Speutogordoz

[Kikaz]

Speutogordoz are supposed to be a sort of phalanx type infantry; however, their shields have a rating of 2, whereas Phalangitai have a shield rating of 5 (whilst often having smaller shields too) AND the "phalanx" formation's frontal defensive bonus. So, since the "phalanx" formation was removed from the Speutogordoz, shouldn't their shield values be raised to compensate?,

[Kevin]

I wondered the same thing, but I'm guessing they took them out because it'd be unrealistic to have them in a Macedonian phalanx?

PS: Speudogordoz

[Kikaz]

I wondered the same thing, but I'm guessing they took them out because it'd be unrealistic to have them in a Macedonian phalanx?

PS: Speudogordoz

Well, yes, but they still had a very similar formation, and it escapes me as to why they would fair so pathetically to missile fire compared to even Pantodapoi Phalangitai when they have nearly the same equipment. So I'm somewhat convinced that the shields were mistakenly nerfed.

PS: Still haven't completely gotten used to the new spellings :wall:

[Julius Augustus]

Phalanx units have bloated shield ratings. Having all those spears above you is not going to help when the arrows are coming at you from the front. Simply lower the shield value of phalangites to 3 for more realistic phalanxes. Also, if you want to give the speutogardoz the phalanx ability, PM Amelius Paullos.

[team_kramnik]

Wouldn't giving them ap be a better option to keep them viable? Prevents them from being wannabe-phalangites and suits their description. If things go wrong they might get shot to pieces but ap-pikes, slaganz and chatti-youth might convince even a Sarmatian FM to ride around that forest and not thorugh it.

[Mediolanicus]

PS: Speudogordoz

Speuðogordoz actually.

Speuthogordoz if you want to write it without the "eth".

[antisocialmunky]

Phalanx units have bloated shield ratings. Having all those spears above you is not going to help when the arrows are coming at you from the front. Simply lower the shield value of phalangites to 3 for more realistic phalanxes. Also, if you want to give the speutogardoz the phalanx ability, PM Amelius Paullos.

The shield rating is fairly accurate since phalanxes never had alot of problems versus steppe archers. People theorize that the ridiculous amount of pikes caused arrows to bounce off of them and become harmless.

Later swiss pikemen didn't even use armor.

[Tollheit]

What I did:
-reduced shield value for cheap phalangites by 2 and increased defensive skill by 3, for standart and elite phalangites decreased shield value by 1, increased defence skill by 2
-gave mount_effect horse +2 to Speuthogordoz

Edit: thanks to the shield x2 effect of the phalanx ability, the effective shield value of levy phalangites is still better than that of any non-phalanx unit in the game

[Kikaz]

What I did:
-reduced shield value for cheap phalangites by 2 and increased defensive skill by 3, for standart and elite phalangites decreased shield value by 1, increased defence skill by 2
-gave mount_effect horse +2 to Speuthogordoz

Edit: thanks to the shield x2 effect of the phalanx ability, the effective shield value of levy phalangites is still better than that of any non-phalanx unit in the game

I'm thinking that a shield value of 5 (speuthogordoz) might be appropriate to make up for the lost 2x shield rating and still keep them from being true phalangitai.



Re: Speutogordoz
Wouldn't giving them ap be a better option to keep them viable? Prevents them from being wannabe-phalangites and suits their description. If things go wrong they might get shot to pieces but ap-pikes, slaganz and chatti-youth might convince even a Sarmatian FM to ride around that forest and not thorugh it.
I like this idea too. I hadn't thought of that; they do after all, have freaking swords on the end of their pikes so the AP could be understandable to represent it...

[Kevin]

Giving the Speutogordoz the AP ability would be ridiculous! The Germans already get so many armour piercing units, an additional ap phalanx would be overboard. I already find it kind of strange that units wielding wooden clubs can break armour.

[Olaf The Great]

Speuðogordoz actually.

Speuthogordoz if you want to write it without the "eth".
Yay another person knows wtf an eth is...my name has one

Davið

[bobbin]

It doesn't need to break the armour the real killer is the blunt force of the blow (which clubs and maces are better in transmitting to the target than swords or spears) which could break bones and burst internal organs without damaging the armour. Getting hit by a club while wearing chain mail would be little different from being hit whilst wearing nothing. Also IIRC some of the unit descriptions say they used to put pieces of bone or metal into the clubs to allow them to punch holes in armour.

[Mediolanicus]

Yay another person knows wtf an eth is...my name has one

Davið

Hey, I'm from Belgium. I know everything... :clown:

[Macilrille]

It doesn't need to break the armour the real killer is the blunt force of the blow (which clubs and maces are better in transmitting to the target than swords or spears) which could break bones and burst internal organs without damaging the armour. Getting hit by a club while wearing chain mail would be little different from being hit whilst wearing nothing. Also IIRC some of the unit descriptions say they used to put pieces of bone or metal into the clubs to allow them to punch holes in armour.

At this time of year we admit new prospective members to come and train with us. We put them through a rigourus training programme. One of the things we do is to let them train with a socalled "Bøllekølle" (literally Thug-Club). It is a 5 cm across, 70-80 cm long oak club with a band of metal fastened around the top to give it the proper balance for a weapon. I guess it weighs 2.5 Kg or so, and I tell you that if I was wearing my chainmail I would rather be hit by a sword than that or an axe. It transmits tremendous force and can easily shatter bones.

www.ask-viking.dk

[Cute Wolf]

About the shield rating, I didn't reduce the Phalangitai's rate, I raise the "Phalangitai wannabe" shield values...

[Kikaz]

The Results of my experimentation (unit size: large):

Vanilla-
Spuedogorðoz vs. Toxotai= Toxotai inflicted 19 casualties with their arrows.

Spuedogorðoz vs. Triarii (Polybian)= Triarii victory, Spuedogorðoz inflict 39 casualties.

Spuedogorðoz vs. Principes (Polybian)= Principes victory (6 casualties for 1 javelin volley,) Spuedogorðoz inflict 32 casualties.

Spuedogorðoz vs. Lugoae= Spuedogorðoz victory, Lugoae inflict 47 casualties.


Shield +2-
Spuedogorðoz vs. Toxotai= Toxotai inflicted 9 casualties with their arrows.

Spuedogorðoz vs. Triarii (Polybian)= Triarii victory, Spuedogorðoz inflict 45 casualties.

Spuedogorðoz vs. Principes (Polybian)= Principes victory (3 casualties for 1 javelin volley,) Spuedogorðoz inflict 59 casualties.


Shield +3, Defense skill -1-
Spuedogorðoz vs. Toxotai= Toxotai inflicted 3 casualties with their arrows.

Spuedogorðoz vs. Triarii (Polybian)= Spuedogorðoz victory, Triarii inflict 67 casualties

Spuedogorðoz vs. Principes (Polybian)= Principes victory (2 casualties for 1 javelin volley,) Spuedogorðoz inflict 70 casualties.

Spuedogorðoz vs. Leuce Epos= Spuedogorðoz victory, Leuce Epos inflict 21 casualties (0 casualties inflicted by entire javelin supply)

Spuedogorðoz vs. Pantodapoi Phalangitai= Pantodapoi Phalangitai victory, Spuedogorðoz inflict 1 casualty.


Shield +3, Defense skill -1, Armor Penetration, -1 Attack-
Spuedogorðoz vs. Triarii (Polybian)= Spuedogorðoz victory, Triarii inflict 31 casualties.

Spuedogorðoz vs. Principes (Polybian)= Spuedogorðoz victory, Principes inflict 28 casualties (1 casualty for 1 javelin volley.)

Spuedogorðoz vs. Leuce Epos= Spuedogorðoz victory, Leuce Epos inflict 16 casualties (1 casualty
inflicted by entire javelin supply.)

Spuedogorðoz vs. Spartiate Hoplitai= Spuedogorðoz victory, Spartiate Hoplitai inflict 41 casualties.

Spuedogorðoz vs. Lugoae= Spuedogorðoz victory, Lugoae inflict 40 casualties.




Conclusion-

Increasing the shield value of the Spuedogorðoz by 3, lowering the attack and defense skills by 1, and adding AP, produces what seems to match the description most closely. They aren't quite as invulnerable to arrows as Phalangitai, but they aren't supposed to be either. Spuedogorðoz are now the most efficient melee (non-phalanx) cavalry killer and can now work as sort of a defensive version of Druxtiz ßastarniska. There was no way to fix the incredible weakness that Spuedogorðoz have to flanking and encirclement (which is why the Lugoae inflicted so many casualties,) because giving them their swords back doesn't quite render properly.

Other Findings-

Spuedogorðoz are awful if given phalanx mode. I tried them out, and they're simply not a large enough unit to effectively use phalanx (and their pikes and pike-heads get much shorter.) Findings were quite similar when Spuedogorðoz were given the "short_pike" attribute. The "spear" attribute made them pathetic fighters who would sometimes completely turn their backs to the enemy in combat.

"short_pike" attribute creates a more accurate hoplite phalanx than what is currently used in EB.

Dungunðiz murder Principes...

Other Notes-

If anyone wants, I can upload my "export_unit_descr" to the mini-mods section... I'm probably going to be working on a more ambitious modification of the spear-troops of EB.

[DaciaJC]

I think giving Spuedogorðoz the AP ability is erroneous. Units don't have AP to balance themselves out: they are given the AP ability because historically the weapons they used were able to pierce or blunt armor. This was not the case with pike phalanxes.

[Kikaz]

I think giving Spuedogorðoz the AP ability is erroneous. Units don't have AP to balance themselves out: they are given the AP ability because historically the weapons they used were able to pierce or blunt armor. This was not the case with pike phalanxes.

Load up EB multiplayer

Click single Player

Go to custom battle

make your faction Sweboz

give yourself a unit of Spuedogorðoz (and whatever for the enemy, it is moot)

when the battle starts, pause, and right-click your Spuedogorðoz unit card...


... You see?:clown:

[DaciaJC]

Thanks for mitigating the humiliation with a clown smiley...

I wonder why the EB team didn't originally give them AP, then.

[Kevin]

I'm sure any sarissa can be AP, as long as the wielder is strong enough, especially if the target runs straight at the point. :smash:

[Kikaz]

Thanks for mitigating the humiliation with a clown smiley...

I wonder why the EB team didn't originally give them AP, then.

You're very welcome my friend.

The EB team has missed a few things... I mean, even in version 1.2 we still have units with backwards spears.

[Kikaz]

I'm sure any sarissa can be AP, as long as the wielder is strong enough, especially if the target runs straight at the point. :smash:

Spuedogorðoz don't have Sarissas though. They've a shorter pike that has, like, a freakin sword on the end.

[king of thracia]

Load up EB multiplayer

Click single Player

Go to custom battle

make your faction Sweboz

give yourself a unit of Spuedogorðoz (and whatever for the enemy, it is moot)

when the battle starts, pause, and right-click your Spuedogorðoz unit card...


... You see?:clown:

There's an easier way to look up units. Besides browsing through the data files, there's http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/

I don't mean to use up the man's bandwidth, but he has rendered a public service for all to see

[Andronikos]

The EB team has missed a few things... I mean, even in version 1.2 we still have units with backwards spears.

I don't know which unit you mean, but few spearmen, especially those fighting in classic hoplite style have spears with two spearheads, larger one in the front and a smaller one in the back, it was used to finish fallen soldiers while walking over them, turning the spear wouldn't be practical and possible without breaking the formation.

[Kevin]

Well then, shouldn't Camilian Principe have AP then too? Their spearheads are huge. And he means when hoplite units walk, they flip their spear into the ground.

[Phalanx300]

Might be because its two handed and thus has much more force behind it, and the Speutaz was apparantly really big, maybe 40 cm or something? I'm wondering though how long was the entire spear?

[bobbin]

I'm not sure the team intended them to have AP as their spears already have higher lethality than all other non sarissa spears (0.15 which is exactly half way between normal spears and sarissa) even those of the other psuedo-phalanx units.

[Kikaz]

Well then, shouldn't Camilian Principe have AP then too? Their spearheads are huge. And he means when hoplite units walk, they flip their spear into the ground.

Principes have the same size spear head as Gaeroas.

Does no one play as Sweboz!? :inquisitive: I was referring to the spearmen (Chauci Spearmen) who literally have backwards spears, as in, they stab only each other... And I think there's another unit of backwards spearmen but I don't remember what they were.....


I'm not sure the team intended them to have AP as their spears already have higher lethality than all other non sarissa spears (0.15 which is exactly half way between normal spears and sarissa) even those of the other psuedo-phalanx units.

well... It works, it's not over powered or anything. They still pale in comparison to the sheer killing fury exhibited by falxmen, axemen, clubmen, and broadswordsmen (probably because .15 lethality is less than any of theirs, and their attack speed is slower, plus the dis-advantage spears have against infantry.) The Spuedogorðoz still get :daisy: by phalangitai (x10), falxmen, and broadswordsmen, as well as most axemen, and virtually any kind of flanking.

[athanaric]

And I think there's another unit of backwards spearmen but I don't remember what they were.....
Gaut Spearmen.

[Ludens]

Well then, shouldn't Camilian Principe have AP then too? Their spearheads are huge.

I doubt it. For good armour-piercing properties you'd expect spearheads to be thin rather than big, so I am guessing the AP is a mistake too.

[Kikaz]

I doubt it. For good armour-piercing properties you'd expect spearheads to be thin rather than big, so I am guessing the AP is a mistake too.

on an unrelated note...
I like your taste in censorship Ludens :laugh4:!


Gaut Spearmen.

yeah, that's them...

[NeoSpartan]

fellas here is the deal:

Phalangitai units have 5 shield value in EB to make them STRONGER in a frontal assult. However, phalangitai units have their other defense values lower so they are WEAKER when hit in the rear.

In EB the Speutogordoz are not represented as phalangitai like the Macedonian version. They are slightly different, from the discussions in this forum when the Speutogordoz were introduced at 1st they were like a Macedonian phalanx, but this was changed.

As for the AP value of Speutogordoz. Their pikes were notorios for having a longer than usual point, and their pikes are NOT like the Macedonian's.

[Macilrille]

However, these very big spearheads are designed to dish out harm to unarmoured opponents.

Big, broad spearheads = max damage to unarmed, little penetration against armour; Pushing lots of metal surface through much metal surface is hard while against unarmoured you can make huge gashes slashing and stabbing with it). However, against horses it is an excellent option if these are unarmoured (which in that period and area they were).

Slender spearheads = max damage to armoured opponents, not much different to unarmoured (easier to push a small metal area through another metal surface, but you cannot in the same way make huge gashes with slender points).

So perhaps, no AP, but more damage?

Edited to add, Ludens already said that.

[ziegenpeter]

Big, broad spearheads = max damage to unarmed, little penetration against armour; Pushing lots of metal surface through much metal surface is hard while against unarmoured you can make huge gashes slashing and stabbing with it).

Which makes totally sense, since there wasnt so much armor around in germania at that time.

[Kevin]

How exactly does the AP ability work anyways? Does it entirely neglect the other units armor or is it a partial advantage. For example, when facing a unit like the Dosidataskeli (which sadly has been taken out:no:), I can understand units like the Drapanai being able to penetrate their armor with their Falxes, but not units like the Illyrioi Paraktioi being able to do the same with their clubs.

[The General]

How exactly does the AP ability work anyways? Does it entirely neglect the other units armor or is it a partial advantage. For example, when facing a unit like the Dosidataskeli (which sadly has been taken out:no:), I can understand units like the Drapanai being able to penetrate their armor with their Falxes, but not units like the Illyrioi Paraktioi being able to do the same with their clubs.

AP units take into account only half the armour iirc.

[Phalanx300]

The point with clubs being AP is that they wont be able to penetrate the heavy armour but the force of the blow still goes trough.

[Kikaz]

However, these very big spearheads are designed to dish out harm to unarmoured opponents.

Big, broad spearheads = max damage to unarmed, little penetration against armour; Pushing lots of metal surface through much metal surface is hard while against unarmoured you can make huge gashes slashing and stabbing with it). However, against horses it is an excellent option if these are unarmoured (which in that period and area they were).

Slender spearheads = max damage to armoured opponents, not much different to unarmoured (easier to push a small metal area through another metal surface, but you cannot in the same way make huge gashes with slender points).

So perhaps, no AP, but more damage?

Edited to add, Ludens already said that.

Spuedogorðoz do have pretty slender spearheads...
I'll try out giving them more lethality (instead of AP,) I'll post the results when I'm done