BIG BATTLE MOVIES!!!! [Archive]

Forward Observer

08-19-2002, 00:20

Although not middle ages or feudal Japan, here are some other great movies with epic battle scenes.

1. Zulu----defense of Rorke's drift--Michael Caine was so young and pretty.

2. Zulu Dawn---About the battle that preceded Rorke's Drift. Worst defeat ever of a modern army at the hands of tribal forces. Worse than Custer.

3. Cromwell---stars Richard Harris as Cromwell. The large battle scenes depict post medieval warfare.

4. Gettysburg---not real gory, but with all of the re-enactors involved, still very authentic. Jeff Daniels is superb as Joshual Chanberlan BTW.

5. Patriot---It seems Mel Gibson once again is not very courteous to our Brit friends, but the battle scenes are well done, none the less.

6. Drums along the Mohawk---Great movie depicting French & Indian war. Stars Henry Fonda. They actually used this movie as a teaching aid when I was in high school in the 60's

7. The Buccaneer---Charleton Heston as Andy Jackson and Yul Bryner as Lafette. Great Cecil B. Demille treatment of the Battle of New Orleans.

8. Wind and the Lion---Turn of the century yarn starring Sean Connery as a Muslem chief who kidnaps American teacher. Teddy Roosevelt sends in Marines who along with other nations experincing imperialism, end up having a mini WW I in a desert village.

9. Lastly, I think that there is British movie made in the last 10 years about Robert the Bruce that is suppose to be much more authentic than the Hollywood tripe used in Braveheart, but I have never seen it.

Cheers

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

Yoshitsune

08-19-2002, 01:12

Braveheart has 99% EVERYTHING wrong. The early life of Wallace is completely invented because nothing is historically known. The Scots didn't paint themselves blue and wear tartan/plaid dresses at this time - Wallace would have been equipped in the typical armour of the period. The Scots committed as many atrocities as the English. It was a sign of the times. The 'Good-Scot, Evil-English' myth is just part of Mel Gibson's ongoing anti-England crusade. Pure propaganda. The modern concept of personal liberty superimposed on another very different time and place http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif(Just like that crap 'The Patriot' rubbish). In truth, the Wallace rebellion was still about competing power elites marshalling their subservient drones to die in violent conflict with their brothers.

As mentioned, the battle reconstructions are a joke. The Scots schiltron was an innovation that precursed the 'Horse and Pike' era of the 17th century. It was a circular, all-round pike defense formation against cavalry that was still used by the Covenanters in the English (British actually...) Civil War.

About the only thing accurate about the movie was that there was a rebellion by William Wallace, he was betrayed by the jealous Scottish nobles and he was executed by being hung, drawn and quartered at the butcher's market in East London.

RageMonsta

08-25-2002, 20:39

BraveHeart/Pearl Harbour/Patriot etc ...oh and 'that u-boat film' are just some examples of the sickening attempt by Hollywood to corrupt the truth....America has always wished for the same rich history as Europe but instead of looking towards their true history..and maybe some real epic tales of pre-white settlers days they decide to try and destroy what already exists.

I know for a fact that there are alot of Americans who know the truth but sadly they do not have the same coverage as Mel Gimpson.

RageMonsta

08-25-2002, 20:41

Maybe if BraveHeart was a 4 part series it would have been more apt! MUAHAHAHAH.

BlackWatch McKenna

08-28-2002, 23:01

ok... who just said Thermoplyae was unbelievable. Sheesh.

It's like the most famous Last Stand Battle, ever.
http://joseph_berrigan.tripod.com/ancientbabylon/id28.html
http://users.hol.gr/~barbanis/cavafy/thermopylae.html

Red Peasant

08-29-2002, 01:46

There is supposed to be a new film in development about Thermopylae based on the excellent novel 'Gates of Fire', by Stephen Pressfield.

Bruce Willis and George Clooney are mooted as the possible main stars. I think Clooney is to be involved as a producer as well, with Michael Mann as director.

Mann is also being tentatively associated with a script about the power struggle between Caesar and Pompey, with Tom Hanks as producer and possible star.

I hope both of these projects come to fruition!

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To see a world in a grain of sand,
And Heaven in a wild flower,
To hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

William Blake.

[This message has been edited by Red Peasant (edited 08-28-2002).]

dclare4

09-07-2002, 19:22

You're probably thinking of the movie "THE BRUCE" = a Scottish production that came out along with this other movie Chasing the Deer about the 45 Bonnie Prince Charlie Rebellion.

Well... I hate to say it but neither are really all that great. I mean they got the nice vistas and all but the budget they got wasn't all that hot, the scripts were just a bit too predictable, treatment was too stereotypical (tho I did like the twist in Chasing the Deer about the son and the two father figures - one a Government loyalist Scot and the other a reluctant rebel - on the whole Chasing the Deer is better scripted) and the direction was just dry,dry,dry. There was so much in Robert de Bruce's life that should have and could have made it an interesting and perhaps controversial movie - how he may or may not have helped betray Wallace, how he was just another 'contendah' to the throne, how he eventually became king and all that - Bannockburn itself with its Gettysburg style multiple engagements makes for a potentially great battle. There's also the angle that de Bruce DID owe a LOT to Edward Longshanks - his father, Balliol and Comyn were in the army of Longshanks' father at Lewes and were all captured there by Earl Simon de Montfort. They were NOT one of the old Scots nobility like Earl Macduff of Fife (same line as the dude in Macbeth) or the MacDonalds of the Isles but were one of those Anglo-Norman lords who may have taken advantage of that primae noctae type thing that Braveheart showed (for all of its innaccuracies Braveheart did capture the spirit of the history that inspired it and so I forgive its sins against history). One particularly tragic part of the Bruce story was about his father and the Earl of Gloucester (Lord Gilbert de Clare). Gloucester was something like his godfather and he cared greatly for young Bruce and perhaps even helped him in his rebellion. His son, also Gilbert de Clare, was one of the great lords that fought at Bannockburn. When the young Gloucester who had charge of the cavalry saw the Scots host he hesitated until Edward II (the gay dude) hinted at his cowardice and possibly treason. Thereupon Gloucester threw himself, his cavalry and much of Englands nobility against the schiltrons and was killed.

Anyways, its just a propagandistic, flag-waving Scots version of what it wishes was Hollywood. Interesting only for the diehard enthusiast.

Just my two cents,
Gilbert de Clare

Stephen Hummell

09-11-2002, 07:31

Braveheart- The only reason there was no bridge at stirling is because they had to build a bridge. They didn't have the time or the money to. I have not heard of Last of the Mohicans, with a large battle scene.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd like to see a movie about the first 3 crusades.

RageMonsta

09-11-2002, 18:52

Henry V

Kenneth Branner

Shakespeare

great battle

'For England' etc

no Mel Gibson

top notch.

oh and lots of dead French.

Although Hollywood are goin to change it a little....they like to think only Americans have fought in France (private ryan ahem).....so longbow replaced by Apache Helicopters.(maybe longbow missle)

Krypteia

09-11-2002, 22:42

Quote Originally posted by BlackWatch McKenna:
ok... who just said Thermoplyae was unbelievable. [/URL] [/QUOTE]

lol was abou to say the same thing

they are makeing a movie about it from a novel??? and bruce wills and clooney are going to be in it???

wtf
so were going to have wills running around in long hair and a beard ??

lol

Krypteia

09-11-2002, 22:46

Quote Originally posted by RageMonsta:
so longbow replaced by Apache Helicopters.(maybe longbow missle)[/QUOTE]

i think they are going to have them discover nuclear fission in the last 5 minutes of the movie then they are going to construct a nuke out of all the soldiers that are left , and fire it into the moon , which will be full of cheese , then it will start raining cheese in france and the french will run back so they can get to it b4 everyone else does...

NagatsukaShumi

09-12-2002, 02:44

Right here we go.....

Guys, Braveheart is an excellent film, I couldn't care less if what I'm seeing isn't perfectly accurate, nor am I going, oh my god that stick isn't accurate, this movies crap.

People recomment Kagemusha, but as far as I know Takeda Shingen was never killed and a look-alike took his place, but that doesn't stop it been a good film, Seven Samurai too, I doubrt a village hired seven samurai to help fend off bandits, and even if they did I doubt it happened exactally the same. My point? Just because a film isn't historically accurate doesn't mean it's shit, sure Braveheart is barely accurate at all, but I don't care, I enjoyed it regardless of whether a certain weapon would be used really, it's a film based on a person, and if it were all accurate I doubt people would like it that much.

Not ranting just pointing out that a film can't be regarded as shit because it's isn't perfectly or at all accurate.

And Mel Gibson hates the English? From what I've seen he's made two anti-english films, Braveheart and The Patriot, We Were Soldiers isn't anti-english, is Signs English, are the aliens english on it? And The Patriot, it's about the American Revolution, he didn't exactally direct it did he, and I doubt they'd go uh oh, the english have been percieved as evil once, we'd better make the Americans rebel against Swaziland, I'm not poking fun but come on guys, listen to yourselves.

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Power to the Sultan!
-Clan Seljuk

I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi

chilliwilli

09-12-2002, 02:51

pdoan, yes it was 1st knight. King Arthur may be a myth, but its a good medieval movie.

RageMonsta

09-12-2002, 05:44

Nagat SEVEN SAM and KAGE do not claim to be historical unlike BraveHeart and the other such nonsense movies...

with the level of education throughout the world sadly many think that movies are fact...in some ways this can be dangerous...Americans (the ignorant %) may feel that they have licence to 'right the worlds wrongs'...and sadly forget the troubles at home or maybe the masses will not see the injustice that may occure in their name.....you must see it yourself...after Monsta has seen Kung Fu movie Monsta often does a bit of 'shadow boxing' on the way out of the cinema..if you teach your youth that you go and 'kick ass' they wont mind joining up and dying in some far off land for 'old glory'...cos the movies show the US always in the right and generally winning ( even in Vietnam...Rambo went back and battered to death a regiment of VC).

KAGE is a remake of a Shakespeare play but in a Japanese setting...King Lear Monsta thinks.

SEVEN SAM was release in the US....but non of those evil Asian fellas....nooop we got cowboys but this is fine cos it didnt claim to be history...although a pale remake unless you dislike B&W.

SIGNS.....well lets say that crop circles are the topic...and crop circles originated in England a bit like your revolutionary Americans in PATRIOT.

THE SUB CODE MOVIE U****....wont even use its name......no Americans took part in this...neither did they decode the machines.. this was maybe as important as D-DAY because without Enigma code...no invasion.

Relatives of mind fought in WW1 and WW2....plus many other battles caught on film..they are insulted every time the truth us twisted..and so are the masses..shall we say 'blinded'....bit like the treatment of that 'superpower of evil' Cuba.

I understand your point about entertainment.....but maybe it would be a good idea to add something in the film or at the end....like....

'WARNING...PURE FABRICATION OF THE TRUTH TO SATISFY OUR NEED TO FEEL SUPERIOR AND TO HELP CONTINUE TO SEND YOUNG MEN (AND WOMEN) TO THEIR DEATHS FOR OUR POLITICAL GAINS AND SOCIAL FUNCTIONALISM'.

forgot where i was then!....*slips out of back door*

NagatsukaShumi

09-12-2002, 20:46

True they don't, but what I'm saying is it doesn't need to be accurate for it to be enjoyable (I just dislike having to watch Sev and Kage in Japanese, it's hard to follow it sometimes.)

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Power to the Sultan!
-Clan Seljuk

I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi

RageMonsta

09-13-2002, 02:38

You would rather have it dubbed!!!!!!

The passion and feeling is with the Japanese...

I understand your point about enjoying.when i watched Braveheart I felt it was a good production.then reading more into it..I felt it should have been noted that the film was infact fictional.

Imagine if you were taught at that 2+2 was 5...only to find out later you have been cheated.

Wishazu

09-14-2002, 08:07

back to the oiginal topic... Glory has a couple of good battle scenes

NagatsukaShumi

09-14-2002, 15:13

No, I wouldn't like it dubbed, just that the Japanese causes me to get confused at times because if I go and get a drink I can still hear it and all but I may have missed an important subtitle to read, but it's better than having it dubbed.

And yeah Braveheart should be titled Fiction based around fact in the sense that the battles happened, the guy was real etc.

------------------
Power to the Sultan!
-Clan Seljuk

I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi

de la Valette

09-18-2002, 20:26

NagatsukaShumi:

You forgot Gallipoli which is totally anti-English. So that makes three...

NagatsukaShumi

09-18-2002, 22:35

I wish I knew what Gampolli was.

------------------
Power to the Sultan!
-Clan Seljuk

I don't know Akech, can't trust Mithrandir with the newbies, he may try and create a Miny Mith.-NagatsukaShumi

candidgamera

09-19-2002, 03:00

For Medieval:

Watched "The Messenger" again last night on Bravo - good siege and melee stuff: Trebuchets & mangonels.

Anybody know if Joan was perhaps as loony and hysterical as portrayed in film - or was that just a director's license?

How bad can a Joan of Arc film be if made by a Frenchman: Luc Bessons(sp?)?

Ithaskar Fëarindel

09-19-2002, 03:34

I like The Messenger - is a good film.

But

Quote How bad can a Joan of Arc film be if made by a Frenchman: Luc Bessons(sp?)?[/QUOTE]

How bad can an American Civil War film by an American, Mel Gibson, be?

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Fëa-Quendi

candidgamera

09-19-2002, 08:43

Quote Originally posted by Ithaskar Fëarindel:
I like The Messenger - is a good film.

But

How bad can an American Civil War film by an American, Mel Gibson, be?

[/QUOTE]

IF: think you might have mistaken my meaning. Really like Luc's films. And that Messenger made by a Frenchmen maybe made it better - more French perspective - a lot of movies seem to be anglophile.

Sidebar: liked his vision of the future in 5th Element - interesting, different also. Screamers was made by at least a French Canadian - another great take on the future - helped of course by film workhorse author Philip K. Dick. And of course Lightyears.

Is Gibson american now? know he's originally an Aussie, thought he still was. BTW: he's only butchered the American Revolution so far, ACW has been safe so far: Shelby Foote has his shotgun loaded just in case http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif .

What irritates me most is when guys like Bruckheimer (Pearl Harbor) and Gibson (Patriot most particularly - uhh) use up the oxygen for a subject so somebody else has a harder time going in and doing it right.

I'd like to see a Michael Mann treatment of American Revolution on par with what he did in Last of the Mohicans - such a great film - and some good detailed treatment of sieges cira mid 18th century.

Warmaker

09-19-2002, 09:34

Damn, you had to bring up Pearl Harbor. I had to try really hard to keep from gagging in that movie. Fighter pilots all the sudden selected to be bomber pilots in the Doolitle Raid? Alec Baldwin as Doolitle? They also made the Japanese pilots look like idiots. These guys were well trained and experienced, not monkeys in cockpits. Oh, and the Japanese cruiser that was encountered by the naval task force Doolitle was in was really a deadly Japanese fishing boat. Might warn the Emperor you know...

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There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!

candidgamera

09-19-2002, 10:20

Quote Originally posted by Warmaker:
Damn, you had to bring up Pearl Harbor. I had to try really hard to keep from gagging in that movie. Fighter pilots all the sudden selected to be bomber pilots in the Doolitle Raid? Alec Baldwin as Doolitle? They also made the Japanese pilots look like idiots. These guys were well trained and experienced, not monkeys in cockpits. Oh, and the Japanese cruiser that was encountered by the naval task force Doolitle was in was really a deadly Japanese fishing boat. Might warn the Emperor you know...

[/QUOTE]

Oh goody let's pile on that one:

Japanese: looked like they dug up every Asian villian from every bad Golan-Globus/Jean Claude Van Damme martial arts film from the last 10 years. What a long way for Mako to go, eh: from "Sand Pebbles" to this crap.

Yamamoto in his "fortress of extraordinary magnitude"

Then there's those awfully strong storage shelves - like you'd buy at Walmart - storing 14" shells in the magazine.

Dates all wrong: Battle of Britain: by early 1941 the key part was over.

Key figures like Marshall, King, ect. treated like furniture.

The US war planning map that looked like an F grade Jr. High arts & crafts project.

It's too bad, but the dual cast Tora!Tora!Tora! from 30 years ago - on a different planet better than Pearl Harbor.

Emperor Theodoripiklos IV

09-19-2002, 10:55

aye i agree!
Tora tora tora rocked the boat.
Pearl Harbor was an insult to people who died overthere in my opinion.
Super Hero army aircore pilots...booohooo http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Del

09-19-2002, 11:22

Rage-san -- the only thing more pathetic than Americans trying to pretend they have a history is Europeans trying to pretend they have a present. If you are any indication, all they are capable of is vague, angrily sputtered jabs at our culture, and pointing back to times less stable and say "aHA! You see! We were killing eachother in DROVES 500 years ago!! BEAT THAT YOU STUPID YANKS!!"

Sheesh..

Del

Ithaskar Fëarindel

09-19-2002, 15:11

Candid: Not saying I know everything - I thought Mel was American - that sheds a little light on why both The Patriot and Braveheart were ... inaccurate.

Del - Change the tone of your arguments. Don't want any flaming.

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Fëa-Quendi

de la Valette

09-19-2002, 18:28

Gallipoli is a place in turkey, and was a campaign (1915-16) in the first world war.

There is a film of the same name about two runners (one of whom is Mel Gibson) who joing the Ausie army just in time to be shipped out and sent over the top at one of the battles of the campaign.

Mass slaughter of aussies 'cause of the British order to attack blah blah blah blah.

candidgamera

09-19-2002, 23:14

Quote Originally posted by Ithaskar Fëarindel:
Candid: Not saying I know everything - I thought Mel was American - that sheds a little light on why both The Patriot and Braveheart were ... inaccurate.
[/QUOTE]

Probably can get confusing, used to think Hugh Jackman was maybe Canadian - also Australian, of course Guy Pierce from LA Confidential.

Don't know why hollywood feels it knows better than the real story or his has to put in a love story where there is non - Enemy at the Gates.

I like Nelson's quote on another thread about MTW, appropriate here too: "History doesn't get in the way, it show's the way".

Gallipoli: great film.
Just read about this in Keegan's WWI - heartbreaking - in the initial assault lot of British losses too.

de la Valette

09-20-2002, 18:49

Yeah the Brits took it hard as well.

The reason that the aussie losses stick in the throat is that for the most part there was no military objective to it (i.e the attack shown in the film was timed to allow troops to be landed without opposition, troops landed, but British HQ still sent another two waves of Aussies even though it was clear no break through would be made)

Then of course we ship them to the Somme and use them as shock troops. But thats a whole other story...

Wavesword

09-20-2002, 19:24

Gallipoli was an operation that required speed, in their wisdom the British command appointed a commander with gout who barely moved his troops.
Personally I like movies where a conflict seems to be the climax of the movie but actually proves *somewhat* ephemeral against a landscape of greater values e.g. Spartacus and Raging Bull.
Oh, and I think it was Ran that was based on Lear, not Kagemusha.

dancho

09-20-2002, 20:25

Here's something to ponder:

"Ghengis Khan"-- a four hour epic starring Omar Sharif (one of history's worst casting decisions, IMHO) is not available on video tape/dvd in the U.S.

If I recall correctly, it had some pretty good battles.

[This message has been edited by dancho (edited 09-20-2002).]

RageMonsta

09-20-2002, 23:46

Del.....Monsta cares little if Hollywood butchers it's own history but I think it is wrong when they decide to adopt other peoples and replace the real heroic figures with Americans (or Aussie/Americans).

Or without pre warning the viewer change the whole story to suit the largest audiences (Pearl Harbour changed for Japan for example).

I understand artistic licence but not at the expense of fact (try a warning- BASED ON TRUE STORY, CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE FOR DRAMATIC REASONS)..it is pure proganda and consumer friendly bull.

Del relax..I did state those who are 'ignorant' in the US...or elsewhere for that matter.....oh and "Have a nice dayyyyy"

dclare4

09-21-2002, 01:32

Gallipoli was a wonderful movie http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif Not anti-British more anti-war... great war movies are usually anti-war movies.

Agree totally with the anti-Pearl Harbor posts... that was a sad, sad movie! Michael Bay (P.Harbor), Michael Apted (World is not enough) and John Woo (Windtalkers) should stick to the genres they're good at... ditto with Roland Emmerich and Dean Devlin.

Check out the ORIGINAL script of the Patriot. The ending and plot is much better than what Roland and Dean did. Colonel whatever his name was the best friend of Francis Marion wannabe Mel Gibson (the guy who played the gay Marine in American Beauty) was (in the original script) Light Horse Harry Lee. For the life of me I don't KNOW why the heck they changed it. Remember he names his newborn son after Mel Gibson's dead son in the end? Stupid dramatic effect that doesn't work because all the drama is squandered by that lousy clean ending on the Cowpens battlefield. Light Horse Harry Lee was the father of Robert Edward Lee. Ring a bell?

In the original script at the point where colonel I-wanna-be-Light-Horse-Harry-Lee yells at Mel to forget his personal vendetta because the Brits are about to break the Continental militia line he leaves off Tavington (err Tarleton??) and rallies the line. But in the freakin movie he still gets to kill the dude in the same frickin battle - so like where the heck's the drama in that. That guy was like one of the best villains I've seen portrayed in a movie - the actor did so darn well you really wanted him dead.

But there's a right way and a wrong way to kill him. Like Steven Spielburg's Jaws you don't show the frickin shark till the end. Anyways, the original script ended at Yorktown and THAT was where Tavington meets his end of course at the hands of the vengeful Mel but in a much better fashion - brings to mind the cathartic killing of the 'six fingered man' at the conclusion of Princess Bride.

The Messenger's battle scenes were sorta okay - props wise. Otherwise they were confusing and dizzying for me. otherwise the story was a terrible post-modern slander on the life of Joan of Arc. Saint or not she was not the spoiled, bratty, semi-slutty Milla Jovo-Vitch that Luc portrayed her as... people who don't have faith in anything just can't understand people who have faith I guess. The director of Gettysburg and Gods and Generals was planning to do a Joan film when Luc upstaged him. Check out his site and read what he's got to say. I agree with him a hundred percent. Its an utter vilification of a wonderful, brave young woman, perhaps deluded by her faith but never wavering, someone like an armoured, fighting mother Teresa I would think.

Yeah artistic licence is there but its also important to remain true to the history that inspired it. Otherwise its just as evil as something like Triumph of the Will or Olympia (the films glorifying Nazi Germany) or any other propaganda film you've seen.

While I can understand that people, Americans in particular would want to see themselves as heroes it does no good to distort the truth in so flagrant and unartistic a fashion. Zeroes outmaneuvered by P-40s???? PLEASE!!!! How frickin stupid is that? Claire Chennault's number one rule was do NOT get into a maneuver dogfight with a Zero. Boom and Zoom was the order of the day and with the P-40's thicker hide and more powerful armament it was effective enough to turn the AVG into the legendary 'Flying Tigers'. Yanks capturing the Enigma in a German sub then attacked by a German destroyer in the middle of the North Atlantic??? PLEAsE!!! (How that lucky skipper got past Western Approaches Command without bringing Coastal/Bomber Command not to mention the Home Fleet on him is anyone's guess!!) If you want a heroic story of Americans and the Enigma you need not go further than Admiral Daniel Gallery's dramatic capture of an intact U-boat (w/c I believe is now on display in Chicago!!!). And U-boat captains were not normally the type to machine-gun survivors in the water. Sure it happened but then again Americans crash-dived their bombers into enemy ships too!! (Midway, a stricken SBD crashed into and sunk the cruiser Mikuma - the guy was an automatic hero. Later when the desperate Japs used this same tactic against the Americans they were called crazy and fanatical!!) - and they machine gunned survivors of the Yamato mission as they floundered in the water (something they never show in American movies huh??) while the Japanese pilots that sank the Prince of Wales and Repulse not only did not shoot the survivors in the water but saluted them and the next day the bomber leader flew back and dropped a wreath on the spot where the ships died.

Enemy at the Gates... what lovestory? The one between Zaitsev and the Commissar? I'm sorry but they're more like lovers than Zaitsev and the girl... that last shot in the credits showing Joseph Fiennes and Jude Law hugging or something, well... it looks suspiciously funny. However I did like the way it handled the story though the lovestory was kinda tacked on (hey, whats a movie without a lovestory huh?)

Hopefully we see more movies with better, more honest scripts (Patriot worked fine with me except for that frickin stupid ending - those idiots handled it with the finesse of a clubbed musket!!!) and with real good actors that can carry their roles and do justice to them with a minimum of frickin flag-waving. Yeah I know, first anniv of 9/11 and all but please... other nations, other peoples have it lots worse off and many do have grievances legit or not but not any less important to them than the grievances and lives of any other human being. Not that I approve of what happened, no sir not by a long shot. But perhaps if we tried seeing it from the other side of the hill instead of condemning and launching our Tomahawks screaming 'God will know his own' we would have a better, more peaceful world to live in.

So... here's to more honest, truthful movies... because those are the greatest movies of all!

Gilbert de Clare

Ithaskar Fëarindel

09-21-2002, 03:53

Enemy at the Gates DVD has some good extras. There's an interview with the real Vasiliy Zaitsev and a French documentary about the real Stalingrad battle (subtitled of course)
which I think was filmed not long after the war - can't remember exactly when.

Enemy at the Gates;
Braveheart;
The Patriot;
U-571;
Pearl Harbour.

Enemy at the Gates was probably the most realistic. Even if not entirely.

For realism, Saving Private Ryan gets my appraise - even if the entire film is based on some un-realistic task Hanks had to perform (rescuing ONE soldier?) I dunno if that did happen - it shouldn't have - "In war men die".

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Fëa-Quendi

Warmaker

09-21-2002, 08:22

Hey, as an American who happens to like history (military side, to be more exact), I was bothered by Pearl Harbor and especially U-571.

You want a good Pearl Harbor movie? Tora! Tora! Tora! is still the best. It really tried to show things from both sides of the fence too.

You want a good submarine movie? Das Boot is damn great. If you haven't checked it, do so... asap.

Another old movie I liked since a kid, though it had some of the Hollywood glitter is The Longest Day. Unlike Saving Pvt.Ryan it does show the French and British extensively too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Plus, the scope just seemed so much larger to cover the events.

Oh, should we get into Battle of the Bulge? Even as a kid, due to my model building attempts, I sort of laughed when I saw supposedly German forces using American tanks with neat little crosses on them.

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There's no such thing as overkill, just ensured victory!

Emperor Theodoripiklos IV

09-21-2002, 08:46

I agree with you WAR
"Das BOot" was simply superb (notice the germans not getting all nationalistic when making war movies?)
ALso the Movie "Stalingrad" (german) was fantastic.
"Nothing new on the WEstfront" was also glorius.
Yep true in "battle of the B" they used US tanks...but then again it would have been a bit hard to get some Tigers and Panthers for the movie.
If you want a good warmovie watch "Bitka na Neretvi" a Yugoslav movie about the PArtisan wars during NAzi ocupation!
To go back in history "Atila" has a nice battle scene , though a bit inacruate.

ltj

09-21-2002, 11:43

the germans couldn't, and never want to, get "nationalistic" when making war films. germany will live in self-imposed shame over ww2 for quite a while to come.

but your point is valid: it is a very good, accurate (enough), non-jingoistic film that sticks to its guns.

candidgamera

09-21-2002, 23:40

Quote Originally posted by Ithaskar Fëarindel:

Enemy at the Gates was probably the most realistic. Even if not entirely.

For realism, Saving Private Ryan gets my appraise - even if the entire film is based on some un-realistic task Hanks had to perform (rescuing ONE soldier?) I dunno if that did happen - it shouldn't have - "In war men die".

[/QUOTE]

IF:
Enemy at the Gates had a realistic feel as far as the city went, but don't think the 9-5 and all by their selves was very realistic - the real Stalingrad had much more intensity and troop density.

Have said several times this forum:
A movie or a mini-series, on the level of SPR/Band of Brothers needs to be made acknowledging the simple massive nature of sacrifice the Russians made - maybe 4-5 acts: one for each year, taking a group of soldiers through the whole thing. Politics doesn't enter this at all, we are talking at the individual level, and show the late war looting and atrocities too. The West owes these people - they broke fascism.
Am thinking something like the style of "To Live" covering the history of communist China in chapters, showing it from the level of people just trying to get through life and events far beyond their control.

The Russian sacrifice for the West, in my mind is a little like that of immigrant Irish regiments in ACW who bled white, hated blacks in large numbers (economic competitors), but whose sacrifice helped to put down slavery as an institution in the US.
A lot of irony there.

SPR:
Only wrong things for me were squad's lax security, lack of German density, and P51's instead of P47's for ground attack. Other than that, for ground combat WWII, only Cross of Iron (that I've seen) comes close in portraying combat - am taking the veterans of D-Day's word about the film on this - never in combat myself. The time scale for the landing didn't bother me either or the intensity at their landing point: it was that intense at that point on Omaha - the initial couple waves from the 29th Infantry Division, 116th Regiment were basically wiped out. Didn't have a problem of the metaphoric nature of the basic plot, think if taken literal, its missing the point - the film was based on a novel. Especially liked the way it was connected to the present with the elderly Private Ryan at the cemetary.

A point also on whether a guy actually lost three brothers in Normandy: in Band of Brothers, Easy Company members knew just such a soldier who was taken out of the line for just that reason, and his brothers had died along the lines of where Private Ryan's did.

A final note: am to understand Speilberg and Hanks are making a big Bulge film currently - covering fighting around Wiltz(?) I thinking. Look forward to seeing this.

------------------
Soldier of Fortune

O Fortune, most contrary, Of changing never chary, Now small, now great, Appears your state; Just like the moon you vary.

The life your servants suffer Makes wits grow sharper, tougher, Through games of chance Which much enhance Both easy times and rougher.

Lo, penury or power May greet us any hour: Your wheel revolves And all dissolves Like ice beneath a shower.

O Lady Luck, alluring But faithless in securing The wealth we prize, From me likewise You hide, your face obscuring.

I've bet my shirt and lost, My hopes of bliss are crossed; And, lose or gain, I still remain Hard up - but hang the cost!

My pounding pulses crave One smile for me, your slave . . . Friends, keep with me And weep with me: She favors not the brave.

(From Carmina Burana: Tavern and Open Road)

candidgamera

09-21-2002, 23:50

Warmaker:
Das Boot - absolutely a classic - actually like the dubbed, non-directors cut version.
Got to be the best, in a class by itself for WWII sub films. The soundtrack is great too.

Like Stalingrad, found the extra footage in D-cut of Das Boot just dragged a lot.

Have heard great things about Winter War, but not seen it - made by Finns. A nod to Anssi.

ET IV:
Have seen that Yugoslav one you mentioned, just remember everybody seemed to have a bipod MG42 in that one - the boxes of ammo used, eh? Have it somewhere on tape I think. There's another Yugoslav one about fliers as well. Both are interesting just to watch for that they are different and set in Yugoslavia with Yugoslavs as actors.

Emperor Theodoripiklos IV

09-22-2002, 08:36

Ahh the on your are mentiong is "Partizanska Eskadrila"
A movie about the tiny newborn PArtisan airforce fighting the Mighty Luftwaffe.
very nice!
Good point about the MG42s http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

candidgamera

09-22-2002, 21:14

Quote Originally posted by Emperor Theodoripiklos IV:
Ahh the on your are mentiong is "Partizanska Eskadrila"
A movie about the tiny newborn PArtisan airforce fighting the Mighty Luftwaffe.
very nice!
Good point about the MG42s http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif[/QUOTE]

ET4:

Damn now, I'm going to have to see if I actually still have them.

Yugoslavia was where Cross of Iron was made you know.

Seems like there's a lot of ww2 stuff over their. Remember during the civil wars there seeing a very surreal thing on CNN: it was early 90's and winter with snow, film clip came and went showing a snow covered, I'd swear it was, US M-10 or M-36 Tank Destroyer roll by - like something from Battle of the Bulge.

[This message has been edited by candidgamera (edited 09-22-2002).]

Emperor Theodoripiklos IV

09-22-2002, 22:53

You know I would not be suprised if you did http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
During the Civil war the Croatian "Domobranske" regiments used russian T-34 tanks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif (with mondern guns) as mobile artilery.
Both sides after the war have made some nice Anti war movies with which show the hellish madness of the civil war.
I just cant remember their names exept "Nicija Zemlja" which won an Oscer I think , just came out but has no big battles just small skirmishes.
Anyhow if you guys want to see the war from the Croatan/serbian/bosnian perspective alike , REnt this movie "Nomans Land"

stilicho

09-23-2002, 08:12

Id like to see a cross of iron dvd with all the footage that the studios took out put back in.
I'd like to mention the movie Pork Chop Hill, about a battle before the korean war ends.
And Apocalypse Now.Seeing the Redux in a theater was great.

dclare4

09-23-2002, 14:00

Cross of Iron and most anything by that great forerunner of Tarantino, Woo and Rodriguez, Sam Peckinpah is worth watching. The Wild Bunch, Cross of Iron,

Das Boot, Stalingrad and All Quiet on the Western Front are all incredible movies. I totally agree with the chap here who said something about non-jingoistic, truthful films. The nationalism can come out but please not the jingoism. War is terrible enough as it is without clouding the issues with bigotry.

I think I saw that Partisan Airforce thing when I was very, very young. They called it 'the battle of the Eagles' over here. Is that the one where they start out with biplanes and later graduate to Yaks or something? The first shot is a biplane taking on a 109 and the last one is the three heroes are walking down a runway with 'modern' fighters lined up on both sides?

Most Aussie war movies are wonderful. Lighthorsemen, Breaker Morant, Gallipoli.

Longest Day I think tried to do too much and there were many innaccuracies that Zanuck perpetuated for the sake of high drama. Still its a must see. Though nothing ever to my mind beats that first 30 minutes of Saving Private Ryan.

Gilbert de Clare

Rosacrux

09-23-2002, 17:03

Best battle scenes? Oh, I think both Kurosava films - Ran and especially Kagemusha - are brilliant. There was this film about a battle in India, with Hindus-led-by-hindus on theone side and hindus-le-by-brits on the other side, which had a quite good and rather realistic battle scene. Also some older Eizenstein films have some marvelous 50.000-men battle scenes.

As for films about war... well,I'd have to go with dclare4:
Cross of Iron, Das Boot, Stalingrad, All Quiet on the Western Front. Magnificent, brilliant, unique, original, intelligent films all of them.

The thin red line, Johny got his gun, apocalypse now, Gallipoli, Full Metal Jacket (even though the latter is not much of anti-war but anti-totalitarian and... uh, too big of a subject to discuss here) would be my next choices.

candidgamera

09-23-2002, 22:53

Quote Originally posted by dclare4:

I think I saw that Partisan Airforce thing when I was very, very young. They called it 'the battle of the Eagles' over here. Is that the one where they start out with biplanes and later graduate to Yaks or something? The first shot is a biplane taking on a 109 and the last one is the three heroes are walking down a runway with 'modern' fighters lined up on both sides?

Most Aussie war movies are wonderful. Lighthorsemen, Breaker Morant, Gallipoli.

[/QUOTE]

battle of eagles - that's the one I've got - thanks for the clarification.

Those Aussie ones are great:
cavalry charge portrayal in Lighthorsemen seemed very realistic, and from other reading historically accurate.

Breaker Morant: one of my favorite all-time movies in any category. great lines in that one: "we caught them and we shot them using rule .303!", "slice off a cut loaf won't be missed" examples.

What's very ironic is that Bryon Brown plays an Australian attorney trying a case in exact role reversal from BM in "Prisoners of the Sun" - the Christian Japanese officer prisoner from Nagasaki gets executed for following orders, and the general who ordered it goes free because he's important to post war Japan - Americans muscled in on the trial.

Dealt with executions of Allied fliers on Ambon - am to understand it was historically based.

dclare4

09-25-2002, 10:35

Hey thats one I should check out - Prisoners of the Sun. Is it recent? I wouldn't think so...

Yup, can't beat that line...

"QUITE LIKE THIS? No sir it wasn't quite like this! No sir, it wasn't quite so handsome... And as for rules, we didn't carry milit'ry manuals about, we were out on the veldt fighting the Boer, the way he fought us! I'll tell you what rule we applied, SIR! We applied rule 303. We caught them, and we shot them under rule 3-0-3!"

BANG!!

Wonderful stuff. Bruce Beresford directed that one... he did that other one about those ladies forming a choir in a Jap prison camp too I think, Paradise Road? One of Cate Blanchett's breakout movies if I'm not mistaken.

About the late great Akira K... no matter how many special effects you put into a movie you just CANNOT BEAT the heartbeat that pulsates in every one of his films. And Toshiro Mifune... incredible, legendary, unspeakably wonderful. Ditto for the two other guys who became his stars - the guy who played the leader, Kambei, in Seven Samurai was also a major star of his - he was the hero in this film, Ikiru (to Live) w/c though not a war film, is no less powerful and incredibly uplifting. See it if ever you feel like jumping out a window! Same thing with the hero of Kagemusha and Ran - forgot his name, he was Shingen Takeda and the double in the first one and Hidetora the Great Lord in the second one. He played the young samurai with the pistol vs Toshiro Mifune in Yojimbo (the bodyguard).

One simple way to show how great A.K's movies are is to look at the remakes that Hollywood has done - Yojimbo became Fist full of Dollars (Clint Eastwood) and later was the basis for Last Man Standing (Bruce Willis). Rashomon's structure can be found in Courage Under Fire (Meg Ryan, Denzel Washington), Seven Samurai became of course, Magnificent Seven (come to Marlboro country) and shades of the townspeople hiring lone guns can be seen in the 1993 Academy Award winner Unforgiven (Clint changes it to a whorehouse looking for protectors).

Gilbert de Clare

candidgamera

09-26-2002, 07:05

Quote Originally posted by dclare4:
Hey thats one I should check out - Prisoners of the Sun. Is it recent? I wouldn't think so...

Yup, can't beat that line...

"QUITE LIKE THIS? No sir it wasn't quite like this! No sir, it wasn't quite so handsome... And as for rules, we didn't carry milit'ry manuals about, we were out on the veldt fighting the Boer, the way he fought us! I'll tell you what rule we applied, SIR! We applied rule 303. We caught them, and we shot them under rule 3-0-3!"

BANG!!

Wonderful stuff. Bruce Beresford directed that one... he did that other one about those ladies forming a choir in a Jap prison camp too I think, Paradise Road? One of Cate Blanchett's breakout movies if I'm not mistaken.

Gilbert de Clare

[/QUOTE]

Prisoners of the Sun, don't know if this will help or not, its a 1990 film - George Taekai (Sulu from Star Trek) plays the general that gets off: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6302194334/qid%3D1033002069/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-4029052-1536155

Breaker Morant: really liked the guy playing the Breaker. His poems in the film were great, the one about "crossing the stream to the great beyond" and of course the final one as they are executed. Another line too: "Every life ends in a dreadful execution George" "Prisoners" BTW shows the execution as well.

I digress but: ever see the Australian remake of On The Beach? Beautifully made film, but one of the saddest films I've ever seen in my life. Sad because of the brilliant cinematography contrasts so much with the tragedy of what's coming: you get a real personal sense of what they are all going to lose. Three cast members from Morant in that one: Major Boulton, the Court Martial chair, and Bryon Brown. Also had the guy that played the Colonel in Gallipoli that liked Opera - been in every major Aussie film, I've ever seen. This is way better than the original.

Paradise Road: didn't realize Cate Blanchett in it - one of my favorite actresses - she should have gotten the A. award for Elizabeth.

Xer0

09-28-2002, 15:40

Can someone tell me whats the message is about? The story you know.

Aucassin

09-28-2002, 15:54

Quote Originally posted by dclare4:
...Ditto for the two other guys who became his stars - the guy who played the leader, Kambei, in Seven Samurai was also a major star of his - he was the hero in this film, Ikiru (to Live) w/c though not a war film, is no less powerful and incredibly uplifting. See it if ever you feel like jumping out a window! Same thing with the hero of Kagemusha and Ran - forgot his name, he was Shingen Takeda and the double in the first one and Hidetora the Great Lord in the second one. He played the young samurai with the pistol vs Toshiro Mifune in Yojimbo (the bodyguard...[/QUOTE]

The actors you're referring to are Takashi Shimura and Tatsuya Nakadai, respectively.
I never noticed that Tasuya Nakadai was in Yojimbo until a few weeks when I watched it again. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

candidgamera

09-28-2002, 19:22

Quote Originally posted by Xer0:
Can someone tell me whats the message is about? The story you know.[/QUOTE]

Vilken?

Xer0

09-28-2002, 20:39

Its a movie called the message

Forward Observer

09-29-2002, 03:21

Does anyone know the name of a movie that I think takes place during the hundred years war? I think that it may have starred Rutger Hauer as the leader of a small band of mercenaries who take over a castle. I can vaguely remember him carrying one of those huge two handed swords.

They evemtually get seiged by a relative of the castle occupants. There weren't a lot of big battle scenes, but I do remember the costumes and armor looking correct. There was some pretty gory stuff that involved the black plague. First time I remember seeing a deseased animal flung over the castle walls by a catapult.

I also seem to remember a fairly well known actress (now) getting naked in a castle hot tub with Rutger.

Guess I can do a Google search and find it.

Cheers

------------------
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

Spino

09-29-2002, 08:08

"Das Boot" is the greatest war movie of all time. Excellent in every way and without a shred of political correctness.

"Apocalypse Now: Redux"?

RANT ON

"Apocalypse Now: Redux" is a crime against the art of filmmaking. Despite his already impressive wealth Coppola has become a bona fide whore to the almighty dollar. Everyone seems to forget that the original release of AN was a 'director's cut' because Coppola had complete control over the film from start to finish. Rent the documentary "Hearts of Darkness; the Making of Apocalypse Now" and you will actually see Coppola utter a few critical words and storm off the set in the middle of filming the dinner scene in the French plantation. He knew plantation scenes didn't work within the context of the film so he cut them out before they finished shooting them! Why bring back those godawful scenes in a re-release version? In that same documentary you will also see how close that movie came to being one of the greatest train wrecks in the history of filmmaking; at many points the production teetered on the edge of disaster.

You see after astounding box office sucesses of Godfather I & II Coppola became the golden boy of Hollywood. When it came time to make Apocalypse Now he was given a vast budget and complete control over the making of the film. Coppola was never handcuffed or 'oppressed' by the suits over in Hollyweird to make a populist piece of drivel. They trusted him to make another Godfatheresque success. The only pressure the suits applied to Coppola was to stick to a sensible shooting schedule. For reasons partially beyond Coppola's control AN took nearly two years to make. The suits were justfied in riding his case when the shooting schedule kept getting longer and longer and Coppola kept asking for more and more money.

Prior to the Redux release AN was in my all time top 5, now it's not even in the top 20 anymore. Those 30 minutes of extra scenes (especially the ones on the French plantation) are positively horrendous and were better off left on the cutting room floor.

stilicho

09-29-2002, 10:15

forward observer: flesh and blood. saw it in french when i was around ten for the first and only time. when i think of late medieval times i always think of that movie.

i think apocalypse now was a great movie. either version, although i find redux more similar to catch-22 in tone. another movie i like.

theforce

09-29-2002, 18:16

How about "We were soldiers"?
The movie was quite good and realistic.

------------------
I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
http://www.dedicatedgaming.com/~angelsofdarkness

Emperor Theodoripiklos IV

09-29-2002, 20:47

Uhm no We where Soldiers was not good.
It was just like all other kliche Vietnam movies.
God ,country ,Family etc
Now a real good war movie is "Nothing new on the Westfront" (Im westen nichts neues)
I like both new and old versions.
I just went to see "Four feathers" and they did have a historicly nearly acurate battle scene where the Brits form a square when faced with the hords of Sudan...and even more historicly acurate , they get their backlips whooped http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

candidgamera

09-29-2002, 21:09

Quote Originally posted by Xer0:
Its a movie called the message[/QUOTE]

If you are referring to "The Messenger" deals with life of Joan of Arc.

Curious as to how people think of "The Name of the Rose"? Certainly topical to medieval.

Thought it really showed how squalid the peasants lived and touched on some "big picture" ideas in general. Can't say I know it was all accurate - seemed well done though.

candidgamera

09-29-2002, 21:13

Quote Originally posted by Emperor Theodoripiklos IV:
I just went to see "Four feathers" and they did have a historicly nearly acurate battle scene where the Brits form a square when faced with the hords of Sudan...and even more historicly acurate , they get their backlips whooped http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif[/QUOTE]

Just saw this too, and have seen the original 1938(?) one as well - significant changes to the story. Really liked the way Wes Bentley acted his role - seemed very period, just his manner and speaking. Kate Hudson looked a lot like the 1938 Ethne too.

Mixed feelings about the film - my immediate question after the battle scene was how any survived getting overun like that at all - that looked like the end of all them.

Xer0

09-29-2002, 21:20

No I ment this movie: http://www.discshop.se/LIVE/shop/ds_produkt.php?DISCSHOPID=b7c017690a7dcc523f87b9abec418999&ref=&lang=&id=31079&

The best movie is Unknown soldier I think its about finnish soldiers during ww2 that are fighting against russians.

candidgamera

09-29-2002, 23:11

Sorry about that, know sometimes the titles get changed between languages.

The Russo-Finish one you mean this:
http://www.warshows.com/Detail.bok?searchpath=41c04b46f096b41b29ec&keyword=Winter+War&keywordoption=AND&start=1&total=7&no=7739

Have heard real good things about that one.

Of course there's always Alexander Nevsky. Ironic, first time I saw this was when living in your country x. about 20 years ago, living in Visby the old Hanseatic port city - it was in Russian with Swedish subtitles.

[This message has been edited by candidgamera (edited 09-29-2002).]

Xer0

09-30-2002, 01:40

But you live in USA now right?

And that is not the movie I ment. The one I am talking about is a old black-and white movie called Unknow soldier.

candidgamera

09-30-2002, 06:45

Quote Originally posted by Xer0:
But you live in USA now right?

And that is not the movie I ment. The one I am talking about is a old black-and white movie called Unknow soldier. [/QUOTE]

Yes, American, lived there as exchange student for a year, 79-80: Folkomrostningen om Karnkraft, Bengt Ost om TV2, They were just starting to talk about the JAS-39 Grifen: Jakt Attack och Spaning.

Not familiar with the b&w your talking about.

Was only in Goteborg once while there.

Boromir0101

10-01-2002, 06:24

We were Soldiers could be considered anti-French
Vietnam should have been France's fight, why was the U.S involved, some bs about "stopping communism

also "Hamburger Hill"
very gory but true to life in ways but most veterans (like my father) cant watch it

------------------
"Long has my father the steward of gondor kept the forces of mordor at bay, by the blood of our people are your lands kept safe" Boromir

dclare4

10-02-2002, 11:04

Its interesting to see how Tatsuda Nakadai is in both films, as the young Westernized samurai in Yojimbo and later as the powerful lord in Ran - and of course as the double of himself in Kagemusha.

One of the movies you should check out if you go for WW2 history and such is Roger Spottiswoode's HIROSHIMA. Its a docu-dramatization of the events leading up to the A-bomb. Lots of archival footage but more importantly stellar performances by a cast that uncannily captures the spirit of the characters that they portray - Truman, Churchill, Hirohito, Anami, Szilard, Oppenheimer, etc. Spottiswoode directed the Bond flick Tommorow Never Dies w/c was way better than Apted's The World Is Not Enough in my book - tons better! For a flick its really quite watchable. Anyways, its a great and moving picture - really makes you sad to see how humanity moves to the brink of armageddon.

Another movie - one of the most powerful, depressing ones of all time is the Japanese animated movie Tombstone for Fireflies. Its about a brother and a sister who are orphaned in the closing days of WW2. Bring two boxes of tissues (if you're the weepy type).

Hmmm... as for medieval type movies - anyone remember the movie that 'introduced' Michelle Pfeffer to the world, Ladyhawke? It starred Rutger Hauer and Matthew Broderick against the arch-evil Bishop of Aquilla. It had the weirdest techno soundtrack - I think Alan Parsons did the music. But the story's still cool - Charmed ripped off the plotline in an episode I saw recently - and its got John Wood doing these really cool lines as the satanic bishop like, "I believe in miracles Marquess... it's part of my job."

Think I'll watch it again today.

Cheerio,
Gilbert de Clare

dclare4

10-02-2002, 11:08

At the very least though... I mean Pearl Harbor isn't great at all and for whatever its worth, SPRyan does give you a feel for the war. The big problem with Tora!Tora!Tora! and Longest Day is that their storyline was too confusing for the average viewer to sit through in a few hours - I think. Anyways, thats the feedback I got when I asked around about it. Personally I do prefer T!T!T! to PH though I wish they had the former had the camera work and SFX of the latter!!

Gilbert de Clare

Cyricist

10-04-2002, 06:19

Tora! Tora! Tora! was messed up by 20th century fox, that is what caused the confusion. It was not even Kurosawa's project anymore when it was released. I don't usually count this movie when thinking of Kurosawa as a director, since he simply didn't make it. Some American piece of @#&$%SH*T did.

I know it's a pretty modern movie, but since Saving Private Ryan was mentioned..

How about Platoon? In my opinion it's one of the better Vietnam war movies. It scared the bejesus out of me the first time I saw the storming of the firebase and the NVA opened up with machineguns.. (I still turn the sound down.. even now that I'm used to SPR, which is LOUD by any standard.. Subwoofer makes the house shake with every bang http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)
The only one that could rival Platoon in a strange and uncoherent way would be Full Metal Jacket. But then again, the first doesn't really compare to the latter.

dclare4

10-04-2002, 09:05

His name was Larry Forrester (the American piece of ...) and he wrote among other things battle of the April storm about the battle between HMS Glowworm and DKM Hipper. I was modding the game DESTROYER COMMAND for a while and I got to talking with one of the relatives of the Glowworm survivors. A real gent. He sent me stories of all the extant survivors of that gallant ship and also let me in on a bit of Mr.Forrester's history. Apparently he borrowed some things from one of the survivors and was intending to make a movie about Glowworm but when the deal fell through he never returned the things too the poor trusting old man. He went on to make Tora!Tora!Tora! after I believe. Now how's that for a piece of....

Weird... Kurosawa could have made it so much better in that he would have been honest I believe (all his movies are very powerful anti-war) and presented both sides with intelligence and feeling. Just look at what he did with RAN with its grand cast of characters, its sweeping vistas and yet its heartfelt attention to detail.

BTW an interesting thing... I noticed when perusing the pages of the Imperial Japanese Navy site www.combinedfleet.com (http://www.combinedfleet.com) that one of the Japanese destroyer commanders of WW2 was a guy named Toshio Mifune... any relation to the great actor? Was HE the great actor?

I wonder...
Gilbert de Clare

P.S.
Platoon rocks, hands down. Full Metal Jacket's crazy but then again most Kubrick films are. I love it.

P.P.S.
Anyone got to read the script for Kubrick's never-done most cherished project, Napoleon? Its really sad that SK died just when the technology for making his movie without the cast of thousands of extras came about (with Braveheart etc and CGI)

Forward Observer

10-05-2002, 06:02

Quote Originally posted by dclare4:
His name was Larry Forrester (the American piece of ...) and he wrote among other things battle of the April storm about the battle between HMS Glowworm and DKM Hipper. I was modding the game DESTROYER COMMAND for a while and I got to talking with one of the relatives of the Glowworm survivors. A real gent. He sent me stories of all the extant survivors of that gallant ship and also let me in on a bit of Mr.Forrester's history. Apparently he borrowed some things from one of the survivors and was intending to make a movie about Glowworm but when the deal fell through he never returned the things too the poor trusting old man. He went on to make Tora!Tora!Tora! after I believe. Now how's that for a piece of....

Weird... Kurosawa could have made it so much better in that he would have been honest----[/QUOTE]

Actually, Larry Forrester was one of three screen writers for T!T!T! and not a director

The other two writers were Hidio Oguni and yuzo Kikushima.

This film was to be a cooperative effort between Fox studios and Kurosawa Productions. For many reasons the Japanese production did not go well under Kurosawa, so he and Fox parted company. They claim that he repeatedly missed production dates, hired good friends just to get them on the payroll, and failed to produce one bit of usable footage. Granted, he was a great director, but this project was just not suited to his creative cup of tea.

In the end the lead director for the American sequences was Richard Fleischer, while the Japanese sequences were directed by Tosho Masuda and Kinji Fukasaku. The latter two directors did quite a good job. Fleicher went on to direct such schlock films as Fantastic Voyage and Amityville 3D.

Usually these big cooperative ventures in filmmaking like Tora3 or The Longest Day lack film continuity for the obvious reason that they ARE complicated, huge international joint projects. It's a wonder that they get the these movies put together in the first place. Still, both movies are pretty entertaining, and if nothing more, fairly good examples of quite accurate historical story telling.

Cheers

P.S. I own tapes of both movies, and will evenually get the DVD's in letter box.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

[This message has been edited by Forward Observer (edited 10-05-2002).]

Forward Observer

10-05-2002, 09:36

Here is an additional interesting bit of trivia about the movie Tora, Tora, Tora.

Jason Robards, who plays the Army's General Short in the movie, served in the US Navy during WW II, and was eventually awarded the Navy Cross.

The most interesting part is that he was acually serving at Pearl Harbor when the real attack took place.

Cheers

------------------
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

candidgamera

10-06-2002, 00:02

FO:

Interesting about Jason Robards. Curious where he got his Navy Cross?

The portrayal of the Japanese is lot of why I continue to like TTT. The big staffs you see are part of why they had huge tall bridges on their battleships I've been told - like a latter day STW Hatamoto or retinue.

TTT also seems to avoid a lot of the pitfalls of war movies made about that time - 70's versions of what makes PH irritating - current pop culture sensibilities creeping into a historical film. I'm thinking of Midway and Battle of the Bulge in particular.

Zulu's good at avoiding that too I think - one of my all time favorites.

"Colour Sergeant Bourne!"

Forward Observer

10-06-2002, 03:13

Candidgamera:

The History channel did one of those history verus Hollywood shows about Tora, Tora, Tora around the same time that the new Pearl Harbor movie came out. They had one show on the making of T,T,T, and this is where I first heard about Kurosawa's part in the movie. Later I read a trivia fact at the Fox movie site about Robards.

I did a search on Robards, who was actually a Jr. (his father was an actor too), and found a short biography which mentioned his service, the Navy Cross, and the fact that he was at Pearl. It did not go into any more detail than that, although it implied that the award and his presence at Pearl were not connected.

I wasn't even aware that he died of cancer in 2000. He was 78 years old if I remember correctly. This would have made him about 19 years old at the time of Pearl.

Jeeze, I can remember all of this useless stuff, and just day before yesterday I ran out of gas on the way to work because I forgot to put gas in my truck.

Then yesterday, I got to work and realized that I had worn one Black shoe and one Brown shoe. (Both true)

Of course I told everybody that I had another pair just like them at home. LOL

Cheers

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

[This message has been edited by Forward Observer (edited 10-06-2002).]

candidgamera

10-06-2002, 05:23

I was aware he'd died of cancer. What's poignant is that one of his last roles was to play someone dying of cancer in "Magnolia" trying to reconcile with his son - probably dying for real as he played the role. Pretty dark film all around.

Always liked him in the movies he played in, especially playing the grandad.

The other: sounds like some dumb stuff I do all the time http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif .

dclare4

10-06-2002, 13:55

Whats interesting about Magnolia is how it actually manages to create a cohesive, very interwoven whole out of the seemingly disconnected threads. Guess its not really possible in a war movie but I think Bridge Too Far came pretty close to doing that.

Gilbert de Clare

stilicho

10-06-2002, 15:14

really didnt expect...well you know.the biblical event.

candidgamera

10-06-2002, 21:17

Quote Originally posted by dclare4:
Whats interesting about Magnolia is how it actually manages to create a cohesive, very interwoven whole out of the seemingly disconnected threads. Guess its not really possible in a war movie but I think Bridge Too Far came pretty close to doing that.

Gilbert de Clare[/QUOTE]

Well we're making peace out of war and transmuting, but:

I put Magnolia in a string of movies in the last say, since 1992, when I say the "first one in class": Grand Canyon.

In same class:
Magnolia, American Beauty, and show 6 Feet Under, LA Story (a lighter sunnier one than rest).

They all seem to show people adrift and in moral struggle in Southern California.

Magnolia seems to be the darkest one.

dclare4

10-16-2002, 10:03

Hey everyone...

Are we all bored of talking about movies already? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Well this was certainly an interesting discussion and I'm grateful to have chatted with all of you.

Happy watching!
Gilbert de Clare

candidgamera

10-16-2002, 22:44

Quote Originally posted by dclare4:
Hey everyone...

Are we all bored of talking about movies already? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Well this was certainly an interesting discussion and I'm grateful to have chatted with all of you.

Happy watching!
Gilbert de Clare[/QUOTE]

Never tire of talking about movies.

Still wondering what general opinion is on "Name of the Rose".

Forward Observer

10-17-2002, 05:45

I thoroughly enjoyed the movie version of "The Name of the Rose".
Of course I usually enjoy any "costumed, historical setting" type movie, and usually anything with Sean Connery in it.

I thought that it was very entertaining concept to make a murder mystery that revolves around a medieval "Sherlock Holmes". While I enjoyed the movie, most people that I talked did not.

Since I had seen the movie, and told my wife that I liked it, she bought me Umberto Eco's 2nd novel, which is called "Foucault's Pendulum", for Christmas one year. It was a big mistake. I read or tried to read it, but it was a real chore

Eco is obviously a brilliant academian---a bit to brilliant for my tastes. At over 600 pages, and full of rambling historical references, plots, sub-plots, and dialogue that was almost impossible to follow, the book became quite a challenge just to finish. Even then it just sort of fizzled out with no real ending. I can't imagine being the guy who had to translate this monster from its original Italian text to English.

The story or plot, if you can even use that term, is about secret societies starting with the Knights Templar, and revolves around some sort of secret plot to eventually rule the modern world. It read like an Dennis Miller monologue, going off on wild tangents full of esoteric and arcane references---only not funny. (if that makes any sense.)

A book review that I have read of "The Name of the Rose", which became a best seller, said that it is also a hard read, even having large segments of untranslated latin. The reviewer went on to say that even though it was a best seller, he doubted that many people had actually read it.

Most of the time the book is much better than the movie, but I think that the reverse may be true in this case.

Anyhow, I liked the movie. Afraid to even attempt the book.

Cheers

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

[This message has been edited by Forward Observer (edited 10-17-2002).]

dclare4

10-17-2002, 13:08

Try Umberto Eco's "Swimming with Salmon" or something like that - its a very humorous series of anecdotes thats also very intelligent. Light read apparently compared to Foucault's Pendulum.

Name of the Rose was pretty cool. Ditto with costume movies and Sean Connery though I personally thought that First Knight wasn't... well just was to PC, too modern, not my cup of tea at all and the ending was corny. Name of the Rose was interesting and that maze thing was freaky. Liked the whole whoodunit mystery vs faith and inquisition plot.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Gilbert de Clare

candidgamera

10-17-2002, 22:49

FO:
Interesting. I liked the NOTR a lot. It seemed to touch on quite a lot: Inquisition, Heretics, the squalor of the peasants, and cold - felt cold just watching it. Thought it presented interesting perspective on the mindset of the time - about control. Was hoping someone would weigh in on how on target it was portraying the time.

DeClare4:
First Knight was fine on the actors - - except Geer - can't take him seriously as Lancelot, but not on script. Agree that it was sort of a "designer" version of medieval or like a "The Patriot" Hollywood take on the same. Like they shopped for costumes along Rodeo Drive . . . u r kind of looking for the Cadillac to showup like its a commercial. Pretty empty.

I really like Excalibur, even though its not very good to Dark Ages - all that 15-16th Century plate. But the cast and the acting are great: Liam Neeson, Patrick Stewart, Gabriel Byrne, ect. Don't think there was a soundtrack either, but if there were it would be one of my all time favorites - some of the best matching of music to movie scenes ever:
O Fortuna - my sig.
Wagner - Parsifal, Siegfried's Funeral March.

Watching it always felt like watching a play too.

------------------
Soldier of Fortune

O Fortune, most contrary, Of changing never chary, Now small, now great, Appears your state; Just like the moon you vary.

The life your servants suffer Makes wits grow sharper, tougher, Through games of chance Which much enhance Both easy times and rougher.

Lo, penury or power May greet us any hour: Your wheel revolves And all dissolves Like ice beneath a shower.

O Lady Luck, alluring But faithless in securing The wealth we prize, From me likewise You hide, your face obscuring.

I've bet my shirt and lost, My hopes of bliss are crossed; And, lose or gain, I still remain Hard up - but hang the cost!

My pounding pulses crave One smile for me, your slave . . . Friends, keep with me And weep with me: She favors not the brave.

(From Carmina Burana: Tavern and Open Road)

dclare4

10-20-2002, 16:56

I agree with you dude. The actors were okay, I mean Connery is Connery, Julia Ormonde is ravishing and the chap from chariots of Fire was appropriate enough. Geer was too pop and so was the script. Sigh... Excalibur's always a treat to watch and Carminda Burana's one of my faves. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

What did you think of Ladyhawke? A bit hokey and the soundtrack was kinda weird but not unpleasant. Still its a pretty good story and John Wood's Bishop of Aquilla's one of the best medieval villains on film - ranks right up there with the Six Fingered Man in Princess Bride. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Gilbert de Clare

Forward Observer

10-21-2002, 00:06

When I think medieval villains, what immediately come to mind is Basil Rathbone as Guy DeGisborne in the old "Adventures of Robin Hood" movie that starred Errol Flynn.

Alan Rickman wasn't to bad either as the campy Sheriff of Nottingham in Costner version, although I can't stand Costner himself.

Speaking of costumed historical movies and Sean Connery, have any of you seen the movie "The Wind and the Lion"?
I mentioned it back at the first of this thread, which was really supposed to be about big battle scenes. It is one of my favorite semi-historical action adventure movies.

Sean Connery is outstanding at the Barbary chieftain "Rasuouli" and Brian Keith is spot on as Teddy Roosevelt.

The turn of the century costumes, Moroccan scenery, and the battle action sequences are all outstanding. If you haven't seen it, go rent it. You will be thoroughly entertained.

P.S. "The Princess Bride" is one of my favorites too.

Negative

10-21-2002, 04:08

I had to skim through this thread to get the gist of the conversation. I don't think anyone mentioned it, but I really enjoyed a movie called When Trumpets Fade. It's WW2. It had some pretty good battle scenes.

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It's not the size of the army that matters. It's how you use it.

dclare4

10-21-2002, 16:23

Yeah I've seen that one. Its pretty good too. Nice way the start and end wrap up. Perhaps the only 'weird' thing is how quickly he gets promoted but it sure drives home the point about how bloody the Hurtigen Forest battles were. The WW2 movies nowadays are really good. Its nice to see that (most of them) have really set standards for accuracy.

Have you seen the movie 'The Trench'? Its a British film about a company of young New Army recruits in the last few hours leading up to the first day of the Somme. Really interesting to watch though some of the characters are a bit stereotypical, I guess its because those were really the types of men who lived at the time - the gentleman officer, the tough sergeant, the raw recruits, etc. The sergeant is played by Daniel Craig who you may remember for his most recent role as the son of Paul Newman in Road to Perdition.

Gilbert de Clare

Negative

10-21-2002, 20:44

I haven't seen The Trench, but I've heard a little about it before. I need to see it. Unfortunatly I have a hard time watching war movies since my wife has a hard time watching them. I got her to see We Were Soldiers and she cried through most of the movie. I guess I'll have to start watching them alone.

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It's not the size of the army that matters. It's how you use it.

Symbiosis_Bob

10-22-2002, 06:57

AKIRA KURASAWA!

Swoosh So

10-22-2002, 18:52

Hmm although ran was a good movie the battle scences were pretty boring, Got to like tango tho http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Yagyu Jubei

10-24-2002, 02:57

I thought that "when trumpets fade" was a WWI movie....mustard gas and all.....great movie...I couldn't remember the name of it...ends just like it starts....

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Watashiwa Yagyu Jubei desu! Ganbate!

G0THIC-Lobster

10-31-2002, 18:05

i dunno but gradiator,robin hood, mummy, joan of arc and brave heart have some quite big battles in it. If your lookin for some unrealistic 1 i go for star ship troopers, because you see a masses of alien beasties attacking a huge squad of marines and lotr...it kind of have 1 in the beganning.

Azrael

11-13-2002, 22:32

Hey Guys,

O.K. This is a Book. Don't Freak out:

The Iliad, by Homer, and I recommend the Fitzgerald translation. 10th year of the Seige of Troy by the Greeks (Achaeans). Battles Galore. I still get moved to tears by that book.

RAN The battle scenes from STW time Japan are absolutely mesmerising.

Henry V, Kenneth Brannaugh version: The battle of Agincourt is amazing (and fairly historically accurate - note I said fairly, so you history super buffs who calculate their units as mathematical equations keep a lid on it).

Good shout you guys who mentioned Gallipolli. Class Film.

Braveheart should go without saying (though history buffs will note that William Wallace was slightly taller than Mel)

Saving Private Ryan: If you haven't seen it, go and see it. The battle of Normandy will give you half an idea of what those boys did for you over there.

BBC has screened and recently re-screened Band Of Brothers, a 10 part HBO special about the 101st Airborne, some of the episodes being absolutely brilliant, and made all the more chilling in it's realism by a) the guy who wrote the book it's based on was there, b) the fact that some of the actual men on whom the book writes about are there at the beginning of each episode, commenting on what times were like.

Think I've managed to offer one or two newbies there.

Azrael