View Full Version : christianity vs shinto buddhism
kamizaki_nurizeko
10-24-2002, 16:51
after reading posts on a topic, ive noticed that a few people so far have very heated and passionate views about religion in japan...so i hope this topic will assist people in discussing there views and opinions...ill starts off,
i dont like christianity, i dont like religion full stop, its a pile of bull, it was the ancients worlds best attempt at early universal physics...this is the modern era and theres no place for it anymore...but i cant force people tostop believing its up to them...but i do agree theres something about the universe still beyond human comprihension...maybe its a god...maybe its an afterlife...maybe its a higher plain..what ever the fact is that wars and hatred are still fought over religion, and if thats what it does for the world it should die like latin or slavery.and on a final point...the catholic church is contradictary, and corrupt...and those islamic people who terrorise and make good normal muslims look bad...i hope you die you scum.
thanx for listning, and post away people, its good to get stuff off your chest...just remember, no abusive or down right vulgar talk, no fighting, dont let your feuds spill out of this post thread, and dont fall out with each other people...depsite opinions your all friends now so dont let your public view change it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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The bell rings against a hollow sky; the raven caws...NO MERCY!...all samurai walk the path to nothingness.~Kuroi Sabato
Rosacrux
10-24-2002, 17:16
Nice wording, but a bit on the shallow end. Being an atheist myself, I have hardly no sympathy for organized religion (especially those I've come to meet pretty close, Orthodox and Catholic) but as for "believing" as a general concept... well, here is what I think:
Most people (like... 99% of them actually) do not like their lives. Period. That's the truth and anyone who denies it, doesn't know what's going on around him/her/it.
People seek refugee from the hard things life offers them in abundance, in the few, precious pleasant moments - and even those tend to become quite repetitive and so not quite a relief after all.
In previous social/economic structures, practically the only relief for those in pain and suffer (=99% of the people) was religion. If you believed in a better afterlife, it was so much easier to deal with uncertainty, bad times, disease, worries, grief and sorrow. And if you believed that those rich buggers who are throwing you around, shall get what they deserve in the afterlife, it was even easier.
Of course, religion has proved to be a wonderful tool for those who held wealth and power to control the masses. Just convince them that the nasty landlord who raped their children shall meet his personal hell after he dies and most probably they won't try to kill him too soon.
Nowadays, the need for religion ain't that great. Or... is it even greater? People still are usually unhappy, still seek refuge from the hard times, still think other mistreat them, still can’t find the meaning of life.
But… there are alternatives: Alcohol (this has been an alternative since god-knows-when…) Drugs (and the abuse of them) psychologists (a great, rewarding job, I wish I was 18 again to go to a psychology dept. instead of journalism…) Wealth/Power-mongering (the greatest drug there is, actually) Money (in particular) consumerism in general and also various semi-religious (in their deep essence) addictions: Footbal, sports in general, TV and movie stars (like living your life through somebody else… pathetic, but that’s what millions of people do: Watch other people live and wonder how they would fare in their position) and various forms of virtual reality (including computer games http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif )
People still need some form of religion. It might not be what we actually call religion, but some other type of unconditioned surrender to a universal truth. Even if it’s a virtual one…
Sjakihata
10-24-2002, 18:13
Quote Originally posted by kamizaki_nurizeko
it should die like latin[/QUOTE]
why is it good that latin is dead? It is the reason why we actually understand each other today http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
kamizaki_nurizeko
10-24-2002, 21:33
just a comparision, latins dead anyway good or bad, im just saying religion should be dead like latin...infact exchange latins life for religions :P
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The bell rings against a hollow sky; the raven caws...NO MERCY!...all samurai walk the path to nothingness.~Kuroi Sabato
Bukkake Rulz
10-24-2002, 23:21
I tend to look at religeon as any other life style. I you want to be Catholic, good for you. Muslim, good for you. Gay, straight, lazy, active, sports fan or not, good for you. When it starts bugging me is when people start pushing their views on me. IMO it's great you live the way you do as long as you are happy with it. But at the same time it does not mean I am going to care about it.
Tachikaze
10-25-2002, 04:29
"Bukkake". Sukebe.
Religion has many purposes.
Seen from the top, it was early political institutions. The powerful ruled the weak through divine association.
From the masses, it was community, schooling, festivals, and recognition of life's milestones.
I love the way Japan handles religion. It is truly free there, and virtually no one pushes their beliefs on you. I have never even had any Japanese ask me what my beliefs are. Both Shinto and Buddhism are great. Shinto puts us in touch with nature and shows us humility. Buddhism gives us self-discipline and peace.
I can't bring myself to practice Jewish/Christian/Muslim ritual, but I did take part in Shinto and Buddhist ritual in Japan. I didn't feel like I had to "believe" anything. The rituals focus our minds on what is really important in life. It's very refreshing.
They also give the Japanese community, festivals, and recognition of life's milestones.
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kamizaki_nurizeko
10-25-2002, 13:42
ide love to be shinto-buddhist... not cause i believe the emperors of devine creation, or that its gods truth and stuff...but because buddhism doesnt neccisarily claim to know everything about the universe...plus japanese are more traditional then religious...thats why no-ones so eager to force religion on you...its just being part of a community, sharing a tradition that the japanese have been enjoying for centurys...i bet you wouldnt find a buddhist or shinto missionary vilontly persue you until you signed up like a christian one.
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The bell rings against a hollow sky; the raven caws...NO MERCY!...all samurai walk the path to nothingness.~Kuroi Sabato
Mount Suribachi
10-26-2002, 18:49
Quote Originally posted by kamizaki_nurizeko:
i bet you wouldnt find a buddhist or shinto missionary vilontly persue you until you signed up like a christian one.
[/QUOTE]
Gosh, those wickedly evil Christian missionaries, when will the world be free from their plague? When will they stop giving medical aid and teaching basic hygiene and agriculture and providing clean, fresh water supplies, and teaching people to read and write. When will they stop meddling with remote tribes? What gives them the right to tell adolescent boys from tribes in S America that gang rape is not a fun game to play? When will they stop defending the women in tribes in Papua New Guinea, who get stabbed to death by their husbands when they point out that the "spirit of their ancestors" is actually their husband in a mask.
You show your ignorance of missionary work and christianity by your comments. You cannot force anyone to become a christian, you are a christian by your own personal belief. I live near a missionary training school (that was, incidentally, trashed in a raid last week by activists) and several of the instructors come to our church. My wifes cousin is a missionary in PNG, I have 2 friends who grew up on the mission field in Africa. They are all amongst the most sincere, dedicated, Christ-like christians I know.
As far as "violently pursue" goes. You are kidding me right? The violence runs the other way my friend, or did you miss Martin Burnham on the news (killed after he was kidnapped by Philipino Islamic militants) or the 30 christians from missionary organisations killed in Pakistan in numerous attacks this year. Or the 3 missionaries kidnapped 15 (FIFTEEN)years ago in S America and only this year confirmed as dead by their kidanppers. You don't know my friend Paul, but he was shot when he was 7 years old by soldiers in the Niger. Or Mike, who was at a school for missionary kids in Senegal last year when a hand grenade was thrown into the girls toilets (luckily empty). And of course the raid on the mission school last week. A few people were manhandled, but no-one was hurt (this time), computers were trashed, hard drives stolen (which contain my bank details BTW), heating pipes were sabotaged so the place flooded 2 hours after the 40-50 raiders left.
I'm not sure which is worse, this thread, or the one in OT that compares Christians who have been converted at a Billy Graham crusade to Al-Queda terrorists.
I suppose I should be used to the incessant attacks on Christianity on this board by now. Any other religion subjected to such sustained criticism/mocking/vilification and it would be classed as "intolerant" and condemmed. So why is it OK for Christianity?
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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war"
Ilya Ehrenburg
Sjakihata
10-26-2002, 19:48
very subjective I must say. You do not think that extreme christians kill other?
Mount Suribachi
10-26-2002, 20:36
If you are referring to eg. Protestants and Catholics in N.Ireland, they are not Christians. They may be cultural christians, but they are not christians. I'm not going to defend the evil actions done in the name of Christianity, because they are indefensible, and just because something is done in the name of Christ, doesn't make it Chistian.
Tachikaze
10-27-2002, 01:01
Oh, oh! Now Suribachi is telling us who are true Christians and who are not! Somehow I suspect that he thinks he is a real Christian. Do you know how many times I've heard Catholics say that Protestants aren't Christians, etc.? Everyone has their own idea of a "true Christian". I may agree with Suribachi's idea of a "true Christian", but one can't claim knowledge of true vs. false Christianity without appearing arrogant.
No doubt people have done good things in the name of Christianity. In many cases, they are good-hearted people who are correcting what the Christian establishment was historically, to some degree, responsible.
Christian evangelistic missionaries think that other cultures are too stupid to have valid beliefs of their own. They arrogantly think they have the special gift of knowing what's good for everyone else.
I just got back from Peru, where the Christian invaders destroyed almost every aspect of the native culture, especially religious elements. It made me sick, even though I had already been already aware of it. Being in the environment where it happened made it much more emotional. They wrecked their beautiful temples of highly advanced architectural engineering, and built churches on top of the foundations. Missionaries, as well as soldiers and disease, obliterated their culture.
Even if I believed that Christ were divine, I would never associate myself with the Christian Church, even in light of the many benevolent sects that exist. It's like associating myself with a benevolent sect of the KKK that doesn't profess the superiority of whites.
The worst you can say about Shinto is that the Imperial Japanese military government from the 1930s and '40s made it their state relgion and drilled it into their public. Still, I've never had a Shinto, or even a Buddhist, try to convert me. They seem to respect free will and have the humility to realize that other people may be as enlightened as they are. Or they consider belief to be a personal matter.
Buddhists, throughout the world, have done just as many beneficient acts as Christians without getting a reputation for applying pressure to convert (although, I realize some have).
You can't force someone to be a Christian? This statement amazes me. Read up on the Inquisition.
Did you ever stop to ponder why people harbor hatred (rightly or wrongly) towards missionaries?
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[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 10-26-2002).]
Tach, not to take sides... but direct association between the domineering imperialistic deeds of the Spanish several centuries hence and the modern work of Protestant missionaries demonstrates... a very large bias if not a great deal of ignorance.
..
As far as modern missionaries.. well, if the convertees get some better food and a bit better technology to provide them with the basics and learn how to read.. then I'd say the experience has had a positive impact on their lives whether or not I'd personally be able to partake in any of the "surrendering to God" or having my "soul saved" or any of that stuff.
Del
Tachikaze
10-27-2002, 08:19
What bias? I don't belong to any religion. If anything, I've had a lot more Christian education and indoctrination than any other.
Why can't the missionaries who provide better food, technology, and reading skills do it out of the goodness of the hearts (Christian charity)? Why does conversion have to be part of the deal? In the Gospels, Jesus healed a Roman soldier (not to mention numerous lepers, etc.) without expecting conversion.
Whether or not modern Protestant missionaries are like renaissance Catholic missionaries, they still have the arrogance to believe their religion is superior to those of other cultures. This is apparently rare among Buddhists and, especially, Shintoists. The people of Japan, the cultists notwithstanding, seem to be content to practice their rituals and beliefs without worrying about what anyone else believes. I wish everyone could be like that.
Maybe it's the missionaries who should be learning from the cultures they encounter.
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It is becoming quite evident that you have had very little personal experience with actual missionaries, Tach, so I suppose we shall chalk this one up to ignorance.
For one, they give what they have freely and don't demand conversion. There's more, but I think I'll let that one swirl around in your head for a while first.
Del
Mount Suribachi
10-27-2002, 13:41
1st off, I was reffering to the terrorists in N.Ireland - there are many fine christians in N Ireland, Catholic and Protestant. Note I referred to cultural Christians. I know atheiths who claim to be Catholic, Jew and Muslim. They are of course CULTURAL catholics, Jews and Muslims.
2nd. Christians do not evangalise out of arrogance. We do it because we believe it is TRUE! A concept which many find hard to grasp in todays anything-goes, if-it-makes-you-feel-good society. I am a Christian because I believe Jesus Christ died for my sins and rose from the dead, not because it makes me feel good (tho it does) or because its cool or trendy to have a bit of spirituality. Jesus said "Go ye unto all the nations and preach the gospel". What are we meant to do, ignore the words of our Lord and Saviour? If we beleive that Jesus Christ is the only hope for salvation of souls, are we just to stand by and watch as everyone around us goes to hell? If you saw a drowning man, would you not pull him out? Likewise, how can christians not preach the good news of Jesus? It has nothing to do with arrogance, it is because we believe its TRUE. Surely you realise that all religions CANNOT be true, either they're all wrong or one of them is right. Its all-right saying "look at Japan and theres a million different gods, they're so tolerant, yadda yadda", does it ever occur to you that there are could be between 999,999 to 1,000,000 people wrong in Japan? Yes, you can be sincere about your beliefs, but do you accept that you can be sincerely wrong? And of course I accept that I could be sincerely wrong also - but I don't believe so, if I thought I was wrong, I would have to give my beliefs up, what would be the point otherwise?
As for your comments on destroying the culture of tribes, why don't you ask some black african christians if they would rather that the missionaries never came and taught them about Jesus and if they'd rather still be pagan/animists? I think you should know that Africa is now sending Christian missionaries to Britain becaue they see the country that taught them about Jesus is now turning its back on him. 10,000 nigerian christians meet in London every week to pray for Britain.
Finally, like Del says, the "social work" is still performed by the missionaries, regardless of whether people convert or not. It takes up to 20 years just to learn the language of some tribes, and many cases missionaries spend their whole lives on the mission field without a single conversion.
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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war"
Ilya Ehrenburg
Going to hell, am I, Suribachi? Well, I certainly hope its an okay place to be. I wonder if the chicks are hot?
On second thought, disregard this little non-sequitor. Carry on..
Del
kamizaki_nurizeko
10-27-2002, 14:34
thanx for your opinions people, personally i blame early missionaries for destroying global culture...not because a spanish king wanted it, europeans were on the most part quite happy to stay on there continent...it was the catholic church(which had almost a rediculuose amount of control over other catholic nations) which gave the final push to expand...and those people giving aid arnt missionaries, there good kind people who just happen to be christians, its those missionaries who do nothing else...and before you go start saying what do i know about christianity you heretical b*st*rd i was born into the latterday saints of jesus christ church....it took me till i was 12-13 to get enough of my own free will to decide my life wasnt dictated by a god...im not denying that there isnt something...but what are we so assume we know the truth?...were nothing but human beings, our brains cant even comprihend convenient space travel, or weather control, or even to feed the starving of the world, or global unity so what makes you believe that some guy born back when war was the second name for the human race was telling the truth?...and i agree with some of the people here...charity is for charitys sake...and who are you to say that another belief system or local religion is any more false and misguided as christianity?...just because its been forced onto people all over the world doesnt make it right...and i dont mean violence as in physical...as in hostile...like a cancer...islam is only kept to countrys containing populations of islamic peoples...shinto doesnt go outside of japan, bhuddism is almost exclusivly kept to asia accept a few groups dotted across the earth...and yet the fact that christianity is so embedded in south america, a continent previously totaly culturally isolated from europe, and africa that its right?...plus is it me or is christianity especially well embedded in the developing world, where people are so desperate for aid they'll join up to your religion and believe in god just because the white devil brings them aid?...those are sick, and misleading tactics i believe.
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The bell rings against a hollow sky; the raven caws...NO MERCY!...all samurai walk the path to nothingness.~Kuroi Sabato
Nurizeko.. you act somehow as if a mere belief in Christianity is an excruciatingly painful, debilitating condition. I'm afraid that, as an impartial observer of the condition, I'll have to disagree with you...
Not to mention I'll have to point out your severe lack of any understanding of European geopolitics. The Pope MADE European nations explore??? Gimme a break!! The European nations were in mortal competition with one another, they sought overseas colonies to bring them wealth. And wealth they brought, and prestige, and thus power. To say it was some kind of Papal conspiracy.... oh for the love of God. England also expanded, and she was Protestant at the time. Same with the Dutch. And all Eupopean nations, Catholic, Protestant, or secular, expanded to Africa and Asia in later years...
And before you go lamenting the horrid state of religion in South America today... well why don't you go and try to convince the people actually living there that their entire belief system is a tragedy? Or, maybe you should actually learn a little bit about those belief systems?? The vast majority of LatinAmerica is non-practicing Catholic, and indigenous notions and rituals are either directly or popularly engrained into pretty much all of the religious traditions of the various regions. Not to mention that the greater part of the populace in these nations owes the greater part of their blood to either Europe or Africa!
Yes, providing aid and showing unconditional kindness.. such subversive and dishonest tactics! The people come in and start eating and learning and.. BAM! Out of nowhere! They start to take an affection to their providers and put faith in what they say! And they are all led off to such a terrrrrible fate as Christianity! OH the horror...
I mean really, it would be nice if there were more secular Orgs like this, but there is such a pittance of aid anyway you can't go knocking all the Christian ones.
Del
You also cite Islam as a non-expansionist religion. Well then how the hell do you think it spread from one guy with 9 wives around the turn of the 1st millenium to nearly 1 billion followers worldwide today? Think! Thinking seems to be the main component missing here...
Del
kamizaki_nurizeko
10-28-2002, 14:20
okay let me pick on all religions...they suck, they blow, there the very evil they keep preaching to save us from...please, pretend that religions are goody goody and that there true but this is the modern era...science is what drives the world now, and religion is just some useless gangreen limb...all religion ever done for the world was cause war and ds-unity...oh thats right religions are trying to feed and clothe the third world....i would too if i knew my way of life had put those people in that situation in the first place...so in conclusion
islam, christianity, buddhism, hindu, every religion in the world is nothing but ignorance...i mean believing something that was invented hundreds or thousands of years ago by a dude to gain some local power i find almost pathetic....thats why i dont like religion...thats why i speak of it as evil...cause all it causes in the long term is death and more hatred between peoples.
and i'de just like to say that i have to take my hat off to this forum...i havnt seen a single cuss or extremely hostile post at all, well done ^_^
and congatulations to those who defended religion so well without such as a cuss or slag...the world needs more people like you.
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The bell rings against a hollow sky; the raven caws...NO MERCY!...all samurai walk the path to nothingness.~Kuroi Sabato
I dunno, my experience has been that people very literally think and do alot of ignorant things without any aid from religion.. I know I do..
I really think the world is very big and we, striving to make our way in it, are ultimately very simple creatures, despite these grandiose notions we get from our "intelligence" and "learning". To be perfectly honest the kind of extreme anti-religious sentiment you express is IMO immature.. not in a whiney 4-year-old kind of sense obviously.. more just indicative of youth.
Del
[This message has been edited by Del (edited 10-28-2002).]
ICantSpellDawg
10-29-2002, 11:35
this arguement is absurd and its hardly an arguement. The popular new opinion is that everyones opinion matters (even though all of them are pretty much the same on every issue, there are one or 2)
nobody except the guy who posted right above me hits anything intelligent on the nose. Human being would fight and be ignorant over butter if there was nothing else. get rid of religion and wars will be fought over music and movies or color or food or oil or money or cheese or.........
maybe religion is pointless but the fact remains that many people are happy being ignorant and it seems to me that the smarter we get the more miserable we become - ooooh wow, christianity looks completely improbable just like all the rest of the ideas on something inconcievable there are out there. Athiests who are real athiests make me angrier than any religious people that i meet-they "know" that there is no God or gods and have absolutly no moral codes written in stone because they have nothing to believe in but themselves (an overstatement, but poor little me, ive never met an athiest i regarded as a decent person)
- they sell simple people misery by stripping away the one thing they hold to be true and give them nothing in return.
Believe in yourself? do you really believe that?
everyone today like i said before believes that their brains are superior to everything and a logic train is all you need to be happy, but i cant remember the last time logic and knowledge made anyone truly happy.
btw i am really angry because this kind of dribble is just angry kids who will be massivly religious someday asking stupid questions that everyone asks and later realizes that to believe in something bigger than yourself is a relieving feeling and helps to curb some of the lonely selfishness that eats away at many people - without a strict moral code based on whatever, what else will encourage you to life and be kind? most people are just plain out nasty, i rely on nobody and without some sort of innocent faith, this world makes no sense
(i am not religious or a believer, but i view religion when it is not being used as a destructive tool as a great thing - something that gives hope and brings people together whether it is right or wrong, the results are the things that count)
im not gonna even bother reading this over cuz its too long and will incur more intellectual wrath
talk about something that makes you and others feel good
ICantSpellDawg
10-29-2002, 11:40
people today believe in science as religion, but scientific "truths" are apt to change very often, i would rely on science with one foot out the door
Tachikaze
10-29-2002, 12:24
Quote but scientific "truths" are apt to change very often[/QUOTE]
This is one of the very things that distinguishes science from Western religions. This is also what makes science, to me, more reliable than religious beliefs that are set in stone.
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[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 10-29-2002).]
Wow. I never thought it would happen, but I have found my ideological twin in the religion arena. Well, normally I wouldn't call him a twin.. but there are so few people who think like that that he might as well be.
Salutations to McGruff!
Del
G0THIC-Lobster
10-29-2002, 14:55
......dudes not those religon things again, generally i am a buddist but not heavy ones( i still eat meat and have a love to frag)
kamizaki_nurizeko
10-29-2002, 21:34
i dont need religion to tell me to have some morals it should damn well be common sense...but anyway, i agree with a few posters here....religion, the sandwich im eating now...humans will fiht over anything....and if someone finds they dont have the strength themselves to carry on, religions a nice "drug" or fantasy...i dont think ill be going back to religion any time soon, i was born into a christian church and im quite sure after all this time, i should decide what i think is right...its past the 90's now, there hasnt been an actual holy war for a long time now, so religion is harmless...hell it gives people hope...so i understand where you people are comming from...but im going to stick to figuring out the universe for myself...and your right, i probably will be begging for gods blessing anf forgivness for my life of heresy when im at deaths door!,lol.
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The bell rings against a hollow sky; the raven caws...NO MERCY!...all samurai walk the path to nothingness.~Kuroi Sabato
ICantSpellDawg
10-29-2002, 22:01
fair enough - that last post was pretty good
lets talk about medieval europe WHOHOO
Hakonarson
10-30-2002, 02:45
There is a istrong modern belief that erligon has run its course.
We can plot religonm along an axes of people needing to give meaning to the world and their lives.
To the pre-historic hunter the rising of the sun and moon, the seasons, etc., weer all beyond comprehension, and he rightly worshiped them as the forces that controlled his life.
As understanding has increased so has religon changed. There has been understanding of humanity, and of the physical environment we live in.
"Why do we exist?" has always been a fundamental question that only religon has had an answer to - and that remains true for many today.
For many other people today there is almost enough understanding of the physical universe to come to teh conclusion that religon is no longer relevant - humanity invented religon to serve a purpose, and the purpose is almost done.
In many respects teh current terrorist troubles are a direct refection of thsi position - the fundamentalists (Islamic, Christian (eg Waco), Jewish, Hindu and I'm sure there will be Buddhist and otehrs in time) are fighting a rearguard action against the encroachment of modern philosophy.
for Islamic fundamentalists the West is the embodiment of their target - Godless, rational, humanist, whatever you want to call it.
Christian fundamentalists rail agaisnt the breakdown of traditional values, society, etc- almost a mirror image of what the Islamic ones are complaining about!!
In time erligon will change again - but who knows into what form and at what cost!!
Katasaki Hirojima
10-30-2002, 09:53
Well put, Hakonarson. Religion is not nearly as rigid as most people demand it to be. I'm a christian, and am not afriad to say it, either. Sometimes I feel I'm the only christian on the net. That makes me sad, just because so many people are becomeing obssesed with things so..meaningless.
"But… there are alternatives: Alcohol (this has been an alternative since god-knows-when…) Drugs (and the abuse of them) psychologists (a great, rewarding job, I wish I was 18 again to go to a psychology dept. instead of journalism…) Wealth/Power-mongering (the greatest drug there is, actually) Money (in particular) consumerism in general and also various semi-religious (in their deep essence) addictions: Footbal, sports in general, TV and movie stars (like living your life through somebody else… pathetic, but that’s what millions of people do: Watch other people live and wonder how they would fare in their position) and various forms of virtual reality (including computer games )
"
Fine example of the wrong way to lead your life. These are all shortcuts and easy ways out and around a very real problem. Awnsering the meaning of your soul. Awnsering your hearts need for something more then the substantial. Its not just about pleaseing yourself. Far from it.
I belive that there is a god, that there is a force of good and evil. I belive in jesus christ, and everything eles stated in the NEW testament. THe teachings of the bible are a ancient and divine gathering of wisdom, that can only be attained by yourself through throughtfull interpetation and insight. Jesus said this, in his own way. In a way, you must take what god has given you and build on it. On the way, you learn alot, and you tend to realize just how amazingly well done gods 'strategy' can be.
Infact, understanding god is a big part of understanding anything eles. Its quite true, though very hard for me to explain. I do alot of thinking. Alot more then the regular person.
Its just, most people are happy with being..Cogs. I'll let you ponder that. They don't seem to put themselfs above the 'game'. They're just too caught up in -pleaseing themselfs- and keeping themselfs dillusional to everthing..and so never get any true meaning out of life, because they never looked for it, they were to busy, playing the game.
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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.
Tachikaze
10-30-2002, 13:06
Katasaki Hirojima
I agree with your analyses of people's "drugs". I simply found another answer than you did.
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kamizaki_nurizeko
10-30-2002, 16:11
the last few posts were very insightful and intelligently put together...im not going to deny that i believe in something...but theres so many religions im not going to risk becomming ignorant and a puppet by my fervant beliefs...so im just going to live my life the best i can, and find the awnsers for myself...maybe ill find that god does exsist...maybe ill find out that god is an alien with super powers, lol, but ill never know until that momment
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The bell rings against a hollow sky; the raven caws...NO MERCY!...all samurai walk the path to nothingness.~Kuroi Sabato
Mount Suribachi
10-30-2002, 18:31
Been away for a few days, was worried the way the thread was going. Glad to see everyone is posting maturely and no flaming. Thanks in particular to Del for "defending" christianity, even though he isn't one himself. Maybe not everyone on the Org is against us. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Anyways, IRT the guy above. OK, so what when you do find "the answers". Surely if you think that one belief or another is "the answer" then you must, by your own words, then become an ignorant puppet, yes? Because you believe something to be true, that others do not. Do you see? This is what I was trying to talk about above, we can all have our beliefs, but we can't all be right.
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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war"
Ilya Ehrenburg
Mount Suribachi
10-30-2002, 18:43
IRT to Hakonarson, there are already multi-religious political groups operating in the UK. eg The other week there was a vote in the house of Lords on gay and unmarried couples adopting children. A pressure group against this made up of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus fought (successfully) against the bill.
Also, the Waco/David Koresh mob were not fundamentalist christians, they were a sect, pseudo-christian in nature. A fundementalist christian usually means a "traditionalist", totally bible-based christian. I would class myself as one. They are usually identified with several issues - gay rights, abortion, sunday trading, alcohol,euthanasia, women priests- at the exclusive expense of all their other beliefs . . The US media also (incorrectly) classes them all as rampant right-wingers due to their strong moralistic stance. I have never voted conservative in my life and I think maggie thatcher is a witch. Just goes to show http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Christian fundamentalist, some people dislike that term, literalist is preferred by many Christians I know...
Not being one myself, (no, thats no fair - I am a christian, its just someone once put it to me that I was the blind man in the bible who had to be touched twice...and have not yet recieved that second touch) and knowing there is not much respect for religion being shown here - I feel I have to jump into the ring in defence of missionaries.
I have been a missionary, yep, thats right, but as I said above - I only consider myself a not so devout christian, and there is no way on planet earth that I would ever push my faith on anyone, Christians are no different from others - I'm sure you;ve met scientists who are as vocal in ramming down your throat their 'religion' of science (but there is no way it can be a religion - thinking that way is far too often accepted, and potentailly very dangerous) and people who very loudly believe nothing are just as annoying to me as those who can quote reems of old testament bollocks at ma (that is not impressive either).
Religion only has a place if you let it have a place, for those who feel they need it. I used not to need it. I've seen people where it changed their lives, turned them from drug addiction etc...they scare me a little bit with their faith, I must say. In the modern world we seem to be control freaks...and we are not comfortable with losing control over ourselves - and having faith is a loss of control, the angry reaction comes from a fear of that.
It could be said that it is arrogant to deny any faith, and that indeed we are very fragile and weak. I believe that.
The reason why I would never attempt to convert anyone to anything is that faith comes from within - only within - when you need it you find it.
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"Situation excellente. J'attaque!"
to put it another way...in short
If you havn't found religion in any way then I am afraid you like the blind debating the colours of the rainbow, you know what order they come in, and you know the names of the colours, you may even be able to describe why they occur in nature, but you cannot see the beauty...
Whitey
Tachikaze
11-01-2002, 12:48
Your words are nice, Whitey, but they are kinda irrelevant to what much of the discussion is about. I don't think the main beef here is belief itself, but how religions as institutions have affected us.
I know a couple of people have said that religion is ignorance, but it's not clear whether they mean the belief itself or following political dogma.
I think it is important, for discussion purposes, to differentiate religion from spirituality or belief. I mean, belief is not really debatable, but politics is.
Another thing we have to be careful of is realizing that the word "religion" is being used to cover very different concepts. Shinto, which has no text, preaching, or regular weekly public attendance has little resemblance to Christianity.
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Knowing the Tao saves you thousands of dollars in psychiatric bills and credit card debt.
ah - Organised Religion. Bare with this post, it does reach a point.
Quote I think it is important, for discussion purposes, to differentiate religion from spirituality or belief. I mean, belief is not really debatable, but politics is.[/QUOTE]
I am slightly uncomfortable with this, it all depends on your point of view, religions couldn't exist without belief - and belief is the backbone of any religion. Without the human capacity for belief there would be no organised religion. This I think is relevant. Trying to divorce the faith element from the politics element is dangerous, as it does place religion on the same plane as science, and I am not sure that it should, under most (if any) circumstances, be placed there.
as you say, Christianity and Shinto are very different things, as are Zen traditions to orthodox Jewish practices. This, in my opinion, misses the point. A religion grows and develops through the culture of the society, representing that culture and its attitudes toward faith. The largest difference between most of the eastern and western traditions is the insistence in Islam and Christianity that they are the one true religions. Judaism is a slightly different case, having been born in earlier times. It is this nature of Islam and Christianity that set them up as adversarial.
Now comes the point, State Shinto (as opposed to the Shinto of earlier periods) emphasised and pushed in different directions - and this in itself proves that it can be used for the same purposes as Islamic fundamentalism. There are incidences in history of militant Buddhist sects, and peaceful Christian sects. But you would be right in saying the weight of evidence points to our western beliefs being more conflict orientated, this is because they explicitly allow Evangelists.
A deeper difference perhaps lies in philosophy, whilst in Japan I had many discussions with a Japanese who was very interested in this; he said the major differences in culture, and thus the way our societies react to religion, is that in the Buddhist tradition. Religious belief is based on enlightenment, and the world is seen as something that can be understood in its entirety once one has passed that point. In the west, we see things as more quantifiable, so we drive to understand more by learning many little things to build up a picture from the bottom up. We accept that we can never have ‘enlightenment’ and even think it arrogant and plainly stupid that anyone should. A response to this from the Buddhist side is to claim the arrogance of someone ever understanding the infinite world through trying to build a finite store of data in the head.
This is more than a difference in culture, the two views are diametrically opposite. With this huge difference, of course there are different reasons for people ‘turning to religion’ in east and west, and thus, religion is structured in different ways to accommodate them. This is where the political element comes in. These two different types of structure are organised for two different types of believer and thus present different opportunities.
In the western beliefs, those which accept their ignorance and weakness against the world ‘buy in’ to a religion which tries to provide certain hard and fast rules, authority, and in one case, now defunct, infallibility. This allows men with ambition to mould these rules, and to mould the views of the believers, making church power a dangerous thing. Even Islam, which preaches individuality and personal interpretation, has the Shiite sects, and a very authoritarian social Islamic law is written into the Koran.
In the east, religions tend to be looser, (but we must remember Tibetan Buddhism, which incidentally has had a rather violent history in places) and really based on less hard and fast rules. (Sikhs are stuck in between east and west, a religion born of the fiery conflict between Muslims and Hindus). This makes different kinds of men climb the ladder of religious hierarchy, thus making it far more difficult for one individual or a small cabal to successfully ‘manipulate the masses’.
Not 100% sure if this is the kind of thing that is more relevant to the discussion – but I think so.
Tachikaze
11-03-2002, 00:57
Whitey,
If your last post was not relevant to the discussion, it is the discussion now, in the true nature of the Dojo/Guild.
A good post. I think I can boil some of what I distinguish the East from the West to this:
In the West, belief is inseparable from religion. From my experience and study, religion in the East is less based on belief and more on ritual and tradition.
Of course, ritual is part of Western religions, and belief roots some of the Eastern relgions. But I think they differ in their emphasis. I think this distinction is critical.
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Knowing the Tao saves you thousands of dollars in psychiatric bills and credit card debt.
good posts all
i despise any organized religion/faith that claims it is the one and only truth. there is not one truth, but many truths
for example:
love is great.
this is true.
love stinks.
this is also true; the opposing nature of this is what makes it a Great truth.
another?
reality is preception.
preception is reality.
christianity is a parasite, by its very doctrine. it devouers all other forms of worship in its wake, calling them heresy.furthermore, how can one say that the perpetuation of the species is wrong some ppl should simply not be allowed to procreate, but saying that i am evil b/c 2 ppl did the dirty and made me is BS. in its origins, the Old Testament was a guidline for civilized living. dont eat shrimp or crabs, cause you will get get sick from it. yet instead of simply saying it as i just did, they put it forth as doctrine, saying that you must follow these guidlines for salvation. the commandments? common sense and courtesy. adding the salvation part is what got ppl to listen to it, for children dont listen to warnings as well as a good swat on the butt. the New Testament...Jesus is a great man, but i wouldnt take anything the Apostles said without a grain of salt. yep, just skip to the red ink (yet even that has been touched by mortal hands so keep the salt handy). the Truth is in the Bible (and the Koran...etc), but not not all of the Bible, nor all of the Truth http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
the mordern church is not a place of worship, but a place of community: it brings ppl together in a peacful way to reinforce themselves. even the "rock and roll" churches, just group org...er...affirmation. who can hold God in a building, what mortal can make a structure and call it holy? the greatest gift God gave us is creation. and this is only in that of giving birth, art and such is only creative. women must have a man to do it but it is the woman who is the true embodiment of it. but the Bible claims that women are, by nature, evil. they shouldnt even raise their voice to God in praise, so says the Old Testament. THAT IS HERESY Christianity is all about thinking that you are inferior, subordinate, wrong, evil etc. that wont get anybody anywhere. those who come up with the ideas that everybody thinks are BS are the ones who set revolution into motion. dam i cant remember the guy's name, but he conjectured that the earth revolves around the sun. he was killed for the assumption that the earth and its people were subordinate to the sun. then galaleio proved it. when the next poor guy gets enlightned, all the christians will call him the antichrist and kill him, then in a thousand years he will be the new jesus. just cause he did some miraculous thing and tried to tell other ppl how to do it.
science is also a "religion/church" and it has furthers the destruction of...wonder(or mabey majic). it restricts us further by defining what is real and what is not. it is eating away at the preception/reality thing. no matter, for christianity destroyed any chance of mass enlightenment a long time ago. now we are stuck doing things the hard way, with quantum physics and such. i think i will live to see the brain transplant, coupled with cloning we could have a sort of "immortality." i dont think the christians will let that happen though, our idiot (US)president wouldnt even allow zygote testing.
FAITH
this is what make all beleifs work. prayer works, tything works, it has happened to me i swear meditation works, my uncles obscure japaneese religion, mahakari, works(an ancestreal worship, healing power sort of thing). EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING WORKS IF YOU BELIEVE IT you dont need a church to do it; like nike, just friggin do it. it is human to make differences out of this, and fight others for it.it is human to build up our places of worship, and think that they are holy only because we say they are. it is human to think that only i am right and all of you are wrong(yep, thats what i think http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). this is all merely human folly.
for the record, i have met a handfull of good Christians, and i know the difference. at the same time
i have a belly full of idiot sheep and blind pulpit-pounding shepards, yet i still meet more. they tell me that i am bad and i am gonna go to ####(
Religion is the way humans use to convince themselves that there is an afterlife. Ever concidered that most of the religions do not tell us what and were we where before birth? All of them promise people afterlife though.
Oups sorry postino, did not see your post until I posted mine. I am sure though I will not have the last word.
ah, i was just trying to get ppl to continue the discussion.
good point, i tend to lean toward a reincarnation belief myself, but never have i ever heard a religion that beleives as such describe the place inbetween. the "one-life" religions never touch it. that should make them doubt that they even have a soul. OH i forgot that most of the followers of those "one-life" religions dont do much thinking (just following).
Hey Guys,
Just to lean things in the MTW direction, I reccomend having a read of "The Dream of the Rood", and Old English poem about the Crucifixion.
The Rood is a Cross. For Anglo Saxon Feudal Society, Christianity was a problematic religion, prescribing that you love your neighbours, forgive your enemies, live in peace (all those undesireable factors of Christianity in it's "true" form http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ).
When an enemy wronged you in Anglo Saxon society, you had to be repaid, either in the blood of an enemy, or "wergild", compensation money for a man's life.
In "The Dream of the Rood", the Cross of Christ is personified as a noble who serves his Lord valiantly, by standing high and supporting him as he is attacked by his enemies. Christ himself is portrayed as a valiant hero, along the lines of Beowulf, who in battle against his enemies has the strength to "turn the other cheek", and accept physical defeat in return for Spiritual victory.
The first "Dream/Vision" Poem in the English language, a fantastic and groundbreaking acheivement for it's time, and you don't even have to be Christian to enjoy it.
Smile, God loves you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Azrael
Wavesword
11-23-2002, 08:39
The pre-existence of the soul used to be an issue in Christianity but was eventually stamped out. Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire & Russell's A History of Western Philosophy (both non-believers) have entertaining (can't vouch for historical accuracy, but then who can?) accounts of the struggles of early Christianity. Many religions have evolved/corrupted so much over hundreds and thousands of years that arguments from history are practically irrelevant to today's believers.
Reading The Tale of Genji has given me a fondness for the pessimism of some Buddhist traditions, a little different from the Tibetean versions I'm encountering presently.
To parallel Azrael here's an extract from the Elder Edda that sounds rather Christian no? It's the story of how Odin acquired his runes.
http://asatru.org/havamal.html
138
Wounded I hung on a wind-swept gallows
For nine long nights,
Pierced by a spear, pledged to Odhinn,
Offered, myself to myself
The wisest know not from whence spring
The roots of that ancient rood
139
They gave me no bread,
They gave me no mead,
I looked down;
with a loud cry
I took up runes;
from that tree I fell.
Hey Waves,
Good ol Snorri.
It doesn't stop there. Baldur (we're sticking with the Edda here) was the god of Love. When he was born, the Aesir (Norse Gods) loved him so much that they made everything in the world swear and oath never to harm him.
Everything except mistletoe that is, as Freia (I'm sure I'm spelling that wrong), queen of the gods decided that mistletoe was too young to swear such an oath.
Now, since nothing in the world could harm Baldur, one of the favourite passtimes of the gods was to throw things at Baldur. Axes, swords, mammals. Since nothing could hurt him.
Loki, the god of mischeif learned that mistletoe was excluded from the oath. Joined in the fun, chucked a stem of mistletoe at Baldur and bang He died.
This was the beginning of the end for the Norse Gods. Ragnarrok, the Twilight of the Gods, in which the forces of evil gang up on the gods and creation is destroyed.
However, from the ruins of creation, Baldur appears anew, bringing ressurection to the world, creating a new heaven and a new earth.
Hey, maybe Christianity is in fact derived from Norse Mythology? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Azrael
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