Why ban Ashigaru?

[rspete]

Why do so many insist that yari ashigaru are banned from use in armies in online play? As I understand they tend to die most easily when faced agianst most other troops.

[AggonyShim2]

well...
1. Ashigaru are useless. Why WOULD you use them?
2. People used to use them in large amounts and put high honour and upgrade their weapons to full. (they are cheap and you can do this for hardly any koku)
3. Thus, the community started using large numbers of ashigaru for less. And there was no way to counter it.
4. We even made patches that made them more expensive and less powerful. But still they are used.

So more or less its sort of like the ashigaru are a 'glitch'. the only way they can get rid of this glitch is to take the whole unit out of the game (which i propose) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[baz]

agreed, ashis were the best koku for koku fighter in MI by a long way, which unfortunately upset the game balance ..

[Kansuke]

Hi,

No need to ban them, they can be dealt with (I don't use them, prefer yari sams).


Kansuke.

[Orda Khan]

All units can be dealt with can't they? The reason Ashi's were 'dicouraged' was the fact that beefed up for minimal expense a 'peasant' unit becomes capable of killing more expensive highly trained units. It becomes the strongest unit. If you are happy with this, fine.

Let's also remember that 'many' long time players used this as a rule so this not a whine from the minority.

At the very least Ashi's will inflict a lot of damage on better units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Sorry but I think that's stupid. One good reason I switched to 103

........Orda

[AggonyShim2]

i still think we should just delete the ashigaru as a unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[dragonchi]

I have had some players complaing about not been allowed ashi ..... they say "if no ashi, then no calvary" ...... they claim that they need the ashi to defeat the cav.


What do you think about this? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif


Dragonchi


P.S. yes ashi unit should be removed ...... actually as Orda said ...... why the heck are we still using 1.02 ..... when we have the option of using 1.03 ????? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

[Orda Khan]

In answer to your second question Mist... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif I know exactly how you feel. 103 is such a well balanced Mod for Japanese armies, it simply astounds me that most will not try it.

I won't go over old ground, you know how good it is, just a shame the foyer prefers a version that is flawed.

Maybe it's these flaws, or rather, exploiting these flaws that they are reluctant to give up.

Ashi's are not needed to counter cav as you know.....They actually meant to say ' I like using Ashi's to chase down cav and murder them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif '
Jochi asked me once, what was so good about Ashi's, so I used them in a game so he could see for himself. Ask him how my little Linfords did against his cav....

In 103 there are no super units and team games are superb. MTW games last an hour or so in say a 4v4 but the game is slower. Our old 103 4v4 games lasted just as long........

....... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif I really do miss them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

I could quite easily quit MTW for a 103 Foyer

.....Orda

[LordTed]

People who are depnedant on them, can be easily out selected with other unit choices, but if they want to play ashis go down to their level and out skill them.

[ShinKamiizumi]

I've never encountered anyone who would use ashigaru if I asked them not to.

I would like to start using the 1.03 patch and will encourage my fellow clanmates and online acquaintances to do so as well.

Will the StatSwapper change the stats without restarting the game? I know it won't change the version message when the game starts which is a nuisance.

[Kansuke]

Hi,

I agree with Lord Ted, its just annoying when you see ashi beating better units, but if you also counter with ashi's, its not so bad.

Was nice to hear that you were in MI this week Lord Ted, look forward to seeing you soon.

*Bows.


Kansuke.http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/allclasses/KensaiL.jpg

[Orda Khan]

Yes the swapper requires no restart of the game, simply alt/tab to desktop, swap stats and then back to foyer.

We always announced to the foyer that the game was 103 and then passworded it 103, that way avoiding dropped games

.......Orda

[Stormer]

super peasents

[AggonyShim2]

gay peasants

[Kansuke]

Quote[/b] ]gay peasants

What to you mean Shim? in the sense that they are happy little fellas? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif


Kansuke.http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/allclasses/KensaiL.jpg

[Puzz3D]

The problem with Yari Ashi in WE/MI v1.02 is that they can be upgraded in such a way that they become the best hand-to-hand unit for the koku. This breaks the rock, paper, scissors of swords beat spears, spears beat cav and cav beat swords. These big upgrades on YA are possible because of a mistake in the way upgrade costs are figured. Honor, weapon and armor upgrades are each independently calculated as a percentage cost from the base cost of 100 koku and then added together at the end for a total cost of the upgraded unit. This is a mistake because, for instance, a weapon upgrade on an H9 YA costs the same as it does on an H0 YA, but it increases the combat ability of both units by 20%. So, the cost of a weapon upgrade on the H9 unit should be a percentage of the H9 YA's current value, not it's H0 value.

Now the people who worked on v1.02 saw this problem, but could do nothing about it because unit costs could not be altered and you can't substantially weaken the combat stats of the YA without making the unit useless in SP. The v1.03 is a stat produced for MP in which the YA's combat stats were substantially reduced. In addition to that, muskets got a 10% reduction in kills/volley, 3 second longer reload, less defensive combat ability and slightly lower morale which is all designed to give certain cav like NC and HC the ability to charge and rout unprotected muskets. The ammo was also reduced so that you can't sit back and win with only gunfire. Other changes in v103 include slightly better monks since they were being outclassed by upgraded no-dachi in v1.02, adjustment to BN based on players experiences with that unit after v1.02 was released, more ammo for archers so that they could seriously damage musk and counter the improved monks whos armor was also reduced, lowered combat ability of archers to compensate for the added ammo and added defense to all units to compensate for a speedup of gamespeed that had eliminated the ability of infantry to flank because foot speed had been slowed down in v1.02. The speedup in WE/MI occured when CA fixed bugs in the network code which made the game run faster. Initially, it was not fully appreciated how much the slowing of foot speed would alter the tactics, and by the time it was realized it was too late to correct it. The v1.03 brings back flanking by infantry as a viable tactic. All in all you'll find that v1.03 makes the rock, paper, scissors as strong as is can be made with the available parameters.

At the time v1.03 was released, the speed of play seemed ok to me, but I've come to view the game as unnecessarily fast. You have to be quite rapid issuing battlefield commands to do well in battle. STW was somewhat slower, but cav was particularly weak in original STW. Towards the end of the original STW period, many vets were playing at 8000 koku to give cav a boost since there were getting tired of the infantry game that STW is at 5000 koku. A lot of work went into making WE/MI v1.03 have a balance between the infantry, ranged and cavalry arms. You should be able to stop an all cav army with 6 yari samurai units, and the rest balanced types. If you're really good, you can probably do it with 4 yari samurai in your army. Despite the strength of the cav, a lot of work went into making sure that a balanced army had a good chance of victory against all cav armies. In addition, the v1.03 not only has a rock, paper, scissors between ranged, cav, spears and swords, but it also has one within the cav itself between CA, NC/HC and YC which makes the cav skirmishing very interesting.

[dragonchi]

Puzz,


Thanks for posting this




http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif


Dragonchi

[1dread1lahll]

Than god we have Medieval now where the units are balanced........

[ShinGaiJin]

Thats a very good posting Puzz,Im going to copy it and use it to give out to newbies and other online players willing to give 103 a chance...with your approval of course.
It explains well the new stats,pros and cons involved with the patch.
Many Thanks
As to Super Ashis,they are imbalanced in 102 and as has been already said frowned upon by umm.. honourable players,yes Kansuke they can be beaten I agree but still they are a pest
Still,I prefer them to the monk rush of old http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

ShinGaiJin

[baz]

Gah Peasants Gah