I have truly had enough [Archive]

Fragony

10-07-2009, 09:48

with leftist idiocy. Say, you have group of youths from north african origin who should be little more than a nuissance burning police-vehicles what do you do? Well taking them on holiday to the Costa Bravo, naturally. This isn't the first time , in Amsterdam there was also a group being a nuissance, you would expect the city counsil would send more police, but somewhere, somehow, someone thought it would make much more sense to send them on a trip to Marroco to catch butterflies. And so they went.

STOP SEEING MY COUNTRY AS AN EXPERIMENT

seriously, how egocentric can you be to care more about your ideals than about people. It's the most disgusting egoism there is they feed on their self-rightiousness they are vampires.

edit, no that isn't the only thing, this turkish pimp with a taste for burning flesh was allowed to go on leave to see what one of his victims hatched, but he had to promise to be nice boy and report daily. So he is now in Turke with the million of cash he made, he didn't report wtf.

Subotan

10-07-2009, 10:29

lol wut

Hax

10-07-2009, 10:36

Another Frag-rant about how the leftist elitist pigs screw up our glorious country.

Fragony

10-07-2009, 10:39

browser is acting funny I am not. Those wanting to run society can't run society because they don't understand society. Mr Wilders is 100% correct, sadly. There are two netherlands, one has rules and the other has rights, I will never accept that. That social contract, I never signed it. You won't, and even if you wanted you could't. Too leftist to be able to handle what is real.

Subotan

10-07-2009, 10:43

Those wanting to run society can't run society because they don't understand society.

So you do?

That social contract, I never signed it. You won't, and even if you wanted you could't. Too leftist to be able to handle what is real.

Incorrect. You signed it by default by being born in the Netherlands, as you are a citizen of that country. Whilst a citizen, you agree to abide by the laws of that state, unless you renounce your citizenship and go live somewhere else, and become a member of a different society.

Fragony

10-07-2009, 10:47

am i sending criminals to Marocco to catch butterflies? of course I understand society better I live there

owwwwwwwwwwwww haxie I know that school 30.000 euro a year rite, for a vwo rating, which is extremely easy if you aren't a retard

sigh, I have to pay even more taxes this year. The royal family get even more. more money to africa, more money to give immigrants houses while dutch people get knocked back on the waiting for something as basic as a roof. no handouts for us we get to pay for leftist hobby's, their ideals gah just die if it isn't for me do it to reduce your carbon footprint, that other hobby i have bleed for.

Tribesman

10-07-2009, 11:27

browser is acting funny I am not.
That would be a first.:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
topic: immigrants/muslims/multicutchie..... probability of a pile of fabricated bull being delivered by frag....100%.
The probability of him repeating the same bull again in a short time ...100%

Fragony

10-07-2009, 11:54

yaya, adrian can comfirm, or see for yourselve. At the bright side, you don't believe me which must mean that you are just as amazed as I am that criminals are send to marrocco to catch butterlies, kinda silly no

edit, or the costa brava in this case . they burn your policecar and you treat them on a free holiday to spain how leftist can a person possibly be, the inmates are running the asylum alright

Husar

10-07-2009, 12:27

Weeell, sometimes you do wonder how someone who lives in a government-sponsored container house can afford an expensive Mercedes. Or in other words why the government sponsors a container house for someone who is driving around in an expensive Mercedes? In some cases it's just fraud of course, they caught people who were registered for social services at several different places. In other cases I have no idea, for example why are there homeless people here when I thought everyone would at least get some social whatever and money for a cheap roof over their head? Maybe they're just spending it all on alcohol or maybe "the system" is harsher to some than it is to others, just saying that Fragony may have a point, dealing with the government is mostly a mystery to me and the Netherlands may be different from Germany, they speak another language as well. :sweatdrop:

Tellos Athenaios

10-07-2009, 12:30

Unless I am very much mistaken the butterflies refers to 2007 news (I had to do a quick google to get that bit) which has in turn little to do with criminals since it concerns students at a highschool as part of extra activities presumably related to the highschool curriculum: some kind of weird education project. That's peanuts. If you want to complain about that, why don't you go to the faaar more expensive of the frequent reshuffling of education 'cause the MP-of-the-day decides that it really is all wrong? We're talking a few billions over 10 years there.

About ideals. Are you complaining that some people in office stand by their political ideals?

About Mr Wilders being ‘right’; that is debatable.

About this: http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/Politiek/247708/Verbazing-over-vakantie-politie-en-Marokkaanse-jongeren.htm?rss=true. But even the Elsevier concedes that it apparently _did_ work for what that's worth. We shall see; I doubt it'll be the norm anytime soon. Secretly, I am just waiting for moment the story comes out of some ‘white trash’ equivalent...

Mind you; I do not hold the Elsevier in very high regard; if anything they have an as obvious bias as the Daily Telegraph has and little imagination to boot; the Telegraaf can hardly be considered a newspaper, more of a Sun (which it pretty much aspires to be in any case) if you ask me. It is only a matter of time before they feature “page 3 girls”...

... But I did not hear you, Fragony, of the latest bar fight some PVV politician was involved in? Incidentally, wasn't the PVV basically that random sample of people fund raisers picked up by Mr Wilders to be some kind of political ensemble?

Fragony

10-07-2009, 12:54

should I have an opinion on a barfight? I have one he should get the boot, but if you want to use that in a way to expose any hypocracy, not only is it going to convince anybody, it makes those trying to milk it look all the more desperate, and rather hypocrite, and you know why if you don't, well that is why you lose. c'est ca.

and I will just wait for tribes to try to make the most out of butterflies before fllees to another thread to cast bollox. Just because I care doesn't mean your opinions are of any consequence.

Tellos Athenaios

10-07-2009, 13:12

Nope, but since you ask:

This bar fight hints at what is at best a very lackadaisical approach to staff screening. For public office. Let's just leave it at the note that what you complain about in your edit is no worse a mistake than that (although the consequences are certainly worse); and what you complain about before the edit may not even be a mistake sensu strictu. (After all, we do not know whether or not that works out yet.)

And I am not here to show you are a hypocrite. I am merely dis-agreeing with the somewhat polemical (it's been called rant by Tribesman; and he's got a point there) tone of your post; as well as the fact that you choose to pick a few disconnected dots (possibly mis-interpreted dots at that; also note that the Elsevier article says it is not yet clear whether or not tax money was spent at all) to make some kind of incoherent story that somehow magically supports a pre-determined conclusion of ‘leftist idiocy’.

A more thorough debunk of your post would probably ask why you choose to call things leftist when none of those stories you appear to refer to feature a left-wing political campaign or policy? Progressive, perhaps; that isn't the same as leftist (SP is rather conservative for example; and much more aligned with PVV than say CU).

Subotan

10-07-2009, 13:23

am i sending criminals to Marocco to catch butterflies? of course I understand society better I live there

First of all: What the Hell does butterflies have to do with my original point (Why do you understand society, but the government/sociologists don't?), and the government and sociologists both live in the Netherlands as well.

sigh, I have to pay even more taxes this year. The royal family get even more..

Same in the UK. It sucks :(

more money to africa
Whats' wrong with money to Africa?

more money to give immigrants houses while dutch people get knocked back on the waiting for something as basic as a roof.
I doubt that somewhat. In the UK at least, most of those cases are either bogus or exceptional (E.g. Afghan Widow with eight kids).

no handouts for us we get to pay for leftist hobby's, their ideals gah just die if it isn't for me do it to reduce your carbon footprint, that other hobby i have bleed for.
Since when did humanitarianism become a hobby? Was it the day Europe become Xenophobic?

their ideals gah just die if it isn't for me do it to reduce your carbon footprint, that other hobby i have bleed for.
So stupid, I'm not going to bother replying to this.

Fragony

10-07-2009, 13:30

oh common do I have to start about drunk politicians and journalists rubbing up, are you really sure you want to. Sorry, can't trap the PVV, quite the opposite the willingness with which they dive in just every trap that is set only emphasises my claim that the left no longer understands society.

@subatan, I understand society better because I don't think a free holiday catching butterflies would be the eye-opener the socioloco's expected it to be, does that make me strange?

CountArach

10-07-2009, 13:47

I demand that Adrian sheds light on this!

The Stranger

10-07-2009, 13:59

Subotan

10-07-2009, 14:15

@subotan, I understand society better because I don't think a free holiday catching butterflies would be the eye-opener the socioloco's expected it to be, does that make me strange?

First of all, can you provide some (Preferably English) sources that that even happened, and second, I'm sure it's not Dutsch policy to pack every single prisoner off to Morrocco with a butterfly net. If it did happen, it was probably an experiment.

Fragony

10-07-2009, 14:30

an experiment yeah, you never know the outcome and if it turns out overly fascinating you can always become a major in insignificant

Husar

10-07-2009, 14:42

I support Sartre. If you have a problem with it, do something about it. Instead of ranting and raving and pointing fingers. Instead of voting every four years, screw the vote and change the people that are governed, not the governers. In order for a country to change the people have to change, democratic politics is powerless. They can't rule, they only govern, and in Holland they only compromise.

Well, ranting about it is an attempt to change the people, isn't it?
With your rant you try to get attention and convince people that something needs to be done. Those convinced would ideally spread the message, you can't discuss this one-on-one with several million other people. You however sound like you are not going to spread Fragony's message and are thus passively undermining his effort, yet accuse him of not doing enough, pure hypocrisy. :mellow:

The Stranger

10-07-2009, 14:56

Well, ranting about it is an attempt to change the people, isn't it?
With your rant you try to get attention and convince people that something needs to be done. Those convinced would ideally spread the message, you can't discuss this one-on-one with several million other people. You however sound like you are not going to spread Fragony's message and are thus passively undermining his effort, yet accuse him of not doing enough, pure hypocrisy. :mellow:

that is very true. But in your rant you mustnt place the fault solely in other people. I dont agree with frag entirely (maybe largely), but that doesnt mean I'm not helping in the process. Im also spreading a message. Not only, im trying to put the message in to practise.

Strike For The South

10-07-2009, 15:26

See kids, This is what happens when you have SOCIALISM!

Fragony

10-07-2009, 15:28

You are making the classical leftist mistake Tribesy, you can't make a difference between what you want and what is.

Ser Clegane

10-07-2009, 15:30

I would highly appreciate if this thread stayed civil.

I think the discussion of the pros and cons of alternative ways to handle juvenile offenders deserves a bit more than flaming other patrons.

Thanks

Husar

10-07-2009, 17:29

that is very true. But in your rant you mustnt place the fault solely in other people. I dont agree with frag entirely (maybe largely), but that doesnt mean I'm not helping in the process. Im also spreading a message. Not only, im trying to put the message in to practise.
Yes, true, but what if it's really just other people who are to blame? You cannot blame society at large for every mistake the government makes, once they have been voted in they can do things or not do things without the approval of society at large.

See kids, This is what happens when you have SOCIALISM!
No, what we see here is what happens when you have a lack of socialism, in socialism the roofs would be spread equally to all people in need of one and there would be noone left out.
The whole thing about sending them on holiday instead of jailing them is hardly a socialist issue and sounds rather untrue to me anyway. I have however heard of areas in cities that the police don't or don't like to patrol because they're so dangerous, that can happen in a lot of countries and should IMO be countered by highly increased police activity, or just build a wall around it like some do. :sweatdrop:

The Stranger

10-07-2009, 18:40

Yes, true, but what if it's really just other people who are to blame? You cannot blame society at large for every mistake the government makes, once they have been voted in they can do things or not do things without the approval of society at large.

No, what we see here is what happens when you have a lack of socialism, in socialism the roofs would be spread equally to all people in need of one and there would be noone left out.
The whole thing about sending them on holiday instead of jailing them is hardly a socialist issue and sounds rather untrue to me anyway. I have however heard of areas in cities that the police don't or don't like to patrol because they're so dangerous, that can happen in a lot of countries and should IMO be countered by highly increased police activity, or just build a wall around it like some do. :sweatdrop:

they cannot DIRECTLY be held responsible for what the goverment does, but they ARE INDIRECTLY responsible for what the government does, simply because the goverment can only remain in practise as long as the people allow it.

Samurai Waki

10-07-2009, 18:45

Well, Frag, if you're tired of the ultra liberal whack jobs in the Netherlands, you can live in the US (preferably Texas) and experience all the Conservative whack jobs you can handle.

Subotan

10-07-2009, 20:29

an experiment yeah, you never know the outcome and if it turns out overly fascinating you can always become a major in insigificunt

Oh how ridiculous of me to think that political decisions should be based upon evidence.
Also, you haven't produced any sources for this butterfly thing.

Kralizec

10-07-2009, 20:51

If the trip to Spain with those Maroccan kids was funded with tax money (I fear it was) that's outrageous. On a rather small scale.

The thing with the Turkish human trafficker was a massive :daisy:-up, mostly the public ministry's fault though from what I understand instead of the judges involved. They've got some serious house-cleaning to do, but I'm cynical enough to believe that these sort of :daisy:-ups will happen regardless of wich country or year you live in.
So meh.

Mind you; I do not hold the Elsevier in very high regard

It's an editorial magazine afterall, admittedly with a largely right-wing slant. Except one or two writers who I'm pretty sure are insane it's pretty decent.

Husar

10-07-2009, 20:53

they cannot DIRECTLY be held responsible for what the goverment does, but they ARE INDIRECTLY responsible for what the government does, simply because the goverment can only remain in practise as long as the people allow it.
No, elections are held every four years and not whenever the people don't want the government anymore. :sweatdrop:

Fragony

10-07-2009, 20:57

I am not allowed to post non-english sources, you will just have to take my word for it, or interpret the silence.

edit, @subutan soz posting on consolo the labbie died

Tribesman

10-07-2009, 21:19

you will just have to take my word for it
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::lau gh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: :laugh4::laugh4:
I wonder where that foriegn story you posted about the evil immigrant stealing a playstation in a burglary and robbing the poor dutch fell is?
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Kralizec

10-07-2009, 21:22

I translated the Dutch article that Tellos Athenaios linked to for the Dutch-impaired among us.

Astonishment over vacation of policemen and Maroccan youths

wednesday, 7 october 2009 07:55

The VVD and the PVV want an explanation for a trip to Spain taken by a police officer, a "youth cop" and some 'troublesome' Maroccan youths from Tegelen, Limburg. According to a cop the police went to Spain to get to know the youths on a different level.

The VVD and PVV wonder if any tax money was used for the trip to Costa Brava, reports the local newspaper De Limburger.

Personal relation
They've questioned minister Eberhard van der Laan about the issue (PvdA, Integration)

According to the police the trip was a success: crime is down in Tegelen. Additionally a "personal relationship" has been established with police officers.

Vandalism
"We weren't there as cops, but as human beings. You get to know eachother on a different level. It worked wonderfully." said one of the cops earlier in De Limburger.

The Maroccan youths in question caused a lot of nuisance and trashed police cars.

As of yet it's still unclear how many youths went on the trip and how long it took.

I'm wondering:
1) if it's generally not more cost-effective to arrest people, if you know that they cause nuisance and destroy police property
2) if crime was also low in the period after the youths returned from their trip

Fragony

10-07-2009, 21:33

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::lau gh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: :laugh4::laugh4:
I wonder where that foriegn story you posted about the evil immigrant stealing a playstation in a burglary and robbing the poor dutch fell is?
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

what are you talking about and why isn't it on the list I still did not get. And are you actually having a good time when you laugh, comes across as not even nearly happypaddie

Fragony

10-07-2009, 22:11

I translated the Dutch article that Tellos Athenaios linked to for the Dutch-impaired among us.

I'm wondering:
1) if it's generally not more cost-effective to arrest people, if you know that they cause nuisance and destroy police property
2) if crime was also low in the period after the youths returned from their trip

good translation. You non-dutch should know that these people really are in charge we absolutely rock despite them.

Tribesman

10-07-2009, 22:28

Samurai Waki

10-07-2009, 22:35

what are you talking about and why isn't it on the list I still did not get. And are you actually having a good time when you laugh, comes across as not even nearly happypaddie

He's not laughing at you. Oh wait, yeah he is.

Move along :bobby2:

Beskar

10-07-2009, 22:45

I heard Denmark has a very effective justice system and very low re-offending rate.

Apparently, they have special towns/ghettos for inmates or something, with the idea of putting them in a high security but "normal" living environment opposed to a cage.

Anyone with more information or any idea what I am on about, please speak up.

Megas Methuselah

10-07-2009, 23:21

See kids, This is what happens when you have SOCIALISM!

I know, isn't it great?! :yes::yes::yes:

A Very Super Market

10-07-2009, 23:51

Beskar

10-07-2009, 23:56

Taken from http://penal-system.suite101.com/article.cfm/denmarks_prison_system

Prison is a last Resort in Denmark

The Danish justice system is based on rehabilitation rather than punishment. Writing in The New Statesman (September 4, 2006) Nick Pearce reported that Denmark “does all it can to keep people out of jail, and once there, to prepare them for life back in the community. Its sentences are short, but its re-offending rates far lower. In Denmark, prison appears to work for the right reasons.”

In his 2005 book, “Prisons and Prison Systems,” Michael P. Roth writes that Denmark’s modern penal code can be traced back to 1930, when corporal and capital punishment were abolished, as well imprisonment at hard labour.”

The average Danish prison sentence is just 6.2 months, with just two percent of Danish prisoners spending more than two years in jail.
Life in Ringe State Prison

On an island called Funen in the central part of Denmark is the Ringe State Prison. This is where Danes who have committed serious crimes such as murder and armed robbery are sent.”

In a monograph “After Prison: The Case for Offender Reintegration” published online by the Institute for Security Studies, Ringe is described as having “as its first priority the preparation of inmates to live as normal members of society after their release. There are no bars or armoured glass, although it is a closed maximum security prison surrounded by an inconspicuous enclosing wall and equipped with a sophisticated video surveillance system.”

Nick Pearce, who visited the prison, wrote that, “Prisoners live in small units with communal kitchens…Ringe is a mixed-sex prison and married couples live in a special wing. Children can live with their parents in prison until the age of three. Sex between inmates is permitted if wardens are convinced that the relationship is serious.”
Does Denmark’s Justice System Work?

The hardliners of the lock-‘em-up-and-throw-away-the-key school scoff at Denmark’s lenient approach to criminal justice. However, it seems to work. On July 2, 2003 Dan Damon reported for BBC News that, “While 55 percent of British prisoners will re-offend and come back to jail, in Denmark the re-offending rate is just 27 percent.”

In my opinion, this is a left-wing Socialist style Prison system. However, in this theory and what I hear, it doesn't sound bad.

Fragony

10-08-2009, 06:57

So the spain trip is just a typical community relations exercise with young delinquents that is used commonly in the western world and has been for decades.
Not surprising that frag is having a fit over it, what a non-story :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Edited out the part where you "technically" refrained from calling someone a liar after being warned not to do so. You really ought to get a foreign ministry job, Tribes, you have too much fun parsing language to a fair-the-well. SF

being treated on a trip to the costa brava for burning police-cars, yeah that is not idiotic. and where did I lie, first it is a lie and when it, as always, true, it's a non-story. our parlement doesn't think it is, and so do I. Stop lying about me lying, prove me wrong instead, or pay me that visit you promised me years ago, gave you my adress but you never showed up, all talk.