Debate: - Does God hate women? [Archive]

InsaneApache

09-01-2009, 10:24

The hypocrisy of the left.....

"Now they say it is racist to intervene. They're so frightened of being called an Islamophobe, they will defend the right of men to force women to be shackled. They smugly declare that ‘we haven't got the right to impose our values on another culture' and think themselves liberal when they do it."

http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/2041/full

Although I'm not even close to Cohen politically I agree 100% with what he says in his article. That Germaine Greer of all people should advocate genital multilation is eye popping. As Louis said the last time there was a humanism/gender v culteralism debate, race trumps gender hands down everytime.

To my mind it's racism. That it eminates from the left is astounding.

Fragony

09-01-2009, 10:37

Yeah lefties, there was a time they had ideals but now they have respect. BE NICE TO TEH ANIMALS, oh you slaughter animals by slitting their throats without sedation how very exotic. NO SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION, oh you have have your wife chained to the radiator, that just screams for intercultural dialogue so we can learn from eachother. GAY RIGHTS, oh you think that gays should be thrown from a flat head-first, ah well they don't have a problem with going down anyways. Tea? I wonder if it doesn't strike them as kinda odd but we will never know because of the suffocating social control within the multicultural left.

edit: homegrown madness, the editor of the gay-courant's reputatiom was destroyed by the left because he published some texts from the one, Tariq Ramadan, hero of the left, that aren't quite in line with what he tells them when they are slipping from their chair with desire, so it must have been a false translation when he said that women must keep their eyes peeled to the concrete at all times. Unlike the multipriest who made the decision that it was a poor translation I speak french and it was not a bad translation it was spot on. But the decision has been made, it is a bad translation and I can't handle the truth. Sooooooo confused these bees.

Askthepizzaguy

09-01-2009, 10:51

If I remember correctly, the people imposing their divinely-inspired will upon these poor women are hardly left-wing tree huggers.

I disagree with the presentation here of liberals being blamed for the behavior of non-liberals. Should they rise up as one and start shooting people for not subscribing to their liberal beliefs? And if so, should that apply in the United States as well?

I think that this is politicizing an issue that shouldn't be partisan at all, which is the cause of human rights and the rights of women. It's unbecoming to blame liberals or left-wingers for the crimes of fundamentalists... it just makes zero sense.

Next: Blaming pacifists for wars. After all, if you don't support the troops, you must therefore be the enemy.

Fragony

09-01-2009, 10:58

If I remember correctly, the people imposing their divinely-inspired will upon these poor women are hardly left-wing tree huggers.

The ones absolutely adoring such practises are left-wing tree huggers. I do not know how it makes sense, but that is how it is. It's simple, multiculturalism is a religion, and religion and reason doesn't coexist very well.

Askthepizzaguy

09-01-2009, 11:07

The ones absolutely adoring such practises are left-wing tree huggers. I do not know how it makes sense, but that is how it is. It's simple, multiculturalism is a religion, and religion and reason doesn't coexist very well.

If, by absolutely adoring, you mean they are now wearing burqas and imposing sharia law upon their people, then yes, left-wingers are absolutely supportive of fundamentalist Islamic theocracy.

:dizzy2:

This is nothing but a giant smear. You might as well suggest that left-wingers are also supportive of the North Korean regime because there's no call to declare war on North Korea. Since when did not wanting to forcibly push one's beliefs on someone else equate with total fanboy support of their beliefs?

There's nothing to this. It is simply rhetoric designed to divide us, on an issue that we would otherwise agree upon. Treating women like that is offensive to me, as it is to you. But unless you're flying over to Saudi Arabia with a gang from Blackwater in order to liberate the women there, you're no more righteous than I on this issue.

I request that some perspective is added to this equation. It is not the fault of multiculturalists that other cultures exist. It's a terribly bad leap of logic to accuse an entire political ideology of supporting something which is its exact opposite, merely because no war has been declared between them.

InsaneApache

09-01-2009, 11:19

Askthepizzaguy

09-01-2009, 11:28

I'm sorry but it's hypocrisy of the highest magnitude. If 'celebrating diversity' means condoning the rape, multilation, murder and subjegation of women just because they follow a certain religion and that's OK, then they can stick thier multiculturism where the sun don't shine.

It shouldn't be a party politcal issue but sadly it is.

If you're accusing left-wingers of condoning rape, mutilation, murder, and subjugation of women, then you haven't met a left-winger before.

If you hold up one man as an example of what all left-wingers believe, then you're subscribing to a logical fallacy. Whatever person you identify as a left-winger who supports the rape and murder of women, is a moron, and his beliefs are a result of him being a moron, rather than being a left-winger.

The other day I mentioned that Glenn Beck was an idiot who spoke for himself, not all right-wingers. Can you do me the same courtesy?

Fragony

09-01-2009, 11:35

If, by absolutely adoring

Well I don't know if they actually absolutely adore it, who knows what goes on in their heads, but reality shows that they will throw themselves before any initiative towards equal treatment for all. I like to call it a PPD, a progressive personality disorder. I hope that we can help them one day.

InsaneApache

09-01-2009, 11:39

I'm getting the impression I didn't read the same article as yourself. It's not the opinion of one man. He exposes the schziod mindset of the liberal left.

I agree that one person shouldn't be used to tar a whole belief system. The trouble is it's endemic in the UK today. From the government to sixth form debating societies.

Making excuses for barbarism is just that. Making excuses.

Askthepizzaguy

09-01-2009, 11:42

Well I don't know if they actually absolutely adore it, who knows what goes on in their heads, but reality shows that they will throw themselves before any initiative towards equal treatment for all. I like to call it a PPD, a progressive personality disorder. I hope that we can help them one day.

Ugh.

You know, I don't agree with what you're saying, but there's nothing I can do about it except speak out. That's not the same as condoning your statements.

Left-wingers advocate equal treatment of women and high standards of human rights, even towards those who would not treat us so kindly in return. That left-wingers suggest that perhaps we tolerate moderate Islam, other styles of dress, and promote peace and understanding, does not equate to supporting totalitarian regimes or brutality towards women.

That is what I am saying, and it is a fact. There's a difference between condoning torture and rape, and promoting tolerance of Islam. In free countries like France, Britain, and the United States, Muslim women are protected by law and voluntarily choose to wear a burqa. That is their right. The left (in the great majority, I'd suspect) is NOT supportive of fundamentalist Islamic theocracy, and I resent the implication, because it's just not true.

The left also does not condone cannibalism either. Can we move on? This is ridiculous and beneath the dignity of us all, as rational people.

Askthepizzaguy

09-01-2009, 11:44

I'm getting the impression I didn't read the same article as yourself. It's not the opinion of one man. He exposes the schziod mindset of the liberal left.

I did not realize he was anointed emperor of the liberal left.

I agree that one person shouldn't be used to tar a whole belief system.

That's exactly what is happening here.

The trouble is it's endemic in the UK today. From the government to sixth form debating societies. Making excuses for barbarism is just that. Making excuses.

Ok, so what do you propose? We invade Saudi Arabia with guns blazing? Other than placing the blame entirely on the left, what constructive ideas do you have to combat the problem?

This is NOT a left versus right issue. I'm with you that the treatment of women in other societies is horrible. I resent the left being blamed for it. That's scapegoating.

Fragony

09-01-2009, 11:47

Left-wingers advocate equal treatment of women

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Maybe in a day that never was, or very very long ago, the left will do everything for the ultra-orthodox, and throw a gay parade each year so they can keep pretending and moan a bit about the lack of women in key positions. The rest of the year they leave a slippery trail all the way to the mosk.

Adrian II

09-01-2009, 11:51

edit: homegrown madness, the editor of the gay-courant's reputatiom was destroyed by the left because he published some texts from the one, Tariq Ramadan, hero of the left, that aren't quite in line with what he tells them [..]
:laugh4:
What have you been smoking now? Henk Krol is in charge of his paper as always and he has been totally vindicated. It's Tariq Ramadan who has been fired, both by the city of Rotterdam and by the Erasmus university. And it's the reputation of the alderman who hired Ramadan that has been totally destroyed; even his own party now wants him to step down.

It must be bliss to live in your little cocoon and make things up without bothering with the outside world. Oh teh lefty threat, oh teh fifth column, oh teh decline of liberty.

Askthepizzaguy

09-01-2009, 11:52

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Maybe in a day that never was, or very very long ago, the left will do everything for the ultra-orthodox, and throw a gay parade each year so they can keep pretending and moan a bit about the lack of women in key positions. The rest of the year they leave a slippery trail all the way to the mosk.

I'll take this as a concession of all your points. There's no debate happening here, merely a statement of your opinions of the left, which you're entitled to have, but are not accurate reflections of the left.

Fragony

09-01-2009, 11:56

I'll take this as a concession of all your points. There's no debate happening here, merely a statement of your opinions of the left, which you're entitled to have, but are not accurate reflections of the left.

And the opinion of the article and drumroll........ topic!

"Now they say it is racist to intervene. They're so frightened of being called an Islamophobe, they will defend the right of men to force women to be shackled. They smugly declare that ‘we haven't got the right to impose our values on another culture' and think themselves liberal when they do it."

See what's happening? They are afraid of excommunication, there can be no doubt. PPD.

What have you been smoking now? Henk Krol is in charge of his paper as always and he has been totally vindicated. It's Tariq Ramadan who has been fired, both by the city of Rotterdam and by the Erasmus university. And it's the reputation of the alderman who hired Ramadan that has been totally destroyed; even his own party now wants him to step down.

Didn't get away with that one hehe, much to my amusement. This was a little too much truth for altering, bbut boy did they try, and boy did they try hard.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-01-2009, 12:01

I'm sorry but it's hypocrisy of the highest magnitude. If 'celebrating diversity' means condoning the rape, multilation, murder and subjegation of women just because they follow a certain religion and that's OK, then they can stick thier multiculturism where the sun don't shine.

It shouldn't be a party politcal issue but sadly it is.

I'm getting the impression I didn't read the same article as yourself. It's not the opinion of one man. He exposes the schziod mindset of the liberal left.

I agree that one person shouldn't be used to tar a whole belief system. The trouble is it's endemic in the UK today. From the government to sixth form debating societies.

Making excuses for barbarism is just that. Making excuses.

I have to agree completely.

I said this once before:

I don't believe in freedom of religion, I believe in tollerance and forgiveness, because that is what my religion teaches.

To that I will add:

I do not believe in cultural equality, I believe in the respect for other cultures, because that is what my culture teaches.

The left have spent so much time handwringing over the past they have now lost all moral courage.

Meneldil

09-01-2009, 12:02

A while ago, the left ideal was to promote values such as freedom, equality, human-rights, education, dignity, emancipation. Doing so sometimes could only be done through harsh measures, but in the end, it was for a 'greater-good' (whether you believe in it or not, and whether it was a possible aim or not).

Now, most of the left-wing is just about not giving a crap about anything in order to gather votes from everybody. Political liberalism got overwhelmed by economical liberalism, and the whole Enlightenment idea has been replaced by cultural laissez-faire.

I blame 1968.

Askthepizzaguy

09-01-2009, 12:02

And the opinion of the article and drumroll........ topic!

Yes, and the opinion in the article is that left-wingers (as a whole, presumably, but I'll even give the author "majority" for the sake of argument) support and condone the abuse of women, rape, and murder.

It's so patently false and absurd that it defies description.

"Now they say it is racist to intervene. They're so frightened of being called an Islamophobe, they will defend the right of men to force women to be shackled. They smugly declare that ‘we haven't got the right to impose our values on another culture' and think themselves liberal when they do it."

See what's happening? They are afraid of excommunication, there can be no doubt. PPD.

Who is "they"? I want names. And more than just one name. Let's name and shame these specific people, rather than liberalism as a whole.

Fragony

09-01-2009, 12:08

Yes, and the opinion in the article is that left-wingers (as a whole, presumably, but I'll even give the author "majority" for the sake of argument) support and condone the abuse of women, rape, and murder.

It's so patently false and absurd that it defies description.

Who is "they"? I want names. And more than just one name. Let's name and shame these specific people, rather than liberalism as a whole.

Can't just decide that something is patently false and absurd, we aren't setting out the party line we are discussing the reality of leftists supporting the abuse of women. So, why do you think that leftists support the abuse of women? Are they confused? Are they scared?

Askthepizzaguy

09-01-2009, 12:09

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-01-2009, 12:14

I can see that the direction this discussion is going in is not debate, but opining.

As such, I will leave the editorials to the pundits and bow out, my arguments unrefuted and largely ignored, as is my call for civility and an end to pointless and baseless partisanship. Good day, gentlemen, enjoy your smearing.

Oh, get off your high horse.

The argument is simple: In countries like Iran women are abused because of religious opinion. A hundred years ago this would have been intollerable, today it is excused as "cultural difference".

Fragony

09-01-2009, 12:20

I can see that the direction this discussion is going in is not debate, but opining.

As such, I will leave the editorials to the pundits and bow out, my arguments unrefuted and largely ignored, as is my call for civility and an end to pointless and baseless partisanship. Good day, gentlemen, enjoy your smearing.

'it isn't true' is not an argument it's not even an opinion, it's a statement.

it isn't true because -> argument

presto

InsaneApache

09-01-2009, 12:33

Who is "they"? I want names. And more than just one name. Let's name and shame these specific people, rather than liberalism as a whole.

I already mentioned Germaine Greer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaine_Greer). The article goes on to mention more but then you'd know that if you'd read it. :juggle2:

From the article....

But look on the bright side for too long, and you will be blinded by the sun. For all the qualifications, the stubborn fact remains that mainstream opinion does not consider the oppression of women a pressing concern when it is done in the name of culture or religion, particularly in the name of once-subordinate cultures and religions. The misogyny they generate does not move hearts or stir passions. Governments that stifle half their populations do not face boycotts or demonstrations outside their embassies, motions of condemnation at international conferences or opprobrium in everyday political discourse.

Sasaki Kojiro

09-01-2009, 12:35

If you're accusing left-wingers of condoning rape, mutilation, murder, and subjugation of women,

No, I think he was accusing you. You specifically.

The hypocrisy of the left.....

People are hypocritical by nature.

I agree on the whole, the obligation to respect another culture ceases to exist when they don't respect their own citizens. It's not easy to change culture though.

Tribesman

09-01-2009, 12:42

it isn't true because ....fragony wrote it.:2thumbsup:

Oh teh lefty threat, oh teh fifth column, oh teh decline of liberty.
Come on Adrian , you missed out oh teh Muslims, oh teh immigrants and oh teh poofs.

As for the article , what a pile of crap , I doubt I have seen so many outright lies presented in a single article before , it really is an astounding feat that. Well done Cohen.

Adrian II

09-01-2009, 12:50

'it isn't true' is not an argument it's not even an opinion, it's a statement.

it isn't true because -> argument

prestoMost of you, including the OP, can't even read. It's actually a very good article that says something completely different from what the OP was trying to insinuate in his usual biased style. Here is what it says:

There is a danger of generalising from the particular fury the media have directed at Benson and Stangroom. So I should say that I do not need to be told that religion comes in many forms, not all of them onerous. I accept unreservedly that religion can be, as Marx said, "the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions". Clearly, many liberal-minded people would not have joined the critics in shouting down Benson and Stangroom; they would have whole-heartedly agreed that the repression of women must be opposed in all circumstances. Excellent journalists at the BBC, Independent, Guardian, Observer and Sunday Times produce powerful reports about female genital mutilation and "honour killings" based on the work of NGOs such as Human Rights Watch or the Centre for Social Cohesion.

But look on the bright side for too long, and you will be blinded by the sun. For all the qualifications, the stubborn fact remains that mainstream opinion does not consider the oppression of women a pressing concern when it is done in the name of culture or religion, particularly in the name of once-subordinate cultures and religions. The misogyny they generate does not move hearts or stir passions. Governments that stifle half their populations do not face boycotts or demonstrations outside their embassies, motions of condemnation at international conferences or opprobrium in everyday political discourse.
This reflects my own experience. I would even go further and state that it is mostly Christians who actively seek accomodation with (radical) islam. On the international scene we have witnessed the cooperation of reborn American Republicans, the Pope and islamic regimes in order to curb sex education and prevent the use of contraceptives. In the UK there is the Church of England that seeks to align itself with muslim organisations and opinions constantly. In my own country orthodox muslims and christians are protesting in unison against 'sexually provocative' advertisements (meaning your average underwear ad). Most of all however, I laugh at the Pavlovian drooling displayed in several posts above. It isn't reasoning, it's mere posturing - exactly as the Pizzaman says.

Fragony

09-01-2009, 12:53

.Come on Adrian , you missed out oh teh Muslims, oh teh immigrants and oh teh poofs.

Your mind is playing ticks on you Tribes, making you see things that aren't there :yes:

Most of you, including the OP, can't even read

Didn't even try, no need because it's England

Vladimir

09-01-2009, 12:55

What a wasted topic. The question begs an interesting discussion yet the first post throws it away by making it a partisan issue. If you look for hypocrisy you'll find it everywhere.

:shrug:

Adrian II

09-01-2009, 12:58

Your mind is playing ticks on you Tribes, making you see things that aren't there :yes:Oh ticks, schticks. Where is your evidence that the reputation of Henk Krol (chief editor of our largest gay magazine who succesfully tackled Ramadan over his homophobia) has been 'destroyed'? He has been vindicated on all sides, for freak's sake. Will you be lying through your teeth whenever it serves the great 'cause'?

Tribesman

09-01-2009, 13:09

Your mind is playing ticks on you Tribes, making you see things that aren't there

Would you like a selection of quotes from yourself again frag?
Go on it would be funny to have you moaning again that people quoting your own words is just so unfair on you and makes you look silly.

Fragony

09-01-2009, 13:18

Oh ticks, schticks. Where is your evidence that the reputation of Henk Krol (chief editor of our largest gay magazine who succesfully tackled Ramadan over his homophobia) has been 'destroyed'? He has been vindicated on all sides, for freak's sake. Will you be lying through your teeth whenever it serves the great 'cause'?

que wut, what does that have to do with this; you missed out oh teh Muslims, oh teh immigrants and oh teh poofs.

And the Ramadan fail is quite telling, a fascinating study in PC-scaling. Henk Krol publishes his texts, the fanboys claim mallign intend and claim that it was wrongly translated, followed with if you don't agree you are ill and need an injection. Lying for the liar, obviously the Islam is on the highest PC-scale, WAY above women and gays. And if any carrotmunching head rolls because of this, I hereby sincerely promise to vote for the PVDA next election. Absolutely unthinkbale.

you missed out oh teh Muslims, oh teh immigrants and oh teh poofs.

HA! If you put it like that it looks almost as if he was fired because he said women shopuld have there eyes peeled at the concrete at all times, which is of course rubbish, he was fired for woring for a Iranian tv-station, otherwise he was still building bridgeslol

Adrian II

09-01-2009, 13:29

In countries like Iran women are abused because of religious opinion. A hundred years ago this would have been intollerable, today it is excused as "cultural difference".Where? By whom? Can you mention any left-wing party leader or ideologue who excuses the abuse of women in Iran as mere 'cultural difference'?

The case of Germaine Greer is interesting in that it represents precisely the limits of liberal tolerance. Greer's profoundly silly book The Whole Woman in which she defends female circumcision and rejects pap smears, among lots more nonsense, has exasperated reviewers and (previous) followers, to the point where they now realise that her books never were very good anyway and that even The Female Eunuch, her magnum opus, was in hindsight seriously flawed and essentially hysterical. In other words, she's finished and she has only herself to blame.

Adrian II

09-01-2009, 14:11

And the Ramadan fail is quite telling, a fascinating study in PC-scaling. Henk Krol publishes his texts, the fanboys claim mallign intend and claim that it was wrongly translated, followed with if you don't agree you are ill and need an injection.Care to tell us again who was fired, tarred and feathered and chased out of the country? Ramadan? Or Krol?

Fragony

09-01-2009, 14:16

Care to tell us again who was fired, tarred and feathered and chased out of the country? Ramadan? Or Krol?

Did I miss something and was Ramadan suddenly fired because of his texts, or am I still on this world and is he still fired for working for the Iranian TV-network?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-01-2009, 14:21

Where? By whom? Can you mention any left-wing party leader or ideologue who excuses the abuse of women in Iran as mere 'cultural difference'?

The case of Germaine Greer is interesting in that it represents precisely the limits of liberal tolerance. Greer's profoundly silly book The Whole Woman in which she defends female circumcision and rejects pap smears, among lots more nonsense, has exasperated reviewers and (previous) followers, to the point where they now realise that her books never were very good anyway and that even The Female Eunuch, her magnum opus, was in hindsight seriously flawed and essentially hysterical. In other words, she's finished and she has only herself to blame.

Try the pundits in Britain. Cohen's position is emblematic of a feeling of exasperation here, one example being the Somali girl who cut another girl with a razor and the Judge said the victim was partly to blame because, "In Somalia..."

Another example would be the Imans saying things like, "Islam is not compatable with democracy", who are advising the government on "Muslim Relations".

Don Corleone

09-01-2009, 14:28

This whole discussion thus far reminds me of the old American political trick of "Senator, when did you stop beating your wife..." :dizzy2:

I find myself in amazement agreeing with Adrian and Pizzaguy over IA & Fragony, I think we would all agree I'm overwhlemingly more likely to line up the other way...

But most especially, I have to agree with Adrian. I don't read the article as an indictment of the political left, per se. I see it more as an indictment of Western society in general, and the author makes the point of "Even from those we would expect the loudest outcy, barely a whimper".

Sadly, at the end of the day, Louis is right. But not just about the Left, about us as a society in general. Women's issues always receive lip service, but when it comes time to make a hard choice, they seem to be relegated to the back of the bus. I wonder if Rosa Parks would be as celebrated if she were riding in the front on behalf of women, not blacks.

I think all sides tolerate too much of other cultures in this regard. Somewhere along the way, we all received the same message, that to speak out against the behaviors of a culture that has cultural norms that offend yours is bigotry, and the only civilized position to take is none at all.

Baloney. Hijabs? The women themselves prefer to wear them (more so when they're in enclaves in the West then when they're in Islamic lands in the first place). So, let them wear them.

Female circumcison? I think we have to stand up as a society and say No. Not now, not ever. We abhor this practice and will not tolerate it. Virtue is all about balance, and somehow, we've lost our balance on society.

So, IA, Frag.... I don't disagree with your ire, just the target of it. Cast a wider net... it's to all of our shame that girls in West London are being circumcised at age 12, or 10 year old girls in Arizona are being raped and their fathers are telling police not to investegate, that she deserved it. :shame:

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-01-2009, 14:44

Perhaps, Don, your confusion stems because you don't realise IA and Frag see their contries as being ruled by, and having the collective morality dictated by, the Left.

I do not condone the things you mention, and I would not allow them if I were in government. However, with views like that you get branded a racist and can't get elected.

Fragony

09-01-2009, 14:45

So, IA, Frag.... I don't disagree with your ire, just the target of it. Cast a wider net... it's to all of our shame that girls in West London are being circumcised at age 12, or 10 year old girls in Arizona are being raped and their fathers are telling police not to investegate, that she deserved it. :shame:

But I have only one target, and that target is the multicultural left. This cultural relativism is nothing but pure betrayal to me, western culture is superior to other cultures and we should stand for our values, politicians who are too afraid to speak out against this abuse 'out of respect' are nothing but my mortal enemies.

J'accuse

Perhaps, Don, your confusion stems because you don't realise IA and Frag see their contries as being ruled by, and having the collective morality dictated by, the Left.

This is a very useful comment, yes.

Would you like a selection of quotes from yourself again frag?

Since it would be me having a beer while you are wasting your time, fine. Or do you keep a record. Oh no that can't be it you see them in threads where they aren't, where they wouldn't add anything! Were they that bad that they are forever burned on you ratina? Seeing them everywhere you go? Or just in threads.

Adrian II

09-01-2009, 15:17

Did I miss something and was Ramadan suddenly fired because of his texts, or am I still on this world and is he still fired for working for the Iranian TV-network?He has been fired for a host of reasons: his theology, his tapes, his lack of scientific credibility, his duplicity, his work for Iranian tv. The mayor of Rotterdam, Achmed Atoutaleb, has been wanting to get rid of Ramadan for over a year...

Adrian II

09-01-2009, 15:22

[..] one example being the Somali girl who cut another girl with a razor and the Judge said the victim was partly to blame because, "In Somalia..." Another example would be the Imans saying things like, "Islam is not compatable with democracy".Wow, a judge and a couple imams. Left-wingers to a tee, eh?

Come on, deliver. Gimme some left-wingers who condone Iranian abuse of women because it's a different culture. That's what you said, remember? I want names. Even 1 name would at least lend some credibility to you claim, though one left-winger doesn't make a trend.

Fragony

09-01-2009, 15:31

his work for Iranian tv.

Yep that finally did it, indeed his theology, his tapes, his lack of scientific credibility, his duplicity (I could add some more points of attention, like his admiration of his grand-dad younowho) his work at the Iranian tv finaly did it indeed. Took a while, but he went too far. Finally, must have assumed he would get away with it, so did I really.

Tribesman

09-01-2009, 15:32

que wut, what does that have to do with this;
It has to do with this.

It must be bliss to live in your little cocoon and make things up without bothering with the outside world.
Fragony making things up ? never :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
So while adrian listed some of your favourite topics for inventing "facts" I simply added some more of your speciality subjects where you really like to invent "facts" on a huge scale.

Adrian II

09-01-2009, 15:35

So while adrian listed some of your favourite topics for inventing "facts" I simply added some more of your speciality subjects where you really like to invent "facts" on a huge scale.Good to have you back with guns blazing, me boy. We should make a tagging schedule for threads like these, saves us time. :idea2:

Fragony

09-01-2009, 15:39

Is it just me or am I slapping AdrianII around Tribes, you are welcome to join I got two hands.

Tribesman

09-01-2009, 15:56

We should make a tagging schedule for threads like these, saves us time.
It takes no time at all really, all that is required is to get a brief description of the themes the topic covers .
Decide if any of those are Frags speciality subjects.
Then work on the basis that he is going to be inventing "facts" like there is no tommorrow.
Simple isn't it.

Moros

09-01-2009, 16:06

That is the utmost rediculous article I ever read. Dear god.
Being right or left aside, but that article is just plain silly. And I strike it as odd that it is not apparant to everyone. If you think logically you can't come to any other conclusion. Unless your letting your ideals corrupt your proces of thought.

Adrian II

09-01-2009, 16:09

Is it just me or am I slapping AdrianII around Tribes, you are welcome to join I got two hands.It's just you again, darling.

And somewhere, someone is googling like mad for a left-wing politician who condones abuse of women in Iran... :mellow:

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-01-2009, 16:13

It's just you again, darling.

And somewhere, someone is googling like mad for a left-wing politician who condones abuse of women in Iran... :mellow:

Actually, I'm back to actually working.

I probably wouldn't find one, because we don't like the Iranians any more. I'm sure I could find something on the right of Pakistanis to marry their daughters to their brothers' sons, though.

Fragony

09-01-2009, 16:14

But I thought AdrianII and me just agreed that it wasn't really like he said it is, namely that Ramadan was fired for working on Iranian guv network and not because of his texts, despite his theology, his tapes, his lack of scientific credibility, his duplicity he wasn't dropped like a brick, quite the contrary. What a discussion, should someone who feels that women should have their eyes peeled at the concrete at all times serve as a bridge between communities, he doesn't even speak dutch. Complete and utter leftist madness yet they went all the way for him, up to the professors of unsurprisingly the University of Amsterdam. And as we already know, Rotterdam lying about tapes, lying about how they are wrongly translated to keep a piece of crap like this out of the wind. It costs 350.000 euro a year but at least you have someone visiting your party's when he isn't really everywhere.

Moros

09-01-2009, 16:24

Actually, I'm back to actually working.

I probably wouldn't find one, because we don't like the Iranians any more. I'm sure I could find something on the right of Pakistanis to marry their daughters to their brothers' sons, though.

Well you can do that in the UK as well...:sweatdrop:

InsaneApache

09-01-2009, 16:49

Come on, deliver. Gimme some left-wingers who condone Iranian abuse of women because it's a different culture. That's what you said, remember? I want names. Even 1 name would at least lend some credibility to you claim, though one left-winger doesn't make a trend.

George Galloway.

I can read but more than that, I can think as well as chew gum.

Multiculturlism is a child of the left. Once upon a time the left stood for things. Equality for one.

It's like this sharia law bunkum, there should be one law for all citizens, applied equally. Without exception.

Adrian II

09-01-2009, 16:51

George Galloway.So what did he say and where?

InsaneApache

09-01-2009, 16:58

Tribesman

09-01-2009, 18:07

It's like this sharia law bunkum
Good point , those sharia law stories are bunkum.
Oh thats not what you meant is it:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

HoreTore

09-01-2009, 18:30

I used to listen to him on TalkSport. I'm sure if you go to their site they will have an archive.

OK I'll hold my hands up. He doesn't condone but he is an apologist. A useful idiot. A dhimmi.

A bit like those funny chaps who go around denying things that happened somewhere in central Europe in the 1940s.*

*Did I get away with avoiding Godwin? :sweatdrop:

So he's an apologist? What does he say then? Things like "female circumcision isn't a religion thing, it's a cultural thing" or "we also do x"?

Oh, and using "weird islamic phrases" like "dhimmi" doesn't make you cool.

InsaneApache

09-01-2009, 18:43

:laugh4:

Adrian II

09-01-2009, 19:16

OK I'll hold my hands up. He doesn't condone but he is an apologist. A useful idiot. A dhimmi.He does not support, condone, excuse, or even show 'understanding' for, the abuse of women in Iran?

That's 3 - 0 for Adrian II then..

By the way, I'm not even sure Galloway is a lefty anymore. Or useful to anyone. Just 'idiot' seems to cover it quite well, really.

Anyone else want to have a go at my question? Name one left-wing leader or ideologue who condones the abuse of women in Iran. Winner gets a free beard, 72 virgins and a book on the Holocaust.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-01-2009, 19:19

Well you can do that in the UK as well...:sweatdrop:

Um, we can? I'm pretty sure we can't.

Tribesman

09-01-2009, 19:40

Um, we can? I'm pretty sure we can't.

Of course you can , just like you can in most of the US, you can over here too but I think you have to get a letter from the Pope if you want it done in church, its common with the tinkers as they have the clan thing and the whole patrilineal gubbins that was traditional throughout europe.
But just off hand PVC how many married cousins can you quickly think of in Christian scripture?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-01-2009, 20:30

Of course you can , just like you can in most of the US, you can over here too but I think you have to get a letter from the Pope if you want it done in church, its common with the tinkers as they have the clan thing and the whole patrilineal gubbins that was traditional throughout europe.
But just off hand PVC how many married cousins can you quickly think of in Christian scripture?

Plenty.

Tribesman

09-02-2009, 00:07

Plenty.
Well there you go then.
If you take the part in the article where he slags of Pakistanis for doing it, then take the Bishop he likes who wants good old european and christian traditions then Cohen manages to condemn something he also praises.
Cohen really seems to want to outdo Hitchens when it comes to the drunken ramblings of a neo-con ex-trotskyite.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-02-2009, 00:20

Well there you go then.
If you take the part in the article where he slags of Pakistanis for doing it, then take the Bishop he likes who wants good old european and christian traditions then Cohen manages to condemn something he also praises.
Cohen really seems to want to outdo Hitchens when it comes to the drunken ramblings of a neo-con ex-trotskyite.

Christian tradition has usually rejected marriage between second cousins or closer.

However, if you are reffering to the Bishop of Roschester, I'm not a fan.

Tribesman

09-02-2009, 00:37

Christian tradition has usually rejected marriage between second cousins or closer.

Has it indeed . So Darwin didn't get married in a traditional Christian service in an anglican church to his cousin?
And just for good measure the priest was also their cousin.
Thats a real family wedding isn't it , I wonder how the ushers managed at the door
Bride or grooms family ? Both ...OK sit in the aisle then

Adrian II

09-02-2009, 00:39

Tribesman

09-02-2009, 00:59

Don't laugh Adrian this is serious .
You have to consider the consequences, if you marry into your own family then you only get half as many wedding gifts.

Adrian II

09-02-2009, 01:00

Don't laugh Adrian this is serious .
You have to consider the consequences, if you marry into your own family then you only get half as many wedding gifts.Oh geroffit, it takes an Irishman to see only the downside of everything.

*ducks*

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-02-2009, 01:18

Has it indeed . So Darwin didn't get married in a traditional Christian service in an anglican church to his cousin?
And just for good measure the priest was also their cousin.
Thats a real family wedding isn't it , I wonder how the ushers managed at the door
Bride or grooms family ? Both ...OK sit in the aisle then

The Victorians were hardly traditionalists when it came to the Church, the historic Canon Laws were explicit on this point. That they were abandoned for the sake of Kings and Emperors is a very great shame.

Tribesman

09-02-2009, 01:30

The Victorians were hardly traditionalists when it came to the Church, the historic Canon Laws were explicit on this point. That they were abandoned for the sake of Kings and Emperors is a very great shame.
Ah canon laws being abandoned for the sake of Kings , so that puts the whole anglican church out of the traditional field doesn't it, which is strange when its a British writer in the article who likes talking about Britain and its heritage and values.
I suppose that also rules out all the other protestants too as they broke with the historical canon .
So for traditional Christians I suppose that leaves the Copts, the African and eastern orthadox , the greek and roman catholics ,the Armenians ......wow all the churches with a long tradition(still ongoing) of keeping it in the family.

Oh geroffit, it takes an Irishman to see only the downside of everything.

OK look on the bright side, you only have to supply drink for half as many people.:2thumbsup:

*geese*

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-02-2009, 01:51

Ah canon laws being abandoned for the sake of Kings , so that puts the whole anglican church out of the traditional field doesn't it, which is strange when its a British writer in the article who likes talking about Britain and its heritage and values.
I suppose that also rules out all the other protestants too as they broke with the historical canon .
So for traditional Christians I suppose that leaves the Copts, the African and eastern orthadox , the greek and roman catholics ,the Armenians ......wow all the churches with a long tradition(still ongoing) of keeping it in the family.

OK look on the bright side, you only have to supply drink for half as many people.:2thumbsup:

*geese*

Actually, the Canons were abandoned by the Catholics, at the Third Latteran, irrc.

It really depends on how traditional you want to be. I'm with Wyclif on this one, anything after 1200 was pretty much a dead loss.

Adrian II

09-02-2009, 09:22

OK look on the bright side, you only have to supply drink for half as many people.:2thumbsup:

*geese*If I were the bridegroom in that marriage, I would drink a small fortune's worth of booz. Unless the bride came with potatoes. Oops, I'm starrrtin' to sound Irish meself.

*quacks*

Tribesman

09-02-2009, 11:53

Actually, the Canons were abandoned by the Catholics, at the Third Latteran
Of the canons from the 3rd only one deals with marriage and it says bugger all about marrying cousins.

Fragony

09-02-2009, 13:08

Paddie & Dyke, now running rated F. For FAILLURE. So why, againwtfhy, was he fired?

Two options: 1 you know you are wrong 2 you really dont

Tribesman

09-02-2009, 15:10

Paddie & Dyke, now running rated F. For FAILLURE. So why, againwtfhy, was he fired?

Wow the inventor of "facts" is in a time warp.

What have you been smoking now? Henk Krol is in charge of his paper as always and he has been totally vindicated.

So.....
Didn't get away with that one hehe, much to my amusement. This was a little too much truth for altering,
Yes you didn't get away with writing lies last time so why on earth do you think you can try the same lie again?

Fragony

09-02-2009, 15:29

wednesday, september 2

PPD also seems to block reading, and possibly other usually usefull functions. All reason gone. I am all alone.

Tribesman

09-02-2009, 15:51

All reason gone.
That was evident long ago.

I am all alone.
Don't be silly , there are lots of fruitcakes in the world who invent "facts" Frag so you are certainly not alone.

Fragony

09-02-2009, 15:58

Don't be silly , there are lots of fruitcakes in the world who invent "facts" Frag so you are certainly not alone.

It's like the Batman and the Joker, I get to present facts and you can cast bollocks-dust but batman always wins.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-02-2009, 17:45

Of the canons from the 3rd only one deals with marriage and it says bugger all about marrying cousins.

You're actually going to make me go and look it up, aren't you? Fine, off I go.

Tribesman

09-03-2009, 01:13

It's like the Batman and the Joker, I get to present facts and you can cast bollocks-dust but batman always wins.

I think Adrian was wrong , you havn't been smoking strange stuff , you are clearly tripping like crazy on some mad acid and have left reality entirely.
When you come back to panet earth do yourself a favour and look up the meaning of the word FACT

You're actually going to make me go and look it up, aren't you? Fine, off I go.

or I could just say that it deals with money changing hands and save you the trouble

Fragony

09-03-2009, 18:07

I think Adrian was wrong , you havn't been smoking strange stuff , you are clearly tripping like crazy on some mad acid and have left reality entirely.
When you come back to panet earth do yourself a favour and look up the meaning of the word FACT

or I could just say that it deals with money changing hands and save you the trouble

Water is wet, black isn't white, here is another one: Tariq Ramadan wasn't fired for his texts, much unlike AdrianII says. It's simple, it's not t-t-t-true.

Adrian II

09-03-2009, 18:52

Tariq Ramadan wasn't fired for his texts, much unlike AdrianII says.Sigh...

You said Krol was finished because he published Ramadan's tapes. He wasn't.

And now Ramadan is finished because of a lot of things. The final straw and official reason for his termination is that he contributed to Iranian state tv.

Krol, meanwhile, is alive and kicking.

Fragony (post #2): Krol is finished, Ramadan is victorious.
Adrian II (post #13): Ramadan is finished, Krol is victorious.

Now stop spreading lies or I shall have to taunt you. :knight:

Fragony

09-03-2009, 19:10

And now Ramadan is finished because of a lot of things. The final straw and official reason for his termination is that he contributed to Iranian state tv.

Yes as I said that got him fired, but thing is, what happened until that, didn't get him fired. So are you really sure you really have a point.

Tribesman

09-03-2009, 22:33

It's simple, it's not t-t-t-true.
Wow you wrote something that could actually be correct Frag.
In as much as most of what you write on your favourite subjects is simply not true

Now stop spreading lies or I shall have to taunt you.
Was his mother a hamster and did his father smell of elderberries?

Adrian II

09-03-2009, 22:35

Was his mother a hamster and did his father smell of elderberries?I have farted in his general direction! :smug:

Fragony

09-04-2009, 02:28

Seek eachother comfort all you want it doesn't make it any less true, and it just happens to be exactly as I say it is

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

09-04-2009, 02:42

Sigh...

You said Krol was finished because he published Ramadan's tapes. He wasn't.

And now Ramadan is finished because of a lot of things. The final straw and official reason for his termination is that he contributed to Iranian state tv.

Krol, meanwhile, is alive and kicking.

Fragony (post #2): Krol is finished, Ramadan is victorious.
Adrian II (post #13): Ramadan is finished, Krol is victorious.

Now stop spreading lies or I shall have to taunt you. :knight:

Forgive me, but wasn't Frag's actual point that the translation this chap provided from French into Dutch was not doctored (as claimed), and that it was an example of a socialist also being profoundly sexist.

Sorry to stick my oar in, but this is what I understood Frag to have originally claimed, and this is getting tiring to read.

So, can someone else clarify the competency of this translation?

Fragony

09-04-2009, 06:19

Well we agree about the translations, I would be pretty surprised if AdrianII isn't fluent in french. Thing is is that these texts aren't the reason he was fired. Now first of all, he was hired to build bridges between the west and the muslim world, lefties feel we need to do consessions apparently. These texts weren't a problem for the leftieloonies they went all the way for seomeone who says women should have their eyes peeled at the concrete at all times, they even accused the publisher of the texts, the head of the Gay-courant out of all people, of having an islamophobe agenda and publishing wrong translations, an accusation that will have lobbyists tear you apart byebye advertising revenues, byebye newspaper, byebye everything really. AdrianII doesn't seem to know how these things work. But there is more. He is also the grandson of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, bringing you terrorism since 1930, and he openly admires him when not talking to leftieloonies, praying for all the muslim-soldiers in the world and the victory of Islam, but if he did they would probably mentally block it nononononoNO it isn't true it isn't possible we agreed otherwise. Well and the texts speak for themselves. They knew all about him when they hired him, if they didn't they don't check who they give a lot of money. And in his confidence who thought he could work for the Iranians state tv in the meantime, and I don't blame him it's a pity for the lefties it came out, they had to drop him, but they would never had otherwise, might be dropped yourself in leftielalaland.

Wow you wrote something that could actually be correct Frag.
In as much as most of what you write on your favourite subjects is simply not true

It's always true, otherwise it would be too easy to shoot me down, I don't have the luxory of political correctness, and you never shoot me down. Or anyone really including AdrianII. It's like pouring water on a duck it will stay on top regardless.

In the meantime http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1251804475335&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

for gods sake England press your legs together we live below sealevel here, that is hard enough as it is we can't have your desire on top of that.

Tribesman

09-04-2009, 09:42

It's always true, otherwise it would be too easy to shoot me down
What a short memory you have:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Fragony

09-04-2009, 09:58

What a short memory you have:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Tribes you have never beaten me in a discussion and that is going to remain so as long as I am right and you are wrong.

Adrian II

09-04-2009, 10:42

It's like pouring water on a duck it will stay on top regardless.The same goes for turds.

Anyway, interesting link you gave there. I wonder if the 1001 Muslim inventions in that book are as fictive as the 1001 tales.

The gentleman mentions the period of the 7th to the 17th century as the time when the 'first manned flight' took place. This is a bad omen. Define 'manned flight', please.

Kites have been used as man lifters since Antiquity. Manned balloons were introduced by the Montgolfier brothers in 1783. George Cayley's manned glider dates from 1853. In 1903 Orville and Wilbur Wright came up with their flying bicycle - the first powered flight.

Where's Allah is all this?

And where's the 7th to 17th century in all this? Sure, Leonardo drew flying machines and maybe - just maybe- built one, though there is no evidence that he ever flew one. And in the thirteenth century a Chinese mandarin launched himself on a chair that had 48 rockets strapped to it. He flew alright - in very, very small pieces.

Muslims can be as smart as anyone else and Muslim societies produced some interesting inventions before religious orthodoxy and political autocracy killed the spirit of intellectual exploration and experiment in that culture. Similarly the Chinese never benefited from some of their fascinating early discoveries and inventions because Mandarin culture killed human initiative.

It was only in Europe, and by the end of the period mentioned, that the scientific worldview developed in spite of and in opposition to religious prejudice, allowing for systematic experimentation and theory-building. Property law did the rest. Henceforth a man could claim his own inventions and reap the benefits of them, eventually resulting in Europe's industrial take-off and military supremacy. The Chinese invented the rudder, gun powder and cartography alright. The British brought it back to China on superior ships with superior crews, using superior astronomical knowledge, and armed with superior guns.

Fragony

09-04-2009, 10:57

Muslims can be as smart as anyone else and Muslim societies produced some interesting inventions before religious orthodoxy and political autocracy killed the spirit of intellectual exploration and experiment in that culture.

So they say but that is bull, religious orthodoxy in the muslim world is a rather modern thing. It's a backward reformation in a way.

Adrian II

09-04-2009, 10:59

[..] religious orthodoxy in the muslim world is a rather modern thing.Yes. That is exactly what I said.

Fragony

09-04-2009, 11:15

Yes. That is exactly what I said.

Well in that case we have found eachother after disagreement, coffee?

Adrian II

09-04-2009, 12:17

Well in that case we have found each other after disagreement, coffee?I never have trouble finding you. Ik weet waar je huis woont, yongu. Kofi dringi bun, ma no fokop mi bakra.

Fragony

09-04-2009, 12:28

Jij gaat te wreed konto met mijn pipa swah.

Tribesman

09-04-2009, 13:59

Tribes you have never beaten me in a discussion and that is going to remain so as long as I am right and you are wrong.

That could be true , if you was ever right on your favourite subject.
So where would you like to revisit ?
"Innocent" people firebombing mosques ?
Introduction of sharia law?
Forcing governments to build mosques?
Crime in the Netherlands?
Demographics?
Immigration?
Tax funding for extremists?
Persecution of christians?
People being found not guilty just because they are Muslims?
People who want to bring their own children to the Pride festival are really child molesters?
Bloody hell you even do the annual OMG they are banning christmas nonsense.

The list goes on and on , in every case you resort to the most ridiculous outright lies , when the discussion ends and your "truth" has been shown to be absolute bollox you leave it a short while then start another topic repeating the same already exposed lies.

Fragony

09-05-2009, 07:42

That could be true , if you was ever right on your favourite subject.
So where would you like to revisit ?
"Innocent" people firebombing mosques ?
Introduction of sharia law?
Forcing governments to build mosques?
Crime in the Netherlands?
Demographics?
Immigration?
Tax funding for extremists?
Persecution of christians?
People being found not guilty just because they are Muslims?
People who want to bring their own children to the Pride festival are really child molesters?
Bloody hell you even do the annual OMG they are banning christmas nonsense.

The list goes on and on , in every case you resort to the most ridiculous outright lies , when the discussion ends and your "truth" has been shown to be absolute bollox you leave it a short while then start another topic repeating the same already exposed lies.

Yeah that all sounds about just right, minus persecution of christians, and kids at the gay-pride being molested, what gave you that idea.