View Full Version : Javelin Ammo in the saddle....
Cute Wolf
09-19-2009, 10:15
Recently, I has to carry a lot of fishing rods with motorcycle (helping my cousin's with their store), no, don't think about small fishing rods, I talk about a rather large fishing rods made from bamboo, with a relatively straight and long (1.5 m each on average) and have considerable thickness. After tied a lot of them on the back and carried them away in the normal manner, my cousins point out that some twenty of them are still not tied. Unable to untie the big bag full of rods without cutting the rope, I decide to carry them on my left hand, putting all of them under my armpit and keep them in place with just a short rope to hold them...
While this morning I run my motorcycle, I remember the EB game that I play tonight..... If I could carry 20++ of these pointy sticks with left hand without interfering much my motor riding ability.... Why the ancient javelin-skirmisher cavalry didn't carry as much as this? So they'll become more effective.....
I think that hippaontistai, hetairoi aspidophoroi, leuce epos, and many mounted javelinmen's ammo can be increased up to 17 or 18 in their realistic condition..... so what did u think? I know, they had to thrown them, but I can do that (take one of these "javelins" and throw them as quickly), if my right hand isn't occupied to twist the gas.....
Brave Brave Sir Robin
09-19-2009, 15:32
Well bamboo is hollow, javilins were not making them heavier. Plus riding a horse is not a walk in the park, not sure if you ever have. At full gallop trying to accurately throw a javilin while holding 10 others under your other arm would be impossible. Remember there were no stirrups for the soldier to stand upon and throw, he needed to do it from a seated position. I can't imagine how difficult this must have been. I wonder if they even were able to throw javilins on the move or if they just ran around behind the enemy and threw them from a standstill.
Weebeast
09-19-2009, 16:08
Lack of stirup is no problem for most people who grew up riding stir-up-less horses the same way shift-sticked cars are no problem for people who grew up riding shift-sticked cars. They all still talk on the phone! I saw a show about "manhood rite" on National Geographic or something. They had no stirups. I'm googling it now but so far no luck. Interestingly, those guys actually stop to throw their javelins. So if you're galloping and throwing it's safe to say you're doing it wrong.
Btw, throwing while moving is not reflected in game is it? Your accuracy stays the same whether you move or stay still?
As for the units in game, I don't think they're weak. They do what I want them to do that is harass slow lightly armored units. Maybe give some more ammo to the Numidians Cavalry since they either die or rout even fighting the Numidian Skirmishers...
I agree, they need more ammo :juggle2: 8 javelins usually kills like 2 units
Btw, throwing while moving is not reflected in game is it? Your accuracy stays the same whether you move or stay still?
I am pretty sure accuracy is not affected by movement, although I have not seen it confirmed.
As for the units in game, I don't think they're weak. They do what I want them to do that is harass slow lightly armored units. Maybe give some more ammo to the Numidians Cavalry since they either die or rout even fighting the Numidian Skirmishers...
Numidian cavalry is an extreme version of javelin cavalry: very good with missile, but even more useless at close-combat. And you shouldn't get into a missile duel with infantry missile units. Horsemen are more expensive, make bigger targets and have smaller units.
I agree, they need more ammo :juggle2: 8 javelins usually kills like 2 units
I think you are using them wrongly; at least, I take it 2 units actually means 2 soldiers. Using javelins frontally against well-shielded infantry is indeed not going to make much of an impression. However, if you attack the unshielded side or rear, your javelins will do more damage, and missile cavalry has the mobility to do this.
Brave Brave Sir Robin
09-19-2009, 22:31
Some have more ammo than others too its worth noting. Cantabrians, Dahae, and Arachosians get 14? javelins. Others get either 8 or 6 I believe except the Germanic ones which get a lot fewer as the price for larger javelins.
Cute Wolf
09-20-2009, 02:30
I allready see the cantabrians with their tons of ammo..... but the others have only a few.... well, stocking avelins in the left side could take 15-16... if they are somewhat heavier than bamboo rods...
mountaingoat
09-20-2009, 02:34
wouldn't you be able to get much more range and force from throwing a javelin on foot ...? or is this why they were on horseback , to ride up very close , throw then ride off into the sunset.
antisocialmunky
09-20-2009, 13:33
How did the numidian cavalry rout both the Roman cavalry at Cannae and later the Carthiginian Cavalry at Zama? In EB, their cav is obviously superior.
Apázlinemjó
09-20-2009, 15:23
How did the numidian cavalry rout both the Roman cavalry at Cannae and later the Carthiginian Cavalry at Zama? In EB, their cav is obviously superior.
Agreed, they are too weak and compared to that too expensive in EB.
athanaric
09-20-2009, 15:59
How did the numidian cavalry rout both the Roman cavalry at Cannae and later the Carthiginian Cavalry at Zama? In EB, their cav is obviously [inferior].
My (uneducated) guess is that the Numidian cavalry forces at Cannae and Zama didn't only consist of unarmoured skirmishers. In EB, we have Numidian Nobles to represent some of those that were capable to tackle other cavalry in melee.
My (uneducated) guess is that the Numidian cavalry forces at Cannae and Zama didn't only consist of unarmoured skirmishers. In EB, we have Numidian Nobles to represent some of those that were capable to tackle other cavalry in melee.
And I guess it would be safe to assume that numidians are going to be fleshed out alot more in EB2. Will likely have several cavalry options to more accurately reflect the different forces they fielded historically.
How did the numidian cavalry rout both the Roman cavalry at Cannae and later the Carthiginian Cavalry at Zama? In EB, their cav is obviously superior.
Superior in game but perhaps not in reality.
Numidians have crap equipments, but so did the Alans who nearly killed the Armenian king by dragging him down with a lasso. They're born horsemen, while the Carthaginians and Romans are not. :no: Skills and morale are far more important IMHO, though their value is often ignored or reduced, probably for game balancing...
artavazd
09-20-2009, 20:48
Superior in game but perhaps not in reality.
Numidians have crap equipments, but so did the Alans who nearly killed the Armenian king by dragging him down with a lasso. They're born horsemen, while the Carthaginians and Romans are not. :no: Skills and morale are far more important IMHO, though their value is often ignored or reduced, probably for game balancing...
which armenian king are you talking about
How do can you use skirmisher calvaries efficiently? I tend to not include any in my armies because they have little ammo, they aren't as good as foot soldiers, always get chased by at least one unit of the enemy's army, and have no charge which makes them useless after they run out of ammo.
Back on to topic, you guys neglect the fact that the men holding these spears were probably stronger, and more trained than any of you (no offense) so you can't compare your skills with those of the men depicted in EB. :juggle2:
ziegenpeter
09-20-2009, 23:32
How do can you use skirmisher calvaries efficiently? I tend to not include any in my armies because they have little ammo, they aren't as good as foot soldiers, always get chased by at least one unit of the enemy's army, and have no charge which makes them useless after they run out of ammo.
I'd like to know that too. I always prefere foot skirmishers.
How do can you use skirmisher calvaries efficiently? I tend to not include any in my armies because they have little ammo, they aren't as good as foot soldiers, always get chased by at least one unit of the enemy's army, and have no charge which makes them useless after they run out of ammo.
Well, there's one reason. Skirmisher cavalry are intended to harass the enemy, whittle their numbers, tire them out... not deal major blows. They could use a little boost, though, considering the disparity in effectiveness (in this case, how many enemy soldiers are killed by javelins) between foot and cavalry skirmishers.
*They're also great for running down routers.
Chasing routers are there only decent use. If there javelins were somewhat stronger than foot skirmishers, they'd be more useful
Cute Wolf
09-21-2009, 04:34
You forgot that Hellenic hippakontistai actually have ap kopis, that makes them useful to deal dadly flank onto Romaioi legions...
Copy from my horsemaster discussions
I Start this with... The Hellenic Hippakontistai well according to most EB AAR, there's a lot of reason to not use them, they are weak, their javelins are limited, and their class was low... but there was another reasons to use them properly, and very effectively...
1) They are readily available in first tier MIC, and large recruitment area... means they are more "expandable" and retrainable..
2) They have ap swords, albeit only 6 points w out any upgr, they are still ap, and with exp can be relied to flank even katas
3) While javelins are limited bth in range and ammo, their close range and lethality means that they are very useful... router sweeper...
4) With proper usage to sweep out routers, they can quickly advance to silver chevrons.... and with silver chev up, they are very realible to take down most armoured units...
:beam:
so with the point 3, I propose that addinsome extra javs could made the better
Eastern/Gauls w speas instead of kopis could be used to charge...
antisocialmunky
09-21-2009, 04:36
Most cavalry are over armored enough that they don't really feel javelines except in the back. Though heavy cavalry tends to be a little vulnerable but shield bearing medium cavalry(which is all Roman cav is) and catanks don't care at all. If they carried AP javelins(javelins should be more deadly versus horses since all you need is to unseat the rider with one), then they would be worth it.
Maybe give them a cav bonus or AP and then half the amount or something.
Too bad those Hellenic Skirmisher Calvary can't be recruited by Romans :shame:
antisocialmunky
09-21-2009, 04:58
Their late cavalry is better.
which armenian king are you talking about
Tiridates, AD 73
they are somewhat usfull in kh armies as you sometimes need a unit to run down the fleeing enemy general but all your units are too slow :/ they can quickly kill the general or any unit you want dead before the rest of the army routs(or just to keep them running thus not turning back to attack you once more) especially as KH rely mostly on heavy infantry which is not exactly fast.
they are also usefull when you fail to outflank the enemy with infantry as they are much faster. they throw some volleys to either let them turn around or inflict some losses. afterall most of them are so light that you can easily get behind enemy lines or distract much more powerfull troops(I once managed that a unit of cantanks chased them over the whole map and thus was far to exhausted to defeat my hoplites :D)
Cute Wolf
09-22-2009, 07:57
Too bad those Hellenic Skirmisher Calvary can't be recruited by Romans :shame:
Try to get Marian and recruit Eqvites Galorrvm, in my opnion, they are the best non-nomad light cavalry. Second is their original Gallic light cav. Afterall, they can be used to charge everyone except crack phalangitai
Numidian cavalry did not wipe out Roman cavalry at Cannae. They kept the allied heavy cavalry on the Roman left wing occupied (a success in its own), while the Libyan, Spanish and Gallic heavy cavalry fought and destroyed the Roman cavalry on the Roman right. After this the heavy cavalry rode to the left and attacked the Roman allied cavalry together with the Numidians, the allied cavalry escaped from the field relatively unscrathed but without being a help for the legions any longer.
And I think cavalry with javelins is to weak. Tests with javelins on horse and feet have shown an immense increase in the energy of the javelin if thrown on a moving horse. Instead of about 40 Joule when thrown standing, the javelin thrown galopping towards the enemy reached 200 Joule. Only the latter is real ap. Better javelin cavalry should get the ap stat.
Zradha Pahlavan
09-24-2009, 17:57
How do can you use skirmisher calvaries efficiently? I tend to not include any in my armies because they have little ammo, they aren't as good as foot soldiers, always get chased by at least one unit of the enemy's army, and have no charge which makes them useless after they run out of ammo.
They're exceedingly useful in steppe warfare, while footmen are not. Though not as good as horse archers, they're cheaper, and if nothing else you can use them to surround and destroy enemy cataphracts. They'll take a lot of losses, but they often get the job done. It's a good idea to give them heavy cavalry support though. I also tend to think that they're better against elephants, since they're fast enough to get out of the way.
antisocialmunky
09-25-2009, 14:09
Numidian cavalry did not wipe out Roman cavalry at Cannae. They kept the allied heavy cavalry on the Roman left wing occupied (a success in its own), while the Libyan, Spanish and Gallic heavy cavalry fought and destroyed the Roman cavalry on the Roman right. After this the heavy cavalry rode to the left and attacked the Roman allied cavalry together with the Numidians, the allied cavalry escaped from the field relatively unscrathed but without being a help for the legions any longer.
And I think cavalry with javelins is to weak. Tests with javelins on horse and feet have shown an immense increase in the energy of the javelin if thrown on a moving horse. Instead of about 40 Joule when thrown standing, the javelin thrown galopping towards the enemy reached 200 Joule. Only the latter is real ap. Better javelin cavalry should get the ap stat.
That would call for a reduction of ammo or something since they are usually running away. But in real life they would probably be running relays of missiles like the Normans did against the Saxons. I don't think its possible to give a attack bonus only while in cantabrian circle so... that would likely be the best.
I doubt it would be too ridiculously game changing except cataphracts become less invincible.:smash:
athanaric
09-25-2009, 19:47
I doubt it would be too ridiculously game changing except cataphracts become less invincible.:smash:
Cataphracts are invincible? That's news to me. I usually destroy one of their units with two skirmisher cavalry units...
antisocialmunky
09-26-2009, 00:24
Not versus other player. You're not usually going to lose to the AI unless it outnumbers you 3 to 1 and has naked guys.
mountaingoat
09-26-2009, 02:31
and has naked guys.
some of the horsies get a bit intimidated ??
antisocialmunky
09-26-2009, 03:49
I really don't want to know what you're getting at.
All I was saying is that the AI sucks and it takes ridiculous odds for them to win.
mountaingoat
09-26-2009, 05:10
they usually need like OVER 9000!1 troops to balance it out .
antisocialmunky
09-26-2009, 17:09
I remember fighting the Muslims in Spain in MTW. The largest battle I fought in was about 3K vs 12K.
I tried in a Custom battle to use Cantabrian Calvary on the rear of a unit of Pzeheteroi, I think they need an armor piercing ability. One volley usually kills none or a few units :inquisitive:
I remember fighting the Muslims in Spain in MTW. The largest battle I fought in was about 3K vs 12K.
let me guess, you had your rear handed to you, as you almost did in this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2228154&postcount=89)battle?:clown:
as to the AI: yeah it does suck. it either has to outnumber you big time (and even then), has elites to you militia, or the human is a total joke of a commander. pick your choice
antisocialmunky
09-28-2009, 05:16
Not really, I sat on the top of a mountain and shot or javelined in the back all 4 waves. My Feudal Sergeants and Feudal MAAs nearly died horribly though. I still really don't know how to explain that one game you posted. It was literally 5 units of cavalry and elephants fighting the Baktrian heavy bodyguard and somehow losing.
... Jinettes were like one of the best light horse units in that game. If only EB Javelin cavalry could perform legendary exploits like my Spanish Jinettes did back in MTW... :(
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