Language ban in Slovakia

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Slovakia pass an act banning any language but Slovakian in public places and restricting the use of minority languages elsewhere too. Practically it's the Hungarians with their 10% population who will be effected most severely, and Gypsies. Those are details in my POV and any ban against any language I cannot regard human-like.

Even Turkey is getting ahead of this you know what steadily. It is really hard for me to restrain myself within the rules and find suitable words for this kind of zombie fascism.

One article here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8232878.stm), more can be looked up.
.

[Beskar]

A huge hit for the tourism industry.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

:inquisitive:

What about tourists? Slovaks communicating with tourists? Am I missing something, or did they really not think this through?

[Tratorix]

:inquisitive:

What about tourists? Slovaks communicating with tourists? Am I missing something, or did they really not think this through?


A huge hit for the tourism industry.

I'm keeping a running tally of people who have posted in this thread who have apparently thought about this more than the Slovakian government.

[Husar]

:laugh4:

And what about ambassadors? :laugh4:
Will Obama have to learn Slovakian not to get arrested when he visits? :inquisitive:
Will they arrest the Pope for speaking latin?

This sounds like an amusing display of nonsense and stupidity.

[Kadagar_AV]

"Only Slovak can now be used in public offices, and in institutions like schools and hospitals."

Article says NOTHING about forcing slovakians to speak slovakian to tourists. I think English will still be fine.



Why are people so opposed? The rule was implemented to cut down government costs... They no longer will need translators when immigrants visits hospitals, they dont have to translate the government webpage to X different languages, They dont need translators on the hospitals payroll 8hospital can instead focus on spending money on curing people)...

As an added bonus it gives immigrants and minority groups a kick in the behind to learn slovakian, thus making their transition to well-working citizens so much easier. This law in general will probably help more than it hurts.

So yes, I think the slovakian government thought about it, more than people in this thread.

[Papewaio]

More interested to see if this passes muster within the EU... must come under human rights/racism.

Also it is a great way to lose tourism as mentioned.

And what happens when a tourist a) Has a wallet stolen or goes to hospital?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

"Only Slovak can now be used in public offices, and in institutions like schools and hospitals."

Article says NOTHING about forcing slovakians to speak slovakian to tourists. I think English will still be fine.



Why are people so opposed? The rule was implemented to cut down government costs... They no longer will need translators when immigrants visits hospitals, they dont have to translate the government webpage to X different languages, They dont need translators on the hospitals payroll 8hospital can instead focus on spending money on curing people)...

As an added bonus it gives immigrants and minority groups a kick in the behind to learn slovakian, thus making their transition to well-working citizens so much easier. This law in general will probably help more than it hurts.

That sounds good (though Hungarian really should have been given a regional allowance at least, if it doesn't have one).


So yes, I think the slovakian government thought about it, more than people in this thread.

The way the OP was worded says that only Slovakian could be used in all public places. Most of us took that to mean outside of the home, I suppose.


And what happens when a tourist a) Has a wallet stolen

It's the East, you're probably not getting it back.

[Furunculus]

A huge hit for the tourism industry.

exactly what i thought.

on a similar note:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100008053/the-beginning-of-the-end-for-political-correctness-the-counter-revolution-has-begun-in-doncaster/



You do not have to go all the way in supporting the English Democrats party, whose silly proposal for an English parliament would add another superfluous layer to already excessive government, to raise a glass to Peter Davies, the party’s elected Mayor of Doncaster. Davies, the father of Tory MP Philip Davies, is one of just 11 directly elected mayors and he is enjoying increasing media exposure because of his outrageous agenda which, against all the tenets of consensual British politics, consists of doing what the public wants.

In his first week in office he cut his own salary from £73,000 to £30,000, which is putting one’s money where one’s mouth is. He also scrapped the mayoral limousine. He is ending Doncaster’s twinning with five towns around the world, an arrangement which he describes as “just for people to fly off and have a binge at the council’s expense”. He intends now to reduce (that’s right, reduce) council tax by 3 per cent this year.

The “diversity” portfolio has been abolished from the council’s cabinet. From next year no more funding will be given to the town’s “Gay Pride” event, on the grounds that people do not need to parade their sexuality, whatever it may be, at taxpayers’ expense. Black History Month, International Women’s Day and the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender History Month are similarly destined to become history.

Council funding of translation services for immigrants has been scrapped because he believes incomers should take the trouble to learn English. Officials have been ordered to abandon bureaucratic gobbledegook language. Davies is saving the taxpayers £80,000 by disaffiliating from the pointless Local Government Association and the Local Government Information Unit. He aims to abolish all non-jobs on the council, as epitomised by “community cohesion officers”. He is taking advice from the Taxpayers’ Alliance and the Campaign Against Political Correctness.

Davies’s views are calculated to put Harriet Harridan into intensive care for six months. He disregards all “green claptrap”, is creating more parking spaces to encourage traffic in the town for the benefit of business (”I’m not green and I’m not conned by global warming”). He has asked the Electoral Commission to reduce the number of Doncaster’s councillors from 63 to 21 (”If Pittsburgh can manage with nine councillors, why do we need 63?”).

You may be feeling disorientated, overcome by a surreal sensation, on hearing such extraordinary, unprecedented views. They are the almost forgotten, forcibly extinguished voice of sanity which most people had thought forever excised from British politics. These policies are common sense, which is something we have not experienced in any council chamber, still less the House of Commons, in decades. The establishment is moving heaven and earth to discredit and obstruct Davies. He is that ultimate embarrassment: the boy who reveals that the Emperor has no clothes.

If it is good enough for Doncaster, it is good enough for Britain. Our effete, corrupt, politically correct politicians must be compelled to follow suit. Once upon a time, such policies would have been axiomatic in the Tory Party. In the Cameron-occupied Conservative Party of today they are regarded as anathema. There has to be an inflexible public will to enforce the country’s wishes on the political class under pain of ejection from public life. That is the sole agenda for the next general election. The mainstream parties, as currently constituted, are no longer electable.


i like the guy already.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

on a similar note:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100008053/the-beginning-of-the-end-for-political-correctness-the-counter-revolution-has-begun-in-doncaster/


i like the guy already.

I feel like Christmas has come early. :2thumbsup:

[HoreTore]

What absolute rubbish.

[Papewaio]

It's the East, you're probably not getting it back.

Yeah, but you wouldn't expect to be arrested for trying to explain what happened in another language in a public office.

Also what happens to all the language teachers at schools?

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah, but you wouldn't expect to be arrested for trying to explain what happened in another language in a public office.

Also what happens to all the language teachers at schools?

*sigh*

A) This has nothing to do with tourists. You will be fine speaking english or german at the police station...

B) language teachers at school will still have their job. They will still etach german and english just like before.

[Ironside]

Anybody knows what

"Anyone found to be regularly misusing the Slovak language in public office now faces a fine of up to $7,000 (£4,300), the equivalent of nearly a year's average pay in Slovakia, reports say"
means?

Because I can understand if you only can be expected to be served in Slovakian, but if you get your doctor fined because he speaks Hungarian with you, because you're much better at Hungarian than Slovakian, then it starts to sound odd.

[Andres]

Slovakia signed and ratified the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.

As far as I know, they didn't make any reservations to this convention.

The convention itself doesn't define the term "national minority", but resolution 1201 (http://assembly.coe.int//Main.asp?link=http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/AdoptedText/TA93/EREC1201.HTM) does:



“For the purposes of this Convention, the expression ‘‘national minority'' refers to a group of persons in a state who:
a. reside on the territory of that state and are citizens thereof;
b. maintain longstanding, firm and lasting ties with that state;
c. display distinctive ethnic, cultural, religious or linguistic characteristics;
d. are sufficiently representative, although smaller in number than the rest of the population of that state or of a region of that state;
e. are motivated by a concern to preserve together that which constitutes their common identity, including their culture, their traditions, their religion or their language.”


So yes, the Hungarians are a minority that is protected by said convention.

Article 10, paragraph 2 & 3 of the convention:



2. In areas inhabited by persons belonging to national minorities traditionally or in substantial numbers, if those persons so request and where such a request corresponds to a real need, the Parties shall endeavour to ensure, as far as possible, the conditions which would make it possible to use the minority language in relations between those persons and the administrative authorities.
3. The Parties undertake to guarantee the right of every person belonging to a national minority to be informed promptly, in a language which he or she understands, of the reasons for his or her arrest, and of the nature and cause of any accusation against him or her, and to defend himself or herself in this language, if necessary with the free assistance of an interpreter.


Slovakia has also signed and ratified the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

Definition of minority languages in the charter:



Article 1 – Definitions
For the purposes of this Charter:
a “regional or minority languages” means languages that are:
i traditionally used within a given territory of a State by nationals of that State who form a group numerically smaller than the rest of the State's population; and
ii different from the official language(s) of that State; it does not include either dialects of the official language(s) of the State or the languages of migrants;


Relevant articles:



Article 9 – Judicial authorities
1 The Parties undertake, in respect of those judicial districts in which the number of residents using the regional or minority languages justifies the measures specified below, according to the situation of each of these languages and on condition that the use of the facilities afforded by the present paragraph is not considered by the judge to hamper the proper administration of justice:

a in criminal proceedings:

i to provide that the courts, at the request of one of the parties, shall conduct the
proceedings in the regional or minority languages; and/or
ii to guarantee the accused the right to use his/her regional or minority language; and/or
iii to provide that requests and evidence, whether written or oral, shall not be considered inadmissible solely because they are formulated in a regional or minority language; and/or
iv to produce, on request, documents connected with legal proceedings in the relevant regional or minority language, if necessary by the use of interpreters and translations involving no extra expense for the persons concerned;
b in civil proceedings:
i to provide that the courts, at the request of one of the parties, shall conduct the proceedings in the regional or minority languages; and/or
ii to allow, whenever a litigant has to appear in person before a court, that he or she may use his or her regional or minority language without thereby incurring additional expense; and/or
iii to allow documents and evidence to be produced in the regional or minority languages, if necessary by the use of interpreters and translations;
c in proceedings before courts concerning administrative matters:
i to provide that the courts, at the request of one of the parties, shall conduct the proceedings in the regional or minority languages; and/or
ii to allow, whenever a litigant has to appear in person before a court, that he or she may use his or her regional or minority language without thereby incurring additional expense; and/or
iii to allow documents and evidence to be produced in the regional or minority languages, if necessary by the use of interpreters and translations;

d to take steps to ensure that the application of sub-paragraphs i and iii of paragraphs b and c
above and any necessary use of interpreters and translations does not involve extra expense for
the persons concerned.
2 The Parties undertake:

a not to deny the validity of legal documents drawn up within the State solely because they
are drafted in a regional or minority language; or
b not to deny the validity, as between the parties, of legal documents drawn up within the country solely because they are drafted in a regional or minority language, and to provide that they can be invoked against interested third parties who are not users of these languages on condition that the contents of the document are made known to them by the person(s) who invoke(s) it; or
c not to deny the validity, as between the parties, of legal documents drawn up within the country solely because they are drafted in a regional or minority language.
3 The Parties undertake to make available in the regional or minority languages the most
important national statutory texts and those relating particularly to users of these languages,
unless they are otherwise provided.

Article 10 – Administrative authorities and public services
1 Within the administrative districts of the State in which the number of residents who are users of regional or minority languages justifies the measures specified below and according to the situation of each language, the Parties undertake, as far as this is reasonably possible:
a i to ensure that the administrative authorities use the regional or minority languages; or
ii to ensure that such of their officers as are in contact with the public use the regional or minority languages in their relations with persons applying to them in these languages; or
iii to ensure that users of regional or minority languages may submit oral or written applications and receive a reply in these languages; or
iv to ensure that users of regional or minority languages may submit oral or written applications in these languages; or
v to ensure that users of regional or minority languages may validly submit a document in these languages;
b to make available widely used administrative texts and forms for the population in the regional or minority languages or in bilingual versions;
c to allow the administrative authorities to draft documents in a regional or minority language.

2 In respect of the local and regional authorities on whose territory the number of residents
who are users of regional or minority languages is such as to justify the measures specified below,
the Parties undertake to allow and/or encourage:

a the use of regional or minority languages within the framework of the regional or local
authority;

b the possibility for users of regional or minority languages to submit oral or written
applications in these languages;
c the publication by regional authorities of their official documents also in the relevant regional or minority languages;
d the publication by local authorities of their official documents also in the relevant regional or minority languages;
e the use by regional authorities of regional or minority languages in debates in their assemblies, without excluding, however, the use of the official language(s) of the State;

f the use by local authorities of regional or minority languages in debates in their assemblies,
without excluding, however, the use of the official language(s) of the State;

g the use or adoption, if necessary in conjunction with the name in the official language(s), of
traditional and correct forms of place-names in regional or minority languages.
3 With regard to public services provided by the administrative authorities or other persons acting on their behalf, the Parties undertake, within the territory in which regional or minority languages are used, in accordance with the situation of each language and as far as this is reasonably possible:
a to ensure that the regional or minority languages are used in the provision of the service; or
b to allow users of regional or minority languages to submit a request and receive a reply in
these languages; or
c to allow users of regional or minority languages to submit a request in these languages.

4 With a view to putting into effect those provisions of paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 accepted by
them, the Parties undertake to take one or more of the following measures:
a translation or interpretation as may be required;
b recruitment and, where necessary, training of the officials and other public service employees required;
c compliance as far as possible with requests from public service employees having a knowledge of a regional or minority language to be appointed in the territory in which that language is used.
5 The Parties undertake to allow the use or adoption of family names in the regional or minority languages, at the request of those concerned.

[Idaho]

exactly what i thought.

on a similar note:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100008053/the-beginning-of-the-end-for-political-correctness-the-counter-revolution-has-begun-in-doncaster/


i like the guy already.

While I'm sure many of the services and funding being cut are indeed superfluous - the proof of the pudding will be in many year's time.

[Furunculus]

agreed, but it's a worthy experiment if you, like me, believe that government spending absorbing more than 40% of GDP is downright immoral.

[Jolt]

This is clearly a discriminatory policy with the intention of attempting to assimilate the Hungarian minority to the Slovak culture/language. This measure, coupled with the denial of entry of the Hungarian president into Slovakia (http://www.euronews.net/2009/08/22/hungarian-president-denied-slovak-visit/), is an extremely worrying development of discrimination which is against everything which the European Union stands for. (Diversity and non-discrimination)

I suppose using the same modus operandi of Slovakia, we in Portugal will henceforth prevent the Spanish Kings from entrying Portugal, likewise Austria preventing the German leaders from visiting the country and so on. Can you imagine that?

[Adrian II]

Practically it's the Hungarians with their 10% population who will be effected most severely, and Gypsies.Exactly.

Cost-cutting my foot, this is done to harass minorities. It's just an excuse to kick Gypsies out of hospitals, convict Hungarians in court without granting them proper representation and other fascist nonsense. It's the 1930's time-warp playing tricks with a Balkan nation again.

As for Davies, I'm an instant fan. Can we please, plz, pl0x borrow that man!

[Furunculus]

agreed on both points.

slovakia's action seem merely divisive, but Davies is an experiment that should be supported, and if successful, emulated.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Fortunately, us non-native speakers have sign language.https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/hoppy84/2791011510032786982dhIUbm_ph.jpg

[Meneldil]

Typical nation-building experiment. Any country in the world has done it at some point, and though it's clearly aimed at minorities and is discriminating, I don't really get the fuss. Trying to enforce the national language over minorities doesn't sound *that* wrong to me.

As multicultural states have proved repeatedly to be huge failures, I certainly can understand why Slovakia tries to enforce a single culture. That's going to be rough for some people, but heh, that's how things go.

And come on, they're not banning foreign languages altogether, they're banning foreign languages from administrations and such.

[Idaho]

Typical nation-building experiment. Any country in the world has done it at some point, and though it's clearly aimed at minorities and is discriminating, I don't really get the fuss. Trying to enforce the national language over minorities doesn't sound *that* wrong to me.

As multicultural states have proved repeatedly to be huge failures, I certainly can understand why Slovakia tries to enforce a single culture. That's going to be rough for some people, but heh, that's how things go.

And come on, they're not banning foreign languages altogether, they're banning foreign languages from administrations and such.

It wouldn't sound bad to a frenchman! Your nation was built on destroying minority languages and doggedly defending modern french. At the time of the revolution only 10% of french people spoke french I believe.

[Sarmatian]

I think this is incorrectly represented by BBC. Slovakia can't pass a law that isn't in agreement with EU standards.

I'd also go as far as to say that Hungarians probably still have a right to use their language regionally, but if they move to Bratislava or whatever other region, they have to use Slovakian for official purposes. It doesn't apply to tourists and foreigners either.

This is really without reading anything on the issue, just a gut feeling that someone didn't do his homework properly before writing an article


This is clearly a discriminatory policy with the intention of attempting to assimilate the Hungarian minority to the Slovak culture/language. This measure, coupled with the denial of entry of the Hungarian president into Slovakia (http://www.euronews.net/2009/08/22/hungarian-president-denied-slovak-visit/), is an extremely worrying development of discrimination which is against everything which the European Union stands for. (Diversity and non-discrimination)



Actually, that Hungarian president is well known for his overly nationalistic public statements where he talks about incorporating into Hungary all lands that were once part of the Kingdom of Hungary and similar rubbish. He also tends to arrange official visits to more radically inclined Hungarian nationalistic parties in other countries without agreement with the government or the president of the country in question.

He was barred from Serbia and one other country, IIRC, for the exact same reason. That's a terrible breach of all diplomatic protocols...


with a Balkan nation again.


There should be a rule about a minimum geographical knowledge before traditional Balkan Bashing begins. Neither Hungary nor Slovakia are in the Balkans with even 0,01% of their territory.

[Mithrandir]

What about the tourists?

[Strike For The South]

You dont win over minorities by banning there language. You win over minorities by expousing there kids to Hannah Montana, the Dallas Cowboys, and flour tortillias.

[HoreTore]

Typical nation-building experiment. Any country in the world has done it at some point, and though it's clearly aimed at minorities and is discriminating, I don't really get the fuss. Trying to enforce the national language over minorities doesn't sound *that* wrong to me.

As multicultural states have proved repeatedly to be huge failures, I certainly can understand why Slovakia tries to enforce a single culture. That's going to be rough for some people, but heh, that's how things go.

And come on, they're not banning foreign languages altogether, they're banning foreign languages from administrations and such.

Yes, we all know that the US is a failed state, and that they are a failed state because of all those italian, french and spanish speakers.... :dizzy2:

[Meneldil]

The US built itself by enforcing the WASP ideal over the various newcomers.

Integrating the italian immigrants was a pain, nobody speaks french anymore except in some parts of the Maine and Louisiana and I doubt anyone would say that latinos' integration into the national community is a huge success so far.

I'd suggest you read how french as a language was wipped off the face of the British colonies/the newborn US. It wasn't 'hey dude, I know you have your own language, but you know speaking english would be cool too', but more among the lines of 'French is banned, period.' I'm not even going into the whole irish situation, the japanese and chinese cases and so on.

Of course, things are different now, because banning spanish or openly discriminating the latinos would be foolish, but if you think the US were built as a multicultural state, you're fooling yourself.

[Idaho]

There should be a rule about a minimum geographical knowledge before traditional Balkan Bashing begins.

Surely the rule is that you have to be another Balkan state/prinicpality/ethnic group before bashing your fellow Balkan?

[Kadagar_AV]

What about the tourists?

What about reading the thread before responding?

I know I already answered this twice, and so have others.

*they just dont make moderators like they used to*

[Mithrandir]

But what about the tourists?

[HoreTore]

double post

[LeftEyeNine]

I understand but I still don't see what tourists could do, say, in a situation where it is a very difficult situation.

[Sarmatian]

It doesn't affect tourists, it doesn't affect foreigners.

[HoreTore]

It doesn't affect tourists, it doesn't affect foreigners.

So, it's gone from "silly" to just "plain evil" then....

[Tratorix]

It doesn't affect tourists, it doesn't affect foreigners.

Oh, well, as long as it only affects the minorities with the nerve to live in Slovakia, it's fine. :rolleyes:

[Moros]

It doesn't affect tourists, it doesn't affect foreigners.

Yes it does. But barely.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Whilst I do feel sorry for the tourists (what if they don't speak Slovenian?), a big meh from me too. Balkan nations like Slovenia simply missed out on the nineteenth century, and have some catching up to do. :sweatdrop:


How did the Italians came to speak Italian? And the Swedes Swedish? With the exception of Iceland and other assorted lumps of rock, states create nations, not the other way round.

Although one could question the wisdom of going all 19th century on minorities anymore. What Europe needs, is not the EU, but Belgium. The most civilized state in Europe, and which provides the only workable solution - even though it is unworkable and proof they are all barking mad up there. :sweatdrop:

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Damn, I guess I'd better cancel that trip to Slovakia then.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Whilst I do feel sorry for the tourists (what if they don't speak Slovenian?), a big meh from me too. Balkan nations like Slovenia simply missed out on the nineteenth century, and have some catching up to do. :sweatdrop:


How did the Italians came to speak Italian? And the Swedes Swedish? With the exception of Iceland and other assorted lumps of rock, states create nations, not the other way round.

Although one could question the wisdom of going all 19th century on minorities anymore. What Europe needs, is not the EU, but Belgium. The most civilized state in Europe, and which provides the only workable solution - even though it is unworkable and they are all barking mad up there. :sweatdrop:

Well, Wales is trying to go Welsh-only again now, so I think the fad is over Loius.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well, Wales is trying to go Welsh-only again now, so I think the fad is over Loius.Yes, well, that's still not sufficient reason to spell my name in Welsh. It's 'Louis the Fat', not 'The fad Loius'. :no:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, well, that's still not sufficient reason to spell my name in Welsh. It's 'Louis the Fat', not 'The fad Loius'. :no:

Um, sorry, I assume you're joking, but you used a sad smiley.:oops:

[Louis VI the Fat]

My :no: smilie usually indicates a joke. What's more, their use is part of the joke. The format is always the same. I accuse others of being stupid while making an utter fool of myself:

'Tsk. Am I the only refined intellectual here who knows that the capital of Slovakia is Montenegro? Sheesh. :no: '


I shouldn't explain my jokes. I've got only three. One of which will be of no use any longer. :wall:

[LeftEyeNine]

So apparently Slovakia is out of plans since I may face unpleasant consequences as a tourist.

[Moros]

Um, sorry, I assume you're joking, but you used a sad smiley.:oops:
Should read the Louisianisms for dummies book, it's rather good if I may say. Or am I the only one who reads books out here? :no:

[Viking]

And the Swedes Swedish?

In the good old days, almost the entire Scandinavia spoke the same language. Had nothing to do with nation building. The Sami still speak Sami though; perhaps you should look at that instead.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

My :no: smilie usually indicates a joke. What's more, their use is part of the joke. The format is always the same. I accuse others of being stupid while making an utter fool of myself:

'Tsk. Am I the only refined intellectual here who knows that the capital of Slovakia is Montenegro? Sheesh. :no: '


I shouldn't explain my jokes. I've got only three. One of which will be of no use any longer. :wall:

Well, if it mattered that much you could PM me. Clearly, I have not been the butt of one of your jokes before, sorry :oops: again.

[Louis VI the Fat]

In the good old days, almost the entire Scandinavia spoke the same language. Had nothing to do with nation building. The Sami still speak Sami though; perhaps you should look at that instead.Yes, and the entire Latin world spoke Latin once. Nevertheless, after different languages had formed, the 'langue d'oc' was eradicated from France just as much as Sweden eradicated Danish from Helland, Blekinge and Skåne. Both are clear examples of nation-states eradicating the minority language in their south. Just as Slovakia is doing now. The Slovakians are simply a century behind the times.

Sometimes linguistic unification works. Sometimes it doesn't. The Sami, the Flemings and various other nature peoples in Europe and the colonies have proved remarkably succesfull in resisting the imposition of civilized languages. :book:


Edit: Stop apologizing, Phillipus! I am just having a laugh! :smash:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In the good old days, almost the entire Scandinavia spoke the same language. Had nothing to do with nation building. The Sami still speak Sami though; perhaps you should look at that instead.

I think this is a Myth, Old Norse was only Norse, not some universal language. We know this, because when you settled here you brought many languages and dialects with you.

[Moros]

Well, if it mattered that much you could PM me. Clearly, I have not been the butt of one of your jokes before, sorry :oops: again.
You're lucky, he's stalking me. :laugh4:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Edit: Stop apologizing, Phillipus! I am just having a laugh! :smash:

I'm English! That's like asking a fish to stop swimming!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh ****. Why didn't I remember that. Apologising for others stepping on your toes and all that. I could've exploited that a bit more. What a waste of an opportunity to discover what shades of purple this pale Englishman's face can manage. Bah. :wall:



AND I AM NOT STALKING YOU, MOROS! JUST BECAUSE I AM WRITING THIS ON MY LAPTOP PARKED IN THAT RED RENAULT OUTSIDE OF YOUR HOUSE IN PILSEN DOES NOT MEAN I STALK YOU, ALLRIGHT!? :furious3:

I do not even think you can see me from where you're sitting now on the second floor in the back of your house...

[Viking]

Yes, and the entire Latin world spoke Latin once. Nevertheless, after different languages had formed, the 'langue d'oc' was eradicated from France just as much as Sweden eradicated Danish from Helland, Blekinge and Skåne. Both are clear examples of nation-states eradicating the minority language in their south. Just as Slovakia is doing now. The Slovakians are simply a century behind the times.

Sometimes linguistic unification works. Sometimes it doesn't. The Sami, the Flemings and various other nature peoples in Europe and the colonies have proved remarkably succesfull in resisting the imposition of civilized languages. :book:

Very apt, of course; but to be picky, I don't think the Scanian (Skåne) dialect was outlawed. To this date, I like to think that most Norwegians are able to tell whether a Swede comes from Skåne or not.


I think this is a Myth, Old Norse was only Norse, not some universal language. We know this, because when you settled here you brought many languages and dialects with you.

There was Old West Norse and Old East Norse. The point was though how much modernity has had an influence on the lingual unity. In Norway at least, I am pretty certain that the different Norwegian dialects at the time (if any) must have been more intelligible than what they are today. Modern western Norwegian and eastern Norwegian are about as different from each other as standard Swedish is from either.

[Adrian II]

What about the tourists?No problem. The Hungarians, Gypsies and other minorities have all been declared tourists. The minister for Tourism is expecting a huge peak this year.

[LeftEyeNine]

This whole tourist issue is giving me insomnia. :/

[Mithrandir]

Damn, I guess I'd better cancel that trip to Slovakia then.

Good point! What about the tourists?

[Adrian II]

Good point! What about the tourists?Good question. The real answer of course is that most tourists won't notice anything since they don't speak Hungarian or Romany.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There was Old West Norse and Old East Norse. The point was though how much modernity has had an influence on the lingual unity. In Norway at least, I am pretty certain that the different Norwegian dialects at the time (if any) must have been more intelligible than what they are today. Modern western Norwegian and eastern Norwegian are about as different from each other as standard Swedish is from either.

Mutual intelligability exists on multiple levels, the level at various periods between Scandanavia and England is instructive, as is the level within England. In both cases, I believe it depended on how far and often you traveled, but unity only comes with a written standard. When that was achieved in Norway I'm not sure, but it can't be before Cnut started using English missionaries to convert the populace.

[Incongruous]

:dizzy2:Pathetic and utterly racist, what a bunch of bloody fools, this will do stability in eastern Europe no end of harm, what with bloody fascists popping up everywhere, including Hungary, who will no doubt begin demanding hostile nationlist measures.

For God's sake, what on earth are Eastern Europeans smoking?:smash:

[Papewaio]

As multicultural states have proved repeatedly to be huge failures, I certainly can understand why Slovakia tries to enforce a single culture. That's going to be rough for some people, but heh, that's how things go.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/fr.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/as.html

Life Expectancy: Australia 81.63 years, France 80.98. Points 1 : 0
Olympics... do we even need to look this up, let alone adjust per capita. 1 points to Aus, 1 to France for inventing it. 2: 1
Economy:
Unemployment Australia Unemployment half that of France 3:1
GDP per Capita: Australia $38k US, France $32k 4:1
Public Debt: Australia 14% of GDP, France 68% 5:1
Industrial Growth Rate: Australia 3%, France - 2% 7:1 (shrinkage is never sexy).

etc.

And what do I see when I go around Sydney. Lots of places with signs in multiple languages. I can go to Auburn for Turkish food, Hay markets for Chinese, Strathfield for Korean, Cambramatta for Vietnamese. I can turn up at a doctors surgery and see signs in multiple languages, I can turn up at hospital and see translation services in multiple languages. We have French speakers and food too and they provide a lot of culture too, I love having french bread and croissants. Italian coffee and Dutch cheese.

I'll take multicultural failure above zero-culture success of those who believe in mono-culture any day of the week.

[Moros]

AND I AM NOT STALKING YOU, MOROS! JUST BECAUSE I AM WRITING THIS ON MY LAPTOP PARKED IN THAT RED RENAULT OUTSIDE OF YOUR HOUSE IN PILSEN DOES NOT MEAN I STALK YOU, ALLRIGHT!? :furious3:

I do not even think you can see me from where you're sitting now on the second floor in the back of your house...

So that means it wasn't lightning I saw when putting on my pyjama's? :no:

[Centurion1]

Surely the rule is that you have to be another Balkan state/prinicpality/ethnic group before bashing your fellow Balkan?

Well as a member of the croatian nationality i would like to mention the utter absurdity of this. It makes sense to have everyone speaking the same language, but everyone knows that you start off by indoctrinating the immigrants children. Gosh, does anyone study the 1900's immigration to America......... :shame:

[Tribesman]

It makes sense to have everyone speaking the same language, but everyone knows that you start off by indoctrinating the immigrants children. Gosh, does anyone study the 1900's immigration to America.........
Is that the immigration episode where they found English was too hard a language so they had to invent their own local version?

[Kadagar_AV]

Sweden has done the same thing, so has Spain... And so has... ... ...

*yawn*

One country, one language... It helps nation building...

For americans arguing, do you think the president should hold all speaches in english aswell as spanish, italian, portugeese, swedish, irish.... Or are you satisfied if he speaks english only :idea2:

[Gregoshi]

For americans arguing, do you think the resident should hold all speaches in english aswell as spanish, italian, portugeese, swedish, irish.... Or are you satisfied if he speaks english only :idea2:
"Press 1 for English. Press 2 for Spanish." :laugh4:

[Papewaio]

Kennedy was a hit for trying to speak German.

There is a huge difference between having a single language for road signs, textbooks, government administration and fining someone a years salary for speaking another language at a public institution.

That it is aimed squarely at a resident minority and not tourism also reeks of racism. There are far worse things then terrorism, one of which is governments creating racist institutions.

[Beskar]

Kennedy was a hit for trying to speak German.

There is a huge difference between having a single language for road signs, textbooks, government administration and fining someone a years salary for speaking another language at a public institution.

That it is aimed squarely at a resident minority and not tourism also reeks of racism. There are far worse things then terrorism, one of which is governments creating racist institutions.

I know what you mean, all you need to be is "dark skinned" and running late for a train and pow. You get shot.

[Incongruous]

I can't believe people axtually think this is a good idea.

Not only is it illegal, racist and stupid, but it will stir up nationaly hatreds across eastern Europe. Oh and the Hungarians there have een around for a long, long time.

[Sarmatian]

.
Slovakia pass an act banning any language but Slovakian in public places and restricting the use of minority languages elsewhere too. Practically it's the Hungarians with their 10% population who will be effected most severely, and Gypsies. Those are details in my POV and any ban against any language I cannot regard human-like.

Even Turkey is getting ahead of this you know what steadily. It is really hard for me to restrain myself within the rules and find suitable words for this kind of zombie fascism.

One article here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8232878.stm), more can be looked up.
.


I think this is incorrectly represented by BBC.
This is really without reading anything on the issue, just a gut feeling that someone didn't do his homework properly before writing an article


Why am I not surprised...

Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0903/1224253743718.html)


About 7,000 people marched in the town of Dunajska Streda, close to Slovakia’s border with Hungary, in opposition to a law which stipulates that only the Slovak language can be used in most public offices and institutions, with repeat offenders threatened with a €5,000 fine.

The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe has said the law respects minority rights, but Hungarians denounced it as the latest act of discrimination from a ruling coalition that includes the far-right Slovak National Party. Its leader, Jan Slota, is known for his fiery rhetoric against Budapest, which ruled the territory of modern-day Slovakia until Austria-Hungary was broken up after the first World War.

Euro News (http://www.euronews.net/2009/09/01/slovak-hungarians-protest-at-new-language-law/)


The new law has stoked already heated tensions between the two countries – only last week the Slovaks told Hungary’s president he was not welcome to enter the country on a personal trip to unveil a statute of a Hungarian hero.

Although both languages are recognised in in some areas of Slovak life,

[HoreTore]

Mutual intelligability exists on multiple levels, the level at various periods between Scandanavia and England is instructive, as is the level within England. In both cases, I believe it depended on how far and often you traveled, but unity only comes with a written standard. When that was achieved in Norway I'm not sure, but it can't be before Cnut started using English missionaries to convert the populace.

HAH!

We don't have that either! :smash:

We have a total of three official written languages; bokmål(the norwegian version of danish), nynorsk(a mix of all the dialects, to make that it's unreadable for everyone) and sami.

Anyway, the fact is that there is just as much "huh?" going on when a norwegian and a swede talks to each other as it is when someone from Bergen and Trøndelag(or heaven forbid - western Telemark...) talks to each other.

Except that the swedes are idiots and don't understand anything. But that was kinda implied, methinks...

[Andres]

I also wonder what they're going to do about the tourists. Imo, they don't qualify as a minority or a language minority, so they are not protected by European legislation :book:

[HoreTore]

I also wonder what they're going to do about the tourists. Imo, they don't qualify as a minority or a language minority, so they are not protected by European legislation :book:

Well, as a potential tourist, I'm not more likely to go on a trip to Slovakia now... I prefer visiting states where they treat each other as humans, not animals.

[LeftEyeNine]

Well, still, being a tourist in Slovakia seems utterly troublesome from now on.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Why are some people talking about Slovakia and others about Slovenia?

[Meneldil]

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/fr.html
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/as.html

Life Expectancy: Australia 81.63 years, France 80.98. Points 1 : 0
Olympics... do we even need to look this up, let alone adjust per capita. 1 points to Aus, 1 to France for inventing it. 2: 1
Economy:
Unemployment Australia Unemployment half that of France 3:1
GDP per Capita: Australia $38k US, France $32k 4:1
Public Debt: Australia 14% of GDP, France 68% 5:1
Industrial Growth Rate: Australia 3%, France - 2% 7:1 (shrinkage is never sexy).

Japan life expectancy is over 82 and I can eat turkish and chinese food in France. What's your point? If you think the whole 'multicultural state' concept means eating french bakery and turkish kebabs, then I guess we have a definition issue.



It wouldn't sound bad to a frenchman! Your nation was built on destroying minority languages and doggedly defending modern french. At the time of the revolution only 10% of french people spoke french I believe.
You believe wrong. Most people spoke some form of french, even in the most remote areas, and sometimes even outside of officially french lands (Alsacian free states) most of the time with another local language. French had been the only language usable in official acts since the 16th (17th?) century. That's OOT though.


As for the main topic. Well, sad to say, but I don't give a crap. French is the only language usable in the french administration, yet tourists don't have huge problems getting their papers (not anymore than your usual frenchman). People working there can switch to english without being sued or sent to death camps by the state secret police. Get over it.

[Strike For The South]

Sweden has done the same thing, so has Spain... And so has... ... ...

*yawn*

One country, one language... It helps nation building...

For americans arguing, do you think the president should hold all speaches in english aswell as spanish, italian, portugeese, swedish, irish.... Or are you satisfied if he speaks english only :idea2:

The whole point is immagrants learn english anyway. Forcing them to do so would be counterproductive. You win people over with soft cultural not draconion measures on there speech.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'll take multicultural failure above zero-culture success of those who believe in mono-culture any day of the week.Yes, but between France and Australia its the latter that is by far the more monocultural country.

France has twice the number of non-Westerners. France's white immigrant population is far more diverse than Australia's too, owing to more diverse immigration. And the French of French stock are among the most diverse of Europe too.

It always seems to come as a surprise to people, but France has been a major immigration country for two centuries now. White French are more easily compared to a diverse population like the US than to countries that were mostly etnically homogenous up until around 1970, like Denmark, Portugal or Australia. The people that lived in France in 1800 are a minority nowadays.


In Australia, your mixed marriage is an exception. Consider this:

Brenus - English spouse
TristusKhan - Egyptian girlfriend
Meneldil - native American Canadian girlfriend, who mercilessly bosses him around
Louis - Spanish soon-to-be-girlfriend :knight:

See?

[Louis VI the Fat]

There are some notable differences, based on historical experience and political outlook, between France and the Germanic world. (Usually 'Germany' is mentioned, but I think it can be expanded to describe entire Northern Europe and its colonial off-shoots):

French nationalism: not the race, but the language and the Republican values are the focal point.
Germanic: the Volk is central. Race is the focal point.

France: linguistic and legal equality is seen as a progressive force, against the particularism of old. In the Germanic world, the demand for uniformity is reactionary.

French unification is inclusive. As the famous example goes, in Senegal, the children would read in history class: 'our ancestors, the Gauls...'
Germanic unification is exclusive.


There is a third Western world: Eastern Europe. The Slovakian measures fit in neither scheme above. They must be regarded in the context of Hungarian / Slovakian difficulties, and ferocious nationalism.

[Gregoshi]

Why are some people talking about Slovakia and others about Slovenia?
They should Czech their posts more carefully.

[Adrian II]

It always seems to come as a surprise to people, but France has been a major immigration country for two centuries now.I keep repeating the same thing about the Netherlands, referring to the influx of Germans, Italians, Spaniards, Sephardim, French Huguenots, Scottish Puritans in the seventeenth century and to the (historically) recent influx of over three million immigrants from all over the world.

In my lifetime I count 300.000 immigrants from the former Indonesia, 370.000 from the former colony of Surinam, 372.000 Turks, 325.000 Moroccans, 183.000 Africans, 110.000 Latino's, to name but a few major groups.

Together, recent immigrants make up almost one-fifth of the Dutch population.

Yet we have no major riots, no explosive banlieus, no urban guerillas.

We're a team. We're doing fine, comparatively. :smug:

Oops, sorry. Wrong rhetoric. We stink to high heaven, of course. We're the beachhead of Eurabia! Our streets are teaming with gangs that speak a thousand languages, whole cities have been taken over by foreign forces, we keep our women and children in the home and barricade our doors at night. Soon the last living Dutchman will turn our the lights and emigrate to Canada.

[Adrian II]

They should Czech their posts more carefully.Slovenes are just as power-Hungary.

[Furunculus]

There are some notable differences, based on historical experience and political outlook, between France and the Germanic world. (Usually 'Germany' is mentioned, but I think it can be expanded to describe entire Northern Europe and its colonial off-shoots):

French nationalism: not the race, but the language and the Republican values are the focal point.
Germanic: the Volk is central. Race is the focal point.

France: linguistic and legal equality is seen as a progressive force, against the particularism of old. In the Germanic world, the demand for uniformity is reactionary.

French unification is inclusive. As the famous example goes, in Senegal, the children would read in history class: 'our ancestors, the Gauls...'
Germanic unification is exclusive.


There is a third Western world: Eastern Europe. The Slovakian measures fit in neither scheme above. They must be regarded in the context of Hungarian / Slovakian difficulties, and ferocious nationalism.

how broad is your definition of germanic, arguably anglo-saxon britain might be included, but i wouldn't say britain was charachterised by ethnic nationalism, civic nationalism would be closer to the mark.

which definition of particularism are you branding countries with?

[Rhyfelwyr]

They should Czech their posts more carefully.

Brilliant. :laugh4:


Scottish Puritans

You mean Scottish Presbyterians! :whip:

[Mithrandir]

They should Czech their posts more carefully.

Before they Finnish them?

So... W.A.T.T. ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Furunculus, yes, I meant for the UK to be in the Northern Europe camp on this one. What with those dreams of populating the earth with members of the Anglosaxon race and all that.

Cecil Rhodes - there he is again-: 'Wouldn't it be a blessing to the world if those areas that are currently populated by the most wretched members of the human species were settled by members of the Anglo-Saxon race?'

Then two entire continents were genocided.



Together, recent immigrants make up almost one-fifth of the Dutch population.

Yet we have no major riots, no explosive banlieus, no urban guerillas.

We're a team. We're doing fine, comparatively. :smug:That's great, Adrian!

You take a Switzerland. You let wanton mass immigration turn it into some sort of Brazil. And then you thumb your chest that you are not as completely run into the ground as South Africa yet.


Bless those rose-coloured multi-cultural sunglasses! Nothing to see here, move along! :smash:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Slovenes are just as power-Hungary.Ah, a bit of the old Punnonia...

[Banquo's Ghost]

Gentlemen,

Enough of the "tourist" and variant spam please. Point and joke is made.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

[Adrian II]

That's great, Adrian!

You take a Switzerland. You let wanton mass immigration turn it into some sort of Brazil. And then you thumb your chest that you are not as completely run into the ground as South Africa yet.I like the comparison. Swiss money, Brazilian style, Dutch courage. What's not to like, you jealous frog?

Seriously, why would you not recognize that we're doing well comparatively? Around the corner where I live some people speak languages that I have never heard of, yet when our national team play they wear orange caps and live inside their tv.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Together, recent immigrants make up almost one-fifth of the Dutch population.

Yet we have no major riots, no explosive banlieus, no urban guerillas.

No, you have Fragony.

[Adrian II]

No, you have Fragony.He's from Czechoslovenia.

[Viking]

Mutual intelligability exists on multiple levels, the level at various periods between Scandanavia and England is instructive, as is the level within England. In both cases, I believe it depended on how far and often you traveled, but unity only comes with a written standard. When that was achieved in Norway I'm not sure, but it can't be before Cnut started using English missionaries to convert the populace.


Yep, but otherwise Hungarian is mutually intellibigle with Slovakian, dragging Scandinavian into this does not become quite as apt. As HT said, lingual unity has not yet been achieved in Norway (even if you exclude the Sami), neither spoken nor written. As I said though, I'm pretty certain that the unity was much greater in the Viking age, both written and spoken. After the Black Death, Norwegian as a written standard gradually went pretty much extinct. As the language got resurrected in its written form in the 1800ds; two competing variants arose, and both still exist today (one is closest to mentioned western Norwegian, other to eastern Norwegian).

Point is: not all countries of today came to an apparent lingual unity via discriminating minorities.

[Beskar]

Should just adopt English as the official second language. Would solve all the problems everywhere.

[Brenus]

“Brenus - English spouse” with Irish origin!!!!

[Major Robert Dump]

Tourists in Slovakia? LAWL

[HoreTore]

The US built itself by enforcing the WASP ideal over the various newcomers.

Integrating the italian immigrants was a pain, nobody speaks french anymore except in some parts of the Maine and Louisiana and I doubt anyone would say that latinos' integration into the national community is a huge success so far.

I'd suggest you read how french as a language was wipped off the face of the British colonies/the newborn US. It wasn't 'hey dude, I know you have your own language, but you know speaking english would be cool too', but more among the lines of 'French is banned, period.' I'm not even going into the whole irish situation, the japanese and chinese cases and so on.

Of course, things are different now, because banning spanish or openly discriminating the latinos would be foolish, but if you think the US were built as a multicultural state, you're fooling yourself.

I'm sorry, I missed that one.

But anyway, I'll take your US failure and raise you....

Switzerland.

Beat that.

[Papewaio]

Yes, but between France and Australia its the latter that is by far the more monocultural country.

France has twice the number of non-Westerners. France's white immigrant population is far more diverse than Australia's too, owing to more diverse immigration. And the French of French stock are among the most diverse of Europe too.

It always seems to come as a surprise to people, but France has been a major immigration country for two centuries now. White French are more easily compared to a diverse population like the US than to countries that were mostly etnically homogenous up until around 1970, like Denmark, Portugal or Australia. The people that lived in France in 1800 are a minority nowadays.

Uphill battle for you.

25% of current Australians were born overseas (I'm Swedish/Welsh/English/Scottish/Irish/French born in Fiji).

Europeans didn't even settle within Australia until 1824. Only 2.6% of the Population is Aboriginal Australian or Torres Strait Island... that means since the 1800's 97% of the population is immigrant...



In Australia, your mixed marriage is an exception. Consider this:

Brenus - English spouse
TristusKhan - Egyptian girlfriend
Meneldil - native American Canadian girlfriend, who mercilessly bosses him around
Louis - Spanish soon-to-be-girlfriend :knight:

See?

I know the last part is a joke, but I love stats:
"Recent marriage patterns of overseas-born Australians There were 76,200 brides and 81,400 grooms born overseas in the three-year period 1996-98. Across all of these marriages, around 30 per cent, for both brides and grooms, were between partners in the same birthplace group. The other 70 per cent were mixed marriages, comprising about 30 per cent of marriages with long-time Australians and 40 per cent with other people from a different birthplace group. Overall, overseas-born brides were marginally more likely than overseas-born grooms to have married within their birthplace group."

Recent marriage patterns of second-generation Australians There were more marriages of second-generation brides (88,100) and grooms (86,600) than there were of overseas-born people in the same three-year period. Marriage patterns among this group differed from those of overseas-born people. These differences were more marked for some birthplace groups than for others.
A larger proportion of these marriages (80 per cent each of brides and grooms) were mixed marriages than was the case for overseas- born people. These mixed marriages were evenly divided between those marrying long-time Australians and those marrying other people outside their birthplace group. For nearly every birthplace group listed, second-generation Australians had a greater propensity to marry long-time Australians than did overseas-born Australians. Exceptions were brides from the Philippines, where the proportion was much lower, and brides and grooms from New Zealand, where the proportions were slightly lower. For some birthplace groups, notably Viet Nam, China, the Federal Republic of Germany, India, Hong Kong, Poland, and the Former Yugoslav Republic, this difference was very marked. In addition, over half of second-generation brides and grooms with at least one parent born in New Zealand, Viet Nam, China, Philippines, India, Malaysia, Hong Kong or Poland, married someone from a different birthplace group other than a long-time Australian. For all of these birthplace groups the proportion doing so was much greater than for the corresponding group of overseas-born people.
http://www.entrenous.com.au/articles/resources_mixed_marriages_in_australia.pdf