Fiercest Barbarians

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Which "Barbarian" faction has the bravest, steadiest, strongest and scariest troops of all? By this I mean, which faction has a roster selection which allows the fielding of the best elites together with large numbers of the best and most cost effective line troops?

Here's how they rank in my book:

1. Sweboz - Ceteris Paribus, the Sweboz roster might be limited in diversity, but it allows by far a decent range of very brave, steady and disciplined troops. Formations are the tightest of all the barbarians, and defensive focus is certainly not neglected - the only problem is a lack of good armour for all top tiers, but they make the difference with being cheap. "Dugundiz" are one of the best and most cost effective Spearmen in the game. Their swordsmen, too, while being slightly more expensive than Celtic Swordsmen and less numerous, are man for man superior and better line troops, while all troops have one of the highest morale ratings in the game

On "Strength" the Sweboz have a decent range of good assault troops, while having perhaps the best "scary" range of troops in the game. Having Wargozez walking around behind the enemy line will assuredly deal a devastating blow to enemy morale. That said the Sweboz lack a good equivalent to the "Gaesatae".

Overall though, Sweboz warriors must be kept inside dense woods, where they get attack bonuses and are better protected from missiles, to which they are extremely vulnerable.

(1 to 5 stars)

Bravery - *****
Steadiness - *****
Strength - ***
Scariness - ****

2. Getai - The troops have perhaps the highest morale in the game. They also get the best assault and skirmisher roster in the game, while their long range missiles are varied and second to no other Western enemy, though they lack the steadiness of the Sweboz on the battlefield. They might have good "phalanx" troops, and access to Hoplitai both in Custom Battle mode or as auxiliaries in the game, but these troops lack the flexibility of the Sweboz Dugundiz. They make for it with a wide range of troops with high lethality and attack though relatively low discipline and formation tightness, which results in perhaps the most fluid and flexible line of the game, but also the most unpredictable and fragile one. Like all "barbarians", the Getai must be wary of missiles, but their high tier troops are better equipped to deal with them than the Sweboz, while their lower tier is cheap and replaceable.

On the "scary" factor the Getai are lacking. The only trick they may resort to are flaming arrows in abundance, but otherwise they have no special "scary" troops that can shake enemy morale during an engagement. They have to kill them all or more before the enemy finally routs.

Bravery - *****
Steadiness - ***
Strength - *****
Scariness - *

3. Gallic Factions (Aedui & Arverni) - Gauls are a bit of a tricky bunch. They have perhaps the strongest barbarian roster, but they also have the lowest morale and discipline of all barbarian factions. They are also lacking in ranged punch, and their assault troops are good but not phenomenal, but they make for it with having Gaesatae, which unfortunately also have a restricted role in their armies; their roster is also less cost effective, but they have the best cavalry of all "barbarian" factions, except maybe the Lusotannan.

Formation tightness and morale are low across the board for line troops, while steadiness is weak - Gallic units tend to waver quickly. Scariness is strong but restricted, while "assault" is nothing phenomenal... Perhaps Teceitos, which they lose in Time of Soldiers, and regionals. They lack good AP infantry, while their later professionals and their top tier units are very good, brave and disciplined but also not cost effective. I remembed it drained my whole economy just to have a single full stack of professionals during an Arverni campaign.

Overall:

Bravery - ***
Steadiness - **
Strength - *****
Scariness - ***

4. Casse - Casse have the weaknesses of Gallic factions while not sharing much of their boni. Their elites are also good, but very expensive and limited - they lack Gaesatae, but make for it with a cadre of assorted "Chanting" and "eagle-bearing" units that inspire their morale. The majority of their line is composed of the lowest tier Celtic troops, the Gaeroas, Botroas and Brythonic regionals, who are all lacking in discipline and are not that great either. Without enough people to keep their morale up, they rout quickly, and their formation tightness also leaves to be desired.

They also lack cavalry, and while there are one or two people who might have found an use for Chariots, their bodyguard is virtually useless. They also lack outstanding assault troops (Teceitos only, again) and have virtually nothing but basic missile units.

Bravery - ****
Steadiness - **
Strength - ***
Scariness - **

Scariness

I haven't played Lusotannan yet so I won't comment on them, but you're welcome.

[athanaric]

Saba. :clown:

(voted for Swêboz of course)

Regarding your comment on Gallic cavalry: IMO all barbarian factions have pretty good cavalry, although the Casse have to rely on units that are recruitable only in one or two provinces each.

I would say that perhaps the Getai have the best cavalry roster, since they, as the only Western faction, can recruit factional HAs including elite HA/lancers with 18 (!!) morale. Tarabostes are a little weaker than Remi, Germanic, or Iberian elite cavalry, but the Ktistai more than make up for it.

[Torvus]

the Lusotannan are barbarians that don't act like barbarians. Their units are disciplined and have high morale. they have the best heavy cavalry in the west. so, personally, they have to be the fiercest "barbarians".

[DaciaJC]

2. Getai - The troops have perhaps the highest morale in the game. They also get the best assault and skirmisher roster in the game, while their long range missiles are varied and second to no other Western enemy, though they lack the steadiness of the Sweboz on the battlefield. They might have good "phalanx" troops, and access to Hoplitai both in Custom Battle mode or as auxiliaries in the game, but these troops lack the flexibility of the Sweboz Dugundiz. They make for it with a wide range of troops with high lethality and attack though relatively low discipline and formation tightness, which results in perhaps the most fluid and flexible line of the game, but also the most unpredictable and fragile one. Like all "barbarians", the Getai must be wary of missiles, but their high tier troops are better equipped to deal with them than the Sweboz, while their lower tier is cheap and replaceable.

On the "scary" factor the Getai are lacking. The only trick they may resort to are flaming arrows in abundance, but otherwise they have no special "scary" troops that can shake enemy morale during an engagement. They have to kill them all or more before the enemy finally routs.

Bravery - *****
Steadiness - ***
Strength - *****
Scariness - *



I agree with the majority of your points, but I would give more credit to the stability of a Getic line. You mentioned Dugundiz as being versatile - the Getikoi Stratiotai (light phalanx) is better in terms of defense and morale, and they are equipped with a sica as well. Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (heavy phalanx) are much better in every respect and are excellent line-holders. As both of these units maintain a tight formation, a Getic line can attain a relatively high density, while the less disciplined shock infantry can hold position behind the main line until they engage in flanking maneuvers. I would rate their steadiness as ****.

[ARCHIPPOS]

i'm surprised nobody counts the nomads as true "barbarians" (=whatever that means)...

[The General]

i'm surprised nobody counts the nomads as true "barbarians" (=whatever that means)...

Methinks it means those factions that share the Barbarian culture.

I voted for the Sweboz, the fierce, brave, scary men from the Woods in the North, who are also surprisingly steady at the battlefield.

:viking:

[WinsingtonIII]

I had to go for Getai, if anything is fierce, it's a guy charging at you with a falx. Plus, they have one of the most versatile rosters in the game.

I agree with anatharic that they might very well actually have the best cavalry of the "barbarians" simply because no other can counter an armored horse archer like the Ktistai.

[satalexton]

You missed out the Romans, mate.

[antisocialmunky]

Getai Merc out Celtic Naked Spearman and chop everything to ribbons.

[Kevin]

You missed out the Romans, mate.

True, they were fierce enough to be able to defeat the Macedonians, after all.

[Tollheit]

That said the Sweboz lack a good equivalent to the "Gaesatae".
Woithiz Watha: not good or not a Gaesatae equivalent?


and while there are one or two people who might have found an use for Chariots, their bodyguard is virtually useless.

The Casse bodyguard is their best unit as far as I am concerned. Cidainh are really badass, fun to use, and unlike eastern chariots they don't run amok.
I think I get at least as much kills using Casse bodyguards than with Saka bodyguards.

[Aemilius Paulus]

You missed out the Romans, mate.
And the Makedonians, for actually holding on for three:smash: wars against Rome - not bad. Remember, Makedonians were barbarian, tribal culture - even Greeks considered them barbarous.

:evilgrin::devilish:

Is it just me or do I remember sometime in the past a discussion banning Romaioktonoi agitation on these forums??

[Olaf The Great]

A fully upgraded (4+ chevrons) Sweboz army with a forager and winter warrior general with pretty much level everyone.

Also note that in the late game Casse have some of the best cavalry in the west.

[Kevin]

A fully upgraded (4+ chevrons) Sweboz army with a forager and winter warrior general with pretty much level everyone.

Winter warrior? What's that?:inquisitive:

[Ibrahim]

Sweboz by far:

they/their sister cultures are the only ones to my knowlege who nailed enemy heads to tree trunks-no other people can be that fierce/sadistic:clown:

[Raygereio]

Winter warrior? What's that?:inquisitive:

From export_VnVs.txt:
Winter Campaigning Not Restricted
"Historically, there were seasons for campaigning. This varied depending on climate and custom. Winter was usually not a time for armies to be on the march. However, this man and his people use this to their advantage, and are not burdened by these restrictions."

The Sweboz, Sauromatae, Saka and Pahlava will get this trait and won't get a movement penalty in the winter.

[etipac]

In my campaigns the Sewbs always crush the gauls so they must be the best of them..

Etienne

[Andronikos]

Casse. Sure, they don't have the strongest armies in the world, but they are really fierce and scary. Even Gauls considered them barbaric. Painted and scared bodies, heroic culture, fearless champions. Their basic units like Lugoae, Bataroas, Gaeroas or Gaelaiche look a way scarier than their Gallic cousins. Goildic units are not their factional, but they are in their natural expansion region and they add to their scariness. And who says that Casse lack strong line unit hasn't met Milnaht yet. They can be recruited on British isles too IIRC.

Sweboz were my second choice, but I finally choose Casse, because they are a little underestimated.

And I have to add that I voted by the fierce or scary factor, if I considered ability to field strong and versatile armies with good line troops, it would be a Gauls vs. Getai duel.

[The General]

Sweboz by far:

they/their sister cultures are the only ones to my knowlege who nailed enemy heads to tree trunks-no other people can be that fierce/sadistic:clown:

Well, the Celts (Gauls at least) did collect heads from their enemies and place them on the vertical posts of doorways... Of course, doors are much less fierce than tree(trunk)s.

[Cute Wolf]

Lusotann, bravery is good, relatively numerous and easy to get, their formations maybe isn't as tight, but they got really disciplined army that could overmatch their Romaioi and Kardechoi counterparts. Their weakness is complete lack of scary units...
(I Vote Lusotann)

But the most effective is Sweboz of course... especially when see their (the Luso's) sky-high upkeep that could feed more pantodapoi phalangitai....:no:

[athanaric]

I'm still wondering if it is legitimate to count the units labelled as "Iberian" among the Lusotannan. IIRC, the Lusotannan get them from regional barracks, not from native ones.

That said, the Lusotannan have some truly excellent units (even without Iberi Lanceari), but are a bit lacking in "barbarian-ness" IMO.

[Bucefalo]

IMHO this is a silly discussion. I don´t see how some "barbarian" faction was more or less "fierce" than the other, are they supposed to be like animals? So the Sweboz are the big grizzly bear, and the lusotannan are the wolf?

Then the romans are the homo sapiens, if you get what i mean.

[keiskander]

Scariness for the Getai are rather low facing Drapanai would be rather scary.

[antisocialmunky]

Drapnai, Bastarnae, naked celts, horse archers, and good heavy cav. :-p

[alexanderthegreater]

I would also say the Getai cavalry is the best, considerably better than the lusotannan cavalry. IMHO the lusotannan mounted skirmishers are crap, as are all mounted skirmishers :thumbsdown:

And the Getai have HA - elite HA/spear Ktistai (which are teh greatest) and good somewhat cost effective allround tarabostes melee cavalry. And the Thracian light cavalry which they can recruit is also good, really the best mounted skirmisher in the game, because they can function as medium cavalry also.

[Cambyses]

Casse are very under-rated it would seem. Especially those chariots. No other faction gets a scary general!

[Ludens]

You missed out the Romans, mate.

I think some people have misunderstood the motto "Everyone is a barbarian to someone".

[IrishHitman]

None of those factions scare me...

The only factions I ever have severe trouble with are my fellow Greeks and Carthage (due to Elite African Pike spam).


Casse are very under-rated it would seem. Especially those chariots. No other faction gets a scary general!
Casse are crap. I use Casse for target practice for my Cretans...

[Ca Putt]

Gauls have some units that scare the enemy, yet the rest of their army does not really give me the creeps they seem to be somewhat the "good guys".
Lusotani ambush all the time which can make it pretty scary to pass through their territory but once you fight them they are not particularity scary in a proper barbarian manner as they either look like boy scouts or far too civilized.

Casse units on the other hand often have woad all over them thus seem a bit crazy and scary in a barbaric manner they may not have woad painted Naked dudes but afaik a lot of units that wear a shirt in gaul don't in britain mainly to show their body art. plus the presence of more chariots as chariots are scary whereas not in a barbaric manner ;) last but not least the casse have their Champions who have a sort of "scary" and "terrifying" overtone. on the other hand I always associate Casse with a lot of water and mountains which somewhat takes their "fierceness" away for me :(

Getai have the best roster of all "barbarians" that said I'd like to add that they don't have factional fear units(or do they?) which somewhat a blow. Imho they are a bit to civilised to get the "fiercest barbarians" eg. horse archers are effective and not fierce in a barbarian sort of way. they lack this crazy look in the eyes with the exception of the drapanai, <- they are fierce! when I was a soldier I would rather run away from a wild dude with a falx than a naked Frenchmen, provided off course I wear trousers and a good belt :clown: and as general they are equally scary as you know if they get to your troops they will cut them to little bits :(. another thing that makes then seem to be the second most "fierce Barbarian" is their location in a pretty dark area (in the opinion of the Coast dwelling "civilized" factions) they have their own territory behind which the total wilderness begins where the tribes are free and wild ...same also goes for the sweboz tho more extreme. which leads us to my personal "fiercest barbarians"

the sweboz: they dwell in the dark and dense woods and marches of Germania. It is not safe for a roman or Greek too travel these dark lands full of swamps, cold wind, wood demons and angry barbarians who come out of nowhere. they are without doubt the most "barbaric" "barbarian" faction after all. they are one of the few peoples who make massive use of clubs(now that's barbaric) even their levy troops are scary to a(very) small degree, Chatti youths storm viciously at thier foe with the unshaved beard obscuring their faces. their Generals fight on foot together with the other warriors they don't need horses as they don't intend to flee. the moral of the most units is better than that of the Celts which implies a certain braveness of barbarians. for truely scary units they have their (crappy) naked spearman which because of his dark body art looks much more terrifying than his celtic colegues the wargozez has to be considered somewhat a factional mercenary still i think they can go into this. in contrast to the naked fear people these guys have AP axes which is especially effective against southern invaders. as an extra one could count Basternoz falxmen and Lugian swordsmen who are armed with "scary" and"fierce" weapons as mentioned above.

[The General]

None of those factions scare me...

The only factions I ever have severe trouble with are my fellow Greeks and Carthage (due to Elite African Pike spam).

1. Pikemen
2. AI opponent
3. ?????
4. Profit!

Rinse 'n' repeat, eh.

[Phalanx300]

they are one of the few peoples who make massive use of clubs(now that's barbaric)

Clubs and bone. :2thumbsup:

[WinsingtonIII]

Getai have the best roster of all "barbarians" that said I'd like to add that they don't have factional fear units(or do they?) which somewhat a blow.

They don't have any factional fear units, which I think is silly as Drapanai are certainly scary in my opinion. Their unit description even talks about how they think they are immortal and how "these warriors did not fear death, because death was the gateway to their prophet-god Zalmoxis." However, since the EB team did not find a historical precedent of these men striking fear into their eyes through reputation alone; I certainly respect the decision not to make them a scary unit.

The Getai can recruit Uirodusios (the scary naked Celtic spearmen) regionally but so can pretty much any other "barbarian" nation as well as some of the more "civilized" ones.

[Ca Putt]

yup I agree and I also said they are fierce and a bit crazy but I don't think they would really need that attribute as this would make them more expensive and after all if the get the scare ability TABs Cataphracts, spartans pretorians etc. should get it aswell and well, I'd protest aginst that :D

[WinsingtonIII]

yup I agree and I also said they are fierce and a bit crazy but I don't think they would really need that attribute as this would make them more expensive and after all if the get the scare ability TABs Cataphracts, spartans pretorians etc. should get it aswell and well, I'd protest aginst that :D

I can agree with that. We shouldn't start handing out scare bonuses to any unit that fights with a great deal of discipline. In that case any and ever elite would have them plus all professional phalanxes and legionnaires (really almost any professional unit if you think about it), which would be ridiculous. And if we're not going to give scare bonuses to disciplined units, we shouldn't give them to units that simply fight with religious zeal. Good point.

[Weebeast]

I'm gonna vote for Getai for two simple facts that my army will take quite high casualties fighting them and they can hold on to their provinces quite a while even if they are fighting two wars or more against Maks, Epeiros and Sauros in actual campaign.

That's me as Rome. :thumbsdown: That's also Getai fighting 3 factions with Makedonia later joined as the fourth. I actually considered expanding east but I had looked carefully and I rejected the idea at least until Marian reform. (well technically I'm already in the east but in Egypt front fighting evil Selukids...)
https://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8065/lolarmorpiercing.jpg

Edit - Seeing as Sweboz is winning the contest, I just have to clarify that this is from Roman, Carthaginian and Greek perspectives. My army consists of one or two crappy cavalry, light and heavy infantries in 2 to 1 ratio. As Helennes, long pike phalanxes take the role of heavy infantry and better cavalry takes the role of the former's crappy cavalry. AI Sweboz stands no chance.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Yep, I remember it was hell on earth to take out the Getai as Epeiros. My units suffered extremely high casualties, especially the Pezhetairoi phalanxes, but my light infantry (Peltastai) suffered by far the worst depredations ever. I had to replace them constantly.

[Cute Wolf]

Yep, I remember it was hell on earth to take out the Getai as Epeiros. My units suffered extremely high casualties, especially the Pezhetairoi phalanxes, but my light infantry (Peltastai) suffered by far the worst depredations ever. I had to replace them constantly.

Peltastai is meant to screen your main army.... no wonder if they die more quickly........

But for my experience, to take the Getai out of their place, all you need to have is just more sphendonetai, and all will be ok...

My Typical Hellenic Army on campaign in Getai:
1x Somatophylakes Strategou (All version, including KH's foot FM)
2x Hippakontistai, or better still, Sauro HA
6-7x Hoplitai Haploi, Peltastai, Phalangitai Deuteroi, or Hoplitai
5-6x Sphendonetai
If have some spare.... Any good cav, usually Plain Hippeis, Lonchoporoi Hippeis, or even Hetairoi as Maks

EDIT: Although they are still better than didn't have any missile units at best.... I didn't usually take on plain toxotai, because they tend to waste their arrows rather quickly..... but Kretikoi ones are the best when it comes to them.... take them if u can and have the time to Import them

[Ca Putt]

ranged units are the best answer to "barbarian" factions. which is the only reason I have one unit of kretans that does not serve in my main army but secures the north borders against the getai with whom I am allied(on the paper, but you know the AI) as KH but I always feel bad when useing to many ranged units in one army.

[IrishHitman]

1. Pikemen
2. AI opponent
3. ?????
4. Profit!

Rinse 'n' repeat, eh.

Yeah, they're beyond irritating.
And I can't use the console to screw them because I'm on Vista.

In my current Makedonia campaign, Carthage have taken over the entire Italian peninsula.
I had seized the Greek cities of Sicily via my navy, but the Carthage pike spam really messed things up, and I wasn't arsed to launch a counterattack as the AS and Pontus decided they'd mess with me in the East.

The AS won the duel over Antioch a long time ago at this point, and they'd made peace with the Ptollies...


Peltastai is meant to screen your main army.... no wonder if they die more quickly........

But for my experience, to take the Getai out of their place, all you need to have is just more sphendonetai, and all will be ok...

My Typical Hellenic Army on campaign in Getai:
1x Somatophylakes Strategou (All version, including KH's foot FM)
2x Hippakontistai, or better still, Sauro HA
6-7x Hoplitai Haploi, Peltastai, Phalangitai Deuteroi, or Hoplitai
5-6x Sphendonetai
If have some spare.... Any good cav, usually Plain Hippeis, Lonchoporoi Hippeis, or even Hetairoi as Maks

EDIT: Although they are still better than didn't have any missile units at best.... I didn't usually take on plain toxotai, because they tend to waste their arrows rather quickly..... but Kretikoi ones are the best when it comes to them.... take them if u can and have the time to Import them

I deal with the Getai by seizing the Crimea (by bribes or conquest) and then using the excellent armoured archers available there.
The cheeky Getic falxmen are too busy chasing around my skirmisher cavalry to mind getting pincushioned.

[Cute Wolf]

But in turns, your Bosophoran holdings are vulnerable to Sauro invasion, that in VH, could lead the Sauro become allied with Getai.... A really BAD BAD BADASSSS...... Combination, if played right by the ai... but u know the ai.......

[IrishHitman]

But in turns, your Bosophoran holdings are vulnerable to Sauro invasion, that in VH, could lead the Sauro become allied with Getai.... A really BAD BAD BADASSSS...... Combination, if played right by the ai... but u know the ai.......

I always put a good amount of men in the Bosophorus.
Also, in my VH/H Mak campaign, the Getai are beating the Sauro's asses...
For some reason, they don't feel inclined to attack me.

They've seized a large part of the steppe from what I can see (I can't use the console due to Vista)...

[Cute Wolf]

I always put a good amount of men in the Bosophorus.
Also, in my VH/H Mak campaign, the Getai are beating the Sauro's asses...
For some reason, they don't feel inclined to attack me.

They've seized a large part of the steppe from what I can see (I can't use the console due to Vista)...

? Sauro is beaten by getai..... ? :inquisitive:

Ohh.... poor Sauro....

BTW, I'll bet they allready had much sauro HA themself on their hands (the Getai can train sauro HA).... so just prepare for the worst, because if massive HA / Drapanai combo is on, even on the AI's stupid hands it could be very devastating to unprepared (read, not with their proper counter) army....

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

You missed out the Romans, mate.
Actually, he asked for the fiercest barbarians, and if there's anything I can assure you with certainty, than it will be the fact that the Romans are indeed not very fierce. Maybe in the bedroom though.

But to answer the OP's original question, it's the Sweboz man. They are by far the most scaring, and if I could vote for the most scary unit in the game, I'd go with Kludda Lugiae though they're technically not Germanic. The Lugian lvl5 Kludda make mincemeat of my Thorakitai! The Lugian über armies can beat even Argyraspides if they can take on them downhill! They scare the hell out of me! Whereas the Getai constantly avoid any battle with me...

[Tollheit]

They are called Marslugoi Lugjiskoi nowadays, and you are right, they are frighteningly effective. Much better than Druxtiz Basterniska even, but like them, they are almost defenseless against missiles.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The Britons varient, Kluddargos I think they are called, are similar to the Lugians but wear mail armor....

They scare me.

In fact in my Aedui campaign I attacked my loyal allies the Casse simply so I would be able to recruit these monstrosities. They work wonders against armored units. As soon as I'm done with the Lusotann in Nortern Iberia, I'll turn those wicked two handers towards the monster stacks in central europe.

[IrishHitman]

? Sauro is beaten by getai..... ? :inquisitive:

Ohh.... poor Sauro....

BTW, I'll bet they allready had much sauro HA themself on their hands (the Getai can train sauro HA).... so just prepare for the worst, because if massive HA / Drapanai combo is on, even on the AI's stupid hands it could be very devastating to unprepared (read, not with their proper counter) army....

From what I've gathered from spies, their armies are a mix of HAs and foot missile troops, with a couple of spearmen units thrown in. The Sauros wouldn't normally have such a problem, but the Saka and Parthians are putting the pressure on as well.

[WinsingtonIII]

4. Casse - Casse have the weaknesses of Gallic factions while not sharing much of their boni. Their elites are also good, but very expensive and limited - they lack Gaesatae, but make for it with a cadre of assorted "Chanting" and "eagle-bearing" units that inspire their morale. The majority of their line is composed of the lowest tier Celtic troops, the Gaeroas, Botroas and Brythonic regionals, who are all lacking in discipline and are not that great either. Without enough people to keep their morale up, they rout quickly, and their formation tightness also leaves to be desired.

They also lack cavalry, and while there are one or two people who might have found an use for Chariots, their bodyguard is virtually useless. They also lack outstanding assault troops (Teceitos only, again) and have virtually nothing but basic missile units.

Bravery - ****
Steadiness - **
Strength - ***
Scariness - **


I think that this representation of the Casse is a little unfair. I agree that their lack of more professional units is annoying, as relying on Botroas and Gaeroas for your main line is not fun. However, their vast variety of elite "hero" and "champion" units I think makes them both very interesting to play as and fierce in their own way. And if these hero units are used effectively, their line can be quite steady (although expensive).

I've found the chariots to be quite effective against the more loose-order "barbarian" infantry of the Gallic tribes and the Sweboz. You don't tell them to attack directly, you keep them moving constantly and run through the enemy units, both disrupting the line, killing some men, and giving the units a fear penalty. In most of my battles they take 15 casualties or less and inflict at least 150-200 each (admittedly that's including routers).

To claim that they lack effective assault troops is I think the greatest mistake. Any of the Hero or Champion units can act as very effective heavy assault infantry (They all have .225 lethality longswords except for Cwmyr). However, if you want dedicated assault troops, Kluddargos are amazing. Their two-handed swords have .285 lethality, and they're heavily armored as well. They're the Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi of the far West. I also think it's fair to consider the Goidilic roster when talking about the Casse as they have the most convenient access to it. If we do so, the Casse get some of the best assault units in the game, including the Ordmalica, who wield .31 lethality hammers and have 18 morale. Finally, there are Dubosaverlacica, who are essentially invincible, and also have 18 morale. The biggest problem here is the great expense of most of these units.

I'm not going to argue about the lack of cavalry, it's pretty sad.

I'm not saying that the Casse should be in the running for one of the best factions in the game (purely from a gameplay perspective). But I think we should give them some credit where it is do.

[Macilrille]

Actually, he asked for the fiercest barbarians, and if there's anything I can assure you with certainty, than it will be the fact that the Romans are indeed not very fierce. Maybe in the bedroom though.

I do not wish to derail the thread, but you have an agreement with EB to read more history. If we count the Romans as barbarians then they were historically fiercer than anyone. Disciplined yes, but warlike in the extreme and savage in victory. Harris, W. V.: "War and Imperialism in Republican Rome, 327- 70 BC," Oxford, 1979. Goes into much detail on this. I do not agree on all his points, but I do percieve the Romans as incredibly brutal even for a brutal time, a belief supported by much evidence.

However, they were brutal sort of like the Germans of WWII were, not very "wild, untamed and barbarian", but rather organised and brutal.

The most untamable barbarians would be the Germanic tribes probably and in EB I would say Sweboz with Getai as second, those 4+ Chevron units really kick behinds...

[artavazd]

I do not wish to derail the thread, but you have an agreement with EB to read more history. If we count the Romans as barbarians then they were historically fiercer than anyone. Disciplined yes, but warlike in the extreme and savage in victory. Harris, W. V.: "War and Imperialism in Republican Rome, 327- 70 BC," Oxford, 1979. Goes into much detail on this. I do not agree on all his points, but I do percieve the Romans as incredibly brutal even for a brutal time, a belief supported by much evidence.

However, they were brutal sort of like the Germans of WWII were, not very "wild, untamed and barbarian", but rather organised and brutal.
The most untamable barbarians would be the Germanic tribes probably and in EB I would say Sweboz with Getai as second, those 4+ Chevron units really kick behinds...

We can say that about all of the participants of wwII (destruction of Drezden?, Hiroshima Nagasaki?)

[Cute Wolf]

I think Romans are barbarians in some aspect, but in this thread, classifying Romans as barbarians will derailing this good thread, and we need to classify that what did we said as barbarians in this thread are those who have "barbarian culture on EB", as no one speak about the Nomads as a barbarians.....

[Macilrille]

We can say that about all of the participants of wwII (destruction of Drezden?, Hiroshima Nagasaki?)

I think this is not the place for such a discussion and was but providing an example, but to my mind there is a world of difference between bombing civilian populations to break the will of a state to fight and the organised mass murder carried out by Nazi Germany. No one else had Einsatstruppen and extermination camps. That debate, however, does not belong here, I just cannot abide historical inaccuracy- five of my balloons was earned by correcting inaccurate claims on the Waffen SS.

I especially cannot abide it from apologists, which- I am sorry to say (I hope it is not so)- your comment to my example smacks of. With heads of state denying The Holocaust there is the more need than ever to keep the memory of it without blaming the poor Germans of today- how can they be responsible for what their grandparents did? I for one has no bad conscience because my ancestors plundered the civilised world a thousand years ago ;-) But we must remember!


Now the thread is about the EB timeframe, and I believe the OP meant barbarian factions in the sense of having barbarian building tree, in other words West European cultures/peoples without an organised state or at most organised on the level political scientists call Chiefdoms.

[Ludens]

This is indeed not the right place to discuss that subject. A similar discussion is currently going on in the Monastery (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=121209), though.

Let's go back to topic. Any further "Romans are Barbarians" nonsense in this thread will be deleted.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Wow, Romans as the nazis of antiquity, that's a new level. I want to point out that Macilrille does not belong to the Romaioktonoi and step out of this thread because it was derailed and I don't want to be drawn into this, and especially not into some kind of German bashing.

[ziegenpeter]

I think this is not the place for such a discussion and was but providing an example, but to my mind there is a world of difference between bombing civilian populations to break the will of a state to fight and the organised mass murder carried out by Nazi Germany. No one else had Einsatstruppen and extermination camps.


We can say that about all of the participants of wwII (destruction of Drezden?, Hiroshima Nagasaki?)
I don't want to talk down to you guys and I appreciate the effort. I myself like to be corrected wether it's in a foreign language or even in my mother tongue, so it is:

Dresden and Einsatztruppen ;)