Gordon Brown has no spine.

[tibilicus]

Well due to my absence these past few weeks I'm sure we're aware of the Lokerbie bomber fiasco. Well, talk about rubbing salt in the wound..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8240220.stm

So now the Labour government has us bending over backwards for Libya, I mean come on, LIBYA?! I don't really care about the oil contracts, we could get them elsewhere. So let's see what the Labour government has done for us. 10 years ago, Britain still had a shred of dignity, economically we were still a world player, generally we took a strong stance on cases like the Lockerbie bomber.

Today's Britain, economy is by far the worst out of the big players in Europe and the world. Britain will be leaving the recession later than every other European country, I can't help feel Labour has some role in this. Today's Britain should also be void of the word "great". Apparently we now need to be all quite around Gaddafi, you know, being such a great ally and formidable economic partner that we must not upset at all costs. Meanwhile Gordon brown hails him as a friend in the fight on terror. I'm laughing now, I mean that's absurd, this guy was the mastermind behind numerous terror cells in the past 40 years, a lot of them directed at the UK!

So to summarise Brown and his cronies have ruined everything for everyone, have no spines, are hated by nearly everyone, even their own party and have pretty much done no good in the last 5 years.

So to summarise, Gordon brown is a ridiculous excuse for a human being and I don't think it's enough to see him defeated at the next election as I would personally like to see him locked in a cage and stuck on the plinth for all to laugh at this poor excuse of a leader.

/End rant.

[Idaho]

Today's Britain, economy is by far the worst out of the big players in Europe and the world. Britain will be leaving the recession later than every other European country, I can't help feel Labour has some role in this. Today's Britain should also be void of the word "great".

The term 'Great Britain' is a historical geographical reference to distinguish this island from the continental British territory.

I don't think any party would have made a difference. All are in hock to the large financial interests in the city that make up a massive part of our nation's wealth. And all were in agreement prior to the crisis that self regulation of financial markets was sacrosanct.

The response to the crisis would have been broadly the same for all the parties too. Brown followed an aggressive, yet conservative approach. He used all our money to bail out the banks. Personally I would have just used it to cancel all our mortgages and let the banking industry built itself up from scratch again.

[Banquo's Ghost]

And breathe. :beam:

Gordon Brown showed himself to be a man quite without courage (as a leader) very early in his premiership. He has never done anything to change that analysis.

However, the main cause of your anguish is misplaced. Pretty much every Western leader bends over and greases up when it comes to oil otherwise we wouldn't have any truck with 95% of the regimes that possess it.

The cowardice in the Lockerbie case comes from the cynical avoidance of Megrahi's appeal. There's many more yellow streaks possessed on that one than just McBroon's.

[InsaneApache]

When I look around at the polticos of today I search for the Castles, Healeys, Benns, Thatchers, Tebbits, Whitelaws etc. etc. and all I find are spineless, greedy incompetants who's only aim in life seems to get rich at the taxpayers expense.

No conviction politicians seem to be the order of the day. None of them seem to want to represent their constituants. All fall in line behid the party whips. Brtish democracy is a very sick man.

New Labour made the calculation that to achieve power they needed to ditch any sort of political philosophy. Call me Dave and his ilk are no different. Power for powers sake.

As for McRuin, as Banquo said the man's shown over and over again that my three year old grandaughter has more guts than him. He's been a disaster for the UK. It was bad enough that we had to see this leering nincompoop in our living rooms day after day. Now he's shown the whole world what a wassock he is. Embarresment warp factor 10.

The good news is that he may well have done for the Labour party what Lloyd- George did for the Liberals. One can only hope. If they thought the twenty year stint they did in opposition was bad, after the last time they buggered up the country, they should see the shoeing they are going to get next May.

I reckon he's a tory mole. :smash:

[Furunculus]

the element of the lockerbie story i always found suspect was the three months to live, i always had a sneaking suspicion that the story would fade into the background, and six months later their would be a page four story in the Mail howling that the bomber was still alive three months after the end of his three months diagnosis, after which the story would disappear.

it looks like i was right about the suspicious diagnosis, but wrong about the actual consequence.

this is not the way it turned out however, the details of the deal are so revolting that the release of the bomber is front page every day, and you can bet your bottom dollar that every single day he now lives beyond his allotted three months is going to kill another 10,000 labour votes at the upcoming general election.

[Banquo's Ghost]

It seems to me that we get the governments we deserve, by and large. Few democracies seem to want anything but the easiest of lives, and conviction politicians tend not to make things comfortable.

There's quite a cutting article on this very subject (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/matthewd_ancona/6143739/Gordon-Browns-damning-character-flaws-have-been-laid-bare.html) in today's Sunday Telegraph. I think it captures the essence of the Prime Minister.


Before last Wednesday, Mr Brown's public position on this appalling betrayal of those who died in the 1988 terrorist atrocity and their relatives was essentially: "Search me, guv, I'm only the Prime Minister… not my department. You want the Appeasing Dictators Helpline… No, this is my lunch-break." Etc.

But there is always a silver lining. You could have the leadership of Biffo Cowen. His approval ratings are so low, you can't measure them, you have to dig for them.

[Furunculus]

on the subject of conviction politics:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/janetdaley/6142155/Lockerbie-bomber-David-Camerons-straight-talk-is-what-the-public-wants-to-hear.html

excerpt:
Moral of the story for Mr Cameron: you are at your most effective when you say what you believe. Politics has entered the emotionally intelligent age: people can tell when you are faking it, when you are avoiding their eye, when you are evading obvious difficulties, and they do not like it. They would rather be told that there are some real problems with the way we currently fund healthcare (which they know to be the case) than to be "reassured" with the insultingly preposterous statement that there are not. They would prefer to believe that you have strong, unassailable principles of your own which you are prepared to debate openly, rather than to think that you are waiting for them to express a preference before you commit yourself. They want you to say, without hesitation, where you are going, and to allow them to judge that intention. Then they will happily let you lead them.

[Husar]

You know if Gordon Brown would press this issue, Gaddafi might make the UN dismantle Great Britain and hand the parts to it's neighbors, do you really want that?

On a more serious note, seems like he wants something from Libya, something like oil perhaps.

[Beskar]

I think it is something to do with Peter Mandelson having holidays with the Rothchild's and Gaddafi's son.

[Tribesman]

You could have the leadership of Biffo Cowen. His approval ratings are so low, you can't measure them, you have to dig for them.

:2thumbsup:
This years races are the first time I have ever seen any politician getting such sustained and varied verbal abuse where ever they went throughout the racecourse.

[rory_20_uk]

First off, the whole thing was a complete mess. Perhaps they could have handled it worse, but only just. Libya might have been slightly more subtle about it, and if the story of cementing Libya to the West was said from the start more would be understanding. As it stands it looks like an afterthought.

Trading a dying security agent for a oil contract is sensible - in the cold war agents were swapped and I'm sure often they'd done events as bad or worse. The waters are further muddied as to whether he did in fact do it.

I hope that someone did a hard headed calculation about the risks vs benefits - pissing off America vs the oil contract. To be honest, spending money and dying in Afghanistan and Iraq is more than enough. What the UK gains from the relationship is harder to see.

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

I don't understand why people are so strongly opposed to releasing the guy.

I mean, why insist to spend money keeping him in prison when you can earn some money on the guy instead? It's not like he's a danger anymore, so I don't really understand it...

[Furunculus]

cost/benefit.

physical money is not the only element of the equation, damage in reputation is a cost that must be weighed in the balance too.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I don't understand why people are so strongly opposed to releasing the guy.

Letting Gordon go would be an act of compassion to him as well as the country.

:wink:

[Rhyfelwyr]

damage in reputation is a cost that must be weighed in the balance too.

We just got -50 relations with the USA, and gained 2 BB points. :no:

[Furunculus]

yup, was it worth it?

in totality, when you factor in the public perception that justice works, as well as petroleum contracts and energy security.

[HoreTore]

Letting Gordon go would be an act of compassion to him as well as the country.


We just got -50 relations with the USA, and gained 2 BB points. :no:

:laugh4::laugh4:

[InsaneApache]

Realpolitik is something that governments of all persuasions have to deal with. Who was that said that the need of the many outweigh the need of the few?

Whoever it was needs a rocket up their bum.

[Hosakawa Tito]

The last I remember didn't at least 11 of all y'all countrymen also die on the ground? I find it hard to believe those families are very pleased with all this. The Colonel wants a business deal, okay, either give us who really did it, if not Megrahi, and the oil contract. In return we won't use the Colonel, his henchmen and capital as cruise missile piñatas.

[Tribesman]

In return we won't use the Colonel, his henchmen and capital as cruise missile piñatas.

Too late, you already did that deal, you have to offer something else if you want a new deal.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Trading a dying security agent for a oil contract is sensible - in the cold war agents were swapped and I'm sure often they'd done events as bad or worse. The waters are further muddied as to whether he did in fact do it.

I hope that someone did a hard headed calculation about the risks vs benefits - pissing off America vs the oil contract.

~:smoking:Part of me somewhat agrees with trading a terminally sick prisoner for oil. But the better part of me is revolted by this whole episode. Pride's been exchanged for oil. I would again quote France's and especially Italy's opportunist dealings with Libya as some sort of consolation, but in fact the thought that everybody does it only makes it worse.

Bah.

Pissing off America is not important. Britain's pride is what matters here. You bend over forward and let the Gadaffi do his thing. Without lubricant.

[rory_20_uk]

I thought the who deal was for lubricant...

Pride is a very expensive thing to have. I'd rather Britain went back to basing everything foremost on the economic benefits and then worry about everything else. Getting oh so concerned with the rights of everyone else and the tangles this gets our country in needs sorting out.

Bring back enlightened self interest to the fore.

~:smoking:

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'd rather Britain went back to basing everything foremost on the economic benefits and then worry about everything else. Getting oh so concerned with the rights of everyone else and the tangles this gets our country in needs sorting out ~:smoking:What rights of everybody else? Surely no Briton can be so busy with not caring less about everybody else's rights that he forgets that the UK has a sovereign airspace? It is not about everybody else's rights, it is about British rights.

So I would respond with a tirade about perfidious Albion, but that would be entirely misplaced. Because I think you've got it all backwards, Rory. It is not a matter of Britain giving preference to its profit over its pride. It is everybody else giving preference to their profit over Britain's pride.

The Libyans bloody brought down an airplane above Britain. Then stalled for fifteen years. Then gave up the wrong guy(?). Then got him back for a publicity stunt. And ended up being paid 500 million quid for their efforts. Just so British Petroleum could make its profits. Its not about profits for the average Briton, but for that international clique of billionaires in London, and possibly some scraps for their lackeys in Westminster too. I'm sure they'll throw you all a footy player or two to keep you quiet.

Brown lied about it too, as emerged later:


The row over the release of the Lockerbie bomber was reignited last night when Jack Straw, the justice secretary, directly contradicted Gordon Brown by saying Britain had been partly motivated by the need to secure fresh oil contracts when ministers tried, in 2007, to make it easier to release Abdelbaset al-Megrahi.

Straw accepted in an interview that he had decided in 2007 to drop his plan to exclude the bomber from a prisoner transfer agreement (PTA) with Libya after lobbying by UK oil interests, notably BP and the Libyan government. Straw was lobbied on 15 October and 9 November 2007 by Sir Mark Allen, a former MI6 officer, who was by then working for BP as a consultant. Libya was stalling on a £500m-plus oil deal with BP.

Brown, in a statement on Wednesday, said Megrahi's release had nothing to do with oil and was solely motivated by the desire to bring Libya back into the international fold after the country agreed to abandon its programme of weapons of mass destruction.

The revelation will be damaging for the prime minister who has been accused by Lockerbie victims' families and by some American politicians of putting Britain's trade interests before justice. In the face of international criticism, Brown said on Wednesday: "There was no conspiracy, no cover-up, no double dealing, no deal on oil, no attempt to instruct Scottish ministers, no private assurances."http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/05/straw-admits-oil-role-megrahi-talks

[Tribesman]

How about another issue?
Should the UK government be involved in attempts to get compensation for victims of IRA attacks involving guns and explosives that came via Libya?
I would suggest that you think very carefully about the question before replying

[Mooks]

In my long 17 years of life, iv been reading about foreign politics every now and then (through topics like this and news stations like bbc) for about the last 5 years of my life. All thoughout those many, many, many years iv ALWAYS read how british politicians are scumbags, cowards, double-dealin con-artists. Whats wrong over there? Is it the people that vote for the party and not the people (because they always have) ?

[Tribesman]

All thoughout those many, many, many years iv ALWAYS read how british politicians are scumbags, cowards, double-dealin con-artists. Whats wrong over there?
Politicians are the same the world over, in your 17 years you should have discovered that it is not just British politicians who are.

[Mooks]

Politicians are the same the world over, in your 17 years you should have discovered that it is not just British politicians who are.

Ya, but other politicians dont always do such a horrible job at what they do; or at least arent described as such as other politicians. I shouldve added that up there and actually came back to this thread to edit.

[Beskar]

The British are far more critical then other nations. Many people of nations hold a "You must respect your politicians." and that sort of deal. In Britain, it is a mud-slinging contest between the Sun, Daily Mail and other taboid papers.

[Banquo's Ghost]

The Libyans bloody brought down an airplane above Britain.

Actually, old fruit, it was almost certainly the Iranians in retaliation for the USS Vincennes incident.

But let's not complicate things. :bounce:

[InsaneApache]

The British are far more critical then other nations. Many people of nations hold a "You must respect your politicians." and that sort of deal.

This ^

I remember a conversation I had with 'mom' last year when O'Bama was elected. She was cock-a-hoop until I attempted to burst her bubble by observing that he will let you down, they're all the same, blah blah blah.

She got a bit upset at the suggestion that he was not the messiah and not even a naughty boy. Just another scum sucking blowhard, just like the rest of the politicians on the planet. But I digress....

Brown is a liar? Someones going to come along in a minute and tell me that Hitler :daisy: in the woods whilst Nero played the banjo. :wall: