Barbarian medicinal prowess

[HopliteElite]

During a recent stint as the Aedui I was amazed when I had a general who had a a druidic surgeon, an herbalist, a wise-women, AND a trait all of which added to his casualty recovery rate. Needless to say, I was perplexed, since my beloved Greek generals can only have one casualty recovery rate member of their retinues and in my years of playing EB, have never received a trait which adds to casualty recovery rate. My question is this: were the more "civilized" barbarians like the Aedui and Arverni just medicinal gurus or is this somehow an oversight?

[Brennus]

Certainly Celtic societies had a good grasp of medicine. Whether or not Celtic medicine was superior to Hellenic is difficult to say as the Celtic theory of medicine was largely unrecorded although the contemporary Greek theory of the four humours was flawed itself. I do know that the Celts invented soap and had a strong personal hygiene tradition (amongst other things) and there are theories woad was used for its antiseptic qualities. You were also more likely to survive in Celtic society if you had a physical or mental disability as historical Brythonic texts show that society had laws designed to care for the physically and mentally disabled, whilst in Romano-Greek society your chances were minimal and none-existent if you were born with such problems.

[kekailoa]

Druidic medicine was also known as one of the best in the ancient western world. There is evidence in skeletons found in Britain of Celtic-era men receiving brain surgery and surviving! The skeleton was found with a hole in his head, and further bone growth over it, showing the body had time to recover from the surgery.

The excellent knowledge of herbs and natural medicines was also attributed to the Celtic and Germanic religious leaders, and there are instances (I can't give a source right this instance, but will later) where Celtic midwives were hired by the Roman aristocracy to attend to Roman births.

[ARCHIPPOS]

There is evidence in skeletons found in Britain of Celtic-era men receiving brain surgery and surviving! The skeleton was found with a hole in his head, and further bone growth over it, showing the body had time to recover from the surgery.


i remember Aegyptians practiced trepanation and also some South American natives... but did such operations offer even some vague hope of recovery or were purely ritual-oriented procedures ???

[Macilrille]

Guys... I am going to have to be my usual arrogant self and ask you to come up with sources for all these claims or not be taken seriously. There is so much Celtophilia arouns with loads of New Age dreamers fantasising about how great Celtic culture was while listening to Enya that it is a bit like an intoxication they confirm and enforce each-others' fantasies with no real sources except each-others' fantasies. Like all other I-Net hysteria/filia/hype I cannot take it seriously and it contaminates serious discussion with its myths, so please quote sources or accept my extreme scepticism about what we actually know about Celtic medicine.

Thank you.

[Power2the1]

Oh ye of little faith lol...

According to the article A Regional Examination of Surgery and Fracture Treatment in Iron Age and Roman Britain,


"The presence of well-healed high-risk fractures that have a high risk of nerve damage or nonunion as well as less complicated fractures (e.g. to the metacarpals), suggests that practitioners were able to effectively cope with a wide range of traumas. Furthermore, the lack of non-union for all but one fracture (to the olecranon) and well healed calluses demonstrates that when people sustained their injuries, they were adequately nourished, could rest to ensure successful fracture union, and that their treatment may have included rehabilitation exercises to maximize joint function. The good apposition of all but one fracture indicates that both stable and unstable fracture types were reduced and splinted. The type of splints used in the Iron Age is unknown but they may have been made from vegetable string, sinew, bark, sticks, animal skins or clay. The humeral fractures observed in two males and one female demonstrate that practitioners were aware that these fractures required reduction and support, and had the knowledge to intervene in severe traumas. The same is also true of the unstable contre-coup fractures observed in one female, whose highly successful treatment is in marked contrast to the later examples in Romano-British males. The bioarchaeological evidence demonstrates that it is no longer tenable to regard Iron Age communities as lacking in sophisticated medical knowledge, as people with potentially debilitating
traumas were successfully treated. Taken in conjunction with the archaeological evidence for the use of pharmaceutical plants and surgical instruments at Hengistbury Head (Dorset) and Stanway (Essex), this study illustrates how bioarchaeological data can be used to independently explore medical systems in periods lacking written or pictorial evidence."

Almost seems as if the Romano-British went into a decline medicinally or something...


The first recorded use of trephening of Celtic origin comes from the Irish. in A.D. 637, an Irish chief named Cennfaelad underwent the process after a battle whee he received a head wound. He had the injured areas of his head, and reportedly, a small part of his brain removed. Later, after he'd recovered, its written that his wits were sharp as ever - even became a great scholar and author in later age.

https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/Power2the1/GEDC4758.jpg

Iron surgical instruments
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/Power2the1/Ironsurgicalinstrumentsfromthetomba.jpg
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/Power2the1/Ironweaponsandsurgicaltoolsfromtomb.jpg

Bronze surgical probes
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/Power2the1/BronzesurgicalprobesfromLateHallsta.jpg

Bronze surgical instruments from Batina
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/Power2the1/BronzesurgicalinstrumentsfromBatina.jpg

[Kevin]

I did hear that the Celts were able to perform successful brain surgery and that the arverni/aedui created soap

Daniel Hale Williams performed the first open heart surgery though in 1856. That's even more amazing!:2thumbsup:

[kekailoa]

Guys... I am going to have to be my usual arrogant self and ask you to come up with sources for all these claims or not be taken seriously. There is so much Celtophilia arouns with loads of New Age dreamers fantasising about how great Celtic culture was while listening to Enya that it is a bit like an intoxication they confirm and enforce each-others' fantasies with no real sources except each-others' fantasies. Like all other I-Net hysteria/filia/hype I cannot take it seriously and it contaminates serious discussion with its myths, so please quote sources or accept my extreme scepticism about what we actually know about Celtic medicine.

Thank you.

Read Power2the1's post about brain surgery. (I was wrong about it being Britain, but close enough :sweatdrop:)

And for the celtic midwife story, I am still trying to find that source. I do remember, though, that there was a special cult for the worship of Aveta, the Brythonic and Gallic goddess of birth and midwaves, showing at least some emphasis on birth medicine.

[Brennus]

My source was Terry Jones in his program about barbarians, however as a Celtic archaeologist i live in a room with enough literature to hand that i should be able to come up with some proper references.

[Phalanx300]

From what I've hearded the Celts were very advanced with their medication.

But on the soap, wasn't that the Germanics? Or both? :inquisitive: I've read that the Germanics did care about hycene but who invented the soap, not so sure anymore now. :skull:

[Brennus]

That's true about the Germans, Tacitus in Germania does note the German habit of washing each morning with warm water. I would give the reference but much to my annoyance I appear to have lost my copy of Tacitus.

[Cute Wolf]

Yeah, if I was right, getting a doctor's service in Hellenic / Roman land need money, and you must be able to pay, and they didn't have any social donation for them, compare that with Druids and Witch-doctors that receive most patients with no payments, just for free (but I'm certain my Celtic / Germanic generals will pay), It looks like they are socialist community.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Then at least in Hellenistic times you would've been quite wrong: you could go to an Aisklepion and similar holy sites dedicated to medicine -- and even in Celtic society quality private health care would've cost you a small fortune.

Doctors in Greek society at least were considered among the ‘craftsmen’ and I'd expect them to receive ditto pay. Most of what they did would -I expect- have been roughly equivalent to dietitian/physiologist/dentist/general practitioner; some would probably have been specialized in certain fields to find themselves a niche.

As for the Celtic welfare system; it is not unique. In fact it is fairly typical of small tribal societies; and the system probably varied between tribes anyways. Rhodos for instance had one too -- and such systems come up in political thought quite often: the ideal society of course would find people contributing according to their abilities and receiving according to their needs.

[Captain Pugwash]

The issue is whether with one or four 'medical' ancillaries do they do anything extra that a straight forward herbalist/doctor cannot do. If x% of troops recover regardless then they are irrelevent and the slot could be filled with something more worthwhile. Either that or change what they give say influence/city health bonus.

If EB2 is being re tweeked then maybe some proper ancillaries could be added for the Barbs which seem pretty limited compared to the other factions

[moonburn]

the reports of removing splintered skull bones are nothing new

the incas besides being able to shape skulls also had a kind of know how to remove splinted skull bones

even today in africa there are society´s who make those operations based on the principle that the "bad spirits" need to be removed (when someone as a mental illness they pierce the skull to remove the bad wind´s spirits or whatever)
(i learned this in a documentary about pain and how diferent people and diferent societies adress them since those african society´s have no anesthetics while the theory for the incas defend they used coca plants)

as for celtic society organisation i think we can all agree it´s something beteween the original comunitarism (do not confuse with nowadas comunism) of ancient societies and the civilization where you have a strict law saying whats your obligations and duty´s and what you shall receive in return (and civilization means you either have the coin or you will die since it´s a pre wellfare system )

what i do find most amazing is ozzie the iron age frozen man found in the alps who as evidences of reumatism treatments using hot iron´s on the joints wich ofc is for me far more amazing then the use of plants and herbs to treat some illness since the native americans and almost all others groups in the world catched up to fairly easy (he also had herbs from northern italy that is suspected of being for medicinal use but nothing as been proven yet i think)

those reumatism treatments using hot irons only as similarities with some tibetan tribes so not all humans knew hot to adress that problem efectively (or at least other cultures found other solutions for these problems probably drugs to make the body numb instead of techniques to get the body fully functional)

just my 2 cents for the debate

as for fonts i have once again none but if you think i might be on to something www.google.com shouldn´t be so hard to use and you get the bonus of both correcting me and improving the knowledge of the rest of the comunity :sweatdrop:

[A Very Super Market]

Well, the fact that it apparently worked is tied to it existing. There would be no reason for them to continue holding these beliefs if all it resulted in was gangrene and death.

[Macilrille]

Ôtzi, not Ozzie if you will excuse my correction. I have seen him in Bolzano/Bozen, nice museum and his gear is terrific.

[Brennus]

Ôtzi isn't Iron Age he is Neolithic

[Macilrille]

Indeed, I think the guy did mention that somewhere in his post though, it seems to span a lot of cultures.

Ôtzi still has some cool gear.

[athanaric]

As a matter of fact, it's Ötzi, with German/Swedish/Turkish "ö"...

[Macilrille]

Yeps, notice my keyboard sometimes messing with me. I am danish, I read Swedish often.

[HopliteElite]

The issue is whether with one or four 'medical' ancillaries do they do anything extra that a straight forward herbalist/doctor cannot do.

Exactly. I have a general with 3 such ancillaries and I'm wondering if it makes a difference or does the best one just override the others? If so, I'm wasting two slots tha could better be spent on morale or public order ancillaries.

[Kikaz]

It looks like they are socialist community.
No, just charitable.. What you pointed out doesn't quite match the definition of socialism (regardless of whether or not it's true.)