Death, Taxes, and Fat People

[Strike For The South]

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE5806E520090901

Should there be an extra tax added to food the packs on the pounds? One could argue that the extra cost of taking care of these human ball o doughs demands that there lifestyle get taxed. We already do this kind of thing for cigs and alcohol and everyone cheers.

Of course fat people would complain we were stepping to much into there personal lives however one must realize that they are cramping socities personal lives by burdening the system and costing gobs of cash (rascals cost money!)

Now in principle I'm opposed to these extra taxes, however if we already do it for "vices" why is the biggest vice in America not taxed?

[Meneldil]

I say let's tax sex.

[seireikhaan]

I say go ahead. Tax sugar, tax high-fructose corn syrup, tax lard, tax grease. Will it hurt some businesses? Yeah. Will it hurt the economy as a whole? I think not. Will it help alleviate budget stress? Mhm.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

No, I don't agree with vice taxes.

[drone]

No tax on the food. Instead, come April 15th, subject everyone to an age-adjusted physical fitness test. Failing grades result in an extra tax tacked onto the standard IRS's take. Double rate penalties for failing dependents. :yes:

[Craterus]

Depends who's paying for the healthcare. If it's the government, they're justified in putting a tax on the cause of the problem. That way, fatty food pays for itself.

If fat people are willing to pay for their own bypasses, whatever.

[Hosakawa Tito]

You can't afford your grocery bill now. Wutcha gonna do when they start adding sin taxes to those snack-paks?

[Whacker]

The problem is that crap that's unhealthy is:

1. Generally cheaper.
2. Generally quicker and easier.
3. Tastes far better.

and the healthy stuff is:

1. Generally more expensive.
2. Quite often not quick or easy to prepare.
3. Tastes like CRAP!

The reason I gained weight after college was easily due to those 3 factors, plus I've always liked to eat "good" food. The ticket is to make the healthy stuff taste better, make it cheaper, and be something as simple as popping it in the microwave or oven and that's it. Neither my wife or I want to spend the time cooking crap when we're done with work, we're tired and nasty and hungry.

Taxing food is not the way to go and doesn't attack the core of the problem, IMO.

:balloon2:

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm very against it and other attempts to legislate how people run their lives. Of course some people can't accept not being able to run other's lives.

Also, fat people die earlier and so cost the health care system less overall.

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I'm very against it and other attempts to legislate how people run their lives. Of course some people can't accept not being able to run other's lives.

Also, fat people die earlier and so cost the health care system less overall.

CR

This.

[seireikhaan]

I'm very against it and other attempts to legislate how people run their lives. Of course some people can't accept not being able to run other's lives.

Also, fat people die earlier and so cost the health care system less overall.

CR
1) Fat people do not necessarily die earlier. Being fat is not a quick death sentence, it only makes it more likely.

2) Currently, only one (http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.html) US state has an obesity rate under 20%. In other words, over one in five americans is obese. That is a drain on health care. IE- Diabetes (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27405027/ns/health-diabetes/).

You don't fix skyrocketing health care costs without making people have to be more personally accountable, and if you have do do that on the point of a sales tax, I'm all for it.

[HoreTore]

An active fat guy is healthier than an inactive skinny guy. Fact.

But still; remove the VAT on stuff like fruit and veggies, add a few % on sugar-stuff, I have nothing against that. The current situation is, like Whacker says, that it's expensive to live a healthy life. It should be the other way around.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

1) Fat people do not necessarily die earlier. Being fat is not a quick death sentence, it only makes it more likely.

2) Currently, only one (http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.html) US state has an obesity rate under 20%. In other words, over one in five americans is obese. That is a drain on health care. IE- Diabetes (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27405027/ns/health-diabetes/).

You don't fix skyrocketing health care costs without making people have to be more personally accountable, and if you have do do that on the point of a sales tax, I'm all for it.

A sales tax is a poor solution though. You can eat unhealthy food, as long as you don't eat too much.

It would be like taxing bathing suits to pay for the costs of skin cancer.

[seireikhaan]

A sales tax is a poor solution though. You can eat unhealthy food, as long as you don't eat too much.

It would be like taxing bathing suits to pay for the costs of skin cancer.
If you feel this is a poor solution, then I assume you have an alternative?

[Crazed Rabbit]

1) Fat people do not necessarily die earlier. Being fat is not a quick death sentence, it only makes it more likely.
We're talking about averages, aren't we?


You don't fix skyrocketing health care costs without making people have to be more personally accountable, and if you have do do that on the point of a sales tax, I'm all for it.

Well make them more accountable for health care costs by letting insurance companies charge unhealthy people more. Sasaki is right; don't charge more tax on some red herring item.

CR

[drone]

If you feel this is a poor solution, then I assume you have an alternative?


come April 15th, subject everyone to an age-adjusted physical fitness test. Failing grades result in an extra tax tacked onto the standard IRS's take. Double rate penalties for failing dependents.
What, you think I was kidding with this? :smash:

If we are going to go socialist on the health care in this country, we may as well go all out. Yearly physicals/check-ups, which includes a certified fitness test. If you are rich and don't care, let yourself go. If you want to keep a few hundred bucks from Uncle Sam, make sure you (and your kids) don't get into the obese category. Pushups, situps, pullups, timed runs, etc. Think old-school Presidential Physical Fitness Test, but with money on the line.

Putting a tax on fatty/sugary foods will not solve the problem and is inherently unfair. Some people stay in shape regardless of their food choices. Creating a tax scheme for "unhealthy" foods would be a mess, and would be rife for abuse by special interests.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If you feel this is a poor solution, then I assume you have an alternative?

I think drone is on the right track. I haven't thought about it in depth. Seems like a problem with it could be that the gov has to pay money to evaluate the health of it's citizens--how much would it cost?

They are very strict about it in japan I believe. I imagine a good place to start would be to look at the pros and cons of their system. I got the impression that their primary focus wasn't cutting costs though, more like keeping people thin.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I don't see it as expensive to live a healthy life. Make a list on the weekend. Shop for the week. Plan a weekly menu, and buy a five- or ten-minute recipe cookbook. Eating healthy is not hard or time consuming if you do it properly.

[Xiahou]

1) Fat people do not necessarily die earlier. Being fat is not a quick death sentence, it only makes it more likely.

Is that really true though? I used to believe that fat people, being obviously unhealthy, should be able to be charged more for healthcare. But does the data back this up? I'm not so sure. Studies often link waist sizes with health problems and death, but bigger waistlines also correlate with advancing age.

Here's (http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2009/04/does-it-really-matter-how-your-numbers.html) some interesting analysis of the data behind the headlines. Indeed, being underweight shortens your lifespan more (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.c7aaeb7940626693fa418a1eab2291f6.81&show_article=1) than being overweight, making the Japanese overzealous "metabo" campaign look pretty stupid.

I've seen morbidly obese people who can't get up a flight of stairs without panting for breath- clearly these people aren't healthy. But, I don't think being overweight is a silver bullet when it comes to predicting health. Activity level and exercise might be a better metric (http://weight-loss-methods.suite101.com/article.cfm/exercise_improves_health_more_than_weight_loss), but that's a lot harder to monitor without intruding on someone's privacy.
A 25-year study of fitness, weight, and mortality among 25,000 men found that inactive, thin men were twice as likely to die as active, overweight men. In addition, other studies have found physical fitness to have more influence on the heart disease mortality of older men than hypertension, heart disease, smoking, or body weight.

[Mooks]

As a completely fit, active, healthy eating young male; this thread raises my ego up a notch.


:2thumbsup:

[Beskar]

Tax fast-food and all-you-can-eat. The restaurant industry would really hate you though.

Don't put the tax on the food itself.

[Hosakawa Tito]

The older population with their bigger waistlines not only have a majority, they also tend to vote more too.... Yeah, majority rule can be a :daisy:. Praise the Lord and pass the tax-free ho ho's subsidized by you tragically fit, active, healthy eating whippersnappers...

[Don Corleone]

Wow... first you guys are all lined up to deny people choices in their healthcare... then you claim the responsibility for health care entitles the state to draconian measures on controlling people's lifestyles.

What a pathetic joke America/Western liberalism has turned out to be. This why i don't come to the org so much anymore. I used to think people here were trolling... now I kind of realize you represent society... that everyone just feels entitled to tell the rest of the population what to do, no matter how intrusive, silly or banal.

I think I need more Frontroom time. Have fun dominating the universe boys.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Wow... first you guys are all lined up to deny people choices in their healthcare... then you claim the responsibility for health care entitles the state to draconian measures on controlling people's lifestyles.

What a pathetic joke America/Western liberalism has turned out to be. This why i don't come to the org so much anymore. I used to think people here were trolling... now I kind of realize you represent society... that everyone just feels entitled to tell the rest of the population what to do, no matter how intrusive, silly or banal.

I think I need more Frontroom time. Have fun dominating the universe boys.

Who is supporting the taxes? :dizzy2:

besides horetore


SFT,Khaan and Xiahou seem somewhat supportive or on the fence, are you counting them as liberals?

[HoreTore]

Wow... first you guys are all lined up to deny people choices in their healthcare... then you claim the responsibility for health care entitles the state to draconian measures on controlling people's lifestyles.

What a pathetic joke America/Western liberalism has turned out to be. This why i don't come to the org so much anymore. I used to think people here were trolling... now I kind of realize you represent society... that everyone just feels entitled to tell the rest of the population what to do, no matter how intrusive, silly or banal.

I think I need more Frontroom time. Have fun dominating the universe boys.

To make it even more scary for you....

The socialist, ie. me, does not support this... :clown:

[drone]

Wow... first you guys are all lined up to deny people choices in their healthcare... then you claim the responsibility for health care entitles the state to draconian measures on controlling people's lifestyles.

If those choices are taken away, and everyone's health care is paid for with tax dollars, then why shouldn't there be intrusion and control? Preventative measures would cut costs and be more efficient in the long term. How would this be any different than welfare reform? Didn't the stories about welfare mothers pumping out kids for more benefits tick you off back in the day? How would you feel if your tax dollars were responsible for treating the problems of obese children because their parents don't feed them properly?

I don't support a tax on unhealthy foods. Really, how would "unhealthy" be defined in any meaningful or fair way? I also don't support socialized medicine. But if that is the way we are going, we may as well go all out. Half-***ing it will only lead to waste and more trouble down the road.

[Strike For The South]

Wow... first you guys are all lined up to deny people choices in their healthcare... then you claim the responsibility for health care entitles the state to draconian measures on controlling people's lifestyles.

What a pathetic joke America/Western liberalism has turned out to be. This why i don't come to the org so much anymore. I used to think people here were trolling... now I kind of realize you represent society... that everyone just feels entitled to tell the rest of the population what to do, no matter how intrusive, silly or banal.

I think I need more Frontroom time. Have fun dominating the universe boys.

I'm merley playing devils advocate Don. We already tax Cigs and alcohol and some people can smoke for 80 years and others can drink a whole keg and have no long term health effects. Just like some people can eat all the crap they want and stay healthy. The fact is these foods contribuite more to the American health problem than any other yet they aren't taxed.

The goverment controlls your life everyday. Putting fatty foods with other "vices" hardly seems a stretch. IIRC gluttony is a deadly sin while drunkness and chain smoking are no where to be found.

If this is going to happen we may as well tax the biggest drain on the system . I still want to be able to pay for this monstrosity. So damn peoples feelings and for once lets do something we can pat for.

[Major Robert Dump]

YOU CAN HAVE MY CHICKEN FRIED STEAK WHEN YOU PRY IT FROM MY COLD, CLAMMY, BLUE LIPS

[naut]

Tax fatty foods?

What the hell am I as a Uni student going to be able to afford now? And what about those times at 2am on a Sunday were I need a booze meal?

Thanks, but no thanks.

[HoreTore]

Tax fatty foods?

What the hell am I as a Uni student going to be able to afford now? And what about those times at 2am on a Sunday were I need a booze meal?

Thanks, but no thanks.

Why do people believe that "taxing fatty foods" means that you can't reduce the tax on healthier food at the same time?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Why do people believe that "taxing fatty foods" means that you can't reduce the tax on healthier food at the same time?

I think it's crazy that we here in Europe pay tax on essential foods (lettuce and so on) at all. In Ontario, which has to be one of the higher taxed provinces in Canada, the tax on essentials is - wait for it - 0%.

[HoreTore]

I think it's crazy that we here in Europe pay tax on essential foods (lettuce and so on) at all. In Ontario, which has to be one of the higher taxed provinces in Canada, the tax on essentials is - wait for it - 0%.

Indeed, a discussion on how to tax is very different from how much to tax.

[Beskar]

I think it's crazy that we here in Europe pay tax on essential foods (lettuce and so on) at all. In Ontario, which has to be one of the higher taxed provinces in Canada, the tax on essentials is - wait for it - 0%.

Don't brand Europe like that, in the UK, we don't pay tax on food like that. It's basically just your areas.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Why do people believe that "taxing fatty foods" means that you can't reduce the tax on healthier food at the same time?

Hah, ever know of a tax (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/telecom/2006-05-25-phone-tax_x.htm) that a consensus of politicians is willing to repeal in a timely manner?

[HoreTore]

Hah, ever know of a tax (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/telecom/2006-05-25-phone-tax_x.htm) that a consensus of politicians is willing to repeal in a timely manner?

Taxes are reduced, increased, invented and removed all the time, regardless of who's in charge.

[seireikhaan]

What, you think I was kidding with this? :smash:

If we are going to go socialist on the health care in this country, we may as well go all out. Yearly physicals/check-ups, which includes a certified fitness test. If you are rich and don't care, let yourself go. If you want to keep a few hundred bucks from Uncle Sam, make sure you (and your kids) don't get into the obese category. Pushups, situps, pullups, timed runs, etc. Think old-school Presidential Physical Fitness Test, but with money on the line.

Putting a tax on fatty/sugary foods will not solve the problem and is inherently unfair. Some people stay in shape regardless of their food choices. Creating a tax scheme for "unhealthy" foods would be a mess, and would be rife for abuse by special interests.
The issue i see with the proposed plan would be logistics. When do people take this test? Do they all take it near tax time? Do we have enough registered doctors for this purpose? What benchmarks are being used as "healthy"? Weight, BMI, cholesterol levels, blood sugar, how fast/long you can run?

Frankly, the tax seems more reasonable, in my opinion. Plus, it is more budget friendly, can be used to help pay for health care 'reform'(whatever that ends up being :dizzy2:), and should theoretically bend demand for unhealthy foods down. And for all the complaints I hear about how expensive healthy food is, when I go to the grocery store, I frankly fail to see how exactly it is unreasonably expensive. Keeping in mind, how much you eat is just as, if not more, important than what you eat.

[HoreTore]

Frankly, the tax seems more reasonable, in my opinion. Plus, it is more budget friendly, can be used to help pay for health care 'reform'(whatever that ends up being :dizzy2:), and should theoretically bend demand for unhealthy foods down. And for all the complaints I hear about how expensive healthy food is, when I go to the grocery store, I frankly fail to see how exactly it is unreasonably expensive. Keeping in mind, how much you eat is just as, if not more, important than what you eat.

A few of examples from this side of the pond:

- Pizza grandiosa. Frozen pizza, probably the cheapest dinner around, there's a reason why it's the unofficial national dish. It costs around 30 NOK, and it's enough for two people. And it ain't healthy at all...
- My favourite meal is entrecote with rice and sauce. That costs me around 60 NOK I think. However, that's without any veggies... So, to make that meal go from not too healthy(well, it's healthy to me...) to a healthy one, you would add some veggies. Which would make it more expensive.
- A bacon and cheese hot dog at Shell costs 44 NOK. A salad costs 57 NOK.

[seireikhaan]

A few of examples from this side of the pond:

- Pizza grandiosa. Frozen pizza, probably the cheapest dinner around, there's a reason why it's the unofficial national dish. It costs around 30 NOK, and it's enough for two people. And it ain't healthy at all...
- My favourite meal is entrecote with rice and sauce. That costs me around 60 NOK I think. However, that's without any veggies... So, to make that meal go from not too healthy(well, it's healthy to me...) to a healthy one, you would add some veggies. Which would make it more expensive.
- A bacon and cheese hot dog at Shell costs 44 NOK. A salad costs 57 NOK.
You've confused my statement, I believe. Yes, many unhealthy foods are very, very inexpensive. This does not make healthy foods crushingly expensive, it only makes it more expensive by comparison.

[HoreTore]

You've confused my statement, I believe. Yes, many unhealthy foods are very, very inexpensive. This does not make healthy foods crushingly expensive, it only makes it more expensive by comparison.

For us with money, yes.

For people who are counting every cent, then this becomes an issue.

I'm doing fine, I eat healthy and have no problem doing so with my income. Should I get a kid, however, my diet would be drastically less healthy.

[seireikhaan]

For us with money, yes.

For people who are counting every cent, then this becomes an issue.

I'm doing fine, I eat healthy and have no problem doing so with my income. Should I get a kid, however, my diet would be drastically less healthy.
Us? I haven't money. I'm in college and survive on cafeteria food and ramen.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Don't brand Europe like that, in the UK, we don't pay tax on food like that. It's basically just your areas.

The UK isn't on continental Europe.