1.3.1, Maratha steamroller - the only AI with a "purpose"?

[Slaists]

It seems, that regardless of what faction the player picks, Marathas is the only AI faction that seems to shoot straight for their respective goals. Usually, by 1740'ies they have taken over ALL of India, Persia and are pushing straight into Anatolia and across the Caucasus into Russia. I suspect, that if they player picks factions such as Prussia, Austria, Sweden, etc. (factions that do not have any goals in India), and strictly adheres to the long campaign goals, Marathas might come out as winners (have their 25 province goal) or there'd be a tie between the player and the Indians.

The question is, why only Marathas? Why are other potent AI factions (Spain, Britain, France, Russia, Ottomans) seemingly unable to demonstrate any kind of pointed direction (towards their respective campaign goals)?

[PseRamesses]

Simple. They have only one way to go.

[Sheogorath]

One way to go, only one major enemy to fight, no money issues ever...

Oh, and elephants. I bet it has something to do with having elephants.

[Servius]

Yep, that's what I thought too. They have relatively few variables to deal with:
- Only one major opponent to deal with at a time (first Mughals, then Persia). Portugal and Mysore are trivial hindrances.
- Only one direction (northwest) to expand and be threatened by.
- No economic problems due to prosperous/wealth towns, internal trade goods for export, and many ports.

The little German states are in the complete opposite situation. They're completely surrounded by potential enemies, their regions, though rich, are tiny.

[Sheogorath]

You forgot to mention the elephants. Very important, elephants.

[Beskar]

another thing is, everyone in Europe is allied to each other on many different fronts.

[Seyavash]

A side question for me is why the United Provinces never tries to expand further in India? Portugal may have some financing issues, but UP has other colonies that should fund an expansion policy. It cannot be just the naval invasion issue as I have seen Maratha invade Ceylon so the opposite should occur too.

[peacemaker]

Well I think one of the reasons is that the UP has no incentive to invade india. many of their campaign goals are in the americas or in europe, but the only province in india needed is ceylon.

[Mr Polska]

I'm pretty sure they need Carnatica (Arcot) as a victory condition.

[Peasant Phill]

UP has the southern most province of mainland India as a victory condition. Although, they have other more pressing issues than to stand up against a giant who starts of friendly.

[Prussian to the Iron]

several factors:

-only 1 way to expand
-very low chance of any european powers DoWing, meaning they can trade with just about anyone
-can easily defeat the mostly-melee mughals in battle
-elephants to annhilate mughal cavalry and arty
-usually rich regions
-very little strife

[Beskar]

France and Great Britain are meant to attack India, according to what is said, but as the same goes, they are also fighting over America.

[Prussian to the Iron]

oddly, ive never seen any non-me european power(except portugal and UP obviously) even in the indian theatre, not even ships.

[Slaists]

oddly, ive never seen any non-me european power(except portugal and UP obviously) even in the indian theatre, not even ships.

I second that.

However, given the current AI, I am not convinced a European AI faction would be able to survive in India two/three turns...

1) They'd need to get a substantial army (more than 1 stack, for sure; a mix of Baghirs, Sikhs, Elephants, etc., have high chances of auto-win against any faction's early/middle period troops) there, past the European enemies, the Indian fleets and the pirates. More than one stack implies a coordinated movement of several fleets.

2) Even if an AI faction managed to ship a decent army over, as already suggested in #1, the Maratha unit mix/stats seems very favorable for an auto-resolve in their favor. Even if the aggressive European faction won the auto-fight, at best, they'd have a province with destroyed infrastructure and a half depleted (or worse) army. The next fresh army, or two, that Marathas would throw at them would wipe the European aggressors off the sub-continent...

So, I do not see any European AI potentially being successful at invading India, given the current state of CAI. A European AI might get lucky at an opportunistic province grab, but the Maratha AI would wipe them out very fast. Maybe, a successful invasion could be possible if a European AI was given a scripted, coordinated invasion plan during the initial fight between Marathas, Mysore and Mughals. But I do not see it happening without a script...

P.S. Sensei has suggested that in the beta 1.4 patch he has witnessed Maratha invasion of the Americas. THAT I can see happening... Marathas should be able to auto-wipe the floor with the colonial units in the Americas...

[antisocialmunky]

India needs more loyalty issues. Seriously, military didn't defeat India it was shewd bribery.

[Slaists]

India needs more loyalty issues. Seriously, military didn't defeat India it was shewd bribery.

Yup, that and fractionalism...

[Seyavash]

I second that.

However, given the current AI, I am not convinced a European AI faction would be able to survive in India two/three turns...

1) They'd need to get a substantial army (more than 1 stack, for sure; a mix of Baghirs, Sikhs, Elephants, etc., have high chances of auto-win against any faction's early/middle period troops) there, past the European enemies, the Indian fleets and the pirates. More than one stack implies a coordinated movement of several fleets.

2) Even if an AI faction managed to ship a decent army over, as already suggested in #1, the Maratha unit mix/stats seems very favorable for an auto-resolve in their favor. Even if the aggressive European faction won the auto-fight, at best, they'd have a province with destroyed infrastructure and a half depleted (or worse) army. The next fresh army, or two, that Marathas would throw at them would wipe the European aggressors off the sub-continent...

So, I do not see any European AI potentially being successful at invading India, given the current state of CAI. A European AI might get lucky at an opportunistic province grab, but the Maratha AI would wipe them out very fast. Maybe, a successful invasion could be possible if a European AI was given a scripted, coordinated invasion plan during the initial fight between Marathas, Mysore and Mughals. But I do not see it happening without a script...

P.S. Sensei has suggested that in the beta 1.4 patch he has witnessed Maratha invasion of the Americas. THAT I can see happening... Marathas should be able to auto-wipe the floor with the colonial units in the Americas...

This is why I would expect UP to actually try. They have a good base already in the area and simply need a local fleet to transport their troops to the mainland. They could easily support such an invasion if they properly developed Ceylon. Unfortunately I have yet to see UP get aggressive anywhere. Maybe they need to steal some of Courland's mojo. :clown:

[Slaists]

This is why I would expect UP to actually try. They have a good base already in the area and simply need a local fleet to transport their troops to the mainland. They could easily support such an invasion if they properly developed Ceylon. Unfortunately I have yet to see UP get aggressive anywhere. Maybe they need to steal some of Courland's mojo. :clown:

Yup. UP could try (I always start my Indian invasion by exchanging some territory for Ceylon or just kicking Marathas out of there if they have taken it). Ceylon is an excellent naval base to get things started in India. The only problem is that the Indian AI's are now hardwired to take Ceylon from anyone who holds it, unless the Indian invasion fleets are sunk.

But, I guess, UP has more pressing issues at home (France and Spain breathing down their neck)... Also, being an AI they must have a really difficult time developing their trade (not sending stacks composed of 90% war ships to sit in trade theaters) + fighting the pirates (the AI has no clue how to eliminate the pirate threat) + it takes the UP AI 20 years to figure how to kick out that Prussian fleet sitting in their only home trading harbor. Not that AI in 1.3.1 needs any trade (but that's a different matter).

[Prussian to the Iron]

Marathas aren't that tough, but yet again I haven't tried auto-reslving against them.

Prussian campaign:

Saw a rebel province that left my ally the Marathas, so I sailed over with a full stack and took it.
After conquering another province, Mughals+Marathas DoW on me.
Allied with Mughals
Took 3 more provinces running straight across India, including Bengal
Tried to raise an army (You could see mine was obviously worn down)
Invaded a large city (don't remember name)
Failed Epicly
Several Maratha Incursions into my new territory. A couple succesfull sieges, but they were taken back swiftly with masses of Company Infantry and Howitzers.


So I suppose the Marathas could mop the floor with some of the other factions who might invade (using the AUM mod, and the original stack had the best of the best units) if not done properly. I think 2-3 stacks would blow them to pieces though, especially with a southern invasion. Start out with Mysore and the other city next to it, and you already control a good portion of land. Taking the capital is easy from there, which means victory or peace aint so hard to get.

[Slaists]

Marathas aren't that tough, but yet again I haven't tried auto-reslving against them.

Prussian campaign:

Saw a rebel province that left my ally the Marathas, so I sailed over with a full stack and took it.
After conquering another province, Mughals+Marathas DoW on me.
Allied with Mughals
Took 3 more provinces running straight across India, including Bengal
Tried to raise an army (You could see mine was obviously worn down)
Invaded a large city (don't remember name)
Failed Epicly
Several Maratha Incursions into my new territory. A couple succesfull sieges, but they were taken back swiftly with masses of Company Infantry and Howitzers.


So I suppose the Marathas could mop the floor with some of the other factions who might invade (using the AUM mod, and the original stack had the best of the best units) if not done properly. I think 2-3 stacks would blow them to pieces though, especially with a southern invasion. Start out with Mysore and the other city next to it, and you already control a good portion of land. Taking the capital is easy from there, which means victory or peace aint so hard to get.

The question is not whether the player can do it. The player can conquer India hands down with any faction (probably spare North American Indians). The question is whether a major non-Indian based AI faction (Britain, France, UP, Spain) can do it. And, I believe that given the current AI, that's impossible.