How realistic are elephants going rampage all the time?

[ziegenpeter]

Good day fellow EB fans!
I was wondering how accurate it is that elephants are going rampage aproximatly once in 3 or 2 battles. I think they wouldnt be used that much if they were so unreliable. Or were they?
Is this feature hardcoded btw? Or is it possible to make it harder for them to go into berserk-mod?

[Zradha Pahlavan]

You mean 'running amok'? Depends on how badly wounded they get and how much fighting they're expected to do, and on whether or not getting them to 'run amok' would be either their commander's or the enemy commander's intention.

[anubis88]

Elephants were indeed very unpredictable... They were (like scythed chariots) a gamble on the battlefield. They could bring the decisive edge in a battle ( pyrhic war), or break one own's lines ( Zama, Magnesia(i think))

[satalexton]

...but when used properly, would sent the barbaroi fleeing in terror...pity Barbaropolis has stone walls and boiling oil....

[Cute Wolf]

Some good tactics to let your elephants still get their fair share of killing, while not going on mindless rampage:

1. If your enemy has a lot of missile troops / skirmishers, try to use your own missile troops to wear them out in prolonged missile duel. It looks like a hail of arrows hurt them more than swords or spears. After you wear out enemy missile troops, even if your own missile troops has higher casuality, then your elephants would be free from their primary bane... Especially true in EB since Elephants are really crack exspensive unit.

2. If your enemy has javelin precursors, don't let them throw it to your elephants. The best example is how to kill Assortment Roman Legionaries with just Misteret Ezrahim Tsorim and Elephants. Let your melee troops enggange them in melee first, and then use your elephants to hit their (the Romaioi's) back. It was guaranteed to cause instant rout, except for Triarii and Cohors Evocatae.

3. If your enemy has a 10 star general that was very annoying..... just use your elephant unit as torpedo directly to him..... BANG! and he will be trampled down, and their soldiers are instant rout.... but don't do this if that general in question..... sit behind a line of Phalangitai...

[Hax]

Don't let them fight on their own. Use them when flanking, like a "super cavalry".

[ziegenpeter]

Thanks guys! But its not that I have a problem using my Elephants :cool:.
Its just that I found it easy to check the AIs elephants.
Some archers & javelineers and the big boys are dead

[Cute Wolf]

Thanks guys! But its not that I have a problem using my Elephants :cool:.
Its just that I found it easy to check the AIs elephants.
Some archers & javelineers and the big boys are dead

Well, the common AI's idiocy is uncured..... If you found they are tough to bring down, there is a really rare occasion :laugh4: (put aside accidentally facing them with just hoplitai and cavalry in hands)

[Macilrille]

Don't let them fight on their own. Use them when flanking, like a "super cavalry".

That is what Pyhrrus did...

[Kevin]

Using elephants as flanking Calvary isn't a good idea because they end up running into your army...
As for elephants running amok, I've found that the be really annoying especially when the guy riding the elephant seems too relaxed

[The General]

Using elephants as flanking Calvary isn't a good idea because they end up running into your army...
As for elephants running amok, I've found that the be really annoying especially when the guy riding the elephant seems too relaxed

Uhm, what? Elephants most certainly excel as flankers, pin the enemy infantry with your equilevants and run the elephants through the enemy line for extra gore. They'll destroy enemy formations and cause a good bit of terror while at it. Combine with cavalry charges at critical points and voilà - a good old fashioned mass rout is what you should be witnessing.

What I certainly won't do with them is engage enemies in mêlée, but rather as hit-and-run bulldozers (as long as javelineers have been dealt with).

[Fluvius Camillus]

Umm how to correctly use elephants guide in a nutshell...

1. DANGER!

Dont have your elephants inside missile troops range, they can take some arrows or slings but dont let them have too much. For javelins, KEEP THEM AWAY, javelin volleys, just from simple akontistai are insta kills, if you ever have the nightmare to face Armoured elephants, javelin volleys can bring them down. If you own elephants however, the best way to evade is to shoot down or engage javelinmen with other troops before your elephants get close

2. Wheeling them around.

You can easily outflank the enemy with elephants even better when combined with cavalry. If the enemy has good charging cavalry, watch out! If the enemy does the radical move of a xyston/kontos charge, prepare to lose a few elephants when they are idle or weak. So if the enemy cav is idle you may want to charge them with your elephants and possibly finish them off completely with cavalry. JAVELIN SKIRMISH CAVALRY IS A NO GO! THEY WILL KILL YOUR ELEPHANTS. If the enemy however has flank, it usually consists of spear soldiers, luckily for you rarely makedonian phalanx. You can easily charge through a group of flank defenders, especially if they have no javelins. If even the mid line is not javelin and non sarissa, you can even try the more rash move of breaking the center (you better have strong elephants for this).

3. The battle deciding move!

Place your elephants behind the enemy line. Now hopefully the general is already dead, if not chase him or if he is fighting in front never mind. Now you have to unleash your all winning move! CHARGE! The elephants will charge in the back. Usually all but the elites rout, for elites, just withdraw and feel free to do this a couple of times while your cav and fast infantry hunt down the routers. Congrats you almost certainly won!

To counter criticism from the last steps.
a. Charging in the back is great. Your own troops wont die if they have not run amok. Elephants that are under control will simply stop to use their tusks to finish off the remaining troops and if they run through your troops will only be thrown in the air and will ALWAYS stand up again (if they are under control that is).
b. Yes elite phalanx might stand so GET OUT OF THEY TURN!

If they run amok you are clearly doing something wrong! I had literaly more than hundred of battles where I deployed elephants, I think I had around 2% of battles where they ran amok (serious battles that is, no test or careless custom battles and not the elephants vs flaming pigs soccer matches of RTW of course!:laugh4:)

I have a group of standard Indian elephants in my Baktrian campaign. The group consists of 18 men at recruitment, 6 elephant riders (mahouts for Carthies?), 12 archers. Now only the 6 riders (so 6 elephants, like at the start) are left, so no more archers. If elephants die they will have the archers die first, so even if you lose 3 men and elephants, the next battle you will only have 3 archers less. They went from their recruitment in India in 250 BCish, and now the 6 riders are in Korsim (Corsica) at 199BC. I used them quite a lot (however not too dangerous situations), but they crushed a real bunch of Yellow fever phalanxes from the back. Also they can of course help you open wooden gates, just watch out for towers and JAVELINS!

The whole guide can help you with chariots too in some length. Just keep in mind chariots are cheaper and thus weaker, dont make be too rash with linebreaking movements I just described with elephants. Also chariots are A LOT more vurnerable too archers and slings. They are however excellent router pursuers if you have nothing better to do for them, which elephants are not. But of course, the chariots are great main line breakers from the REAR.

Just keep one thing in mind, have them moving (chariots are A MUST to move), just let them saw and cut down everything, cavalry can go down fast this way if they keep cutting and riding!

Alright, that was not a nutshell, but I hope I helped people!

Have a good time!:beam:

~Fluvius

[king of thracia]

If the elephants aren't hurt by missiles they will rout the entire enemy army immediately by themselves. Just keep them smashing through enemy formations.

Elephants according to the Battle of Zama are hard to steer. And I imagine they are hard to control. I wonder how they would be trained to fight humans. Fighting their own troops might not be very different from fighting the enemy, hence the easy rampaging.

Seleukids had a corp of elephant guards that consisted largely of mobile missile and skirmish troops. Horses tend to be dissuaded and intimidated by the presence of elephants, and have to be trained to work in conjunction.

Opening lanes, digging pits, powerful missiles have all been used successfully to fight elephants around the world.

[Weebeast]

Elephants? Rampage? The two could never possibly be separated. That's what I bring them for. Seeing them not die or run amok is just the cherry on top. Well I could use cheaper upkeep for the campaign but whatever...

I treat my elephants just like my fm general. More often than not they survive to see another day.

[anubis88]

Elephants? Rampage? The two could never possibly be separated. That's what I bring them for. Seeing them not die or run amok is just the cherry on top. Well I could use cheaper upkeep for the campaign but whatever...

I treat my elephants just like my fm general. More often than not they survive to see another day.

Wow... Incredible... Imagine 300 of those guys, ARMOURED, attacking your battle line....
I mean seriosly... The defenders had to be disciplined and brave beyond belief, to not rout the moment they saw them charging...

Imagine, the earth trembling, huge beast running against you, probably 2 out of 10 guys fainting:laugh4:

[G. Septimus]

Elephants? Rampage? The two could never possibly be separated. That's what I bring them for. Seeing them not die or run amok is just the cherry on top. Well I could use cheaper upkeep for the campaign but whatever...

I treat my elephants just like my fm general. More often than not they survive to see another day.

This, is just awesome!!!:2thumbsup::2thumbsup:

[ziegenpeter]

My mind is not able to grasp the awesomeness of 2 people dying, 24 being hurt and why media enterprises make profit of it. Its astonishing to see this animal's power and rage but "awesome" is beyond any euphemism I'd use to describe this terrifying video.

[Ludens]

My mind is not able to grasp the awesomeness of 2 people dying, 24 being hurt and why media enterprises make profit of it. Its astonishing to see this animal's power and rage but "awesome" is beyond any euphemism I'd use to describe this terrifying video.

:inquisitive:

I fully agree. These are real people, not polygons on your monitor.

Link to video deleted.

[Weebeast]

Creative Assembly makes money off of centuries of real atrocities. I didn't say it was awesome and I also don't think Gaius thinks it's awesome that two people dying. Against the rules to link videos? Either way meh...

[Ludens]

I didn't say it was awesome and I also don't think Gaius thinks it's awesome that two people dying.

OK, I overreacted. The sensationalist presentation of that video really sent my bloodpressure up.

Still, there is a difference between playing a video game about war, and actually fighting one.


Against the rules to link videos? Either way meh...

It's not against the rules to link to videos, but this is PG-13 forum. Videos of people being killed are not allowed.

[ziegenpeter]

Creative Assembly makes money off of centuries of real atrocities. Maybe its just my arbitrarily, convetional ethics but for me there is a difference between fictional violence and real violence.
But I don't blame anyone for linking that vid, I have to admit, that it was in weird way fascinating for me, but I think you can react properly to somethhing like that.

I also don't think Gaius thinks it's awesome that two people dying.

This, is just awesome!!!:2thumbsup::2thumbsup:
:inquisitive:

[Fluvius Camillus]

I think he meant awesome as a way to see a person sent flying, not some pixel. Thats just the nature of men, however it is sad for the Mahout...

Back to topic I think.

How often do you get amok elephants and in what situation?

~Fluvius

[Weebeast]

I'll let him speak for himself but I thought "that" refers to the animal? So ok two people got killed by "gods" that they lined up. I suppose I could sit down and give a moment of silence. I posted the video merely to answer the question of how realistic of elephants running amok. You bet it's as realistic as people running amok on forums.


Maybe its just my arbitrarily, convetional ethics but for me there is a difference between fictional violence and real violence.
but you're talking about how they make money. There's no difference here. I could as well turn that elephant incident into polygons using 3d program but that doesn't change anything, rewrite history or make it okay. Does it really? I guess the term you are looking for is "too soon" maybe?

[ziegenpeter]

I suppose I could sit down and give a moment of silence. I suppose that is sarcasm?

No offense meant!
But I was so shocked (maybe I am a wussie?) that I found the comment
This, is just awesome!!!:2thumbsup::2thumbsup: very misplaced.
Lets leave it with that and go back to reason why we write here:
EB nerdyness

[Weebeast]

I suppose that is sarcasm?
In spirit no, but yeah I don't practice these things...


Lets leave it with that and go back to reason why we write here:
EB nerdyness

Elephants are as much as unpredictable as humans can be. Factor in the language barrier between the two mammals then you can see how realistic this is. It's not a secret that even humans switch sides. It happened to the legions of Pompey - they switched to Caesar's side. Elephants just happen to not care, they see neither as threat and make their own sides.

[ziegenpeter]

BTW: I don't know of any record about horses going crazy on their riders in the heat of battle.

[A Very Super Market]

Horses are herd animals, as well as being less intelligent than humans and elephants. They are considerably easier to lead, but can still disobey orders from the rider.

Specifically, the only reason that polearms repel cavalry is that horses are unwilling to impale themselves on pointy things. A rider that attempts to force their mount into a mass of phalangites will not succeed, and likely end up lying on the ground when the horse has a panic attack right before impact.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Horses are herd animals, as well as being less intelligent than humans and elephants. They are considerably easier to lead, but can still disobey orders from the rider.

Specifically, the only reason that polearms repel cavalry is that horses are unwilling to impale themselves on pointy things. A rider that attempts to force their mount into a mass of phalangites will not succeed, and likely end up lying on the ground when the horse has a panic attack right before impact.

Yea the battle engine does not have that, you can simply charge into a group of phalanx with medium cav and some will die, some will stubbornly keep running against the points and some just get through, not very realistic, but nothing the team can do about.

~Fluvius

[ziegenpeter]

Yea the battle engine does not have that, you can simply charge into a group of phalanx with medium cav and some will die, some will stubbornly keep running against the points and some just get through, not very realistic, but nothing the team can do about.

~Fluvius
Funny you guys mention, that 'cause I was thinking about that yesterday. Its a pity that they dont stop, maybe if they did that and a few dont stop early enough and get killed, the rest turns away... that would be cool

[A Very Super Market]

Yeah, it would be.

[mountaingoat]

would be nice to add some kind of modifier when charging certain units from the front ... maybe +100 defense so the cav charge will be wiped out and routed.

[Cute Wolf]

No... I think we should try to give "frighten_mounted" ability to spearmen :laugh4:

[ziegenpeter]

would be nice to add some kind of modifier when charging certain units from the front ... maybe +100 defense so the cav charge will be wiped out and routed.

Thats not what we were talking about, I guess. Horses WOULD'NT charge into a polearms formation, they'd try to turn away before. That should be included. Of course because of the sheer mass, some of these miserable ponies would get pushed into the pikes nevertheless:evilgrin:

[mountaingoat]

i meant that as an example , instead of adding something to the engine.

if the engine was being modified , maybe a radius in front of the cav spear units, that halts cav once their radius makes contact with the spear unit.

[Fluvius Camillus]

The disobeying orders is too hard to simulate, closest thing would just be a +100 attack when charging with cav into phalanx that are "ready". Come on, no horse can survive a high speed run in firmly planted pointy polearms!

~Fluvius

[ziegenpeter]

But I'm not shure if giving +100 attack would be the right way to depict it.
If horses turn away before charge, then most of them survive and sometimes cav charges without order or the AI does BS by doing a frontal charge into pikes. In that case it would be less realistic that you lose all you cav, so may be it would be even more realistic to decrease the attack and charge of the cav drastically and increase the def of cav and pikes. Like that doing a frontal charge would be kind of senseless and the cav has to turn away to try their luck again. But I doubt that even THAT is possible in the engine.

[Fluvius Camillus]

But I'm not shure if giving +100 attack would be the right way to depict it.
If horses turn away before charge, then most of them survive and sometimes cav charges without order or the AI does BS by doing a frontal charge into pikes. In that case it would be less realistic that you lose all you cav, so may be it would be even more realistic to decrease the attack and charge of the cav drastically and increase the def of cav and pikes. Like that doing a frontal charge would be kind of senseless and the cav has to turn away to try their luck again. But I doubt that even THAT is possible in the engine.

Yea 100 is a little too much, I did not meant it for cataphracts of course, but still, it seems so unrealistic that cavalry can charge and just walk between pikes...

~Fluvius

[mountaingoat]

i guess the idea is that we have full command over units , as i am sure the same argument could be said about ordering a unit of slingers to charge a pike formation.

adding bonus to spears and the like would work better .. only problem is getting the computer to understand charging cav head on = death. lol

[Vesinger]

The moral for elephants are too low in EB. Probably the lowest ever (Moral 4 for Pyrrhos' elephants)

[anubis88]

The moral for elephants are too low in EB. Probably the lowest ever (Moral 4 for Pyrrhos' elephants)

No they're not....

btw... What the hell does this have to do with the thread?:inquisitive:

[ziegenpeter]

Well Vesinger, if you had met Anubis88 on a more constructive day, he might had added "because they actually were really shilly-shally in battle" after no "they're not...":laugh4: