View Full Version : 1.4 Naval Balance Observations
Well, the upcoming naval balance changes were a hot topic on the forums since they were first announced by Jack Lusted. We have them now. Let's express what we observe (and how we feel about them). Here are my two cents from the first 2 campaign naval battles of the British (me) against France (AI).
1st Battle:
British: 1 5th rate, 2 6th rates
French: 2 brigs, 1 sloop, 1 galley, 1 indiaman
Outcome: British captured ALL French ships; none sunk
Notes:
1) On the battle open, it occurred that all my frigates display 400 range (for the round shot). This seemed to be the default range in the vanilla 1.3. So, either the display is wrong, or the "longer range" for frigates has not been implemented. Note that on the campaign map, unit cards for all ships display 400 range too... So, it just might be, CA has actually listened to the community.
2) The Chain Shot now has 500 range (versus the round-shot range of 400) versus the 400 range for the round shot and it is very (very!) dangerous. I switched to chain shot at the battle open and demasted the French sloop with the first salvo from my 5th rate. I did not switch to the round-shot throught the battle and the end outcome was, as mentioned above: all French ships captured... No "monster sloop" effect observed.
3) The left side of the targeting marker now is green, the right one is white. A nice touch.
4) The deployment rectangles now see to be more varied than before. I observed the french one being place diagonally relative to my British one.
2nd Battle:
British: 1 5th rate
French: 1 6th rate
Outcome: British captured the 6th rate
Notes:
Same thing as above. The battle was decided in the first 2 minutes by the first British chain-shot salvo that demasted the French 6th rate (Frigate).
Bottom line: I do not see the dreaded "monster sloop" effect implemented. On a different token: beware the CHAIN SHOT!... Maybe it's a tad overpowered now. Otherwise, I feel positive by the changes CA has made. What seems to emerge though is the AI's inability to cope with the changes. In my experience, the AI was just a sitting duck for my chain-shot salvos still trying to hit me with out-of-range round shots...
peacemaker
09-23-2009, 01:13
This reinforces my hopes to patch 1.4 as I wait to download it. I knew that before the patch, the sloops wouldn't be able to TERRORIZE the sea, they would be able to be slightly more useful than they are now. A bigger ship will still easily take them down, unless you happened to have a master admiral against you.
The chain shot is slightly puzzling, but I think it was underpowered before and half of my trade fleets in my other game were captured ships. Poor french can't build anything but indiamen, so they decided to capture a few dozen galleons from the pirates instead:laugh4:
Elmar Bijlsma
09-23-2009, 02:38
But the ships you took to battle were adjusted to be sloop/brig killers. So exactly as expected. SoL versus sloop is where it will get interesting.
Mind you, I don't expect the AI to know how to get the most out of theirs sloops in any case so for a practical purpose I don't expect to see all that much difference against a proper SoL.
But the principle of the thing still annoys me, regardless of how it ends up playing. To me it just seems so obvious that a greater fidelity to how things worked back then will automatically provide better balance.
Oh well... thank heavens for the modders, who can atleast in part undo the worst excess of this unimaginative C&C balancing.
Try Sloop versus 1st Rate.
Try Sloop versus 1st Rate.
My highest SOL so far (1712) is a 4th rate. So, tell me, what happens when you face a sloop with a 1st rate?
peacemaker
09-23-2009, 05:59
Well I should be going to sleep right now but I'm gonna go find out!
EDIT:well I was right. The SOL (2nd rate) didn't lose a single cannon. One broadside took out the first mast of a sloop(or brig, I'm not sure). A few more broadsides and the other was down.
Maybe if you had like 100 sloops, it'll be a fair fight. Until then, One or two broadsides and the sloop is out of the picture. A few cannonballs isn't gonna do anything anyway if you have a huge SOL vs SOL fight.
Durallan
09-23-2009, 06:28
unless that stray cannonball hits your gunpowder stocks ;)
actually onto those that know, did they ever actually really use explosive shot in naval battles at all? or was that sort of thing just too dangerous to leave lying around on the ships?
peacemaker
09-23-2009, 06:47
Another note: Ships don't seem to want to do stuff if you just right click other ships. They ust kinda go straight forward as if they were going to ram, but stop 30 or so feet away.
Vlad Tzepes
09-23-2009, 10:25
I fought a 12 brig Maratha fleet with my 6 3rd rate fleet and pulverised them (though one of my SoLs was taking some water at the end).
What I noticed was a slight loss in FPS when I accelerated the time - this didn't happen before. I'll test more.
Well I just did 2 custom battles 1 * 1st rate vs 10 * sloop.
First one my 1st rate routed after being set on fire by a brig that got too close & exploded, was like 3.5 sloops down at that point after about as many broadsides.
2nd battle = 3 exploded sloops, 4 sunk, 1 surrendered & 2 routed with very heavy damage, minimal damage to the first rate.
Each broadside caused the target sloop to at least waver.
The first broadside actually got cut short about half way through when that sloop exploded.
The 3rd or fourth half broadside caused the 2nd exploding sloop.
Fisherking
09-23-2009, 13:02
I have also seen that the fire power values have been changed. Sloops guns are now not as strong as before though they have 70% accuracy, as do brigs.
Smaller ships have a 100 m/yrd advantage over the SOLs but I think that is only with chain shot.
While it is a step away from realism it does not seem to have a huge effect on how it plays out from the previous setup.
I suspect, chain-shots will be nerfed in the next patch so enjoy them while they're as they are in 1.4. See the attachment: that's the outcome of an encounter between my (British) frigate and a pirate fleet consisting of 2 Galleons, 1 Flyte and 1 Brig. The end result: all 4 Pirate ships demasted and captured with barely a small scratch on the Frigate. The outcome might have been quite different if the pirates used chain on me though.
By the way, I noticed that the crews fire their muskets if the enemy ships is within range. I like that touch. Was this present before 1.4?
Durallan
09-24-2009, 02:37
Another note: Ships don't seem to want to do stuff if you just right click other ships. They ust kinda go straight forward as if they were going to ram, but stop 30 or so feet away.
I've never found it to work myself, whenever I've ordered my ship to attack an enemy ship (with a broadside facing the ship itself) its decided to turn away from the enemy ship and seems to want to go in a large circle just to get the other side to do a half hearted salvo at the enemy ship. auto targeting works much better and means I just have to orchestrate my navy
What really irks me (and was irking even before 1.4) is that square rigged vessels (any sail vessels actually) such as Galleons can ride against the wind like motorboats even after I have taken down 70% of their sails (and masts). Thank goodness for Darthmod. It gets rid of this nonsense.
Fisherking
09-24-2009, 18:10
There have been other changes. When a blockaded fleet attacks the blockade, if you are blockading then you can not retreat and if you run out the clock the enemy ships loose 5 guns and come at you again, and again, and again.
I had a sloop on blockade and some how the Spanish managed to build a galleon in the port. (a bug?) anyway after running away about 4 times I dismasted it and shelled it until is struck, so yes the small ships do pose a threat to the big ones.
It is not that I never managed to do that prior to 1.4, it is just a lot easier with the longer range of the small ships and the improved chain shot.
There have been other changes. When a blockaded fleet attacks the blockade, if you are blockading then you can not retreat and if you run out the clock the enemy ships loose 5 guns and come at you again, and again, and again.
I had a sloop on blockade and some how the Spanish managed to build a galleon in the port. (a bug?) anyway after running away about 4 times I dismasted it and shelled it until is struck, so yes the small ships do pose a threat to the big ones.
It is not that I never managed to do that prior to 1.4, it is just a lot easier with the longer range of the small ships and the improved chain shot.
That bold part: I think, it was present also in 1.3. I was never able to retreat if I got attacked while blockading a port.
As to the small ships: are you sure they have a longer range? All my ships (frigates, sloops, brigs, Indiamen) display the same range for round shots in battle: 400. It's the chain shot (for all my ships), which has gotten a longer range now (500).
As to the chainshot, I definitely have a strong feeling it will be nerfed soon. I just had a battle of 1 sloop versus 4 brigs (all healthy) and I demasted them all without a scratch on my sloop...
NimitsTexan
09-25-2009, 04:59
Chain shot has more range than round shot? That sounds backwards.
I do find it interesting that the mostly positive reviews of 1.4 naval seem to amount to "good, CA did not really change much." Given that people did not seem to want this "balancing" in the first place, why implement it all?
Durallan
09-25-2009, 06:15
well I suppose they felt they wanted to change to something they desired more, maybe they have more fun fighting each other when theyre off the clock? I get the feeling that the chain shot range probably is a bug, I wouldn't have thought chainshot would fly further than round shot, but thats why I probably haven't noticed a change because I haven't tried firing chain shot at the enemy since i first started playing the game
Hermann the Lombard
09-26-2009, 19:27
Chain shot has more range than round shot? That sounds backwards.
It is backwards, just from air friction. As for not changing much, dismasting with two broadsides is a huge change. The French would have devastated the British navy since their doctrine was to give up the weather gauge and fire high, letting them withdraw if they wished.
Sheogorath
09-26-2009, 20:39
On the other hand, steam frigates (and galleys) now actually have a purpose. Maybe that was the point of the change?
I one-shoted an Xbec with a sloop in 1.3... though I haven't done any naval batles in 1.4 yet.:yes:
Sheogorath
09-26-2009, 23:24
Just did a little test.
Four galleys and a steam frigate vs. a heavy 1st rate. 1st rate was demasted and surrendered after five minutes. I lost one galley which exploded after a volley, and the steam frigate took moderate damage.
I tried this in 1.3 a few times and always, always, lost by a heavy margin, even when I cheated by boarding the 1st rate and blasting it while it was stuck in place.
EDIT:
Actually, the 1.3 tests had MORE galleys. 8, I think.
Just be brave... In 1.4 you CAN demast that 1st rate with a sloop. Go around it, and blast from behind until it surrenders.
:wall:
Hermann the Lombard
09-27-2009, 17:17
Just be brave... In 1.4 you CAN demast that 1st rate with a sloop. Go around it, and blast from behind until it surrenders.
You could do that in 1.3, it's just a lot easier now.
Fisherking
09-27-2009, 17:44
You could do that in 1.3, it's just a lot easier now.
It was always possible. It was just extremely difficult to achieve. The equal ranges and the disparity in fire power along with the slight damage that chain shot did made it something of an unlikely outcome.
The fire powered difference now is even greater but chain shot is very much more effective and has a greater range. The accuracy of the small vessels is also much improved.
It doesn’t mean that it is not a difficult feat to achieve still, it is just a bit easier than it actually should be. I still would not want to take a single sloop against something of the SOL class and I would not try it vs. a 74, it is just with the slower ships you have an improved chance.
What really irks me (and was irking even before 1.4) is that square rigged vessels (any sail vessels actually) such as Galleons can ride against the wind like motorboats even after I have taken down 70% of their sails (and masts). Thank goodness for Darthmod. It gets rid of this nonsense.
Let me guess: You're playing on Hard or Very Hard battle difficulty. I've never seen this behavior in Normal difficulty.
If you aren't playing Hard/Very-Hard, ignore the below.
I, too, have a pet peeve about stuff I've seen as a result of the game. More than once I've seen someone talk about something wierd (like a sloop boarding their 4th rate and winning), only to find out that they're playing hard or very-hard. It's like they want the "prestige" of saying they play on the harder difficulty levels (as if "Normal" was wimping out or something), but they don't want the AI to get certain advantages (like in melee combat, which lets a sloop capturing a 4th rate). The game gives *huge* advantages to the AI in hard/very hard, not just in firepower or morale, but in little details like reload speed for line infantry, or the ability for square-rigged vessels to sail up-wind at a reasonable rate (which does make the AI *harder* to fight <G>). Do *not* assume that anything you see in very-hard is "normal", or anything other than a cheat to help the AI be harder to fight.
Ok, rant over. Sorry, Slaists, you just triggered my rant, it wasn't directed or intended at you.
Let me guess: You're playing on Hard or Very Hard battle difficulty. I've never seen this behavior in Normal difficulty.
If you aren't playing Hard/Very-Hard, ignore the below.
I, too, have a pet peeve about stuff I've seen as a result of the game. More than once I've seen someone talk about something wierd (like a sloop boarding their 4th rate and winning), only to find out that they're playing hard or very-hard. It's like they want the "prestige" of saying they play on the harder difficulty levels (as if "Normal" was wimping out or something), but they don't want the AI to get certain advantages (like in melee combat, which lets a sloop capturing a 4th rate). The game gives *huge* advantages to the AI in hard/very hard, not just in firepower or morale, but in little details like reload speed for line infantry, or the ability for square-rigged vessels to sail up-wind at a reasonable rate (which does make the AI *harder* to fight <G>). Do *not* assume that anything you see in very-hard is "normal", or anything other than a cheat to help the AI be harder to fight.
Ok, rant over. Sorry, Slaists, you just triggered my rant, it wasn't directed or intended at you.
Nope, my battle difficulty is on normal.
Nope, my battle difficulty is on normal.
Then my rant doesn't apply to you :)
Strange though about what you're seeing. Maybe they're going not straight into the wind but at an angle? Those triangular sails should allow them to tack at an angle at a not-to-unreasonable speed. Think about it, if square-riggers couldn't make headway against a wind somehow, they wouldn't have been much use!
It'd be nice if we actually saw tacking when going up-wind, but that would screw up the firing patterns for the player.
The challenge when tacking a real ship is to get enough momentum going so that when you haul it over through the direct-headwind point, you have enough residual speed so the rudder can turn you to the right angle in the other direction. That requires a fair bit of speed, especially for ships that don't go all that fast with a favorable wind to begin with.
I read a bit up on sailing after ETW came out and found it's quite a fascinating art/science!
Dreadnought2
09-29-2009, 00:37
I've always used chain-shot often (but still selectively) during naval battles.
I've also noticed the 1.4 AI is also using chain-shot far more often.
Under 1.4, the effectiveness of chain has jumped so much so that I've noticed the amount of damage formerly done by a full broadside chain-shot rake is almost as likely from a full broadside chain-shot flank hit.
Also, in the 5-6 battles I've fought so far, masts have been 'halved' rather than felled completely more often. It looks funny thereafterwards with other ships firing chain-shot harmlessly over the newly shortened masts...
I haven't used grape yet so I wonder if there are any surprises there...
Cheers,
Dreadnought1
Then my rant doesn't apply to you :)
Strange though about what you're seeing. Maybe they're going not straight into the wind but at an angle? Those triangular sails should allow them to tack at an angle at a not-to-unreasonable speed. Think about it, if square-riggers couldn't make headway against a wind somehow, they wouldn't have been much use!
It'd be nice if we actually saw tacking when going up-wind, but that would screw up the firing patterns for the player.
The challenge when tacking a real ship is to get enough momentum going so that when you haul it over through the direct-headwind point, you have enough residual speed so the rudder can turn you to the right angle in the other direction. That requires a fair bit of speed, especially for ships that don't go all that fast with a favorable wind to begin with.
I read a bit up on sailing after ETW came out and found it's quite a fascinating art/science!
If only they (the ships) were tacking in ETW... And, nope, the case I talked about was not at an angle but directly AGAINST the wind. How do I know? Because I was going directly against the wind and the AI was racing behind me :laugh4: Anyway, CA acknowledged that their ships CAN sail against the wind. Their argument for putting that 'feature' in was that otherwise naval battles would be too long and boring...
Zenicetus
09-29-2009, 20:18
Anyway, CA acknowledged that their ships CAN sail against the wind. Their argument for putting that 'feature' in was that otherwise naval battles would be too long and boring...
They also said that players would get confused if they right-clicked for a ship to go to point X, and it turned away from the destination because it had to tack to get there. In other words, they thought the player base was too dumb to understand sailing... even though very basic games like "Sid Maeir's Pirates!" did include tacking, as well as other more realistic games.
I haven't followed the mods for ETW. Does anyone know if there's a mod that only prevents sailing upwind without touching the rest of the game, and can the AI handle it? I've heard references to Darthmod, but that's a whole-game mod isn't it?
Peasant Phill
09-30-2009, 08:30
I'm fairly confidend that with the latest naval changes in 1.4 someone will develop a naval module. But AFAIK it isn't available just yet.
Pardon my sourness, but these "naval balance adjustments" in 1.4 are a complete idiocy... In 1.4, the player does not need anything higher than 5th rates to defeat ANY navies that the AI possibly can build. Even 5th rates are not needed... I've defeated fleets of 2nd rates with mere brigs and 6th rates sporting the all might chainshot.
:wall:
CA should introduce flying dragons and forest fairies while they're at it...
I've defeated fleets of 2nd rates with mere brigs and 6th rates sporting the all might chainshot.
From what's been said, it sounds like the problem is with the now overpowered chainshot rather than the (I agree, ridiculous) "balancing" of smaller ships to make them more effective. Is that right?
A couple of other questions:
(1) Does the AI use chainshot? (if it doesn't, the player can also just abstain)
(2) How common was chainshot used historically? My impression is that at battles like Trafalgar, ships were mainly just firing normal shot, but maybe I am wrong.
Monsieur Alphonse
10-05-2009, 12:14
From what's been said, it sounds like the problem is with the now overpowered chainshot rather than the (I agree, ridiculous) "balancing" of smaller ships to make them more effective. Is that right?
A couple of other questions:
(1) Does the AI use chainshot? (if it doesn't, the player can also just abstain)
(2) How common was chainshot used historically? My impression is that at battles like Trafalgar, ships were mainly just firing normal shot, but maybe I am wrong.
1. If seen the AI use it. I defeated a galleon with a sloop and the galleon fired chains at me.
2. The sea battles in ETW are nothing like the real thing. The British (and for example the Dutch and Americans) always tried to close the distance and pound the enemy with round shot. For them brutal fire power was the way of winning battles. There are some exceptions but Trafalgar is an example of endlessly pounding your opponent with cannonballs. The French and Spanish tended more to long distance duels and were using chain shot more often.
Durallan
10-05-2009, 13:34
while no CA rep has come out saying this is a bug, I get the feeling it is a bug because people complained about the chainshot battles in MP anyway so I would have thought they were going to be nerfed, I hardly use chainshot anyway these days just because I couldn't capture entire enemy fleets with it after 1.0 :P it has not lessened my enjoyment of naval battle, so if you are worried I would just not use it in that case, and if you are playing mp then would have to wait for a fix I suppose
From what's been said, it sounds like the problem is with the now overpowered chainshot rather than the (I agree, ridiculous) "balancing" of smaller ships to make them more effective. Is that right?
A couple of other questions:
(1) Does the AI use chainshot? (if it doesn't, the player can also just abstain)
(2) How common was chainshot used historically? My impression is that at battles like Trafalgar, ships were mainly just firing normal shot, but maybe I am wrong.
The AI does use chainshot. I think, the problem is not so much in its power but in the fact that the chainshot in 1.4 has 100 more range than the round-shot. Before 1.4, the roundshot had 100 more range than the chainshot. The longer distance + the fact that sloops, brigs and frigates now have the "good accuracy" renders SOL ship types useless.
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