HOI2 and Victoria

[Hooahguy]

so ive been looking into these games, both look interesting.
can someone tell me the differences between them, besides the time periods? both look good and the wikis on them dont help much.
EDIT: also, what about HOI3?

[CountArach]

Haven't played HoI3, but it looks fantastic.

HoI2 is very much focussed on the warfare side fo the game and involves a great deal more micro-managing of the combat. On the other hand the economic aspect of the game is very much hands-off apart from ensuring you have enough of each resource every day for your factories.

Victoria, on the other hand, focusses more on Diplomacy, Politics and the Economy. These things in combination make for a much more micro-managing game that has a great deal more depth. Howevever, the learning curves is much steeper - a fact which isn't helped by having a rather poor manual. I have been playing it for a while and still discover new things all the time.

Whichever one you decide to get, make sure you get the expansions. Revolutions turns Vicky into an entirely new game that is even more fantastic. Meanwhile Doomsday and Armageddon allow you to play the fantastic mods that have been made for HoI2 and also add in new features.

[Hooahguy]

i tried the HOI2 demo. the map is very, very cluttered, which i dont like, and why does it take ages to move units around?

[pevergreen]

It might be realistic for a change, isntead of R:TW speeds. :grin2:

[CountArach]

i tried the HOI2 demo. the map is very, very cluttered, which i dont like, and why does it take ages to move units around?
Because a day takes some time to pass. Change the speed if you prefer. Oh and if you think that map is too cluttered don't bother with HoI3 or even Vicky for that matter. Both have far more territories.

[Warluster]

You should buy the complete editions of both. They're both cheap ($20 total for both plus expansions). But if your looking at buying a specific one I would recommend HoI 2. They are both similar but I've always found HoI 2 to be the funnest.

HoI 3 is a good game. Its cheap ($40 AUD on Steam). Its imrpoved on everything from HoI 2 and added more. AI which will look after every part of the game (E.G: Playing as Britain you can focus solely on the Italian front in '43 while the AI looks after everything else). Its a great game worth its money. The only problems I've had with it are some minor ones (Can't make your own theatres...) and that the AI needs a LOT of improving to bring it to the level of HoI 2 or Victoria, but it still completely beats ETW... :sweatdrop:

HoI 2 with Doomsday and Armageddon is my recommendation.

[Hooahguy]

Because a day takes some time to pass. Change the speed if you prefer. Oh and if you think that map is too cluttered don't bother with HoI3 or even Vicky for that matter. Both have far more territories.
not cluttered in the sense of territories. cluttered in the sese that there are too many objects in a certain area and they are too large and hard to control. without losing track of other armies.

[Jolt]

HoI 2 is basically a "Real Time Grand Strategy World War 2 Simulation Game". You lead a nation in the timeframe of World War 2 and into conflict between the various alliances. Indeed, for a RTW fan, the game philosophy is very hard to get into (Even for me who had played EU 2 before getting HoI 2). And for someone who is used to conquering settlements and limitting to build armies and buildings to conquer more settlements, the complexity of HoI 2 will dazzle (How much more HoI 3, which is even more complex). In HoI 2, you have to keep your war economy and military afloat, while making sensible choices into your research path, which are crucial in your success or failure, and finally tuning up your overall IC (Industrial Capacity) to build what you want, while making sure all other ledges support your objectives. It is quite difficult to handle for a RTW Turn-based game Fan. Hooahguy, for that you have the pause button, which you need to use repeatedly in all Paradox games if you ever want to have a chance of success. Pausing gives you the time to set all orders together for a coordinated attack (Clicking all armies, attacking/Support Attacking, clicking all air forces, deciding which missions they will do, and in which region, etc). Then of course, everything is as real as possible, and that means Carriers take historical amounts of time to be built (Up to a full year), and land divisions and air force squadrons. That also pissed me off a lot in the beginning as I also wanted instant action. The problem to fix that is to put high speeds during peace time while you pause to tweak your production (Building new things/Allocating to what will your IC cover) and diplomacy. The best newbie country to play in this game is Nazi Germany (Curious.) Of course, provided you beat the :daisy: out of the UK, you can always take the Holy Lands and release Israel (Though it won't have that much IC and won't be able to build practically nothing)
EDIT: To do what I did in my screenshots as the Soviet Union, you need a lot of skill (Knowing what and when to build/research), intelligence (strategically outsmarting the AI, which isn't that difficult in vanilla HoI 2, and basically knowing when to attack/dug-in/retreat to better defensible terrain) and common sense (Going all out assault with all your forces under any circumstances usually leads to your speedy defeat)

Victoria on the other hand is much more an economic simulator where you lead your country through the 19th Century, trying to build an Industry capable of rivalling and surpassing other rivals, while keeping your population happy (Getting the goods they need). All this while you also need to keep a sizeable military to make sure other jealous powers don't attack you and force you to your knees. The USA is a cakewalk and a good sandbox in Victoria, since it has a huge assimilation bonus (Foreign People migrating to the USA are immediately assimilated into the USA's accepted culture, Yankee, making them fully productive and able to contribute to the fullest output in your economy) though it doesn't have much of the fun of European intrigues (Wars and diplomacy and stuff). The only mild fun you can have is the Civil War against the CSA. Afterwards, its just build up your industry to be the largest goods producer in the world.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

More intresting (but ridiculously difficult) is taking smaller countries to the top. If you catch a lot of lucky breaks you can take Japan from something like 80th place to the third most industrial power and 8th overall.

You can also win via prestige (how awesome the world thinks you are). Mostly it involves going for the prestige research while hoping no one kills you but doing things like building and claiming colonies, annexing small neighbors and winning wars will all give you lots of prestige (though going to war often results in a loss of prestige at the start so make sure you win!).

[Jolt]

Making Japan a Great Power in vanilla Victoria is (IMO) pretty easy. All you have to do is save RPs until the Meiji Restoration event hits and start researching/trading techs+the usual building of the whole Industry+taking some colonies (Korea, Indochina and Siam are usually good to have a good colonial empire, easily defendable and provider of expensive raw materials (Mostly Tropical Wood from Siam, while Korea has a nice combination of Coal/Iron to supplement your own Japanese supply)).

Attacking China is also an option to swipe a few Silk producing provinces, from where you can expand your RGOs to acomodate some 60 POPs working in it. Of course attacking China as Japan is better to involve either joint efforts with Russia or the UK.

[Monk]

Making Japan a Great Power in vanilla Victoria is (IMO) pretty easy. All you have to do is save RPs until the Meiji Restoration event hits and start researching/trading techs+the usual building of the whole Industry+taking some colonies (Korea, Indochina and Siam are usually good to have a good colonial empire, easily defendable and provider of expensive raw materials (Mostly Tropical Wood from Siam, while Korea has a nice combination of Coal/Iron to supplement your own Japanese supply)).

Attacking China is also an option to swipe a few Silk producing provinces, from where you can expand your RGOs to acomodate some 60 POPs working in it. Of course attacking China as Japan is better to involve either joint efforts with Russia or the UK.

The biggest problem with Japan is just not falling prey to buggy events. The event line that leads up the the Meiji is so hopelessly unwilling to work for me that I gave up on civilizing Japan, even though I really like the idea of transforming them into one of the Great Powers. :no:

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The biggest problem with Japan is just not falling prey to buggy events. The event line that leads up the the Meiji is so hopelessly unwilling to work for me that I gave up on civilizing Japan, even though I really like the idea of transforming them into one of the Great Powers. :no:

This. I'm 1 for 2 with Japan - had a fantastic first try and the only time I've ever gotten far with a Vicky game. Second try, struck out as rebels ravished my nation but nothing happened. :embarassed:

[Jolt]

You can't accept Dutch envoys btw. Not sure if you did that or not.

[seireikhaan]

You can't accept Dutch envoys btw. Not sure if you did that or not.
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can. I know I did it and ended up with meiji as well.

Not sure if it had anything to do with the fact that I let the country rebel on me, converting Japan into a liberal democracy in the 1850's.

[naut]

Actually, I'm pretty sure you can. I know I did it and ended up with meiji as well.

Not sure if it had anything to do with the fact that I let the country rebel on me, converting Japan into a liberal democracy in the 1850's.
:yes:


* Accept the offer to become a Dutch satellite in 1842, get all the free techs, disband all your armies, and set all taxes to 100%. This has the effect of turning your entire country to liberals. Look as the entirety of Japan turns to black, and wait until the revolution fires. Let your populace rebel and overthrow your government, thereby breaking your vassalage. While this will delay 'civilized' status until 1870, as opposed to 1860, you do get a lot of key techs much much much earlier and can use them to build your economy and colonial claims. This ultimately leads to a much stronger Japan by 1880, as opposed to staying isolated until 1860.

Congratulations, you are now a liberal independent (though unciviliced) democrazy. Put taxes low and beat back the reactionary revolts by building new military units super-fast. After that, just put mil spending to high, build the needed 5 mil score worth of native divisions, and wait for your reforms to bring you enough prestige. You'll be civilized in no time, and it's not even 1850... After that, annex korea, and use them as your cannon fodder when taking territory from the chinese.

The downside is you'll have high militancy and that will take some time to get rid of.
The other, other Japanese tactic.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

You can't accept Dutch envoys btw. Not sure if you did that or not.

The time I did awesome, I accepted the Dutch envoy and took their tech to become a satellite. The newly technologically-advanced samurai immediately rebelled and turned the monarchy into a constitutional monarchy. So I chugged ahead as an uncivilized but actually growing nation for a bit. Then the meiji event happened - very quickly, and very confusedly. I think I went with the option that makes everyone angry but civilizes Japan. There was another rebellion and we became a monarchy. Then a few days later we somehow reverted to a constitutional monarchy and it was easy (and fun) after that.

:shrug:

[Hooahguy]

is there a victoria demo? i want to try out both of them before i make a decision.

[CountArach]

is there a victoria demo? i want to try out both of them before i make a decision.
Nope

[Jolt]

If you never played a Paradox game, I'd hardly recommend you take on Victoria first. If anything EU 2/3 is the best game for you to learn Paradox's game style. Then comes HoI 2 (More complex and complicated) and finally Victoria. At the lack of a demo, I'd point you to this AAR (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305484) which shows how the game is handled along with plenty of screenshots and gameplay advices.

[Monk]

If you never played a Paradox game, I'd hardly recommend you take on Victoria first. If anything EU 2/3 is the best game for you to learn Paradox's game style. Then comes HoI 2 (More complex and complicated) and finally Victoria. At the lack of a demo, I'd point you to this AAR (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305484) which shows how the game is handled along with plenty of screenshots and gameplay advices.

I have to agree, Victoria is definitely the most complex of all the games and shouldn't be taken on first. All of the paradox games take some real effort to learn, but unlike some games they truly reward you for taking the time to learn it with a very fun experience.

It's also important to remember that the AAR Jolt linked is made using VIP (the mod that tries to fix the buggy aspects of Vicky while improving it), but you can still get a great grasp of how to play the game from it.

[Jolt]

I have to agree, Victoria is definitely the most complex of all the games and shouldn't be taken on first. All of the paradox games take some real effort to learn, but unlike some games they truly reward you for taking the time to learn it with a very fun experience.

It's also important to remember that the AAR Jolt linked is made using VIP (the mod that tries to fix the buggy aspects of Vicky while improving it), but you can still get a great grasp of how to play the game from it.

It's VIP:R meaning, the game is Victoria: Revolutions.

[CountArach]

It's VIP:R meaning, the game is Victoria: Revolutions.
VIP:R is Victoria Improvement Project for Revolutions.

[Jolt]

VIP:R is Victoria Improvement Project for Revolutions.

I know -_-'. I was just saying that the mod isn't VIP, it's VIP:R which means the AAR isn't for vanilla Victoria, but for Victoria: Revolutions

[Hooahguy]

well, i would start with EU2/3 but i dont have the money to get all those games, then get to vicky.

[Jolt]

Then don't get all games. Get EU3: Complete first. Or wait for yet another EU3 expansion to come out then buy the four of them.

Did you read the AAR?

Did it sound confusing enough?

[Meneldil]

EU3 is bar far simpler than HoI and Vicky. I suggest you start out with this one. It takes some time to understand the mechanics, but it's not nearly as complicated as Vicky.

Then, once you get a good grip of the game, you can try another Paradox game. EU:Rome is easy, but is also quite bad. I suggest you try HoI2 or 3 and then Vicky (which seems to be the most complex one).

I'm in the process of trying HoI2, and once you get a grasp of how the game works, it's not that hard.

[el_slapper]

(.../...)
I'm in the process of trying HoI2, and once you get a grasp of how the game works, it's not that hard.

and, unlike HOI3, it does not need a 2011 computer to work at decent speed.....:help:

[Jolt]

Thus why anyone hasn't recommended buying HoI 3. That game is for all purposes a beta build in any case.

[Meneldil]

Speaking of HoI, what faction is a good one to start with? I've been trying USSR, but I'm a bit overwhelmed by the huge territory, and the lack of production. Are Germany, France and UK easier?

[Hooahguy]

so ill probably get EU3: complete, then get to vicky.

[seireikhaan]

For a really easy game try USA. It's practically sand-box. Germany is the one you want to play for the most challenge while at the same time being perfectly doable. All you have to do is follow history loosely while avoiding the major pitfalls they made. World Domination is within Germany's reach.

Do not play France unless you want a really hard game. I get stomped every time.

Other interesting choices are the UK (although a bit overwhelming), Italy (small, but not too small) and Japan (more challenging than most other big players, but still within the realm of reasonability).
Ya, don't try what I did by bashing your head against a wall repeatedly by trying Nationalist China as your first campaign over and over until you started figuring things out...

[CountArach]

Speaking of HoI, what faction is a good one to start with? I've been trying USSR, but I'm a bit overwhelmed by the huge territory, and the lack of production. Are Germany, France and UK easier?
Rumania/Hungary I found worked quite well for my first couple of games. You are not hugely important for the entire war effort, though you still have your place. Further the relatively small territory and army are easier to manage. I would not recommend USA however, because a game where you are required to use all three military branches in tandem on multiple fronts at the same time makes for great difficulty.

[Samurai Waki]

I wouldn't advise the US as a first game, The Tandem Naval/Air game can be quite challenging to figure out in the beginning, when to build ships, when to build an airforce, how many infantry do I need? How many tanks? You basically start out with nothing (a decent, but aging Navy) but little in the ways of anything else. The perks: Large IC, decent Manpower, Later Entry into the War.

Germany is a good place to start, excellent Tech Teams, Awesome Generals, Good Base IC, Fantastic Ground Doctrine, Relatively weak early game opponents. Blitzkrieg tactics can cut through anybody with ease, just remember Tanks-Motorized Infantry (later Mechanized)- Stukas. Russia isn't hard, as long as you don't repeat Germany's historical mistakes.
Disadvantages: Terrible Navy (but if you conquer Russia, trigger Bitter Peace Event) a Sealion is a much easier feat to pull, you can do it early game, but it takes some...finesse.

[Jolt]

Using Tanks-Motorized/Mechanized will basically cripple your oil supplies and TC before you get far into Russia. Better if just to use them as Armored Spearhead with main army Infantry divisions following their progress then have an army composed mostly of Armored divisions.

[Samurai Waki]

Yeah, I should have clarified a bit. Tanks-Motorized-CAS for the 'Armored Fist' and lots of Infantry to tighten the gap. A stack of 2-3 Tanks + 3-6 Motorized/Mech usually does the trick for me (This was a major problem I had with Germany the first few times playing), and you only need 2-3 Stacks of these to make short work of Enemies. I usually rush for Baku and risk the potential TC Hit, however cutting off Russia's Oil Supply, and gaining the 20 Oil for myself generally allows you to open up a new front in the North for a quick rush to Leningrad/Moscow. Especially with the killer CAS-TAC Combo, you can make short work of the Soviets even if the majority of your holding forces are Inf. Of course this wouldn't work very well against a Human player, and on Very Hard I found this tactic to be useless, but on Medium/Hard I haven't had much of a problem.

[Jolt]

See, that's the beauty of playing the Soviet Behemoth. While German spearheads consist of 9 Armored divisions. In my game, my Armored spearhead and so overwhelming they break anything.

It usually consists of using a Panzer Leader Field Marshal, with 12 Armored Divisions under his command, followed by two Generals using 9 Motorized Divisions, followed by a gigantic wave of Infantry divisions. All this while some 50 CAS squadrons are on the air obliterating everyone in its path.

As to your strategy, you would have to hold the North Crimean path all the way to Astrakhan solidly and with decent depth from the Black Sea to allow for the Oil Production in Baku to rise to something significant. Otherwise the Soviets will just counter-offensive somewhere near the Sea of Azov, and your >10 divisions holding the Caucusus are :daisy: up, unless you have Air Supply on, which provided you can defend the Caucusus appropriately, it allows you to hold your ground long enough to bring down reinforcements to try and link up with the Caucusus again.

In my last Germany game, where I tried to play peacefully (Didn't go for war in the "Danzig and War" event), since the USSR declared war on me, they didn't benefit from the "Moving Industry to the Interior" events. After I had duly dealt with France (Which had declared war on me before - By dealing with them, I was blitzed the Maginot Line and dug in), I made a push Northwards, which after the success of that, the Soviet IC crippled, and the rest of the campaign was fairly easy (I made another push through the South and managed to encircle like 80 divisions around Lipetsk - Before that, the Soviet Union had a giant army advantage over me. Like 150 divisions of advantage).

In normal games I usually push both South to Stalingrad and North to Moscow/Leningrad first.