help Seleucids if im rich enough. No matter what faction I am i will send an army on some ships and take alexandria, sack it and give to AS with a money gift. I then send the stack to reconquer Antioch for the AS and all of Syria and down to Jerusalem. I sack every city and give all the profits to the AS

My way of dealing with AI Ptolemies and Quarthadast becoming too powerful is to set up Saba to become their nemesis. I figure the only cities Ptolemies and Quarthadast really exercised good control over historically were the coastal cities (with ports) - i.e. the ones that are easy to ship reinforcements to quickly. But the inland towns are more native Egyptian and Numidian than Hellenic or Carthaginian, so shouldn't really be under long-term Ptolemy/Carthage control. So I use Force Diplomacy to take the inland towns off them and give them to Saba on a regular basis - simulating regular native rebellions.

seleucid empire

05-02-2012, 09:43

Let's be fair about whom we call a coward. Antiochus IV gave up on conquering Egypt because a single Roman envoy intimidated him in front of his own army.

As for the claim that the Seleukids were "better" than the Ptolemies - better in what way? Militarily? That's a valid claim, though it didn't help them in being conquered by the Parthians and Pompey.

Well Antiochus IV made a smart decision. His empire was crippled by the war indemnities which his predecessors had to pay after Magnesia. Thats why im not a particularly big fan of his predecessor Antiochus III. In the battle of Magnesia the right wing of the Seleucid cavalry led by Antiochus III routed the Roman left but instead of turning around and flanking the Romans or supporting his own failing left he charged n chasing routers believing the battle was won. This was almost EXACTLY the same mistake he had made at Raphia. I guess he was a little too hot headed to learn from his mistakes

As for the Ptolemies, they pretty much became vassals of Rome after they begged them for help

Titus Marcellus Scato

05-02-2012, 10:56

In the battle of Magnesia the right wing of the Seleucid cavalry led by Antiochus III routed the Roman left but instead of turning around and flanking the Romans or supporting his own failing left he charged n chasing routers believing the battle was won. This was almost EXACTLY the same mistake he had made at Raphia. I guess he was a little too hot headed to learn from his mistakes

More likely, Antiochus III didn't have sufficient control over his cavalry to stop them chasing routers. Not that this makes him a bad general - chasing routers was a very normal activity for ancient cavalry. Only very disciplined cavalry can be stopped from chasing routers and made to reform for another charge on a different part of the battlefield, and usually this has to be planned for and communicated to the men in advance of the battle (like Hannibal's cavalry at Cannae.) If a general wanted formed cavalry for the later stages of a battle, normally he had to keep a fresh, uncommitted unit in reserve. Which is hard to do when you're short of cavalry, because you are forced to throw everything in at the start just to fight off the enemy cavalry.

seleucid empire

05-02-2012, 11:26

More likely, Antiochus III didn't have sufficient control over his cavalry to stop them chasing routers. Not that this makes him a bad general - chasing routers was a very normal activity for ancient cavalry. Only very disciplined cavalry can be stopped from chasing routers and made to reform for another charge on a different part of the battlefield, and usually this has to be planned for and communicated to the men in advance of the battle (like Hannibal's cavalry at Cannae.) If a general wanted formed cavalry for the later stages of a battle, normally he had to keep a fresh, uncommitted unit in reserve. Which is hard to do when you're short of cavalry, because you are forced to throw everything in at the start just to fight off the enemy cavalry.

good point but from what i read i blame antiochus himself for his defeats because he personally led the cavalry in at both Raphia and Magnesia. And wouldn't the Seleucid cavalry be pretty disciplined especially the companions and the agema? also the Seleucids had quite a big advantage in cavalry in that battle. i read this online extract too which said he put elephants in between his phalanx companies which seems like a weird move.
Well to be honest im not really a fan of any seleucid generals other than Seleucus himself and Antiochus IV. But i have to admire them because unlike the Ptolemies, most of the Seleucid Kings had to go on campaigns a lot because of the vastness of the empire and the frequent rebellions and attacks of the Parthians

Arjos

05-02-2012, 12:30

To be frank you should read more about the Ptoleis :P

Soter was a great general and secured for himself a kingdom out of nowhere (he actually made the Seleucid Empire possible, without his help Seleukos would have ended up a beggar)...
Philadelphos had a decent go at thalassocracy of the eastern mediterranean; and as a ruler (economy and internal affairs) could have possibly been the most successful among all the Epigonoi...
Eurgetes was actually recognized as Basileos of Asia...
Philopator faced superior indian elephants and cavalry, had enough field generalship to regroup and win Raphia (if only Antiochos Megas could have picked a little of that :P)...

As for campaigning, just look at how many syrian wars there are and rebellions they faced a lot of them...

Both kingdoms stood equal, whether due to military/economic might or political shrewdness, that's why the constantly "cancel" eachother out and bled themselves, allowing new powers to rise...

seleucid empire

05-02-2012, 13:28

ahh yes i was aware that Ptolemy was the one who helped seleucus rise to power
im really talking about the entire history of the empires not just the first dew good kings tho :D
most of the Ptolemies after Ptolemy III just lost more and more land and less influence
for raphia it it was antiochus not realising that the battle was over rather than Ptolemy IV's strategy
also i believe that although he was present in the battle he left most of the commanding to merc generals such as Polycrates of Argos?? correct me if im wrong. As well as the fact that ptolemy himself was a weak king under the influence of his ministers who were the ones who organised the recruitment of the army

Arjos

05-02-2012, 13:58

im really talking about the entire history of the empires not just the first dew good kings tho :D

Which is the same exact (actually shorter) story for the Seleukidai...
In fact, the Ptolemaioi were smarter and retained a certain independence: most of all the roman emperors could have been part Lagidai under certain circumstances or at least friend of Roma and rulers in the east...

As well as the fact that ptolemy himself was a weak king under the influence of his ministers who were the ones who organised the recruitment of the army

Why would a basileos personally oversee recruitment and training? That's what strategoi and officials are for XD
Philopator was leading the left flank, they did their best against all odds, eventually got overrun and he had the cool to get back to the center and lift spirits and coordinate the phalanx, thus winning the battle...

seleucid empire

05-02-2012, 16:28

haha nono i meant that he was like a puppet for his ministers. They recruited when they saw the threat and they managed most of his policies thus the decline of the ptolemies

Arjos

05-02-2012, 22:11

haha nono i meant that he was like a puppet for his ministers.

He and Antiochos were both like 20, anyway that's not true: he/they faced rebellions (quite well organized) and backed by Meroe in the south...
The Aegean territories were already lost previously, they could only keep a defensive policy (except the usual syrian claims), rather than expansionistic, considered the several succession crisis to come aswell...

capomafioso

05-03-2012, 10:35

the simplest answer is because they are like barnacles eating into the hull of my enjoyable game, they swallow AS and everything else, i dont even know why, i turned down their money script so they get less each turn, still they destroy every eastern faction (although it seems to be slower than before), even with a turned down money script and giving 80000 to the AS every second turn they rip them apart. it makes the game tedious. i imagine a better strategy would be to run spies and a good assassin to antioch as soon as the ptolemaioi take it, and disable their barracks each turn, then they cant make elites, and hopefully they would get pushed back

moonburn

05-03-2012, 10:57

ptolemaioi in terms of army are easy to disable just take out the barracks in alexandreia and the other city just bellow and they will be 10 years without recruiting their elite armies and then they should be easyer altough ...

if they lack the elite units it means they can recruit far more in numbers ...

can´t wait for eb2 with limited recruitment pools

recently i started doing 1 simple thing i try and have 1 single unit of every recruitable units in the city and when war arrives i just gather them all together into regional armies to face off the threat

works great aslong as you got enough cash and don´t need the men (i play in huge)
if there was a script to allow the recruiting of 9 units in 1 turn but limited it to 1 single unit type it would be amazing and really help the historical accuracy since most armies where levies who where disbanded before the harvest time (so add a timer where to recruit you would only pay like 25% of their recruitment cost and then for every turn you would have to add 25% and try to disband them before autumm or else you would pay the full priçe + a small bonus )

just saying