Crazy legislation.

[Tribesman]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i4PSarfGJNWRZRC0OWFn9f0dF59wD9B18F0O0
Though I am sure there will be some of the usual suspects who think that guns in pubs is a good idea.

[Hooahguy]

guns + drunk = a huge mess

[Rhyfelwyr]

Oh dear... :dizzy2:

[Lemur]

I don't have a problem with people getting drunk while armed, just so long as we make sure none of them have ever attended a firearm safety course. Gotta keep the playing field even.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

So other states allow it, has there been a significant uptick in murder? I'm sure it sounds like a bad idea, but we need actual evidence.

[Vladimir]

An 8 1/2-by-11-inch sign that says "No Firearms Allowed" and shows a red slash over a gun now hangs next to Henrich's liquor license. If a bar owner does not post such a state-approved sign, people with concealed weapons are allowed in with their guns.

Problem fixed. Next please.

[Ice]

Problem fixed. Next please.


But the law includes a partial legal defense. A person would be exempt if the sign banning guns had fallen down, the person wasn't an Arizona resident, or the notice was first posted less than a month earlier.

Problem not fixed. Firearms have no place in bars legally or illegally.

[Samurai Waki]

People who are afraid of being shot have no place in a bar.

[Crazed Rabbit]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i4PSarfGJNWRZRC0OWFn9f0dF59wD9B18F0O0
Though I am sure there will be some of the usual suspects who think that guns in pubs is a good idea.

I think it's a great idea.

Some things to point out;

drinking while carrying a gun is not allowed.

This isn't a new thing; this is the 41st state, of 50, to allow this.


If there was a danger from this, then opponents could point to some data that showed an increase in shootings after such a law was passed. But they can't, because there isn't any. I've never been a fan of laws based off of assumptions, either.

The end result is now people can better defend themselves in more places, and there's no statistical evidence of an increase in crime from the other states that have allowed this.

CR

[Lemur]

Forty other states allow firearms in bars? Linky, please?

[Crazed Rabbit]

From the article:

A similar law took effect in July in Tennessee, with the same reaction from many bar owners who posted signs banning firearms. The NRA says 41 states now allow guns in businesses that serve alcohol.

So it may not be just bars, just businesses that serve alcohol, like restaurants included in that as well.

CR

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Or it might be businesses that serve alcohol but not bars...

[rvg]

here: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i4PSarfGJNWRZRC0OWFn9f0dF59wD9B18F0O0

"The NRA says 41 states now allow guns in businesses that serve alcohol."

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Or it might be businesses that serve alcohol but not bars...

What is a bar but a business that serves alcohol? :inquisitive:

[rvg]

Or it might be businesses that serve alcohol but not bars...

Now that would not be very logical.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What is a bar but a business that serves alcohol? :inquisitive:

They allow them in restaurants that serve alcohol, but not bars.

Mr. Smith has posted the results of his legal team’s research on his Web site, beneath this statement: “The claim that ‘40′ states have ’similar laws’ to Tennessee’s new guns-in-bars law is false and misleading.” In fact, Mr. Smith writes, “because bars, saloons, nightclubs and restaurants with bar areas are notorious for fights, assaults and breaches of the peace, carrying loaded guns is expressly prohibited by law in bars, nightclubs or bar areas serving alcohol in 24 states [23 now that AZ changed its law].”

After reviewing state gun laws in detail, Mr. Smith concluded: “No state, by statute or regulation, expressly allowed firearms to be brought into bars until the Tennessee legislature passed” the new law. Mr. Smith told The Lede. “No state has ever said, ‘we want you to bring a gun into where real drinking is happening.’ ”

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/23/two-states-legalize-guns-in-bars/

[Lemur]

They allow them in restaurants that serve alcohol, but not bars.
Ah, that makes more sense. Even the Saxons knew enough to leave their swords at the door of the hall when feasting and drinking.

[Crazed Rabbit]

In Washington state, you can take a concealed gun into a restaurant that serves alcohol, but not into an area reserved for people 21 or older. So, as an example, I could legally drink a beer on one square foot of the bowling alley, but if I stepped into the bar area of the bowling alley I'd be breaking the law.

Note that this is an example; I haven't tried this, and I can't find any law in Washington against drinking while carrying.

However, there are states that specifically allow carrying in bars.

CR

[Tribesman]

Since people carrying guns cannot be served alcohol and this law applies to concealed weapons it means to comply with the law the bar staff must establish that any customer who wants alcohol does not have a concealed weapon about their person.
Does it also mean that bar staff have the right to search any customer who doesn't buy alcohol just to check that if they are indeed carrying a gun and then ensure that the person is in possesion of a valid permit.

[Gregoshi]

I was wondering the same thing Tribesman.

Though I'm sure that "no guns" sign posted in the bars will do the trick.

[Tribesman]

I was wondering the same thing Tribesman.

Yep its a silly unworkable law.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Since people carrying guns cannot be served alcohol and this law applies to concealed weapons it means to comply with the law the bar staff must establish that any customer who wants alcohol does not have a concealed weapon about their person.
Does it also mean that bar staff have the right to search any customer who doesn't buy alcohol just to check that if they are indeed carrying a gun and then ensure that the person is in possesion of a valid permit.

Really? The law establishes that the bar must ascertain people they're serving are not carrying?

Perhaps you can point out where in the law it says that. Or maybe this is just more of your legendary obtuseness.

CR

[Gregoshi]

CR, if a bar does not wish to serve those carrying concealed weapons, how are they to determine a patron does not have a concealed weapon? If they are not allowed such a search each patron, then the "no guns allowed" part of the law is unenforceable and therefore just lip service to those who opposed the law.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Not any more unenforceable than the present law. People in that situation (edit: that is, under the new law that allows carry in bars), carrying in a bar that doesn't allow it, would be breaking the law.

I'm pretty sure that there are some people who already carry, illegally, in bars. And they couldn't be easily caught unless bars searched everyone. So it's a problem, but not a new one.

CR

[Tribesman]

Really? The law establishes that the bar must ascertain people they're serving are not carrying?

Yes, thats standard law for licenced premises, the staff can only sell to people who are legally allowed to buy, the responsibility for compliance lies solely with the staff.
So for the staff to be able to ensure that only legally permitted guns are on the premesis they require up to date access to State records to check the customers gun permits are valid. Since that isn't going to happen the legislation is nonsense and unworkable


So it's a problem, but not a new one.

So the current law doesn't work but if they add another more complicated law that also doesn't work you are in favour of it.
Yeah that makes sense.:dizzy2:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yes, thats standard law for licenced premises, the staff can only sell to people who are legally allowed to buy, the responsibility for compliance lies solely with the staff.
So for the staff to be able to ensure that only legally permitted guns are on the premesis they require up to date access to State records to check the customers gun permits are valid. Since that isn't going to happen the legislation is nonsense and unworkable

Ah, I see. You're assuming. Glad we got that in the open. Poorly, at that. Do you think bars have access to a state drivers license database when they check the age of people? Why don't you come back with info about this particular law?


So the current law doesn't work but if they add another more complicated law that also doesn't work you are in favour of it.
Yeah that makes sense.:dizzy2:

The current law doesn't work because people may break it? Right....

In other news, fireworks are still illegal in Arizona. :dizzy2:

CR

[Tribesman]

Ah, I see. You're assuming.
No its a very standard set of laws for licenced premiesis.
If you want Arizonas specifics its all in title 4 which is under the dept of liquor licences and control. But it doesn't differ much in any state, or in most countries for that matter.


Glad we got that in the open. Poorly, at that.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
You really should think before you write.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I, obviously, have no problem with this. People who are drinking and carrying a firearm should be scourged, but If I am in a bar I would bring a gun (because I don't drink). Why shouldn't we have one if we arn't drinking?

[Tribesman]

People who are drinking and carrying a firearm should be scourged
Why? guns don't kill people, people kill people.
If they didn't have a gun they could use a knife or a glass which makes taking their guns away a waste of time.
People have the constitutional right to bear arms in bars, after all the constitution doesn't say they can't does it.

[Major Robert Dump]

States that allow guns pretty much always allow guns in establishments that serve alcohol, considering that most establishments serve alcohol. The difference between a bar vs an establishment that serves alcohol comes down to a state by state definition of establishment alcohol sales vs overall sales, the percentage usually being somewhere between 35-50%. So yes, I can still pack when I go eat a steak at the Outback or Quaker Steak and Lube or AppleBees, but not when I go binge drink at Joe's tavern whose only non-alcholoic menu item is cheese fries.

[KukriKhan]

I wonder which strict-constitutionalist saloon owner in Arizona will be the first to post a "FIREARMS ALLOWED" sign.

[Gregoshi]

Why? guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Therefore we must make sure only the guns are loaded...

[drone]

Therefore we must make sure only the guns are loaded...

:bow: Thread won.