View Full Version : Mercenaries
DemonArchangel
08-25-2009, 22:45
Why do so many nations have problems with letting their citizens become mercenaries? Organizations like Executive Outcomes have done a great job with ending insurgencies in Africa, while Blackwater, despite having its share of problems, has prevented State Department officials from getting killed while in Iraq.
Is it because of ethical issues, or because of other factors like nations wanting to hold onto their trained personnel solely for their own use?
HoreTore
08-25-2009, 23:14
Mercenaries....
Can burn in hell. Capital punishment for anyone who joins organizations in that business.
My opinion anyway.
Kralizec
08-25-2009, 23:33
Mercenaries....
Can burn in hell. Capital punishment for anyone who joins organizations in that business.
My opinion anyway.
Oh, come on. What about the A-team ?!?!?!
Kadagar_AV
08-26-2009, 03:25
As sergeant in the army: may they burn.
war should not be about money.
also, they do not follow the moral code the rest do.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
08-26-2009, 04:38
Mercenaries, properly disciplined and kept under full control of their employer, can and should have a role in modern warfare in some way if employing mercenaries is deemed sound and practical by the potential employer.
Kadagar_AV
08-26-2009, 05:24
EMFM, elaborate.
WHY would we need them?
I mean, exactly in what part of warfare do we need troops not held by the Genevé convention?
Mercenaries are only for security jobs, aren't they? Not actual offensive combat.
Kadagar_AV
08-26-2009, 05:31
depends, Beskar.
Are you talking USA or world wide?
Also, in the USA the mercs have done combat ops, in some situations even leading troops from regular army.
They also have been contracted to torture people.
war should not be about money.
also, they do not follow the moral code the rest do.
Ya, war should be about your country, and enhancing its power! o wait...
It should be about God, and getting rid of those heathens! no, thats not it...
Its about bringing those barbarians out of the dark ages and into civilization! No, thats never worked out....
So what exactly is the "right" reason for war?
And I doubt all soldiers have a code of ethics. Either im naive or you are.
Kadagar_AV
08-26-2009, 05:57
Mooks,
naive..
I would fight and die for the principles I deem worthy of fighting and dying for. Be it nationalistic ones or philisophical ones.
That is the ONLY reason why anyone should point a gun at someone else, and pull the trigger.
Money, is not a worthy reason.
As an example, I am sgt in the army, that does NOT however mean I would automaticly go to war if sweden called. It depends on what the war was about.
My grandfather was NOT a soldier, but went to war against hitler.
I get back to my original statement, waging war should NEVER be about money.
I get back to my original statement, waging war should NEVER be about money.
:laugh4: All the ads for the defence force here emphasise the good pay and free education. Dying for your country is never mentioned. the mindset of the youth here in relation to the army is;
"Possibility of death for my country? @#$% that!"
"Possibility of death for lots of money and free education? *stops and thinks for a minute* a few say yes, most still say @#$% that!" :smash:
Mercenaries: Can be useful in dirty jobs? Not really because if the Big Authority, the only one which has the legal right to use violence, gives the Green Light, some special squad would do the jobs…
The only use of mercenaries is to hind the casualties…
You do not join the Army or sign for modern mercenaries for the same reasons. One is for ideological and the second for money (Iraq), boredom, need of adrenaline and others…
Then what laws apply to mercenaries? Geneva is caught prisoner, Common law if they kill some body? Or no law at all, random law depending the case, the employer, circumstances etc…
What if they change side? Mercenaries can do this. You can change employers, giving your notice then do to the other side… Would be it betraying? Or just usual and common employment rules? In some jobs you can’t apply to a similar post in concurrent companies for a certain amount of time (e.g. if you know clients).
:idea2:
LittleGrizzly
08-26-2009, 06:49
Deniabilty...
Mercenaries help provide this for rich nations bound by silly and unfair rules... I don't want this available to them...
Papewaio
08-26-2009, 07:07
:laugh4: All the ads for the defence force here emphasise the good pay and free education. Dying for your country is never mentioned. the mindset of the youth here in relation to the army is;
"Possibility of death for my country? @#$% that!"
"Possibility of death for lots of money and free education? *stops and thinks for a minute* a few say yes, most still say @#$% that!" :smash:
You more or less get a free education in Australia anyhow and most jobs out pay the army for the same conditions (mining).
Lord Winter
08-26-2009, 07:51
History has proven that mercenaries will stab you in the back the miniute things go south. You can talk about ethics all you want but in the end there not viable anyway.
HoreTore
08-26-2009, 08:44
Mercenaries are only for security jobs, aren't they? Not actual offensive combat.
Security jobs? Don't believe the hype.
Mercenaries exist to enable brutal dictators to enforce their rule, or help a would-be dictator with his coup.
Hired killers. Nothing more.
Ironside
08-26-2009, 10:31
Why do so many nations have problems with letting their citizens become mercenaries? Organizations like Executive Outcomes have done a great job with ending insurgencies in Africa, while Blackwater, despite having its share of problems, has prevented State Department officials from getting killed while in Iraq.
Is it because of ethical issues, or because of other factors like nations wanting to hold onto their trained personnel solely for their own use?
The main problem occurs when the conflict are about to be over. You see, you can be too efficient as a merc... So there's a certain conflict of interest.
Then there is the loyalty issue, as for mercs in general it's perfectly fine switching sides as soon as their contract runs out (and still be considered trustworthy). The old school merc wars had the winning side recruiting troops from the prisoners of the loser.
Third, they're fairly usable as black ops units if they do show preference for certain employers, as in that case they're a bit more reliable, while still more expendable than your own units.
Fourth, trouble handling them in a conflict. If you capture them, are they pow? If they join you, what's their status?
Fifth, they shift the monopoly of violence from the state, to whom can afford them. Spreading use of military force is normally not a good thing.
Sixth, spread of higher quality military training, but that's mostly for the states.
Centurion1
08-26-2009, 15:07
Security jobs? Don't believe the hype.
Mercenaries exist to enable brutal dictators to enforce their rule, or help a would-be dictator with his coup.
Hired killers. Nothing more.
blackwater, executive operations, etc. do not put evil dictators into power. They are security guards for high ranking us officials (and on occaison other western nations) They are mostly all retired special forces soldiers. they free up real spec forces for offense but still allow good protection for high risk assets.
You need to stop playing mercenaries. Nillson is not a reality he is a video game character.
HoreTore
08-26-2009, 15:17
blackwater, executive operations, etc. do not put evil dictators into power. They are security guards for high ranking us officials (and on occaison other western nations) They are mostly all retired special forces soldiers. they free up real spec forces for offense but still allow good protection for high risk assets.
Pick any coup in africa, and there's a 99% chance that there were mercs involved. Mercs don't do "security jobs" in africa. They're hired to kill. Either by protecting those companies looking to exploit natural resources, a would-be dictator looking to overthrow an opponent or a dictator needing someone to kill his opponents, mercs will almost certainly be involved.
As for Iraq and afghanistan, the problem with mercs there is that they're not bound by conventions, and as such has nothing to do there. They are indeed the "unlawful combatants" you've been putting in gitmo these last years. Military power should remain in the hands of the state alone. If Blackwater is so damn useful in Iraq, and it's not because they can murder as they please without getting caught, then I suggest that the US spend the money they pay blackwater on their own military, in compliance with the geneva convention.
Like every other respectable nation does.
You need to stop playing mercenaries. Nillson is not a reality he is a video game character.
I don't play FPS games ~;)
Centurion1
08-26-2009, 16:08
As any other respectable nation does
Most western nations use "mercenaries"
Pick any coup in africa, and there's a 99% chance that there were mercs involved. Mercs don't do "security jobs" in africa. They're hired to kill. Either by protecting those companies looking to exploit natural resources, a would-be dictator looking to overthrow an opponent or a dictator needing someone to kill his opponents, mercs will almost certainly be involved.
99% of all coups in africa are caused by "evil" mercenaries, i think not. you are just playing on the stereotype of a mercenary. a man i know. who works for blackwater was just doing a job in Kenya. Hear about any coups there? He was doing a training job for the Kenyan secret service. The vast majority these days are well-trained professionals that handle security.
As to the use of private contractors being a waste of money, i do not think so.
HoreTore
08-26-2009, 17:10
99% of all coups in africa are caused by "evil" mercenaries, i think not. you are just playing on the stereotype of a mercenary. a man i know. who works for blackwater was just doing a job in Kenya. Hear about any coups there? He was doing a training job for the Kenyan secret service. The vast majority these days are well-trained professionals that handle security.
Caused by? Now where did I say that? They are not caused by mercs, but they are most certainly involved in nearly all of them in one way or another. Ditto when it comes to exploiting resources.
But no, not every aspect of their business is bad. But the mafia also gave contributions to charity, ya know.
As to the use of private contractors being a waste of money, i do not think so.
So.... The US army is ineffective?
Centurion1
08-26-2009, 18:07
Since i am more than likely going to JOIN the US Army, i would imagine i believe they are effective.
Mercenaries do not operate as an arm of the united states army. They are quasi-military which means they are relegated to training, defense, protection, and intelligence. all things that may lead to fighting but are not directly fighting. This is the US of course.
HoreTore
08-26-2009, 18:54
Since i am more than likely going to JOIN the US Army, i would imagine i believe they are effective.
Mercenaries do not operate as an arm of the united states army. They are quasi-military which means they are relegated to training, defense, protection, and intelligence. all things that may lead to fighting but are not directly fighting. This is the US of course.
So.... Since you believe that Blackwater is worth the money you pay them to do those things, that must mean that you consider the US army itself inferior in these jobs, no?
Sheogorath
08-26-2009, 19:39
Hiring mercenaries seems a bit insulting to the regular armed forces. I mean, really, don't we have Delta Force to do our dirty work? What's wrong with them?
And if things get really bad, you just call in Jack Bauer. Really, people. No need for overpayed mercs at all.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
08-26-2009, 21:22
So.... Since you believe that Blackwater is worth the money you pay them to do those things, that must mean that you consider the US army itself inferior in these jobs, no?
To free up soldiers for the front line? If you don't have enough regular soldiers around to do the job?
HoreTore
08-26-2009, 21:38
To free up soldiers for the front line? If you don't have enough regular soldiers around to do the job?
Nope, since you could perfectly use the money spent on blackwater to hire the soldiers you need. Actually, you could just hire the very same soldiers for the US army instead of proxying them as mercs.
But a US army soldier is bound by the geneva conventions(nominally, at least...), whereas blackwater operates outside international law. You don't have the be a major conspiracy theorist to worry about that fact.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
08-26-2009, 21:46
Nope, since you could perfectly use the money spent on blackwater to hire the soldiers you need. Actually, you could just hire the very same soldiers for the US army instead of proxying them as mercs.
You have to hire the soldiers, train them, give them benefits and pensions, and so on. Why would one hire mercenaries in Rome: Total War? Because you didn't have to train the troops, they were a very quick fix. You don't have to promise them any benefits, either - their employer does that for you (which may well cut down bureaucratic workload and waste, but I'm speculating here).
But a US army soldier is bound by the geneva conventions(nominally, at least...), whereas blackwater operates outside international law.
An added convenience for the hiring power. Change the international laws then, if you like.
HoreTore
08-26-2009, 21:52
You have to hire the soldiers, train them, give them benefits and pensions, and so on. Why would one hire mercenaries in Rome: Total War? Because you didn't have to train the troops, they were a very quick fix. You don't have to promise them any benefits, either - their employer does that for you (which may well cut down bureaucratic workload and waste, but I'm speculating here).
Train the soldiers? Already done, Blackwater mercs are all ex-US army soldiers. You don't have to provide them any benefits? What? You think you just pay for their hourly wage, and then the boss of Blackwater is kind enough to provide the benefits? No, the world doesn't work that way. The benefits for the blackwater employees is included in the cost to hire them.
As for the bureaucracy thing, wrong again. Blackwater needs the same bureaucracy to handle things as the US army would need.
No, the only reason to hire Blackwater, would be...
An added convenience for the hiring power. Change the international laws then, if you like.
....And this comment kinda leaves me speechless.
Ibn-Khaldun
08-26-2009, 21:55
We can talk as much as we want but Mercenaries will always remain.
It, selling your skills as a warrior, is one of the oldest jobs in the world(after prostitution of course).
Evil_Maniac From Mars
08-26-2009, 23:19
Train the soldiers? Already done, Blackwater mercs are all ex-US army soldiers.
All of them?
You don't have to provide them any benefits? What? You think you just pay for their hourly wage, and then the boss of Blackwater is kind enough to provide the benefits?
Hardly. Of course you contribute to their benefits, but you don't have to pay for all of them. Other companies or countries hiring Blackwater personnel also contribute, meaning you may not have to pay as much in a roundabout fashion I suppose. Do Blackwater personnel also get things like funerals paid for by the US Army (directly, not through the hiring fee)?
As for the bureaucracy thing, wrong again. Blackwater needs the same bureaucracy to handle things as the US army would need.
You misread my post - my point was that the government would not need to have the bureaucracy to deal with it, making it Blackwater's problem.
Centurion1
08-26-2009, 23:37
Hore tore you are wrong on multiple accounts.
first-
They are not all ex us army. You do not understand the united states military system or you were making a general statement. There are ex marines, swat, navy, air force, commercial pilots......
There are also foreigners, sas from Britain, Mossad from Israel, locals from the middle east to translate and the like, South Africans, French Foreign Legionnaires, etc....
Second- The us army could just train more troops.
Incorrect the military is not allowed to have unlimited numbers of men. The marine corps has 175000 maximum troops for example. Also there is no draft and therefore a smaller pool of recruits.
Third-
They do free up troops for the front lines. and they have skills in high value protection that most regular soldiers do not have the training for.
fourth-
The united states government pays ZERO benefits to private contractors. They pay a lump sum (400 million i think for a few years in Iraq, which is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of training and hiring new soldiers) and the legitimate COMPANY Blackwater, INC., gives them bonuses, health care plans, etc. and a salary. They are not payed by the hour.
fifth and finally-
I would prefer you do put words in my mouth about an organization i want to join.
This site seems to be bugged somehow in every browser I tried(you can mark the text or copy it into wordpad or something), but here (http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2000/s229144.htm) is this old story about a mercenary who is actually useful to the population of his workplace.
Just to show that it also depends on the person I guess. Just because they are not bound to law does not have to mean they're bad people just like some soldiers rape and pillage despite it not being allowed.
I generally wouldn't say that mercenaries are a great idea for civilized countries though, the cost argument never made sense to me either, usually a mercenary gets pretty good pay and as HoreTore pointed out it's not like they don't have insurances, bureaucracy etc. like the army does, they might even pay a cleaning service to clean their offices while the army can just have some recruits do it for free. ~D
HoreTore
08-27-2009, 10:25
All of them?
"Of the 987 contractors Xe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide)(blackwater) provides, 744 are U.S. citizens."
Blackwater doesn't train their personnel. They hire ex-spec ops personnel.
Hardly. Of course you contribute to their benefits, but you don't have to pay for all of them. Other companies or countries hiring Blackwater personnel also contribute, meaning you may not have to pay as much in a roundabout fashion I suppose. Do Blackwater personnel also get things like funerals paid for by the US Army (directly, not through the hiring fee)?
"At least 90 percent of the company's revenue comes from government contracts, of which two-thirds are no-bid contracts."
You misread my post - my point was that the government would not need to have the bureaucracy to deal with it, making it Blackwater's problem.
But it would cost the exact same ammount, thus being an irrelevant point.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
08-27-2009, 14:13
"Of the 987 contractors Xe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide)(blackwater) provides, 744 are U.S. citizens."
Blackwater doesn't train their personnel. They hire ex-spec ops personnel.
So, firstly, not all of them are US citizens. Secondly, they're former military personnel, meaning they left for one reason or another and are probably not coming back.
"At least 90 percent of the company's revenue comes from government contracts, of which two-thirds are no-bid contracts."
Does it specify the United States government? Either way, it isn't 100%.
But it would cost the exact same ammount, thus being an irrelevant point.
It would cost Blackwater the same amount, not necessarily the taxpayer.
Centurion1
08-27-2009, 15:03
Hore tore.
They are not even all ex- spec ops. They are most definitely not all ex army.
rory_20_uk
08-27-2009, 15:31
Personally I think mercenaries are a great idea.
Get all nutters into a war zone in someone else's country. If they're registered in the UK all teh better as we can tax thecompany at least.
On a tangent I think that the Uk army should spend more effort on training friendly armies and less on getting shot at themselves as well as on the more specialist areas. We've not got the manpower for wars of attrition, so teh locals should fight for themselves.
~:smoking:
Tribesman
08-28-2009, 02:49
Personally I think mercenaries are a great idea.
Get all nutters into a war zone in someone else's country.
You missed the important piece out .
Put a wall around the place and let the scum rot there
If they're registered in the UK all teh better as we can tax thecompany at least.
You think too small, once they are stuck there sieze all their money in the now dormant accounts.
ICantSpellDawg
08-28-2009, 05:15
Mercs are great. Personally, I'm in to the whole fight and die for your loved ones approach, but if you are good at it you may as well benefit from your skills in the free market.
The pendulum might swing back one day and killing for sport and money could become fashionable again. We are human after all.
Mercs are great. Personally, I'm in to the whole fight and die for your loved ones approach, but if you are good at it you may as well benefit from your skills in the free market.
The pendulum might swing back one day and killing for sport and money could become fashionable again. We are human after all.
I agree with this. Being a good soldier/killer is a skill, might as well make money off of it if your excessively good at it. Plus countries dont have to record death of mercenaries, who knows how many blackwater troops died in Iraq. Id rather have them dead then U.S military.
Louis VI the Fat
08-28-2009, 22:08
You missed the important piece out .
Put a wall around the place and let the scum rot there
You think too small, once they are stuck there sieze all their money in the now dormant accounts.You can be so lucid and clear at times! :2thumbsup:
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