September 1, 1939

[Agent Miles]

Seventy years ago today, the most horrible war in human history started. I heard that at the Armistace for the First World War, Marshal Foch predicted the start of the Second World War, almost to the day. Perhaps as many as 70 million people died from all causes. Billions of pounds, franc, rubles, reichmarks, dollars and yen were spent. A total sum that might be as much as five trillion U.S. dollars in today's market. Tens of thousands of guns, tanks and planes have now turned to rust or were swollowed by the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

"If a bloody battle is a horrible sight, then that is cause for paying more respect to war and not for letting the sword that we wear blunter and blunter by degree, from feelings of humanity, until someone steps in with one that is sharp and lops off the arm from our body." Clausewitz

"I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." Einstein

There's the rub.

[Adrian II]

Seventy years ago today, the most horrible war in human history started. I heard that at the Armistace for the First World War, Marshal Foch predicted the start of the Second World War, almost to the day. Perhaps as many as 70 million people died from all causes. Billions of pounds, franc, rubles, reichmarks, dollars and yen were spent. A total sum that might be as much as five trillion U.S. dollars in today's market. Tens of thousands of guns, tanks and planes have now turned to rust or were swollowed by the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

"If a bloody battle is a horrible sight, then that is cause for paying more respect to war and not for letting the sword that we wear blunter and blunter by degree, from feelings of humanity, until someone steps in with one that is sharp and lops off the arm from our body." Clausewitz

"I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." Einstein

There's the rub.Good post. I can only answer with the words of my favourite author:


The sharpest weapon of man is his mind.

~Adrian II ~

[Vladimir]

:laugh4: I think somebody already did that one: The pen is mightier than the sword. :2thumbsup:

But yes, Poland, Germany, and Russia are remembering this day. Putin said some pretty outrageous things about fighting a common threat (the Germans).

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Despite the horrible scale of death and destruction, the WWII was a blessing for Europe and partly the rest of the world. It was after it that the fascistic regimes spawned all around the continent post WWI were terminated, the concepts of human rights and equalities, though steadily, began to have some concrete standing and further advances in such humanitarian virtues had a basis to build upon. It was only the Stalinist regime with its dominions that survived a little longer and that was because they happened to be on the winning side...

I seriously wish, on my part, that Turkey had entered the war alongside Hitler and were defeated, in order to be able to get reformed in its true sense. Even today, we're living under the ghost of a post WWI regime and it seems that it'll be long before we (and the world) completely get rid of it.
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[Jolt]

the most horrible war in human history started.

That is subjective. I'd classify the Mongol campaigns as far, far, far, far more horrible than World War 2.

[Agent Miles]

The best info I can find is that the Mongols may have killed 40 million people, so its not even close, really. Also, their expansion ended without the invention and use of a weapon that could destroy all life on Earth.

[Furunculus]

what was the world population when ol' Genghis was roaming the steppes?

it's all relative, or so they say.

[al Roumi]

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Despite the horrible scale of death and destruction, the WWII was a blessing for Europe and partly the rest of the world. It was after it that the fascistic regimes spawned all around the continent post WWI were terminated, the concepts of human rights and equalities, though steadily, began to have some concrete standing and further advances in such humanitarian virtues had a basis to build upon. It was only the Stalinist regime with its dominions that survived a little longer and that was because they happened to be on the winning side...

I seriously wish, on my part, that Turkey had entered the war alongside Hitler and were defeated, in order to be able to get reformed in its true sense. Even today, we're living under the ghost of a post WWI regime and it seems that it'll be long before we (and the world) completely get rid of it.
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Yikes! You'd want your country to have been involved in that? I understand the frustration of living with the Turkish state but I'm not sure I could sanction that kind of misery. You'd have to be Ozymandius of Watchmen fame to call that one!

I guess it's a tragedy of hummanity that only through living horror do we improve ourselves, and even then, it can't be hard to argue that the countries involved in WW2 are still horrid by some definitions.

[Jolt]

The best info I can find is that the Mongols may have killed 40 million people, so its not even close, really. Also, their expansion ended without the invention and use of a weapon that could destroy all life on Earth.

The Nanking massacre is called the greatest single act of discriminated murder in military invasion of World War 2. Highest estimates reach the 500,000. (Remember, this is a densely populous chinese city in the 20th Century)

Then you have Mongol Chinese campaigns, which made the Chinese population go from 60 million to 10 million.
Then you have massacres like the one at Nishapur, which killed 1,750,000 people in one go.
Then another one at Herat which estimates range from 1,500,000 to 2,500,000 deaths in one go.
Then you have yet another one in Maru, which ranges around 1,300,000 in one go.

(One go might be a massacre of several weeks/months, but the point is that they didn't finish until they massacred ALL those that weren't useful to them.)

Now let me ask. Would you rather have lived in a city that was part of the Mongol attacks or a city that was part of a German/Japanese/Allied attack?

[Agent Miles]

Well after more than five centuries it is difficult to separate myth from fact. I've found figures as low as thirty million deaths over a period of five decades for the Mongol Khans. Europeans certainly described them as boogy men who even copulated with their horses. How much is true?
I would most certainly not want to have been in Stalingrad/any of the Chinese cities that the Japanese dropped plague ridden fleas on /Hiroshima.

[Meneldil]

The Nanking massacre is called the greatest single act of discriminated murder in military invasion of World War 2. Highest estimates reach the 500,000. (Remember, this is a densely populous chinese city in the 20th Century)

Then you have Mongol Chinese campaigns, which made the Chinese population go from 60 million to 10 million.
Then you have massacres like the one at Nishapur, which killed 1,750,000 people in one go.
Then another one at Herat which estimates range from 1,500,000 to 2,500,000 deaths in one go.
Then you have yet another one in Maru, which ranges around 1,300,000 in one go.

(One go might be a massacre of several weeks/months, but the point is that they didn't finish until they massacred ALL those that weren't useful to them.)

Now let me ask. Would you rather have lived in a city that was part of the Mongol attacks or a city that was part of a German/Japanese/Allied attack?

Given that these numbers were recorded by muslim historians, who did their best to portray Mongols as 'ze evil subhumans who came to destroy us', mentioning them in a discussion might not be really helpful.
Heck, some of them stated that Herat was spared. The list of such fallacies in so-called records is endless.
Even the numbers you're bringing up are inflated. Most muslim scholars - whose opinion might honestly be regarded as biaised - estimated that between 300k and 800K were killed in Nishapur. I've yet to find a source mentioning 1.750.000. The same goes on for the other cities you listed.

Furthermore, it's highly unrealistic to even think that 'China' (either Jin or Song) could have recovered from the manpower loss you brought up. The conquest started during the first half of the 13th and officially ended in 1279 (with the second part being the bloodiest one). In the 1290's, Marco Polo describes China as an immensely wealthy and quite populated place. How in hell would that be possible if China was left with a mere 10 millions inhabitants?

I'm not denying that the mongol conquests were probably one of the bloodiest era known to mankind, but 'sly'. You sound like the people who claim Stalin killed 120+ million russians/soviets during his reign. That's cool and all, but that doesn't really make a point.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I'm not denying that the mongol conquests were probably one of the bloodiest era known to mankind, but 'sly'. You sound like the people who claim Stalin killed 120+ million russians/soviets during his reign. That's cool and all, but that doesn't really make a point.

I've never heard anyone claim that.

[Beskar]

I heard some one claimed the Nazi's killed around 22 million being exterminations of traitors, homosexuals, disabled, gypsies, jewish, etc.

That doesn't include those that died as direct result of warfare. That number would be far higher.

[Mouzafphaerre]

Yikes! You'd want your country to have been involved in that? I understand the frustration of living with the Turkish state but I'm not sure I could sanction that kind of misery. You'd have to be Ozymandius of Watchmen fame to call that one!

I guess it's a tragedy of hummanity that only through living horror do we improve ourselves, and even then, it can't be hard to argue that the countries involved in WW2 are still horrid by some definitions.
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I might come out harsh or sound sentimental but, yes, I do believe that we should have entered the war with Hitler, where -considering our regime- we belonged to, have been defeated and rebuilt. Just a quick comparison of Germany and Japan with Turkey, now and then in all aspects from life standards to economy to culture and so on would help understand my point. Not that I explicitly wish agony and destruction for my people, but because its aftermath would have been much more profitting.
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[al Roumi]

Not that I explicitly wish agony and destruction for my people, but because its aftermath would have been much more profitting.


I understand what you are saying and it is an interesting thought, it's just that my liberal sensitivies (no doubt engendered by engrained socio-political memory of WW2 :wiseguy:) are shocked at the prospect of wishing such a bloody rebirth of your country. Easy for me to be so sensitive you amy say...

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Coming from another liberal (sort of) it must be even more shocking to you. ~D
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[al Roumi]

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Coming from another liberal (sort of) it must be even more shocking to you. ~D
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Strange, i don't seem to have rights to view that post.

As to Turkey, Abdul Hamid 2 is one I'd chiefly condemn for the stalled early (well, late compared to other European nations) progress of the Empire. Maybe that's just what i've read.

Edit - I just read the last post on your profile, which completely refutes what i just said about Abdul Hamid II. :S

[Mouzafphaerre]

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You need to activate the Backroom membership in your profile in order to behold the hell Backroom. ~:)
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[Noncommunist]

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I seriously wish, on my part, that Turkey had entered the war alongside Hitler and were defeated, in order to be able to get reformed in its true sense. Even today, we're living under the ghost of a post WWI regime and it seems that it'll be long before we (and the world) completely get rid of it.
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What was so terrible about Attaturk's version of Turkey? While not perfect, wouldn't it be better than a lot of other possible versions of Turkey?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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It's as perfect as Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, Mussolini's Italy and little less perfect that Hitler's Germany, Stalin's USSR etc. More in line with the post WWI regimes of Romania, Hungary etc. though.

Totalitarian dictatorship, enforced fascistic nationalism, opression of ethnic and religious identities, autarchia and so on... Not to mention mass or singular murders, exiles and all that sexy stuff. Dreamland indeed. ~:)
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[Noncommunist]

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It's as perfect as Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, Mussolini's Italy and little less perfect that Hitler's Germany, Stalin's USSR etc. More in line with the post WWI regimes of Romania, Hungary etc. though.

Totalitarian dictatorship, enforced fascistic nationalism, opression of ethnic and religious identities, autarchia and so on... Not to mention mass or singular murders, exiles and all that sexy stuff. Dreamland indeed. ~:)
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But don't you guys have a parliament? And wouldn't you guys eventually turn from the more extreme nationalistic views to the more moderated views that the more western nations hold of themselves?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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We've had a parliament since 1950. (There was one, in name, before that too but everybody were assigned by the dictators orders. Elections were a formality.) It didn't stop the military caste to intervene in 1960, 1971, 1980 and 1997 though.

The horrible training system and the way mass media works won't let people awake from nationalism and it by-product. Nowadays things are apparently improving but that doesn't change the fact that we're half a century behind the world.
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[Noncommunist]

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We've had a parliament since 1950. (There was one, in name, before that too but everybody were assigned by the dictators orders. Elections were a formality.) It didn't stop the military caste to intervene in 1960, 1971, 1980 and 1997 though.

The horrible training system and the way mass media works won't let people awake from nationalism and it by-product. Nowadays things are apparently improving but that doesn't change the fact that we're half a century behind the world.
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So would it basically be like a smaller version of todays Russia that doesn't mess with its neighbors as much?

[Furunculus]

The best info I can find is that the Mongols may have killed 40 million people, so its not even close, really. Also, their expansion ended without the invention and use of a weapon that could destroy all life on Earth.

40,000,000 out of a world population circa 1250AD of 400,000,000 is 10% kill ratio

70,000,000 out of a world population circa 1940AD of 2,500,000,000 is only a 2.8% kill ratio

[Mouzafphaerre]

So would it basically be like a smaller version of todays Russia that doesn't mess with its neighbors as much?
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I don't know today's Russia too much, except what we see and hear from the outside, but despite its possible similarities I believe it waters down the dramatic experience this country has been through for a century now.
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