Consider a Hypothetical Engagement of...

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

... Twenty Toxotai vs. Twenty Drapanai. Who would win the battle :clown:?

By "Twenty" I mean the unit cards, not the units themselves (size 160 for Drapanai and 120 for Toxotai on Huge).

[Tellos Athenaios]

It depends on who are in the hands of AI...

[HunGeneral]

I didn't vote because:


It depends on who are in the hands of AI...

Yes pluss who of them are standing on a hill, are they in open terain or in wooded area - are we talking about simple toxotai or any special variant (Kretikoi, syrians, etc. etc.)....

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

The Toxotai are simple, both are humans, terrain conditions can be set and discussed at will.

[DaciaJC]

Yes pluss who of them are standing on a hill, are they in open terain or in wooded area - are we talking about simple toxotai or any special variant (Kretikoi, syrians, etc. etc.)....

Variant wouldn't matter much in this case, except for range. Any archer unit can mow down Drapanai... :sweatdrop:

Depends on the range. If you open up a custom battle and start off both armies in their default positions, the Toxotai would wipe out the Drapanai before they closed the distance even halfway. If, however, the Drapanai were able to charge into the Toxotai after just two or three volleys, victory would easily be theirs.

I suppose a test could be made with 3 AI players and a human player. This would split the field into four quadrants, with the main contenders (the Drapanai and Toxotai) hopefully mirroring each others' position and you with one unit across from an AI player with one unit.

[mountaingoat]

arrows just stop mid flight and hit the ground before the drap.

[A Very Super Market]

Drapanai. Western Archers simply do not win battles.

[Azathoth]

Archers. As soon as the Drapanai close with them, the final volley will shatter their morale and they will rout. I'm assuming the AI is controlling the Drapanai and that this is taking place in the Flat Plain map or whatever it's called.

[DaciaJC]

Drapanai have a morale of 15. With so many men on the battlefield, it is unlikely that they will rout before having their unit size reduced to ~20 or less (normal unit sizes).

If this was a human vs. human match-up, I would predict that the Toxotai would win. It would be too easy to pull back all of the archers and set them up so as to form a crossfire, especially if the Toxotai have the height advantage.

In a human vs. AI battle however, the Drapanai can easily win.

[Kevin]

or if your auto resolve, the drapanai would definately win. try 2 toxotai vs. 2 garamantine infantry, they have less armor than the drapanai:2thumbsup:

[DaciaJC]

You sure?

Both Drapanai and Garamantine Infantry have 1 armor.

[Kevin]

not in the documentation :juggle2:

[WinsingtonIII]

If the player has control of the Drapanai and puts a few units in front spread into loose formation to absorb the bulk of the initial volleys, then hopefully the other Drap units behind would not be so depleted and this could allow them to close with the Toxotai without being annihilated. Once melee ensues, the Drapanai will certainly win. Now if the player has control of the Toxotai and manages them well, avoiding melee, the Toxotai could certainly win as well.

As for routing, I don't think the Draps would rout due to missile fire. They have too high morale for that (especially if the units they are going to engage in melee are only Toxotai). It's more likely that they'll simply be shot down to the last man.

I think it's really decided by which side has a player controlling and which side the AI. But I voted for Drapanai just to even up the poll.

[Julius Augustus]

Oh, they will rout. Sudden casualties like losing 30 men in 5 seconds cause huge morale drops. When the unit is already half depleted, losing 30 guys at once is like being charged in the back with heavy cavalry=insta route.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Not realistic. With many units, tactics are an issue. Any good RTW tactician, or simply a superb micromanager can win with either one. I will test in a 1 unit vs. 1 unit, placing the Drapanai beyond Toxotai range in EB Singleplayer when I get the chance.

[the man with no name]

Not realistic. With many units, tactics are an issue. Any good RTW tactician, or simply a superb micromanager can win with either one. I will test in a 1 unit vs. 1 unit, placing the Drapanai beyond Toxotai range in EB Singleplayer when I get the chance.


Exactly. To close to call. It would be easier to decide in a 1 unit v. 1 unit battle like Aemilius said.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Exactly. To close to call. It would be easier to decide in a 1 unit v. 1 unit battle like Aemilius said.
Yes, but also there comes the issue of fire arrows. Should I use the fire at will or not?

[antisocialmunky]

It'd be a draw. Drapnai can't catch toxotai but toxotai can't stop and shoot. I've played beserker Getai online before and msisiles usually don't stop it.

[Aemilius Paulus]

It'd be a draw.
You know very well that is impossible.

[antisocialmunky]

K... Getai user is playing on huge, forward deploys in loose in a line stretching from map end to map end and run at the toxotai:

http://www.filefront.com/14541239/Drapnaiwin.rpy

No escape. I demand a balloon for 3 minutes of my time that I spent on that. I think people underestimate how much toxotai suck as loose wasn't even needed. They even focused on the center and still failed due to their ridiculously suck range. I mean, their range is about only 2/3rds of any decent archer...

[A Very Super Market]

Drapanai. Western Archers simply do not win battles.

Hi all. For all the armour a bare chest provides, it proves no match for an arrow. However, the arrow must actually manage to hit their rippling muscles to have an effect.

[antisocialmunky]

Hi all. For all the armour a bare chest provides, it proves no match for an arrow. However, the arrow must actually manage to hit their rippling muscles to have an effect.

Exactly if you see above.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I did my own intensive study. Toxotai clearly lose on Medium difficulty, Large unit size, 1unit vs 1unit, but achieve slightly more kills than Drapnai before routing. The range and most importantly, their low unit size is the winning factor for Drapnai. Even when the last delivered volley is fire arrows (to dent the morale of Drapnai), the archers lose.

On the other hand, Sphendonetai come fairly close to winning, having much higher kills than Drapanai before routing at about 20 men. In some battles, the numbers came down to 10 slingers vs 10-15 falxmen, before the former routed. Slinger range, superior to that of Toxotai, was the deciding factor.

Nevertheless, the two Hellenic, basic ranged units always lost, killing no more than 10 Drapnai in melee combat. However, when I went to EDU and changed the size of Toxotai or Sphendonetai to 80 men, they usually won. Size is the deciding factor for both, especially the slingers, whereas the archers could use range.



What is very interesting that I have found is that indeed, drawing up one's own ranged units in two or three lines/rows almost doubles their ranged losses inflicted, as opposed to having four or more lines/rows of men. So always line up your archers/slingers in no more than three lines!!! It is indeed true that this game mechanic remains unchanged from MTW.

However, I cannot say and doubt myself whether a similar bonus exists for deeper lines of spearmen. I believe it should, as historically, shallow spearmen lines would get annihilated. But in RTW, it makes more sense to extend your lines to facilitate flanking. So my pike phalanx lines, for example, are always either three or four rows in depth, to make flanking easier for my army. As for all other non-pike phalanx units, they are always three men deep in field battles.






I demand more balloons than antisocialmunky for a much closer, more detailed, and more useful explanation, as well as for doing exactly 20 trials :snobby::clown:

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Here, take a balloon AP: :balloon2:.

[Kevin]

What is very interesting that I have found is that indeed, drawing up one's own ranged units in two or three lines/rows almost doubles their ranged losses inflicted, as opposed to having four or more lines/rows of men. So always line up your archers/slingers in no more than three lines!!! It is indeed true that this game mechanic remains unchanged from MTW.

When you say lines, you you mean ranks?

[DaciaJC]

lines/rows of men.

So yes, he means ranks.

[WinsingtonIII]

Oh, they will rout. Sudden casualties like losing 30 men in 5 seconds cause huge morale drops. When the unit is already half depleted, losing 30 guys at once is like being charged in the back with heavy cavalry=insta route.

I've seen units with less base morale than Drapanai come sallying out to meet my armies (so they are already at about 2/3 strength) get devastated by arrow fire (not fire arrows though) and not rout. Instead they just all die after a few volleys. If they so much as touch one of my units in melee while they're in this bombarded state though, they run for the hills. I don't know, this was just my experience during a campaign with medium battle difficulty. Maybe they had some ridiculous general bonuses (I think it was an eleutheroi city and those generals usually have ridiculous stats).

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Oh and forgot your tests, ASM. Take a balloon too: :balloon2:.

[antisocialmunky]

Thnx. Just to add, Toxotai aren't that bad. Their main job is to take out opposing psiloi who has to stand still and wear the same pathetic armor. And considering that Sphendontai are some of the most cost effective troops in the game, well... toxotai are pretty important if you want to counter them before cretans show up.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Here, take a balloon AP: :balloon2:.
I was not actually serious... I mean, come on, the clown have should have said it all, n'est-ce pas? I bet you gave me the balloon just out of trollish urges, to aggravate me, did you not?

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Yes of course :clown:. I thought you didn't get over that balloon mania anyway.

[Ludens]

What is very interesting that I have found is that indeed, drawing up one's own ranged units in two or three lines/rows almost doubles their ranged losses inflicted, as opposed to having four or more lines/rows of men. So always line up your archers/slingers in no more than three lines!!! It is indeed true that this game mechanic remains unchanged from MTW.

Interesting. Puzz3D reported that this was not the case, but it may have changed with later patches. Could you post the exact, numeric results?