Jagger
11-11-2002, 21:41
Jagger
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Posts: 140
From:
Registered: Sep 2002
posted 10-28-2002 09:11 PM
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I have been searching for information on when these groups started using pikes.
I have discovered the Lombard Pikemen used pikes in battle in the early 1100's. I have read that both Scottish and Flemish Pikemen were used in battle in the early 1300's. I don't believe these were the ultra long pikes though. I think they were in the 12-14 ft range rather than the 20 ft pikes that developed later. However they were much longer than the 6 or 8 foot long spear.
I suspect that pikes were used earlier than the 1300's by the Scots and Flemish. However I haven't been able to find when they first appeared for these groups. Anyone have any idea or sources of when the Scots and Flemish began using pikes?
What about the Welsh and Germans? Did they also use the longer spears? And if so, when did they start?
Thanks in advance
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Hakonarson
Patron
Posts: 278
From:Wellington, New Zealand
Registered: Sep 2002
posted 10-28-2002 11:05 PM
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Scots started using 10-12 foot "pikes" in pre-history - it was the weapon of the Picts and Caledones who inhabited Scotland before the Scots arrived from Ireland some time about 800-ish.
The picts often carried shields, but slung these and used their spears 2 handed.
After that date "Scotland" was inhavbited by a mixture of Scotti, Picts, Scandenavians, Strathclyde Welsh, and Saxons.
Flemings I'm not so suer about - but certainly "Brabancons" (pronounced brabansons) was a term synonymous with high quality mercenary spear armed infantry in the 1100's, and they existed as early as the 11th century.
When Frederick I went to Italy in 1166 and 1174 the Italians were apparently very wary of the Brabancon mercenaries in his army - htier reputation was quite impressive even then.
It may be of interest to yuor study to note that Byzantine Skutatoi heavy infantry used a 12-14 foot kontarion (spear - the word means "barge pole) single handed for several hundred years frmo about 5-600 AD.
The longbow is actually the "traditional" weapon of South Wales - the North Welsh used long spears much like the Scots - forming dense bunches of spearmen in the face of cavalry much like the later Scots Schiltrons.
Italian infantry (communal militia) seem to resemble "normal" European infantry up to 1300 - 6-7 foot spear, kite shield, or a bow or X-bow, etc, however Papal Guards were armoured and may have had longer weapons.
Imperial (ie German) infantry was much the same as otehr European infantry, but as noted above the Emperors often used a lot of mercenaries - and as always those with a reputation were prefered, such as the Brabancons mentinoed above.
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Jagger
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Posts: 140
From:
Registered: Sep 2002
posted 10-28-2002 11:32 PM
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Thanks Hakonarson That is exactly the information I needed.
Now I did find several references to Lombard militia using pikes in several battles in the 1100's. So I am assuming they were the only Italian infantry using the long spears. And what would be considered Lombardy in game terms-Milan and Genoa?
I think I will add Brabancons long spearmen as a merc only unit similiar to the Alan Mercs. I already have the Flemish long spearmen for the locals. I think I will move the availability of Flemish, Scottish and Welsh Pikes to early game as well.
What about the Spanish? I take long spears weren't really necessary vs the light horse of the Moors.
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Hakonarson
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Posts: 278
From:Wellington, New Zealand
Registered: Sep 2002
posted 10-28-2002 11:44 PM
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Spanish and Nth African infantry never seem to get long spears in my sources (WRG's Armies series - Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome (Phil Barker), Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066 and Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300 both by Ian Heath).
At home I have Armies & enemies of the Crusades (to 1291) by Heath also which may give some more info on the Spaniards.
Lombards gave their name to Lombardy - they had kingdoms there for several hundred years before "emerging" as Italians. Some of their cavalry carried long spears (10-12 feet) befoer 100 AD, and thye had a reputation for being willing to dismount and fight on foot as spearmen dating back to early Byzantine times, so conceivably your sorce for long-spear armed infantry my be the cavalry dismounted?
Other than that I don't know of any long-spear armed infantry (edited - for the Italians I mean).
[This message has been edited by Hakonarson (edited 10-29-2002).]
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t1master
Patron
Posts: 224
From:fort wayne indiana
Registered: Oct 2002
posted 10-29-2002 03:05 AM
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jag and hak,
could you post some of those references...
really interesting stuff...
"for pikes and guns are dangerous toys..."
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deejayvee
Patron
Posts: 108
From:Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: Jul 2002
posted 10-29-2002 05:17 AM
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quote:
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could you post some of those references
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hakonarson, could you post the names of some of the better books you've read about other medieval military history topics too? You always seem to have really good info so I'm keen to read some of what you've read.
Patron
Posts: 140
From:
Registered: Sep 2002
posted 10-28-2002 09:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been searching for information on when these groups started using pikes.
I have discovered the Lombard Pikemen used pikes in battle in the early 1100's. I have read that both Scottish and Flemish Pikemen were used in battle in the early 1300's. I don't believe these were the ultra long pikes though. I think they were in the 12-14 ft range rather than the 20 ft pikes that developed later. However they were much longer than the 6 or 8 foot long spear.
I suspect that pikes were used earlier than the 1300's by the Scots and Flemish. However I haven't been able to find when they first appeared for these groups. Anyone have any idea or sources of when the Scots and Flemish began using pikes?
What about the Welsh and Germans? Did they also use the longer spears? And if so, when did they start?
Thanks in advance
IP: Logged
Hakonarson
Patron
Posts: 278
From:Wellington, New Zealand
Registered: Sep 2002
posted 10-28-2002 11:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scots started using 10-12 foot "pikes" in pre-history - it was the weapon of the Picts and Caledones who inhabited Scotland before the Scots arrived from Ireland some time about 800-ish.
The picts often carried shields, but slung these and used their spears 2 handed.
After that date "Scotland" was inhavbited by a mixture of Scotti, Picts, Scandenavians, Strathclyde Welsh, and Saxons.
Flemings I'm not so suer about - but certainly "Brabancons" (pronounced brabansons) was a term synonymous with high quality mercenary spear armed infantry in the 1100's, and they existed as early as the 11th century.
When Frederick I went to Italy in 1166 and 1174 the Italians were apparently very wary of the Brabancon mercenaries in his army - htier reputation was quite impressive even then.
It may be of interest to yuor study to note that Byzantine Skutatoi heavy infantry used a 12-14 foot kontarion (spear - the word means "barge pole) single handed for several hundred years frmo about 5-600 AD.
The longbow is actually the "traditional" weapon of South Wales - the North Welsh used long spears much like the Scots - forming dense bunches of spearmen in the face of cavalry much like the later Scots Schiltrons.
Italian infantry (communal militia) seem to resemble "normal" European infantry up to 1300 - 6-7 foot spear, kite shield, or a bow or X-bow, etc, however Papal Guards were armoured and may have had longer weapons.
Imperial (ie German) infantry was much the same as otehr European infantry, but as noted above the Emperors often used a lot of mercenaries - and as always those with a reputation were prefered, such as the Brabancons mentinoed above.
IP: Logged
Jagger
Patron
Posts: 140
From:
Registered: Sep 2002
posted 10-28-2002 11:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Hakonarson That is exactly the information I needed.
Now I did find several references to Lombard militia using pikes in several battles in the 1100's. So I am assuming they were the only Italian infantry using the long spears. And what would be considered Lombardy in game terms-Milan and Genoa?
I think I will add Brabancons long spearmen as a merc only unit similiar to the Alan Mercs. I already have the Flemish long spearmen for the locals. I think I will move the availability of Flemish, Scottish and Welsh Pikes to early game as well.
What about the Spanish? I take long spears weren't really necessary vs the light horse of the Moors.
IP: Logged
Hakonarson
Patron
Posts: 278
From:Wellington, New Zealand
Registered: Sep 2002
posted 10-28-2002 11:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spanish and Nth African infantry never seem to get long spears in my sources (WRG's Armies series - Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome (Phil Barker), Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066 and Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300 both by Ian Heath).
At home I have Armies & enemies of the Crusades (to 1291) by Heath also which may give some more info on the Spaniards.
Lombards gave their name to Lombardy - they had kingdoms there for several hundred years before "emerging" as Italians. Some of their cavalry carried long spears (10-12 feet) befoer 100 AD, and thye had a reputation for being willing to dismount and fight on foot as spearmen dating back to early Byzantine times, so conceivably your sorce for long-spear armed infantry my be the cavalry dismounted?
Other than that I don't know of any long-spear armed infantry (edited - for the Italians I mean).
[This message has been edited by Hakonarson (edited 10-29-2002).]
IP: Logged
t1master
Patron
Posts: 224
From:fort wayne indiana
Registered: Oct 2002
posted 10-29-2002 03:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jag and hak,
could you post some of those references...
really interesting stuff...
"for pikes and guns are dangerous toys..."
IP: Logged
deejayvee
Patron
Posts: 108
From:Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: Jul 2002
posted 10-29-2002 05:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
could you post some of those references
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hakonarson, could you post the names of some of the better books you've read about other medieval military history topics too? You always seem to have really good info so I'm keen to read some of what you've read.