View Full Version : Whitch is the proper name for the Byz.Empire?
I know that there is a debate among many for the proper name of the Empire, based on the fact that its people never called themselves Byzantines or such.
Catiline
11-20-2002, 15:06
They called themselves Romaoi it's the Greek for Roman
Rosacrux
11-20-2002, 16:26
Actually it's "Romei". Ktonos propably knows that as good as I do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The term "Byzantine" is a 18th or 19th century invention, by a French scholar (the name now escapes my mind) and he did so to distinguish the Greek-Orthodox Roman Empire of the East, from the Roman-Pagan Roman Empire of the West (or the whole).
The roots of the term (for those who are not familiar) are quite simple: Constantinople was build on top of an existing Greek settlement (colony) that thrived thanks to it's great position in the Bosporus, and the name of that colony was Byzantium.
The term has been accepted widely and is therefore used by everyone, even though if you invented a time machine and went back to those years, nobody would understand who you'd talk about if asking for "the Byzantine emperor".
It's ok to call Byzantines such, but the official name is Roman Empire or just "Empire" and they called themselves "Romei", which in time (after the complete hellenization of the imperial structure - circa 8th century AD) came to mean besides the citizen of the empire, also "Greek".
The term survived in the modern Greek language too, and the word "Romios" (plural "Romioi") is another way to say "Greek" (which is "Hellin" in Greek) and "Romiosini" is essentially the global Greek element (like "Hellinismos").
Yes, thats true. I know several old men back to my island who never call themselves other than "Romios/Romioi". But that was the way the Byzantine (err...whatever) administration tried to make understood to the westerners that the eastern empire was the righteous bearer of the Roman Imperial inheiritance. For the same reason the Germans called their empire as Holy Roman Empire. As far as I know the Byzantine maps named the HRE as Germania, or Vasilio ton Germanon (Kingdom of the Germans) and the western maps named the ERE/Byzantium as "The empire of the Greeks (well I have only sea a French 1300+AD and a Venician of 1424AD).
Catiline
11-20-2002, 17:11
I bow to your superior knowledge. My Greek isn't what it should be http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Hakonarson
11-21-2002, 02:05
I believe teh correct term is the Roman Empire, which is not an option.
Not that I think a vote is the best way to determine it anyway lol
rasoforos
11-21-2002, 02:33
i also believe the correct term is roman empire. this can be retrieved by the title of the emperor which was 'roman emperor' 'aftokrator romaion' . more or less since they called themselves 'romaioi' i guess the empire should be called 'roman'...and dutch people should be called netherlandians i suppose :P
it cannot be 'greek empire' since the byzantines, although they were speaking greek and using greek technology, wouldnt call themselves greeks. actually the term 'greek' meant a pagan , a believer of the greek pantheon and to make a long story short you were not allowed to be 'greek' , a non-christian in the Empire with the punishment of death.
it cannot be Empire of Konstantinoupoli because noone ever used this term.
Hello to everyone from Greece out there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Tachikaze
11-21-2002, 02:59
Japan is really Nihon
India is Bharat
Sweden is Sverige
If you go back in a time machine and use the phrase "(Eastern) Roman Empire" no one will understand you either.
Byzantium or Byzantine Empire is clear, universally understood, and prevents any confusion.
Rosacrux
11-21-2002, 08:44
Hey rasoforos, where did you get your rasa from? Stolen or earned? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif You are wrong about the term "Greek" (hellin) though, as people in the empire identified themselves as "Greek" in the later stages.
Tachikaze I disagree, if you asked for "the emperor of the Romans" (and used Greek to spell the words) they would lead you to the bearer of the title... or, more like it, they would throw you in a torture chamber to find out why you are looking for the Emperor http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
But I agree on the modern use of the term "Byzantine", as it is pretty specific and to-the-point.
Catiline
11-21-2002, 12:19
I thought Byzantine politics were by their nature unspecific and not to the point http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
rasoforos
11-21-2002, 13:44
rosacrux i buy my rasa only from the best http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
i might be wrong in that but i think the first byzantine to openly talk about 'greek' instead of 'roman' was georgios gemistos ( plithon ) in morea , which was during the 15 century ( i might be wrong here since its been ages since i were in school) so it can be considered that the term 'hellenism" was used , just used because it never became dominant before the 19th century (as it can be seen from the greek revolution history) , during the empires last breaths.
Tachikaze , as Rosacrux says they would understand 'romaiki aytokratoria' (roman empire) and they would understand 'byzantio' also. and if you would ask for the 'aytokrator romaion' you would get to speak with the emperor. however 'roman empire' or 'roman emperor' would not give you a result since noone bothered to speak english back then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
rasoforos
11-21-2002, 13:48
and by the way i speculate that using 'eastern' in front would not be correct fo most of the existence of the empire since the west roman empire fell quite early in history and in no way 'the holy roman empire' was concidered roman or even an empire. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
Actually the word which was assosiated with ancient greek pagan culture was "Ellinas", the one that Greeks use to call themselves today. Grecos (Greek) is an ancient (far more older than Ellinas, term which was lost in the pass of time and returned during the Greek revolution of 1821). I do not really know what the people of the Empire called themselves most of the time.(this is something I really want to know.) Surely Romios is one possible right answer, but I am not so sure that it was the dominating name.
Rosacrux
11-21-2002, 15:28
rasoforos
You got the assorted beard too? Or is this too much to ask for? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Ktonos
It's funny that the term Greek (Graekos) was used by the Turks as a derigatory term, to define those "lesser" subjects of the Ottoman empire the "Ellines" were... tsk, tsk, tsk...
Catilin
You got a point here... and a very specific one too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
G0THIC-Lobster
11-21-2002, 15:31
its daeastern roman empire,they speak greeks because of some strange political reason.
Rosacrux
11-21-2002, 15:43
Quote[/b] (G0THIC-Lobster @ Nov. 21 2002,08:31)]its daeastern roman empire,they speak greeks because of some strange political reason.
...like because Greeks were the majority of the inhabitants of the empire and also all emperors (save the hellenized Armenians) after 700 AD were Greeks?
Yeah, strange and political reasons... indeed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Rosacrux,
Grecos, believe me, is far far older than Ellinas. Ellada comes from the ancient greek word Lus (light) and Landi (land). Before 800BC it was called as
Luslandia->Lasndia->Ellasndia->Ellas->Ellada.
But for Grecos,Grecia is not known what it had ever meant. Thus the Turks refered to Hellenes as Grekoi giving it the meaning of Ragias (slave), and if you look in a french dictionary, the word is explained as "a thief, a charlatan, a beggar).
Rosacrux
11-21-2002, 15:50
I know Ktonos, I know, I was just reffering to how the word emerged back from oblivion: as a derigatory term used by the Turks And not only, you know. Napoleon called "Bloody Greeks" the enemies that wouldn't stand and fight.
Correct, the term finally ended up a hybris for the Hellenic civilization, and this is the reason why I prefer us to be internationaly called as Hellenes and our country Hellas, but then it's a bit difficult for an outsider to pronounce.
Tachikaze
11-21-2002, 22:34
Just to clear it up, I was saying that the people back then did not literally call the empire "Eastern Roman Empire" (in English). My point was that, since we're translating into English anyway, we might as well use what we are most comfortable with.
The y-z combination gives the written "Byzantine" a nice, exotic look. Also, it allows the British to pronounce it "bi'-zan-tine" or "bi-zan'-tine" while the Americans say "bi'zan-teen". We love to distinquish ourselves. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
correct me if i am wrong, but i thought the word 'greeks' came from the first hellenic city the romans came into contact with in italy, and they applied that word to the rest of the hellenes as they expanded?
rasoforos
11-26-2002, 02:10
yes you are correct. greeks comes from 'graikoi' and it was indeed a greek speaking population that the romans first came into contact with. the word 'helleene' or 'hellin' PROBABLY comes from the roots ktonos gave and althuogh it comes from 'hellas' a term which would describe a rather small area in greece during the mycenian and pro-mycenian times ( for example the greeks in iliad were not 'helleenes' but achaians etc) but after about 800-900 bc the word 'hellas' meant the whole of greece. Concerning the 'graikoi' it was widelly used before the 1821 revolution by non-greek polulations to characterise the greeks. To me the proper terms should be 'Hellas' and 'hellin-helleene' instead of Greece and Greek
Quote[/b] (Ktonos @ Nov. 20 2002,10:10)]"Romios/Romioi"
I do not really know what the people of the Empire called themselves most of the time.(this is something I really want to know).
They called themselves "Romios/Romioi" to answer your question http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Spent many years researching the Roman Empire 500AD to 1453AD, along with the Middle east. hmmmmmm 11 to be roughly correct.
In between other research.
Ktonos, I need some words translated from English to Hellene, but I need them In theEnglish Alphabet
It seems that I cannot mail you for some reason, but I have no problem to help via thread post.
Ktonos,
Clicky thingie (fenir@paradise.net.nz)
Now if you are really good, I might entice you to become my Kouropalates, or possibly Protokouropalates. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
PS: Made a post In the Dungeon for you to look at.
Sevastokrator fenir http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
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