View Full Version : How to fight a pike phalanx without another phalanx? Help!!!
I'm sorry if this topic has been asked before, but how do you fight pike phalanxes without other phalanxes? I want to know what tactics you use.
I mean, hoplites on hold while other infantry or cavalry go by the back can beat pike phalanxes, but I wanted to use other infantry to beat it.
I'm playing Hayasdan, with is a very diferent faction I usualy play (KH for the most part), so I wanted to use diferent tactics. I have my house rules, not using phalanx and not relying in horse archers to much.
The phalanx mode has a annoying thing that, when attacked by the back, if they are not busy fighting in the front, they turn back and form a wall spears like nothing was there, what brings us back to the beginning. i think they shouldn't be able to do that, but that's hardcoded (I wish that in EBII they won't do that :beam:)
Please help.
Sorry for my english has it is very rusty, and sorry for repeating the word "phalanx" over and over.
Thanks in advance.
Andronikos
08-26-2009, 20:08
It is time consuming micromanagement, but use some fast skirmishers or HAs or skirmisher cav to lure one phalanx unit and while it "chases" your unit, backcharge it, when it turns to fight the chargers, charge from opposite direction. If you don't want to use many HAs, this could be an alternative.
kekailoa
08-26-2009, 20:16
Double it up. Use a cheap line of infantry to distract and pin (large numbers of infantry, too, so that they don't die too quick), and then flank the phalanxes with your javelin armed infantry or heavier AP infantry. To only fight phalanxes with infantry is tough, though, and you should really invest in some AP or heavier infantry with the Hai.
Mikhail Mengsk
08-26-2009, 20:32
Phalanxes are easy to counter. The AI doesn't protect them well, just oumanoeuver them, covering your moves with cavalry, and charge them on flanks and rear, avoiding every frontal impact. If they turn, SO DO YOU. Use your speed to attack every phalanx with 2 units, leaving other phalanxes uningaged but unable to support each other. In this way, when a phalanx turn, you can pull back a unit and attack phalanx's rear with the other one.
The key for me is to shatter their initial formation. Use cavalry and light troops to provoke the enemy: if you manoeuver well they will broke the formation to chase your disturbing units.
Break the enemy line into individual phalanxes. You said you're playing as Hayasdan - have some Sparabara (those levy Caucasian spearmen) on hand. Now, you don't need to order the "pinners" to attack the phalanx head-on. Maneuver carefully so that the final outcome is the phalanx coming to attack your levy pinners while they stand still in guard mode. Once the phalanx is engaged, charge from the rear with heavy troops. Your best bet is to recruit units with AP weapons (in your case, then, look for Cappadocian axemen and the like). Charge into the rear of the phalanx with your Kinsmen (family member bodyguards) and mop up.
Apázlinemjó
08-26-2009, 20:45
It depends, what kind of phalanx you are facing. For example if they are levies, then you don't need to pin them that much, well timed heavy cavalry charges from the rear can rout them pretty fast if they don't have morale bonuses (from nearby enemy general and such).
If they are medium ones, well pin them down and encircle the formation with cheap skirmishers and watch the show.
If they are elites, you will need a good unit which can withstand the pikes for enough time till your heavy units eat the elites slowly.
A good tactic against "rotating" phalanx formation is to withdraw with the heavy units if they "aggro'ed" the enemy and wait till the "pinners" take the aggro back.
Edit: Ah well, Frontline and Mikhail were faster than me, lol.
Thanks for the reply's. Yes that's what I usually do when fighting AS army's
. To only fight phalanxes with infantry is tough, though, and you should really invest in some AP or heavier infantry with the Hai.
Yes I know :sweatdrop:. . I just think, and this is just my opinion so don't burn me in the stake, the phalanx is a little over powered. They where meant to form a wall of spears and to pin down the enemy, and they do just that that, but they kill many men. I mean, how lethal could the sarissa be? I can be wrong, but I just can't imagine a spear that long, being very effective at killing.
The General
08-26-2009, 21:09
Phalanxes are easy to counter. The AI doesn't protect them well, just oumanoeuver them, covering your moves with cavalry, and charge them on flanks and rear, avoiding every frontal impact. If they turn, SO DO YOU. Use your speed to attack every phalanx with 2 units, leaving other phalanxes uningaged but unable to support each other. In this way, when a phalanx turn, you can pull back a unit and attack phalanx's rear with the other one.
The key for me is to shatter their initial formation. Use cavalry and light troops to provoke the enemy: if you manoeuver well they will broke the formation to chase your disturbing units.
QFT.
kekailoa
08-26-2009, 21:30
Thanks for the reply's. Yes that's what I usually do when fighting AS army's
Yes I know :sweatdrop:. . I just think, and this is just my opinion so don't burn me in the stake, the phalanx is a little over powered. They where meant to form a wall of spears and to pin down the enemy, and they do just that that, but they kill many men. I mean, how lethal could the sarissa be? I can be wrong, but I just can't imagine a spear that long, being very effective at killing.
The phalanx has been discussed as overpowered, and I don't know enough about the phalanx to refute or support either side of the argument. I actually find that the phalanxes are half-half, either sometimes really effective and slaughter hordes of men or merely kill ten percent of the enemy while just holding them in place. IMHO, they do have a little too much resistance to missiles from the front and sometimes from the rear.
Tenebrous
08-26-2009, 22:01
I have to ask though, how about when your outnumbered or even matched with full stacks?
I have yet to find a good strategy other than spreading them out, but it seems so unrealistic, and just taking way to much advantage of stupid ai, where a real army would never do so. Are there any good strategies for fighting a phalanx army when they outnumber you?
Apázlinemjó
08-26-2009, 23:07
I have to ask though, how about when your outnumbered or even matched with full stacks?
I have yet to find a good strategy other than spreading them out, but it seems so unrealistic, and just taking way to much advantage of stupid ai, where a real army would never do so. Are there any good strategies for fighting a phalanx army when they outnumber you?
Then micromanaging all of your units is vital. Break up the enemy's line with diversions and attack the little groups one by one with your remaining troops. Of course if you are outnumbered and outclassed with elites, then the only real option is to retreat, if you can.
As i put in my other posts about phalanxes (but not put into detail)....
what i love doing is using my skirmishers as my front line and sticking my high star general behind them
all the rest of my troops wheel around the back and
BAM!
that phalanx should be gone :2thumbsup:
then again theres that problem of ur skirmishers routing or your flankers being attacked etc...
its up to you on how to deal with that (everyone has their favorite way of flanking :yes:)
alls im saying is that pin and flank and u wanna pin them with units u can easily replace (yes very selfish and ruthless of me :croc:)
:smash:
happy phalanx smashing and very good luk on that campaign :2thumbsup:
ur gonna be like this half the time with AS :wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:
antisocialmunky
08-27-2009, 01:32
Form you phalanxes into short units instead of lines. Always combat other phalanxes with ones taht are of equal or greater quality. Bring some scary dudes.
satalexton
08-27-2009, 02:40
push through them with pike blocks, back up your blocks with swordsmen. push-of-pike's a scary thing for a good reason.
mountaingoat
08-27-2009, 03:49
any unit wider than the phalanx will wrap around them , form wide lines with inf.
I have to ask though, how about when your outnumbered or even matched with full stacks?
I have yet to find a good strategy other than spreading them out, but it seems so unrealistic, and just taking way to much advantage of stupid ai, where a real army would never do so. Are there any good strategies for fighting a phalanx army when they outnumber you?
Spread your lines as thin as possible and mass most of your infantry on the one flank, then once the lines engage send your flanking infantry around and roll up the enemy lines.
Cute Wolf
08-27-2009, 09:16
If you're hayasdan... you need horse archers... seriously.... to compliment your particularly crappy infantry, especially in your earlier period. :clown: (seriously, no eastern non hellenic factions get good native melee infantry)
But If you did restrict them, or not using them anyway... then hire some galatians, or tech up your MIC (and get reforms) to get acess to your swordsmen. Once you could manage that, pin the front of the phalanx with some expandable spearmen (such as Kavakaza Sparabara, or better still Hai Nizgarmantik), and use the swordsmen to hack their side, while if u can, get a cavalry charge on their back... that should be fine...
Or if u still in your poor petty kingdom state (ande not yet have neither money nor men to be thrown into certain death), then use the anything infantry to pin, and let your FM charge them from the back... Made sure that you deploy your men on one side of the map, so you got local numerical superriority, and capable to pin one (and kill) at a time....
in my Hai campaign I tried to replace my sparabara with armenian Spearmen as they are "better" against cav archers (better in terms of not ista dead) which come from the north and can hold against Seleukid phalanxes while the rest of your army(no matter if archers, slingers, skirmishers, HAs, Kinsmen or axemen kill them from behind, they all do it in their individual fashion and it all works very well(keep in mind armored phalanxes should be atttacked with either slingers axemen or Kinsmen)
It's not much of a great difference to the KH tactic expet that your pinners are weaker and your flankers are probably faster. ;) the more Hai like tactic would involve more HAs and not pinning the phalangites but to lure them with one unit and harras them with a second until the Phalanx is at quarter strength(or you run out of javelins :P ) charge in with all units availible. note that with your superior speed you can isolate phalanxes but still unite your army in order to swarm one of them to make them roit.
If outnumbered by phalanxes I would try to occupy two non elite phalanxes with one unit of Hoplites(or better) and break up one block after the other with my lance cavalry.
team_kramnik
08-27-2009, 11:39
My favourite method as Saka is to deploy a sufficently strong cavalry force infront of a phalanx. Wait for some braindead ai-manouvering. Charge.
Might be a bit unrealistic though. :embarassed:
As far as historical examples go the only battle I know when a phalanx based army was defeated by an non-hellenistic army with an evenly matched infantry-force is the Battle of Pydna. Here the Roman legions pinned the phalanx from the front, slowly falling back, while the elephants rolled up the phalanx from the right. Should be easy to recreate.
satalexton
08-27-2009, 11:43
The persian hoplites are actually quite good in holding troops, not to mention they can form a scratch flank/assault force with swords if need be..
Raygereio
08-27-2009, 12:18
In my last Hayasdan campaign, I found the most economic means of dealing with phalanx armies (winning with the least amount of casualties so that they can fight of the next stack the Arche sends after me) to be horse archers.
A single half stack of horse archers and skirmishers, combined with a couple of FM's to deliver a good solid punch when the enemy units are weakened from all the arrows sticking in their backsides should be able to fight anything infantry related the AI sends after you from the south.
Just remember that once you've shot all of your arrows; retreat. Don't stick arround and try repeatedly charging enemy units to make them rout; it may win you the battle, but it will cost you soldiers, something the Hayasdan can't afford in the early stages.
Now if you're past the early stages, have a decent infrastructure and can afford all the nice units the Hayasdan have to offer. Then Armenian Medium Infantry, Armenian Noble Infantry, Babylonian Heavy Spearmen and Persian Hoplites can all hold the line long enough without too many casualties for you to bash the phalanx's to oblivion with your heavy cavalry.
Ok thank you all for the reply's.
Pin and flank...well that's what I mostly do :beam: (should have mentioned that from the start). I post this just to know if there was any other tactic. As for horse archers, I might reconsider and use them in my campaign.
The phalanx has been discussed as overpowered, and I don't know enough about the phalanx to refute or support either side of the argument
Neither do I.
Here's what you do. you go back to the title screen, and start up a campaign for a civilised faction...
just kidding. phalangites are rather easy to rout from the rear or flank, especially when they're spread in a wider front like the AI usually does. use whatever heavy infantry units the Hai get (I haven't played as them, so I don't really know, but I've played as Saka and Pahlava) to get their attention while your cavalry charges them from the rear.
that tactic should work for any non-elite phalanx unit.
WinsingtonIII
08-27-2009, 17:54
I actually have yet to use any horse archers in my Hai campaign and beating phalanx armies hasn't been a huge problem. What you want are Caucasian spearmen set in guard mode to hold the phalanxes in place (I don't use Armenian spearmen, they are only marginally better and have less men). Backing them up are Caucasian archers, which may not be very effective against phalanxes but will decimate any other type of unit. For flankers, your best bet is your general's bodyguards. However, if you don't want to rely on cavalry very much, then use some cheap Eastern axe troops like Eastern axemen, or Cappadocian, Anatolian, or Hyrkranian hillmen. They work well as flankers against phalanxes because they're fast and have AP weapons. Just make sure they don't get hit by missile fire or cavalry charges. I know this tactic isn't too different from the KH tactic of pin and flank, but if you don't want to use horse archers you're pretty limited early on in terms of what you can do, because your infantry is all fairly bad.
EDIT: Sorry I just noticed you said you were already pinning and flanking. I haven't really tried anything else with the Hai, so I can't be much help for suggesting tactics other than that.
moonburn
08-28-2009, 04:13
in my last makedonia campaign i used 3 units of cavalary to continuosly charge them from 3 diferent directions
they where as silvershields and it took around 10 minutes they would after one of my cavalary units the other 2 where charging them they never stood a chance they eventually broke :book:
another tactic i use is slingers in their back (other missile troops should be equally usefull) but i normally use this one with the koinon their numbers being decimated at each volley is a site to be seen and a great use of skirmishers
you can also use the 3 surrounding system
skirmishing units on 3 diferent sides constantly harassing them in their back and flanks to decimate them
i prefer to use 3 units instead of the regular 2 cause those phalangites with the silver shields can move pretty fast and sometimes you get your cavalary screwed expecially if they ain´t trully that great to begin with
Finn MacCumhail
08-28-2009, 12:00
Hi!
If they outnumber you - break their morale. Try to kill the enemy general. It would be a good idea to have some archers and slingers. Archers uses fire and they break morale, slingers are fast moving and very effective against the armour.
So slingers and archers attack phalanx. Phalanx follow slingers, as they are slow and cant reach slingers they tired and losing morale.
The amount of enemy melt, they have no general, they scare of archers' fire.
When you have no arrows it is time to attack. ( If you have shock infantry like nacked celtic warriors it's great! ) Attack one of them with all your forces and the enemy will run. Others will see it and run too.
???
Profit!!! :beam:
Cambyses
08-28-2009, 12:41
You have to get a large local advantage in numbers. This is also a realistic tactic against slow moving armies! Just make sure you have a 4-1 or 5-1 advantage whenever you engage the phalanxes and you should be able to beat them, if you attack from all sides at once. If enemy reinforcement arrive withdraw and attack something else.
Basically what Cambyses said. A large local numbers advantage. this works even if you are out-numbered by the enemy. Someone said earlier that you should run away if you are out-numbered. You just need to send a few units to spread their forces out. Get them to follow you. Run behind them with a general and they might turn to face him. Thats when your front force hits them in their back. if they stay looking forward then slam them with the general. You can't really afford a war of attrition by pinning them for very long. Troops are hard to come by for the Hai early on.
Best also to not engage them for long. Unless you spend half the battle spreading them out and distracting them, then likely they are within about 10-15 seconds of each other. So slam them and get your army out of there. You will be running around with a whole bunch of 'Exhausted' dudes after a while but even so you can out maneuver them most of the time.
darius_d
08-28-2009, 14:48
My tactics agains huge phalanx wall in even or outnumbered:
Basically you do like in history - first you get rid of supporting infantry on the flanks to eliminate protection and then attack phalanx from rear and front, and they break.
For outnumbered battles you attack just one wing and keep other phalanx units busy with cheaper (yet still solid) infantry until your best infantry will do the job on the wing and rear.
This became a little "how to play as the Hai" guide type of thing :sweatdrop: :laugh4:
"Pin and flank" seems to be the most affective and most used around here. Thank you for the reply's
As for my Hai campaign, it crashed a week ago and I had to start again :shame: . I changed my house rules a bit and I having a good start. This is mostly because the AS is not paying to much attention to me, but it is not because they are weak, they took 2 regions from the ptolemoi, they are holding the pahlava in the east, even conquered the saka homeland. but still its been fun playing them :2thumbsup:
Keep on playing....
chenkai11
09-09-2009, 15:28
Bodyguards of Hai can crush those phalanx alone. Playing as Hayasdan must use cavalry and HA although it has some good infantry.
king of thracia
09-11-2009, 08:02
1. Refuse contact
2. Isolate phalanx
3. Pour javelins and arrows into the back
4. Simultaneous destruction
you cowards! pluck up some courage and smash those phalanx from the front! i swear, the hai bodyguards are so incredibly powerful. sometimes i feel like charging the phalanx from the front. when i do do it i take more damage obviously but its still quite heroic.
Weebeast
09-11-2009, 13:10
I have to ask though, how about when your outnumbered or even matched with full stacks?
I don't deploy my men into one line trying to match their length and look all tough. Instead I bunch up my units and I pour them to one of their wings and hope that side routs before the other side can get to me. I rarely see them do it but if they turn off phalanx mode to flank me then half of my job is done. EDIT: Darius beat me to it.
I have yet to find a good strategy other than spreading them out, but it seems so unrealistic, and just taking way to much advantage of stupid ai, where a real army would never do so. Are there any good strategies for fighting a phalanx army when they outnumber you?
You sure? If you were a general in real life and I pepper you with arrows, rocks and javelins (given that they hurt you), you're not gonna detach some troops to chase me? I can do it all day and while you stay still I send some of my men to burn your town, loot and steal your women.
Knight of Ne
09-11-2009, 13:47
you cowards! pluck up some courage and smash those phalanx from the front! i swear, the hai bodyguards are so incredibly powerful. sometimes i feel like charging the phalanx from the front. when i do do it i take more damage obviously but its still quite heroic.
I tend to find that this strategy, although heroic, tends to get my FM's killed very quickly:thumbsdown:. (And sods law dictates that it will be your good FM's that bite the dust.)
I tend to find that fast moving infantry are good for fighting phalanxes, if you can get a phalanx to chase them you can turn a phalanx and expose those juicy rears to cavalry or archers. Albeit this does depend on getting the stupid ai to chase you.
When outnumbered i try to outmanouvre the phalanx and engage all but the phalanxes, which (if all goes well) will leave the phalanxes with no support and vulnerable to flank and rear charges.
p.s. None of these tactics are garenteed to work well, if at all sometimes.
Knight of Ne
My method is to engage them to the front with some kind of close combat infantry, then get some skirmishers round behind the phalanx and put them on 'fire at will'. Javelin fire from behind seems to break phalanxes far better than charges do (As historically inaccurate as that is). Phalanxes are pretty much invulnerable to javelins from the front, but from the back they're very vulnerable. (In reality they should be vulnerable to any kind of attack to their rear or flank but in RTW they're not - they were great at fighting enemy to their front as long as they had flat ground that allowed them to maintain formation, but if they were hit in the flank or rear or their formation was broken up by rough ground they collapsed
Alternatively put some foot or mounted skirmishers (not on fire at will) in front of them and more behind them. Whenever the phalanx turns towards one, hit them in the back with javelins with the other.
Always use javelins - arrows and sling shot dont seem nearly as effective even from behind the phalanx.
well, I have many a solution, depending on the situation.
red letters= enemy. black is me :clown:
M=missile C=cavalry L=line troops
1-equal sized armies, head on:
a)
--------------------P P P P P P
----------------------CC MMM L L L L L L MMM CC
b)
---------------------------------------CCCC
------------------MMMP P P P P PMMM
----------------------------------L L L L L L (they attack obliquely)
examples I used it in: battle of Cynocephalae (RTW vanilla), battle of cannae (272 BC, in EB)
2-I'm outnumbered
a)
---------------------------- P P P P P P P P P P
------------------------------CC MMM L L L L L L MMM CC (retreat)
b)
-------------------------LPL---------p------p
------------------------MM---------P--------MM--P----P-------P
--------------------------LL---P---[LL]-----P----------------P
bring my men among them and break them up piecemeal, thereby allowing me to achieve local superiority.
c-if I outnumber them: I just send some men at them in a human tidal wave, and while they re being cut down, just use the rest of the men to hit the phalanx in the rear:clown:
Ah but what do you do if the enemy army has phalangites, archers/slingers and cavalry?
(well i suppose the obvious answer is you try to use light cavalry to draw out their cavalry and destroy them, then try to separate the archers/slingers from the phalanxes and wipe them out, then get round the phalanxes' backs/sides and hit them with javelins, slingshot etc)
Ah but what do you do if the enemy army has phalangites, archers/slingers and cavalry?
(well i suppose the obvious answer is you try to use light cavalry to draw out their cavalry and destroy them, then try to separate the archers/slingers from the phalanxes and wipe them out, then get round the phalanxes' backs/sides and hit them with javelins, slingshot etc)
they're no problem-I usually neutralize those in no time.
then I apply the tactics described.
i find light cavalry very effective against other cavalry for some reason. i usually have equal numbers of light and heavy cavalry in my army. infantry helps alot but i prefer cavalry only armies for the greater mobility on the battlefield.
Flavius_Belisarius
09-13-2009, 11:23
I only can agree. If used correctly lighter cavalry can be superior against heavy cavalry. I manged to defeat cataphracts or hetairo with quite light and medium cavalry. The heavy one isn't able to catch them so they get exhausted and widespread and you can pick one and one heavy cavalry regmint with concentrated charges.
I only can agree. If used correctly lighter cavalry can be superior against heavy cavalry. I manged to defeat cataphracts or hetairo with quite light and medium cavalry. The heavy one isn't able to catch them so they get exhausted and widespread and you can pick one and one heavy cavalry regmint with concentrated charges.
that's how I fight in IBFD III.
lakhmids have a wide selection of light and medium cavalry indeed:yes:
I have to ask though, how about when your outnumbered or even matched with full stacks?
I have yet to find a good strategy other than spreading them out, but it seems so unrealistic, and just taking way to much advantage of stupid ai, where a real army would never do so. Are there any good strategies for fighting a phalanx army when they outnumber you?
I remember during the tourney, people would just avoid the phalanx, and aim for your flanks. Your phalanxes would be useless. They only engaged your phalanx with their own phalanx, if they had it.
Titus Marcellus Scato
03-22-2010, 13:53
I apply the same basic strategy to all my battles.
Priority 1: Kill enemy cavalry.
Priority 2: Kill enemy missile troops.
Priority 3: Kill enemy heavy infantry.
Isolate the phalangites, then kill them (after you've killed everything else.)
Macilrille
03-22-2010, 13:55
Yeps, notice that this thread deals mostly with online MP battles. But the principle is the same Vs the AI. Probably easier as the opponent has a brain...
Dutchhoplite
03-22-2010, 14:15
But how would you fight a allmost full stack of pikes formed up in a double line and partially hidden by a treeline??
Like this:
ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
I faced (me being the attacking side) them with a KH army army of some pike, hoplites, some light troops and limited cavalry.
Titus Marcellus Scato
03-22-2010, 14:31
As the attacker or as the defender?
As KH, I'd hesitate to attack a full (Macedonian?) stack like that unless I had a full stack myself. 18 units of phalanxes is a lot - that's 4320 men on Huge unit size. Not to be taken lightly by 'little' KH.
As the defender, it's easier - stand on a hill and let them tire themselves out reaching your position before outflanking them.
Dutchhoplite
03-22-2010, 14:55
Well, in units we were about even so i decided to take them on but i did'nt expect to stumble across a Seleucid stack consisting only of pikes :D
Andy1984
03-22-2010, 15:10
As a defender, my Romans seem to be mostly capable to frontally charge and break the Epeirote falanxes. (Leves behind the principes, preferably partially hidden.) Try to aim for a massed route.
Elite phalanx units, and especially defending elite phalanx units, are a different matter however.
anubis88
03-22-2010, 15:58
Heh, the ptolies in my campaing have the abnoxious habit of puting phalanxes in phalanxes if you understand what i'm saying.... They look like one phalanx, but actually there are 2 of them using the same area one would. Those phalanxes are pretty tough to beat :D; i dunno if it would work if the human player applied the same strategy
Macilrille
03-22-2010, 16:03
It does, it was ruled a cheat in the online tournament.
Intranetusa
03-22-2010, 17:08
The defense skill of most sarissa phalanx units is about as good as your basic levy. When engaged in close quarter combat, sarissa units gets slaughtered pretty fast.
Marcus Darkstar
03-22-2010, 18:18
I dunno about others but I usually isolate, pin the phalanx with a group of heavy infantry in the front and use reserve troops to flank them so their decimated. Before hand if i have horse missile units i usually distrubt their formation with them or at least weaken them before pinning them down.
Facing Phalanx stacks with no supporting units is absurdly easy like it should be. I've never encountered a Phalax that has reversed its phalanx if its been engaded in the front already. And unless their heavily armored elite troops with excellent moral flanking them typically decimates them (otherwise its a meat grinder with the elites fighting to the death or when they get reduced to 3-1 units). I've had medium phalanx groups route using the tactic when there were still 100+ men in the group.
Then again my favorite tactic if I have Elephants is charging them into the flanks of Phalanxes when their already pinned down in the front... Nothing can withstand it usually takes out half the phalanx then and there...
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