City Walls

[Urg]

When I'm attacking cities in EB that have large garrisons, I always find it much easier to capture a city with 'small' wooden walls than the 'large' stone walls. I think this is mainly because large walls allow the attacker to use siege towers, and the AI never seem to run along the walls to meet an attack.

Conversely, I find it slightly easier to defend a city with small walls. This is because if the enemy capture a stone wall section/tower, it starts firing on my own troops down below.

This issue always jars me slightly because stone walls are meant to be a better defence.

I'm guessing this is probably a hardcoded problem due to RTW (I'm not blaming the EB team). But is it something that is fixed in M2TW, or which can be fixed in EBII?

Finally, in the words of Blxz:


Not sure what your idea's are with everything in EB2 and whether you have already got other plans or whatnot or even if you take suggestions from randoms such as myself; but I thought that I would throw this out there and see if anyone from the team (or not from the team) has an opinion.

[DaciaJC]

I always find that defending a city with a large stone wall is much easier than defending one with wooden walls - you have an extreme height advantage where archers, slingers, and skirmishers can devastate enemy units, and there are multiple towers firing a limitless supply of arrows (unrealistic to say the least, but there's no way around it) to those on the ground. And since enemy units using siege towers or ladders will attack you individually or in pairs, you will always have local numerical superiority to crush them.

Perversely, though, I find that defending a city with huge stone walls is more difficult than one with simply a large stone wall or the Celtic wall - the siege towers fire ballistas, which can thin out your troops on the wall very quickly.

[Puupertti Ruma]

Due to the Medieval 2: Total War settlements being medieval, and as modifying battle map settlements is very hard if not outright impossible, it is quite a mystery what the EB team will and can do to remedy the situation. There was some progress made in settlement building editing about a year ago when some Spanish guy could see the 3d models of the buildings from the hexcode of m2tw. Has anyone got more updated news of this breakthrough, or of any other breakthrough in the settlement modding scene?

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I think its best to mod the larger seige towers to fire arrows instead of ballista bolts. That way half a unit isn't decimated waiting to fight the attackers coming out of the tower. And it makes those large stone walls actually useful compared to standard stone walls.

[Darius]

It would certainly be nice to maybe actually see an archer and/or slinger or two stationed at the top of the siege tower actually firing rather than just having the arrows/bullets materializing from nowhere. Yea it might not be feasible but it would certainly add to the realism of it all.

[Urg]

I always find that defending a city with a large stone wall is much easier than defending one with wooden walls...

Thinking again about my initial post, Frontline is probably right. Generally speaking, if I have a significant sized garrison I sally against the besieging army. The only time I would actually battle to defend a city against a siege is where I have a relatively small garrison. This is when stone walls cause me a problem, because I do not have enough troops to defend the walls and the gates at the same time, and my troops end up getting fired on my the walls once they are captured. The problem doesn't arise with wooden walls. Maybe this is not a problem at all? I'm not sure.

On the other hand, The problem with attacking walls is a much more serious one because its far easier to capture an AI city with stone walls than one with wooden walls.

The solutions I can think of to this issue is as follows (forgive my presumption, oh holy eb team):

- making stone walls more dangerous for attackers (does this make them unhistorical, ie too much like medieval walls? how common were high stone walls in ancient times?)
- limiting the utility of siege towers such as by limiting the time it takes to build them or the ease with which they can be set on fire (were siege towers actually used in ancient times??)
- assisting AI troops to run around on top of walls to meet attacks (this is the most important)
- prevent the stone walls/towers from firing on 'home' garrison troops even when those towers are captured by an enemy

[Prussian to the Iron]

wait wait wait....Siege Towers fired ballista bolts in EB1?!!?!!? where was I?!

[athanaric]

wait wait wait....Siege Towers fired ballista bolts in EB1?!!?!!? where was I?!

In case you haven't noticed, the large siege towers in RTW (those used for large and huge stone walls) have synchronized gatling ballistas mounted on them. Impressive technology, especially seeing as even the Barbarian and Nomad factions can field them...

[Prussian to the Iron]

i honestly never knew that they fired, and i got the game only a couple months after release! amazing that i missed that...

then again, i never knew you could merge until i got E:TW so...

[bobbin]

The first level of stone wall is the best, it has all the benifits of a stone wall without the evil seige towers you get with the larger walls.

Thinking again about my initial post, Frontline is probably right. Generally speaking, if I have a significant sized garrison I sally against the besieging army. The only time I would actually battle to defend a city against a siege is where I have a relatively small garrison. This is when stone walls cause me a problem, because I do not have enough troops to defend the walls and the gates at the same time, and my troops end up getting fired on my the walls once they are captured. The problem doesn't arise with wooden walls. Maybe this is not a problem at all? I'm not sure. . Don't trying to guard the gates 9 times out of 10 the ram gets set on fire, once you realise this defending stone walls is easy, I've held off of armies of thousands with 6 units in the past.



On the other hand, The problem with attacking walls is a much more serious one because its far easier to capture an AI city with stone walls than one with wooden walls. Really? I've always found taking stone walled cities is far more costly as you have to fight the enemy on the walls which always results in more deaths. With wooden walls its essentially a normal straightforward fight, just knock a few holes in it and use missle troops to drive the defenders away from the breaches.

[DaciaJC]

Really? I've always found taking stone walled cities is far more costly as you have to fight the enemy on the walls which always results in more deaths. With wooden walls its essentially a normal straightforward fight, just knock a few holes in it and use missle troops to drive the defenders away from the breaches.

:yes: A few archers and skirmishers firing into the sides and rear of enemies as they run around like headless chickens makes the assault a much easier and quicker process.

[antisocialmunky]

Syracusian Death Ray Towers.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Syracusian Death Ray Towers.

Epic. :daisy: Win.

[athanaric]

Syracusian Death Ray Towers.

You know, we should make an "Ancient Science Fiction" submod for EB...

[Prussian to the Iron]

lol, we could make like enormous walls in Troy and have you attacking them with that one siege tower at Crete (can't remember the name) that was like the biggest ever made!

[Azathoth]

lol, we could make like enormous walls in Troy and have you attacking them with that one siege tower at Crete (can't remember the name) that was like the biggest ever made!

That was the Heliopolis in Rhodes.

I don't remember the walls in Troy being that big. Why not just make walls 1000 feet thick and high if you want science fiction? Think of armored cavalry charging thousands of spearmen off the edge of the wall (into a moat of lava).

[Prussian to the Iron]

and then, as an easter egg, we could have anakin skywalker sitting on the edge of the lava!

[DaciaJC]

Getting dangerously off-topic, doncha think?

In sum, I believe walls are fine as they are (though if a case could be made to include murus dacicus, I'd be delighted) but for those ballista-firing siege towers. If they could be modded to fire arrows, that would be incentive enough to upgrade from normal to huge stone walls.

[Prussian to the Iron]

wait, what? If the enemies siege tower fired fire arrows (unlimited of course) then it would be incetive to build bigger walls so they can shoot more guys wiht fire arrows?

or are you saying have wall towers fire fire arrows?

[DaciaJC]

I don't believe I once put two "fire"-s side by side. No, just regular arrows. When an enemy is attacking your huge stone walls, they will build siege towers that fire ballistas. These ballistas can take a major toll on your wall troops (and I don't believe they're very realistic, anyway). So I tend to just stick to normal stone walls because the siege towers built to attack those walls fire only regular arrows.

[Prussian to the Iron]

ok i see what you're saying now. well, i never noticed it, so either i just didnt pay attention, or...i dont know. but yes, firing arrows from siege towers would be nice.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Getting dangerously off-topic, doncha think?

In sum, I believe walls are fine as they are (though if a case could be made to include murus dacicus, I'd be delighted) but for those ballista-firing siege towers. If they could be modded to fire arrows, that would be incentive enough to upgrade from normal to huge stone walls.

Its not that hard to mod this. Even someone as ignorant as me can fix it.:sweatdrop:

Go into your EB folder, and search for a file named descr_engines. Look for medium tower (tower for large stone walls which are the largest you can get in EB) and look for two parts of the description. At the top, change the projectile from scorpion to arrow, then scroll down a bit. You'll see this...

attack_stat 12, 2, scorpion, 120, 30, siege_missile, siege, piercing
attack_stat_attr ap, bp, launching

Replace that with this....

attack_stat 8, 2, arrow, 100, 100, missile, archery, piercing
attack_stat_attr ap


Now you should have large towers that are not intensely deadly but will still pick off a few wall defenders on their way.

You can also mod the frequency of the firing but I didn't want to mess with that.

[antisocialmunky]

Actually, THIS would be a better easter egg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM2ToLRfz-U

"Oh, that's weird, why is the Colossus appearing under the army display?"
"Its probably just a new way of displaying the thing better I guess.."
*Starts Siege Of Rhodes*
"Wait... is that thing... movi-OHMYGOD!!!":laugh4:

@ Robin - Is there anyway to add more weapon mounts to siege towers? It would be nice if we had many more weaker weapons like they had in real life.

[Prussian to the Iron]

lol, Kratos unit with epic epicness packed with win.

[Cambyses]

MTW2 has some advantages in this regard in that the towers are only activated if there are defenders nearby - and cannot be used by the attackers. However, this can also be exploited when attacking the AI. On the other hand it seems far harder - in fact almost impossible - to set fire to siege equipment. Lastly the AI appears far dumber when attacking than it ever did in RTW. Basically it loves to charge all its troops at once through the main gate onto your spears...

[jazstl]

Yes, I won a hundred of times usnig this trick...

Gate towers, should fire balista ammo others only arrows...Just a proposal...:idea2:

[DaciaJC]

Gate towers, should fire balista ammo others only arrows...Just a proposal...:idea2:

:inquisitive:

The towers are already overpowered... no need to have some of them firing ballistas now.


Its not that hard to mod this. Even someone as ignorant as me can fix it.

Go into your EB folder, and search for a file named descr_engines. Look for medium tower (tower for large stone walls which are the largest you can get in EB) and look for two parts of the description. At the top, change the projectile from scorpion to arrow, then scroll down a bit. You'll see this...

attack_stat 12, 2, scorpion, 120, 30, siege_missile, siege, piercing
attack_stat_attr ap, bp, launching

Replace that with this....

attack_stat 8, 2, arrow, 100, 100, missile, archery, piercing
attack_stat_attr ap


Now you should have large towers that are not intensely deadly but will still pick off a few wall defenders on their way.

You can also mod the frequency of the firing but I didn't want to mess with that.

Have a :balloon2:, mate!

[Urg]

In sum, I believe walls are fine as they are

With stone walls, the AI always line up their troops on the part of the wall facing your troops, but they never move, unless your troops are on the walls close by to them. This makes its very easy simply to move your siege towers around to the undefended side of the wall and get atop the battlements.

Next, you keep moving lots of your troops (especially the ones with arrows, javelins, etc) onto the wall. The AI troops in the city (ie not on the walls) will race around underneath your troops, allowing your troops to fire missiles at them and allowing your captured wall-towers to fire at them too.

Eventually, when the enemy is sufficiently weakened, you can then move some of your troops into the city proper (ie on the ground). Once you have a number of troops inside the city, the AI will pull all their troops off the wall, allowing you to capture the entire wall and all the wall-towers.

The AI will continue to run around getting fired on until they are sufficiently weakened, at which point they retreat to the city-centre. By then they should be easy fodder for your troops.

This is quite different to laying siege to a city with wooden walls. There are some tricks that can be used to allow your troops to march into a city with wooden walls without fighting an enemy at the gates. But eventually the AI troops must be defeated using regular tactics.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

@ Robin - Is there anyway to add more weapon mounts to siege towers? It would be nice if we had many more weaker weapons like they had in real life.

I don't believe towers can fire any more than one type of missile but you could mod them to fire any type of missile in the game I believe. If you wanted javilins or rocks to represent men tossing those types of missiles you could. However, still only one type unless I'm mistaken. Someone with more knowledge of modding might be able to help you better here.

@ Frontline - thanks my first balloon:2thumbsup:

[antisocialmunky]

How about just more missiles from many mounts?

[Prussian to the Iron]

???

I'm pretty sure you could change the misile type based on the culture of the faction using the siege tower, (if you check in Export_descr_Units.txt, you can see that each arty is a different culture. I'm sure this could be applied to siege towers) and make it so that maybe Egyptians and Seleucids would have arrow-firing siege towers, whereas maybe Romans and the other north african factions would use javelins, while Greeks and barbarians would use slings. Of course, this would mean that each of these factions would have to either:

A) Have their own cultures
or
B) Be changed to a culture that makes no sense for them (like Greeks defined as the same culture as Gauls, Germans and Britons)

I don't know if there is a culture limit, so if, say, the barbarian factions were all 1 culture and had sling-using siege towers, and then a Greek culture would be made doing the same, but with a required new siege tower (not necessarily a new model or textures, but just a new entry).

I think that Javelins, Arrows and stones would be best projectiles from different siege towers. of course having all would be ideal, but of course we are unsure if it would work.

[Azathoth]

I don't think they really used slingers and javelineers at all on siege towers. A few slingers really can't do as much as a dozen ballistas and stone-throwers.

[Prussian to the Iron]

but they also didn't use infinite-ammo ballistae on them, nor did they have infinite ammo archers. I think that slingers and javelins isnt too far of a stretch; you use what you can. if that means throwing or sligning rocks, then so be it.

[DaciaJC]

Siege towers have a limited set of ammo. If you leave "fire at will" on from the very beginning of the assault, it's likely that your tower ammo will be depleted by the time the towers reach the wall.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

???

I'm pretty sure you could change the misile type based on the culture of the faction using the siege tower, (if you check in Export_descr_Units.txt, you can see that each arty is a different culture. I'm sure this could be applied to siege towers) and make it so that maybe Egyptians and Seleucids would have arrow-firing siege towers, whereas maybe Romans and the other north african factions would use javelins, while Greeks and barbarians would use slings. Of course, this would mean that each of these factions would have to either:

A) Have their own cultures
or
B) Be changed to a culture that makes no sense for them (like Greeks defined as the same culture as Gauls, Germans and Britons)

I don't know if there is a culture limit, so if, say, the barbarian factions were all 1 culture and had sling-using siege towers, and then a Greek culture would be made doing the same, but with a required new siege tower (not necessarily a new model or textures, but just a new entry).

I think that Javelins, Arrows and stones would be best projectiles from different siege towers. of course having all would be ideal, but of course we are unsure if it would work.

Siege towers are universal, as in, there is no way to change the siege towers from the ones the Romans use to the ones the Saka use. As for mounts, no idea. I think thats a modeling issue and I know nothing about modeling. What I wish was possible was for men to be already inside the tower when it docks so that they can immediately pour out. That would be more realistic IMO.

[DaciaJC]

What I wish for is that half a unit wouldn't get stuck at the bottom of the siege tower when running in. It's a pain to get all of them up the tower when that happens.

[Prussian to the Iron]

ive enever had a problem getting my men up a siege tower; though i have had a clipping problem when about 50 men occupy the same rung on the ladder up it...

[antisocialmunky]

The pathfinding for walls is atrocious. Order one unit at a time on walls, otherwise its horrible horrible pain.

[Prussian to the Iron]

...I thought you could only move one unit on the walls at a time; it gives you an 'X' if you try more than 1 at once.

[antisocialmunky]

Well yes, I'm talking about if you have multiple units and order them all onto the wall one by one before the previous unit gets in place, the previous units will stop and bug out.

This is MIITW I'm talkin about BTW.

[Prussian to the Iron]

I know. I've never had that problem. I've had semi-retarded troops ordered to get on the other side (inside) of the wall, and then proceed to move all the way back down the ladders, through the gate, and then rout due to the like 20 guys left.

[Cambyses]

A lot of the issues that people raise here are only relevant for RTW. There is a whole other set of issues with attacking towns/castles in MIITW. Im not sure exactly what the EB team can or cannot do, but I imagine we will be looking back at the ballista towers and "5 men running around in circles at the bottom of the siege tower" with considerable fondness.

One good thing though is that you can take control of the centre plaza of a city simply by having an overwhelming numerological advantage - rather than killing everything in existence.

[antisocialmunky]

Well... if you units actually make it to the town center.... Most mods solve the pathfinding in cities issues pretty well though.

Also... I saw Uruk-hai Pikemen in TATW in pike formation on the walls of Isengard... I fear trying to take the walls of Athens now...

[Prussian to the Iron]

Now I really want to play TATW again, but its at my grandmas house!! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!