View Full Version : Most influential person in history?
Mount Suribachi
10-06-2002, 13:00
This was inspired by the book "A short history of Byzantium" by John Julius Norwich.
On page1, chapter 1 he says this
"Constantine I, Emporer of Rome. No ruler in all history has ever more fully merited his title of "the Great"; for within the short space of 15 years he took 2 decisions, either of which alone would have changed the future of the civilised world. The 1st was to adopt christianity as the official religion of the Roman empire. The 2nd was to transfer the capital of that Empire from Rome to the new city which he was building on the site of old Byzantium and which was to be known, for the next 16 centuries, by his name: Constantinople. Together, these 2 decisions have given him a serious claim to be considered - excepting only Jesus Christ, the Buddha and the prophet Mohammed - the most influential man in all history."
And that really got me thinking....hmmm, was Constantine the Great the most
influential man in all history..?
Using his rules - no Jesus Christ, Buddha or Mohammed (cos we all know it's Jesus don't we children http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ) who do you nominate as most influential person in history - with a short
description why as well please
My only Caveat is - think hard and think good! Anyone from the last 200 years has to have a good case IMH, simply becos their impact on history is over a relatively short span
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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war"
Ilya Ehrenburg
The Black Ship
10-06-2002, 19:19
Well then since we don't want religious icons, how about the man that started it all by hearing voices. Abraham is the father of so many religions/cults/sects he has to be given serious consideration.
queen elizabeth of england.
it was under her rule that england, after defeating the spanish armada, went from a minor to a global power. allowing the english to completely steal 2 continents [n. america and australia] and establish provinces all across the globe. even though this forum has worldwide membership, we all speak english to communicate here.
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indeed
Sjakihata
10-07-2002, 00:14
Yes, we speak english here only because we are too dull ot be bothred speaking chinese, which are the language spoken by most people...
I like to think that some old philosopher who defined norms and deed that are followed even now are the most influential simply because we all follow them... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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*bows* - Power to the Sultan!
Clan Seljuk
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
10-07-2002, 05:45
Karl MArx http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Hakonarson
10-07-2002, 08:41
Eve
Forward Observer
10-07-2002, 10:59
My vote goes for Guttenberg, and the invention of the first practical printing press.
How else would the world have progressed as fast as it did with out the printed word
available to just about anybody.
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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
[This message has been edited by Forward Observer (edited 10-07-2002).]
Rosacrux
10-07-2002, 12:55
Aga Baga Huga - the cave man who invented the wheel. It's the same cave man who invented fire. Something like an Eddisson of his times http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Seriously, though:
Actually, it's Aristotle. The whole western way of thinking is based upon his pragmatic approach.
this is an Aristotelian world, you know. The way we think, the way we interprete things, the way we act - all is perceived after Aristotles teachings.
Sjakihata
10-07-2002, 14:48
Just like I suggested...
Swoosh So
10-08-2002, 15:56
Tony Blair... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Stephen Hummell
10-09-2002, 05:55
That dude who stoped varus in the german woods.
that would be 'herman the german' better known as arminius
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indeed
stilicho
10-09-2002, 11:44
the guy who put the 3rd ply on toilet paper
Protoman
10-11-2002, 22:31
Thinking on more recent terms.. The world would be a VERY different place if Gavrillo Princip hadn't shot Franz Ferdinand in 1912.
SO many things were warped because of the outbreaks of WW1 that it boggles the mind to think what it would be like without.
That is more of an influencial event though, Gavrillo himself doesn't deserve the credit.
In terms of single persons who have shaped the world to what it is today... THere are too many to list. THe world is too complicated to narrow it down to a single person.
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
10-12-2002, 00:27
Nope WWI would have had strated even without the shooting of the crown prince...the Hapsburgs where itching for war..because they knew serbia was weak at the time because of the 2 balkan wars it fought and was not ready to fight (even though they kickd the austrians in the butt...i took german troops to finaly beat the serbs)
The Hapsburgs did not want to wait because they feard in a year or 2 it would be the serbs attacking them...plus they feard a grand uprising in Bosnia...so they were desperate in trying to find a reason for the war.
In addition every country in Europe was itching for war http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
But back to the topic...I still stand with Karl MArk http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
No real reason...i just like him
Mount Suribachi
10-12-2002, 12:29
Thanks guys, some good (and not so good!) answers. My initial 2 thoughts were Karl Marx and Martin Luther. However, Guttenberg replaces Luther in my thinking. The reformation would not have happened without the availability of the Bible in the "common" languages. Increased literacy (often driven by the desire to read the bible) took power out of the hands of the clergy and the noble classes (previously just about the only ones who could read and write). Larger scale literacy and ease of producing books enabled the explosion in learning of the last 500 years and led to tremendous social, political, economic and religious reform.
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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war"
Ilya Ehrenburg
[This message has been edited by Mount Suribachi (edited 10-12-2002).]
I don't believe this! Wake up! The most influential person got to be Gütenberg...
No Gütenberg no books for the masses. No books for the masses we'd still be living in some kind of dark ages
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
10-13-2002, 21:55
Did it perhaps occur to you that somebdoy els would have inveted the press even the same year aswell.
Not to mention that they already had printing press in China way befor http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Marx? Hmm yes he was influential but how about Fredrick Engels? Or we can go further back. How about Adam Smith with his "The Wealth of Nations"? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I stick to my Gütenberg
Adolph Hitler.
More people died due to his regime than any other.
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It's getting warm in here...that must be one hell of an INFERNO!
Zen Blade
10-15-2002, 07:07
In my day....
we often were amazed at... uh... what was I saying again...
I think, you have to consider "religious" ppl, not "deities" but original spreaders of religions, whether it is Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hindi, Buddhism, or some other religion.
Also, who ever emphasized education... The ppl who cam up with the great library, ppl who believed in teaching and thought. Those are always the originators of ideas, but they rarily inact them... Many a philosopher has failed b/c he can't relate to ppl..
That leads us to the natural leaders, the ppl who can speak to everyone and convey thought and purpose. That leads to ppl like Augustus, but even they can be easily stopped by military power... look at Genghis and his mongols or the huns....
In the end, the answer is simply no one person. Everything runs together to the point that no one person can be credited the most with regards to society or the world.
If you want to be more specifc, an answer may be possible. For example, who was the most important person of WWII... If we can get 1/3 of the ppl to agree on that, then maybe we can move on to something else...
I vote for Churchill, or maybe FDR... ohhhh... I don't know...
anyways, I vote for Aristotle based solely on the fact that in the western world his ideas were kept around for the longest (even though they were quite wrong)... But that is merely due to an influence of thought. I doubt anyone who couldn't read would know who he was. (which was most ppl between the greek times and the medievel times)
-Zen Blade
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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity, Retired
SHS Core Member, Retired
Derelict from an older age.
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
10-15-2002, 08:13
Wrong mate not Adolf but Stalin.
That Bad boy had 20 milion of his people killed.
Youd be shocked to know that the russians treated the jews even worse then the nazis...they didnt even pretend thjey were gopnna deport them they just had them shot...monarchists they said
Well, you could argue that Hitler caused WW2. Now, forget the millions that the Nazis outright massacred. Add up all the deaths from all nations from all causes during that period, and it is an impressive sum.
Of course, the Japanese rape of China might beat it. What was it, 100 million? Forgive me if that's a bit high, but I don't recall clearly.
..
But really it is foolish to assume that Hitler caused WW2. WW2 was simply the aftermath of WW1 and the way the conquered Germans were handled-- being gravely drained and insulted but not actually shackled.
But one could still argue that WW2 was much more savage due to Hitler-- an argument I would agree with. With a competent German chief of state, Germany would have IMO, either through negotiation or military victories, reinstated itself as a power to be respected and left it at that. At the very least we can assume that Russia would not have ever been attacked without Hitler, and that was the most savage front of the European theater.
Japs still might beat 'em tho. And there the blame would rest mostly with the Japanese leadership's overzealous concept of foreign policy (i.e. severe immaturity)..
Del
Rosacrux
10-15-2002, 12:41
An interesting anecdote about politics, politicians, PCness and fate http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif :
you are about to vote for the world leader. There are three candidates.
The first candidate is corrupt and doesn't get off bed before getting the advice of his personal astrologist. He's got two mistresses and drinks 8-10 martinis a day.
The second candidate has been fired twice, sleeps till noon, smoked opium for years and is still an obsessive smoker and drinks a bottle of scotch every night.
The third candidate is a known war hero, a vegetarian, never had relationships outside a wedding and he only occasionaly drinks a beer or two.
which one would you pick and why?
Rosacrux I got that one on my mail one day. And choice number 3 cause he seemed most credible. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Rosacrux
10-15-2002, 15:18
Quite credible, indeed http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Mount Suribachi
10-15-2002, 21:33
Quote Originally posted by Rosacrux:
The third candidate never had relationships outside a wedding [/QUOTE]
Ummm, Eva Braun? He didn't marry her until just before he shot himself (and her)
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We speak of deep night, deep autumn; when I think back to the year 1943 I feel like saying "deep war"
Ilya Ehrenburg
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
10-15-2002, 21:37
Yep candidate 3 is Hitler http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Made a good point there though http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Well, if #3 is Hitler, then who the hell are numbers 1 and 2??? I hope not anyone who has ever been a head of state!
Del
Rosacrux
10-16-2002, 11:58
Well...
#1 Is Franklin Delano Roosevelt himself, the best leader USA ever had (if you are a Democrat, at least http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif )
#2 Is Winston Churchill, nevertheless. One of the greatest leaders of the Old Albion and surely one of the most influental of the past century.
Makes you wonder... You know how these things are... nobody's perfect...
[This message has been edited by Rosacrux (edited 10-16-2002).]
Hirosito
10-16-2002, 12:10
zen_blade old wise man that cracks me up also the addition to your sig.
sorry it's simply the first time i've seen zen post with that new pic.
to the point of the post. so what if no3 is hitler, well more to the point it is not hitler it is someone with those characteristics which he happens to share with hitler. because no3 is not the full description of hitler but of course you all knew that.
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Hirosito Mori
Hirosito the Baptist of the Babbiest Babe Thread.
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
I would say Muhammad (Peace be upon him), but since evidently prophets aren't allowed I'll say the guy who was mentioned in the first post, Constantius, either him or some french dude who invented democracy. (I know greeks had it first, but Athenian democracy and modern is two quite different concepts).
MonkeyMan
11-10-2002, 02:20
an interesting debate with many arguments. I think the idea is generally for us people, if history was even slightly differnet none of us would exist and so the effect on history is all important. i.e. if i fart in the correct direction, your cousin will be born a day later than otherwise and so not be in the right place at the right time etc. On this basis i think hitler is the most probably the most important person in history, in my case - one grandparent re-married after her husband died in italy, the other set met and married because of the war. so in my terms hitler beats jesus......
Orda Khan
11-10-2002, 04:16
Is influential the point here ?
.......Orda
john locke would be the "inventor" of modern democracy(or the principles of the natural rights of man)
anyway: ARISTOTLE
Rosacrux
11-12-2002, 15:58
Looks like Aristotle has a momentum here...
OK, some links for those who are not very familiar with the man:
encyclopedia of philosophy (http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/a/aristotl.htm) has an interesting article, but one should bear in mind that they spell half the names wrong and they tend to use the Latin -us instead of the Greek -os in the names (for instance Stagyrus is Stagira, Nikomachus is Nikomachos etc.).
They have an adequate description of his work and you can see how the ethical system he created is precisely the one adopted by Christianism (or merged with the previous judaic) to create the western mindset.
If you want more raw material this is the place to get it. (http://www.knuten.liu.se/~bjoch509/philosophers/ari.html)
Oda Matsu
11-12-2002, 19:17
Genghis Khan.
He formed a movement that eventually conquered China, ruined Russia for centuries, and broke the back of Islam. The very nature of the Cold War, and the character of Marxism, takes its essense from his brutal policies regarding socials control - it can even be argued that Marxism and the Left (as a means of social control, rather than the economic theory, the latter being recognized as absurd from the day it was proposed) are simply movements dedicated to a metaphysical continuation of the Mongol conquests.
Rosacrux
11-13-2002, 08:38
Oda Matsu
I really think you should get something for that headace... must be killing you, huh? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Jesus, what are you talking about? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
ShadesWolf
11-13-2002, 14:40
ADAM
Noah (not counting adam here)
if it wasnt for him, we would all be whales
Quote[/b] (Emperor Theodoripiklos IV @ Oct. 15 2002,02:13)]Wrong mate not Adolf but Stalin.
That Bad boy had 20 milion of his people killed.
Youd be shocked to know that the russians treated the jews even worse then the nazis...they didnt even pretend thjey were gopnna deport them they just had them shot...monarchists they said
I was basing my statement on Adoplh being the main (not only) cause of WW2.
More people died in the 6 years of WW2 than in any other 10 year period in history (source: BBC's history web site)
fastspawn
11-15-2002, 03:47
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Nov. 13 2002,01:38)]Oda Matsu
I really think you should get something for that headace... must be killing you, huh? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Jesus, what are you talking about? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
I think Old Matsu was trying to say this:
Russia had no period of enlightenment, because of its large serfdom. This was in part to its extended dark ages due to The Mongols. Whereas people in Germany,france,italy and England experienced social revolution in the 1700s. Only in the late 1800s did russia's poor gain an awareness, and they chose communism as their form of revolution.
Rosacrux
11-15-2002, 10:30
Quote[/b] (fastspawn @ Nov. 14 2002,20:47)]I think Old Matsu was trying to say this:
Russia had no period of enlightenment, because of its large serfdom. This was in part to its extended dark ages due to The Mongols. Whereas people in Germany,france,italy and England experienced social revolution in the 1700s. Only in the late 1800s did russia's poor gain an awareness, and they chose communism as their form of revolution.
I don't know, my interpretation of his quote is that Marxism=mongol barbarism. Well, if that isn't the most stupid thing I've ever seen written on any forum all those years I am online, I'll be damned. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Prolly, the guy should have his neurons checked ASAP, for they are seriously damaged and therefore need immediate replacement http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Emp. Theodorikopoulos
The victims of "Stalin's vandalisms" directly or indirectly (not counting those who died in WW2 - AFAIK Stalin did not started WW2) meaning: the two purges + the Ukraine famine + the deportation of the Cossacks etc. = 2,5 - 3 million people maximum. It's all in the books, do the math yourself, don't count on stupid western propaganda to do it for you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Where the heck did you got that 20 mi. figure? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
A.Saturnus
11-15-2002, 17:03
"Blackbook Communisme"
But the most influencial person is maybe - and that is quiet difficult to explain - Pythagoras
This thought came to me when I read Russell`s "History of Western Philosophy". Pythagoras started a way of thinking that put thinking above experience, abstractness above practicality, mind above matter, reason above feelings. He influenced Aristotle and Platon. Many thinkers that were important for christanity and islam were inspired by him (maybe without knowing it). If Democrit`s way of thinking had had more influence in place of Pythagoras, the world would look much different by know.
you guys beleive EVERYTHING you read?
A.Saturnus
11-23-2002, 16:22
Quote[/b] ]you guys beleive EVERYTHING you read?
Calling on resources is a normal way to argue. That isn`t the same as believing everything. I wasn`t there myself so I need reports to rely to. They may be wrong but do you know better? And if, how?
Hello all.
Hello Saturnus. I took a music course in Uni as an elective. Before an exam, a guy put up his hand and said "Miss, does spelling count"? The Professor replied, "No, but anyone who spells Bach, B A C K is getting an automatic F".
That being said - Plato
No "n" at the end. Gah http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
I would nominate Caesar Augustus. The man shaped the Roman Empire into a powerhouse that dominated for ages, and the influence of Roman society and politics is still heavily impressed upon our society today.
Azrael
Rosacrux
11-25-2002, 12:21
Azrael
It's PlatoN, in ancient Greek. Platonas in modern. Both ways you are wrong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
And, once again, didn't anyone bother to go to the aristotelis (aristotle for you english-speaking, but the correct name is aristotelis) links I provided? Just a quick read shall reveal to you who the most influental person in the whole history was.
Platon's teachings are certainly more fascinating and definitely would be the basis of a better civilization than the one we have now, but unfortunately Aristotelis prevailed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
PFJ_bejazuz
11-25-2002, 12:50
Well Alexander the Great's career seems to be something that insecure dictators vaunt as an excuse for expansionism from Rome right through to the Napoleonic period.
The world would have been very different if he'd shown a flair for pottery or horticulture.
Papewaio
11-25-2002, 13:10
To many things have shown parallel invention to assume that any one inventor was the only person in history who would have ever invented something.
Same can be said for empire builders and destroyers. Many empires have been created and also destroyed. Wasn't just a couple of special guys who caused either series of events.
Obviously the further back in history you go the more influence a single event may appear to have or more likely with the ebb and flow of history the overall effects become blurred out as changing one event will become less sensitive over time as the ripples diminish.
So selecting the most influential person in history is a fun game and may lead us to find out more about our world heritage.
Anyhow I like Socrates he continually questioned why things where done in his society and choose to drink hemlock rather then give up his ways.
I also like Galileo who some call the father of modern science. Science has had a massive effect on the way we do things in our world. The way science differs from philosophy comes down to one degree of separation. Hypothesis, [science: test it in reality], Theory.
Newton made a huge impact on the field of physics and mathematics. His work was not only of the caliber of a great genius but the sheer volume of it he could do was amazing. Essentially modern civil engineering is all derived from his principles and the scientists and engineers who built upon them.
Then Faraday, Einstein etc all greats at what they did.
The person who has had the most effect on my personal outlook was the one whose enthusiasim for nature made me a life long convert to understanding life through science, David Attenborough.
As for the most influential person throughout history I would have to choose Lucy.
Apologies for all spelling mistakes specially the names.
Rosacrux,
Maybe you're getting mixed up with Plotinus? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Platon? News to me. Maybe it is Platon in ancient Greek, but then why was "Aristotelis" called Aristotle?
But my little Plato / Platon post was meant to be tongue in cheek. Not really meant to criticise Saturnus. It just made me think of that moment from Uni.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Azrael
I believe that the choices are restricted to those who have gained the "the Great" after the name. And my choice is of course Alexander the Great.
...or it could be Kleisthenis the creator of Democracy.
Rosacrux
11-26-2002, 10:45
Azrael
Baaad boy, mixing up his Plotinus with his Platonas... tsk, tsk, tsk...
Platon it is. And Aristotelis (or Aristoteles, if you like) also.
MonkeyMan
11-26-2002, 15:33
If i may subscribe to chaos therories here for a bit. Assuming everything i do effects everything in some way, so by waking up in the morning 2 minuates late, I eventually arrive at some traffic lights and stop infront of a bus. This buses new position in the world means it doesn't run over the next hitler who falls off his bike 5 mins later as a direct result of some wind i initiated by farting 5 years ago.
Given this the most influantial single person in the world is the one who lived the longest or made the most desisions in their life. Given this argument is Stalin the most influentual or the person who didn't run him over as a kid/ accidentally shot him/ drop him on his head at birth/ taught him to be a little git/ initiated his parents meeting?
A.Saturnus
11-26-2002, 17:21
Yes, wasn`t it Heidegger who teased Hitler as a boy? I think I read they were in the same class (could explain a lot, maybe I would start a world war too if I had to talk to Heidegger every day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ). Papewaio, you`re right to say that everyone has his influence and it`s indistingishable (did I get the spelling right, guess not) who had the most, and MonkeyMan, you`re even more right to say that even the tiniest influence could have a great effect in the long run. So the most influential person in history was the guy named Big Bang
But when I say Pythagoras was the most influential, I mean that his ideas have recognizeable shaped the way of thinking for a very long time. The Socrates (Socrates, Aristotle and Platon (or Plato or... does someone know what his real name was?)) were surely influential and more known as philosophers than Pythagoras but they were themselves strongly influenced by him. Had they followed Demokrit, who favoured empirical observation over theoratical contamplating, the science as we know it today would have developed sooner, so our technology would be much more futuristic by now (or we all would be dead, however)
BTW, I don`t think Platon`s ideas would have been better. Actually, christanity was originally inspired much more by him than by Aristotle. Many of Platon`s ideas were totalitarian, just read "the State" and Popper`s destruction of it.
Papewaio
11-27-2002, 01:43
Monkeyman that is one I nominated Lucy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Not based on the longest living, but who lived the longest ago.
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