View Full Version : Israel and Hamas possibly facing a trial
The United Nations backs the Goldstone Gaza War report
Reporting from Jerusalem and The United Nations - In a vote likely to complicate U.S. efforts to revive Middle East peace talks, the United Nations Human Rights Council on Friday endorsed a report calling on Israel and Hamas to conduct credible investigations of alleged war crimes by their forces or face further international inquiries and possible prosecutions.
The action in Geneva by the 47-nation council was a sharp setback for Israel, which had labored to discredit the month-old U.N. report. The council's vote could force Israel to defend itself for months or perhaps years -- in diplomatic forums, if not criminal tribunals -- as U.N. bodies grapple with highly charged fallout from last winter's conflict in the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip.
Although the council embraced a report that condemned both sides, the resolution itself criticized only Israel and was adopted by a wide margin.
For the Obama administration, the decision represents a new obstacle to its goal of negotiations to establish a Palestinian state. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had warned that an international stamp of approval for the war crimes allegations would prevent Israel from "taking risks" to reach a statehood accord. And the U.S.-backed Palestinian leadership in the West Bank, after first accepting that argument under U.S. pressure, reversed its stand and pushed for Friday's vote.
With only the United States and five European allies objecting, the council, dominated by developing nations, fully endorsed the findings and recommendations of an expert panel led by South African jurist Richard Goldstone that investigated the Gaza conflict.
Twenty-five nations, including Russia and China, voted for the resolution promoted by Arab members, and 16 nations abstained or did not vote. Egyptian Ambassador Hisham Badr, a key supporter, told the council that it "cannot turn a blind eye to the deteriorating human rights situation in the occupied Palestinian territories."
State Department spokesman Ian Kelly said the United States voted against the measure out of concern "that it will exacerbate polarization and divisiveness" and undermine special U.S. envoy George J. Mitchell's work to restart peace talks broken off in December.
"What's distressing us," Kelly said Friday, "is that we're losing focus on this ultimate goal, which is a lasting peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians."
A spokesman for Mahmoud Abbas, president of the West Bank-based Palestinian Authority, called for the U.N. report's full implementation "to translate words into deeds" and "protect our people in the future from any form of aggression."
Israel's Foreign Ministry said the council's decision "provides encouragement for terrorist organizations worldwide" by condemning one state's efforts to defend itself against a militant group.
The Goldstone panel said Israel used disproportionate force, deliberately targeted civilians and destroyed civilian infrastructure. It accused the Islamic militant group Hamas of deliberately targeting Israeli civilians with years of cross-border rocket fire leading up to Israel's 22-day offensive, which left 13 Israelis and nearly 1,400 Palestinians dead.
The report urged the U.N. Security Council to require both sides to show within six months that they are conducting impartial investigations; failing that, it said, the Security Council should refer the allegations to prosecutors at the International Criminal Court based in The Hague.
The resolution adopted Friday will not necessarily lead to war crimes trials. Rather than call for Security Council action, it urged debate in the U.N. General Assembly, which lacks authority to refer cases to The Hague, and asked U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to report on whether Israel was heeding the report. A U.N. spokeswoman, Michele Montas, said Ban was studying the resolution and would "do whatever is asked of us."
Israeli officials worry that U.N. debates and inquiries will further isolate the Jewish state and encourage private lawsuits against Israeli officials and soldiers in countries that accept jurisdiction for war crimes beyond their borders. Last month, British activists tried, but failed, to get a British court to order Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak's arrest during his visit to London.
The Israelis have rejected the U.N. report's recommendation for a special inquiry on their conduct in Gaza. They argue that Israel has an independent judiciary that can review any outcome of the military's ongoing investigations of 23 cases involving civilian deaths. Some Israeli officials have called for an independent review by Aharon Barak, the former head of the nation's Supreme Court, but that idea has failed to gain traction.
While welcoming Friday's vote and calling for trials of Israelis, Hamas said it would investigate the U.N. allegations against it. The United States and European Union, along with Israel, brand Hamas a terrorist organization and give no credence to that promise.
Israeli officials said they were powerless to stop the resolution. But even their lobbying for solid Western opposition fell short when Britain and France chose not to take part in the vote.
British Foreign Secretary David Miliband told the BBC that Britain and France sat out because it would upset efforts to restart peace talks and persuade Israel to end its crippling blockade of Gaza. But delegates from both countries in Geneva said they took the war crimes allegations seriously.
source: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-fg-israel-gaza17-2009oct17,0,4629030.story?obref=obnetwork
Another interesting video here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR75kC-53Rw&feature=player_embedded#). It's Al-Jazeera though, right-wingers please don't go all insane. Thank you.
======
Well, Judge Richard Goldstone has finally brought forth his report, about a week ago the UN Security Council has accepted the the report brought forward on the Gaza War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict). This meaning that both Israel and Hamas will have to conduct their own investigations within six months or they will be referred to the ICC in The Hague.
25 countries, including the big fish Russia, China and India voted in favour of the report, while six voted against, including the United States of America, and the Netherlands.
My opinion: It's good that Israel has lost its position of being untouchable (interestingly Ehud Barak also might have faced an arrest in the United Kingdom a short time ago (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/29/ehud-barak-warrant-war-crimes-gaza). If they fail to manage to conduct their own investigation which will have to be approved of by the UN, otherwise they will be tried in the Hague. Just like the people in Bosnia.
It's interesting to see, eh. I'm not anti-Israel, and it's a good thing that Hamas is also facing consequences, it's a shame though that almost all the attacks are directed towards Israel (although it's really not that surprising). In any case, if Israel is tried for war crimes, we might see interesting things.
Two things should happen: The (ultra)orthodox Jews should get the idea of their minds they were for some reason predestined to live in that land, and the Arab nations will have to accept that the Jews are there and most likely will not leave. Once we get the extremists from both sides to the court room, there will be room for the moderates to discuss.
Hey, it's not impossible, even Israel and Iran have negotiated (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/22/AR2009102202452.html). :2thumbsup:
I think that Judge Richard Goldstone is one of the most respectable people on the planet and should at least get a Nobel Peace Prize (instead of Hussein Obama, for example).
Peace out,
- Hax
CountArach
10-23-2009, 01:06
Israel doesn't accept the legitimacy of the ICC, having not ratified the agreement. Therefore, no on from there can be brought before it.
What a just world we live in.
Israel doesn't accept the legitimacy of the ICC, having not ratified the agreement. Therefore, no on from there can be brought before it.
What a just world we live in.
Actually, there's something to that. The Palestinian Authority is trying to get approval by the United Nations to be accepted as a member state for the ICC. If they agree, the ICC will have jurisdiction to judge any person that commits crimes within the borders of the member state in which the crimes have been perpetuated. :2thumbsup:
Might be something, eh..you never know.
Tribesman
10-23-2009, 01:41
If they agree, the ICC will have jurisdiction to judge any person that commits crimes within the borders of the member state in which the crimes have been perpetuated.
No need, these constitute grave violations of the4th so there is universal jurisdiction which means any signatory can bring them to court.
Hooahguy
10-23-2009, 02:27
the UN is in no position to dictate about morals to Israel. we took a risk in pulling out of gaza with the UN telling us that they would come to our defense. for years rockets fell on civilian populations and the UN was silent. we fight back, they go nuts. besides most western nations didnt vote for it. now what does that tell you about it?
what a load of :daisy: idiots, the UN all are. a joke, thats what they are. run by thugs and liars. (sorry i had to vent.)
Bibis speech to the UN was magnificent. that is all i will say about the matter, coming to the realization that debate here is futile. :wall:
Well, y'know, Hooah...
There's more to the world than just Israel. There's more to the world than just Palestine. Both sides have committed atrocities. We should learn from our mistakes.
Judge Goldstone is Jewish and has a lot of respect from the South African people. He is a man with loads of experience. If there's anyone fit to handle the situation, it's probably him.
Hamas to conduct credible investigations
Have fun with that, UN.
Tribesman
10-23-2009, 08:27
the UN is in no position to dictate about morals to Israel.
Yes it is.
we took a risk in pulling out of gaza
No you didn't, neither did Israel for that matter.
with the UN telling us that they would come to our defense.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
for years rockets fell on civilian populations and the UN was silent.
Bollox
we fight back, they go nuts.
They went nuts because it appears the State was flagrantly commiting war crimes against civilians.
coming to the realization that debate here is futile
Thats sad, over time your knee jerk reactions to any subject mentioning Israel had matured and moderated.
You appear to have regressed
Kadagar_AV
10-23-2009, 09:01
the UN is in no position to dictate about morals to Israel.
Because you are the choosen ones? Like in "Highlander"?
Newsflash, the UN is ALL about dictating morals to individual states. One might even argue that is the reason why the UN exists!
we took a risk in pulling out of gaza with the UN telling us that they would come to our defense.
Some rabbid rabi told you this? I would love if you gave some links to support it, because from all I have read, that is... Just wrong.
for years rockets fell on civilian populations and the UN was silent.
How many civilians did those rockets kill? In the meantime, how many civilians did israel kill? And let's face it, the UN wasn't really silent, nor the world press. I even heard about it in backwater Austria.
we fight back, they go nuts.
Well, if less civilians and ordinary citizens would get hurt in your "fight back" I dont think many would have a problem. Israel is a modern state, you have the technology to limit non-military casualties. You just choose not to. Are you suprised people react?
besides most western nations didnt vote for it. now what does that tell you about it?
It tells me that most western nations thinks we might aswell build a wall around both countries, throw in some weapons occasionaly, and show it on prime-time TV.
what a load of :daisy: idiots, the UN all are. a joke, thats what they are. run by thugs and liars. (sorry i had to vent.)
Yeah, cause anyone not agreeing on Israels stance in their conflict is thugs and liars. Not to mention nazis. Remind me again, how many civilians has Israel killed? Is it more or less than the other side? You cant have the belief that one israeli life = 10 others and have it agreed on world wide.
Bibis speech to the UN was magnificent. that is all i will say about the matter, coming to the realization that debate here is futile.
When I say that debate is futile, I would rather point at individual cases than general ones :wall:
Ibn-Khaldun
10-23-2009, 09:33
I wish there could be a way to erase that whole region. World would be much nicer then.
Kadagar_AV
10-23-2009, 09:53
I wish there could be a way to erase that whole region. World would be much nicer then.
You know, I could say the F-word and get banned...
But a statement like yours is quite ok... AMERICA, :daisy: YEAH!!!!
However, I am still in favour of building walls and throwing in weapons, broadcasted on live-TV at prime-time :idea2:
He "wished there were" (subjunctive, hence clearly hypothetical) and did not single out any particular nation/culture for cultur bashing. So yes, his statement DOES pass muster as an expression of frustration (however unrealistic). SF
Ser Clegane
10-23-2009, 10:00
AMERICA, :daisy: YEAH!!!!
Knee-jerk very much, huh? What makes you think the post you responded to is in any way related to the US?
Kadagar_AV
10-23-2009, 10:05
Knee-jerk very much, huh? What makes you think the post you responded to is in any way related to the US?
Uh, actually that was <- to a popular movie where nationalistic moral algorithms were seen as a saviour of the free world in a very sarcastic way.
Nationalities aside :shame:
EDIT: One might also ask who Israels biggest supporter is.
EDIT no. 2: Isn't it kind of strange that a forum allows someone to claim a whole region should be erased, while at the same time banning people for using the A-B-C-word? Sometimes one would rather have the thought-police than the word-police ;)
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-23-2009, 10:24
the UN is in no position to dictate about morals to Israel. we took a risk in pulling out of gaza with the UN telling us that they would come to our defense. for years rockets fell on civilian populations and the UN was silent. we fight back, they go nuts. besides most western nations didnt vote for it. now what does that tell you about it?
what a load of :daisy: idiots, the UN all are. a joke, thats what they are. run by thugs and liars. (sorry i had to vent.)
Bibis speech to the UN was magnificent. that is all i will say about the matter, coming to the realization that debate here is futile. :wall:
Rubbish, bombing the hell out of Gaza was totally unjustified and pretty much an unmitigated military failure as well
Kadagar_AV
10-23-2009, 10:28
Rubbish, bombing the hell out of Gaza was totally unjustified and pretty much an unmitigated military failure as well
Wait, are you talking about when the Palestinians bombed the hell out of gaza or when the israeli bombed the hell out of gaza...
Cause for a layman like me, I am really struggling here...
From my humble point of view, yeah, both sides should be up for Haag...
I am with Hooahguy. All this nonsense, it basicly comes down to Israel not having the right to defend themselves because they aren't helpless. The Dutch killed entire villages in Indonesia. The French killed entire villages in Algeria. The rape of Africa. And we weren't even under attack, we have no moral authority here.
Ibn-Khaldun
10-23-2009, 11:28
EDIT no. 2: Isn't it kind of strange that a forum allows someone to claim a whole region should be erased, while at the same time banning people for using the A-B-C-word? Sometimes one would rather have the thought-police than the word-police ;)
What can I do.. All that unwillingness to solve their problems as matured people is giving me a headache. :shrug:
You know there is a saying(I try to translate this to English):
"Little boys solve their problems with fists but men solve their problems with words."
So.. Now you know what I think about those who are in power there..
"Little boys solve their problems with fists but men solve their problems with words."
That's what mommy says. Dad says grab an end of wood and kick their butts. Dad is right.
I am with Hooahguy. All this nonsense, it basicly comes down to Israel not having the right to defend themselves because they aren't helpless. The Dutch killed entire villages in Indonesia. The French killed entire villages in Algeria. The rape of Africa. And we weren't even under attack, we have no moral authority here.
The UN isn't the Netherlands or France. And 1940's isn't the 2010's.
I heavily applaud this resolution. Let's see if the Israeli start treating the Palestinian offensives with a little more precaution from now on, and not do "Here's the objective, accomplish at all costs, :daisy: the rest".
EDIT: And indeed, the greatest blow is possibly that the decision to compel Israel and Hamas to investigations was done by a Jewish judge who believes in the right of Israel to exist.
The UN isn't the Netherlands or France.
It's the nobel peace prize of coalitions who takes the UN seriously nowadays, muppet show. What authority do they think they have can't just make things go away the UN should be ignored.
CountArach
10-23-2009, 12:15
It's the nobel peace prize of coalitions who takes the UN seriously nowadays, muppet show. What authority do they think they have can't just make things go away the UN should be ignored.
Enjoy your world war 3.
Enjoy your world war 3.
Kinda funny you say so, WW1 was a coalition falling apart over something minor after all. And nowadays it's meaningless, once again they want too much too fast.
CountArach
10-23-2009, 13:10
Frag, are you forgetting that Israel was created by the UN?
Frag, are you forgetting that Israel was created by the UN?
Are you forgetting that deserving people have won the nobel peace price?
Vladimir
10-23-2009, 14:13
Interesting take. (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/34958_Video-_UN_Stunned_by_British_Colonels_Speech)
Except, that if you want to safeguard the lifes of people, you generally don't bomb hospitals (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/09/the_550pagereportreleased_yest.cfm?sort=desc&page=2).
If they wanted to safeguard the lives of civilians so dearly, they should have sent out an expert team of snipers, for example.
Except, that if you want to safeguard the lifes of people, you generally don't bomb hospitals (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/09/the_550pagereportreleased_yest.cfm?sort=desc&page=2).rs
If they wanted to safeguard the lives of civilians so dearly, they should have sent out an expert team of snipers, for example.
Maybe it helps to not be shooting rockets from a hospital, but that thought seems to really confuse people. And I have no idea why. They are sacrificing their own just for good pictures. These aren't human beings they are the scum of the earth, it's a media war and Israel is the frontline.
These aren't human beings
Dehumanization is the first step to genocide. :2thumbsup:
Dehumanization is the first step to genocide. :2thumbsup:
If you ever meet someone from that place, be sure to ask what nice guys these Hamas are.
If you ever meet someone from that place, be sure to ask what nice guys these Hamas are.
They are still humans.
Vladimir
10-23-2009, 16:06
Except, that if you want to safeguard the lifes of people, you generally don't bomb hospitals (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/09/the_550pagereportreleased_yest.cfm?sort=desc&page=2).
If they wanted to safeguard the lives of civilians so dearly, they should have sent out an expert team of snipers, for example.
When your enemy stores munitions in churches, you blow up the churches.
Don't be an armchair general. You have no idea of the tactical situation on the ground.
They are still humans.
I know some people who would get very upset if you said that in their face. Hamas is scum, they kill people for singing at wedding party's it's a death-cult.
I know some people who would get very upset if you said that in their face.
So what? They are still humans, and this is something we should never ever forget. We're still dealing with people who share the same emotions as us.
We're still dealing with people who share the same emotions as us.
No we aren't, these people are completely different.
They experience sadness, love, hate, anger, compassion, fear, happiness, just as we do.
They experience sadness, love, hate, anger, compassion, fear, happiness, just as we do.
Sure, but if the mods will allow a little straightforwardness, I believe that the problem is Islam itself.
Kadagar_AV
10-23-2009, 16:56
Sure, but if the mods will allow a little straightforwardness, I believe that the problem is Islam itself.
Ok... This is just getting scary... :no:
Ok... This is just getting scary... :no:
Stockhom Syndrome by Proxy, that is scary
Vladimir
10-23-2009, 17:40
Okay, can we lock this thread now? It's going nowhere. Or rather, where this topic always goes.
Sure, but if the mods will allow a little straightforwardness, I believe the problem is Islam itself.
Deleted by Moderator, borderline personal attack.
To begin, "Islam" is not just one big bloc. There are numerous schools/sects, including Ismaili, Druze, Aveli, and many others. How can you claim that Islam is Deleted? This truly is sickening.
Mods, I request a deleteion of that comment since it is hateful and no less than pure xenophobia in its worst form and insulting to the numerous Muslim members of these forums, and in violation of .org rules:
# Posts containing any generally objectionable material: knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing... ...any kind of "flaming", slurs, or insults -- addressed to either an individual or a group -- is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times.
This discussion is not about Islam. This discussion is about Israel and Palestine.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-23-2009, 18:03
When your enemy stores munitions in churches, you blow up the churches.
Don't be an armchair general. You have no idea of the tactical situation on the ground.
Not with the congregation inside, which is exactly why Saddam moved hostages into his weapons dumps.
Vladimir
10-23-2009, 18:14
Not with the congregation inside, which is exactly why Saddam moved hostages into his weapons dumps.
Yes with the congregation inside and with a million babies guarding the perimeter if the target is valuable enough. It's likely Israel conducted whatever cost/benefit analysis their military uses to make such a call.
So you're saying we shouldn't destroy those ammo dumps? If the incident you're referring to happened, it was Saddam who committed the war crime, not the country who blew the dump. He used the same tactic with his command and control centers. Hamas is not above such tactics.
Kadagar_AV
10-23-2009, 18:23
Fragony, dont get me wrong. I def do not hold muslims in high esteem, and I truly wish there were fewer of them around in Sweden. However, I am thinking you are going sliiiightly over the line here.
As to the topic.
Am I the only one finding it, well, kind of natural that both sides has been found to commit war crimes?
Vladimir
10-23-2009, 18:33
As to the topic.
Am I the only one finding it, well, kind of natural that both sides has been found to commit war crimes?
Not at all. In a sense, war itself is a crime, and I suspect rules are constantly broken in this conflict.
Reenk Roink
10-23-2009, 20:37
It's a UN court? :shrug:
Seamus Fermanagh
10-23-2009, 20:47
A few "blanket" slurs and some "edged" responses. Play nice folks.
I'm no Islamophobe/Anti-Semite, but I'm just wondering; does Hamas support the reintroduction of the Sharia Legal System, and if so, would that provide a pretext for rejecting the UN Courts?
@Subotan: Not officially, but there are cases of Hamas instituting laws of Shariah.
Huh. Besides, it's probably not going to reject the findings of a trial that will probably (and rightly) find Israel responsible for various war crimes.
Don't get it wrong, Hamas will be tried as well. Judge Goldstone has said that the UN has been lax in viewing Hamas' conduct. Hamas will be tried as well.
I know, but it's to be expected that Israel will come out worse than Hamas.
Yeah, but why shouldn't they? There are different ways of judgement for different crimes. We'll see.
CountArach
10-24-2009, 08:06
Are you forgetting that deserving people have won the nobel peace price?
Errrr....... what?
If you mean Obama didn't deserve it then you might recall... I agree...
But still - what are you on about? :inquisitive:
Errrr....... what?
If you mean Obama didn't deserve it then you might recall... I agree...
But still - what are you on about? :inquisitive:
I called the UN the nobel peace prize of coalitions. Who takes it seriously anymore with all these nasty regimes being allowed in it, became too much and ended up being nothing at all. United Nations against Israel would be a more apropiate name.
I called the UN the nobel peace prize of coalitions. Who takes it seriously anymore with all these nasty regimes being allowed in it, became too much and ended up being nothing at all.
Ugh, that reminds me of McCains proposal to have a "League of Democracy". Whether we like it or not, there are "bad" countries out there, and excluding them from the UN would only force them into a rival power bloc, Comecon/Central Powers/Axis style.
United Nations against Israel would be a more apropiate name.
Yes, because for the past 60 years, Israel has constantly been harassed and persecuted by every other country on the planet. How excellent that we can view things in proportion!
Gah, we should stop treating their reality as a social experiment. The arabs will never accept a jewish state on 'íslamic soil;, never going to happen.
CountArach
10-24-2009, 12:13
I called the UN the nobel peace prize of coalitions. Who takes it seriously anymore with all these nasty regimes being allowed in it, became too much and ended up being nothing at all.
Open communication with regimes is incredibly important. We can't just go out guns blazing and kill all the bad guys in the world - we have to achieve something diplomatically.
Gah, we should stop treating their reality as a social experiment.
Who says we are?
The arabs will never accept a jewish state on 'íslamic soil;, never going to happen.
Oh? Then why have Egypt and Jordan recognised Israel? They're more realistic than you are.
Open communication with regimes is incredibly important.
For those regimes it really is, for us less so. There is really nothing to discuss, what shall we talk about, people disappearing, torture.
CountArach
10-24-2009, 14:21
For those regimes it really is, for us less so. There is really nothing to discuss, what shall we talk about, people disappearing, torture.
Yes. Yes indeed.
Try raising human rights with China without discussing human rights with China.
Fragony is quite right, we should cancel our diplomatic ties with the United States.
CountArach
10-24-2009, 14:37
Fragony is quite right, we should cancel our diplomatic ties with the United States.
I wasn't going to say it, but I'm glad someone did :wink:
Kadagar_AV
10-24-2009, 15:10
For those regimes it really is, for us less so. There is really nothing to discuss, what shall we talk about, people disappearing, torture.
Hmmm... What was that other country I heard that about? It can't have been the US, the beacon of light... The US would never, say, torture people or make people disappear... :idea2:
United Nations against Israel would be a more apropiate name.
Agreed. Cause it's not like Israel could do anything wrong... :juggle2:
Hmmm... What was that other country I heard that about? It can't have been the US, the beacon of light... The US would never, say, torture people or make people disappear... :idea2:
Don't act too dissapointed, beacon of light no, despite the Messias. Better than these regimes yes, where would you rather have an opinion on the government, the west, or the rest.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-24-2009, 20:03
I'd rather have America as the sole superpower of the world than any of the other potential candidates.
Agreed. Cause it's not like Israel could do anything wrong... :juggle2:
It isn't that Israel can't do anything wrong, and nobody says that, it's that Israel is being disproportionately targeted by them.
I'd rather have Europe as the sole superpower on the world than any of the others. ~;)
Just because something is the best available doesn't mean it can't be improved. I thought that was part of America and capitalism, to strive for the better at all times, even when you're on top. So stop whining and try to improve things, it's the American way. :2thumbsup:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-24-2009, 20:21
I'd rather have Europe as the sole superpower on the world than any of the others. ~;)
I'm not quite as keen on that. ~;)
Just because something is the best available doesn't mean it can't be improved. I thought that was part of America and capitalism, to strive for the better at all times, even when you're on top. So stop whining and try to improve things, it's the American way. :2thumbsup:
That is precisely why I prefer America to any of the other alternatives.
I'd rather see India as the sole superpower, but lets leave that aside for now.
Ibn-Khaldun
10-24-2009, 21:31
They are still humans.
I would say that to anyone. Shoot me if you want. This killing is stupid. I wish that people would grow up!
Blah blah .. I shoot you .. I am stronger than you .. balh blah blah ..
Stupid .. Idiocy ..
Just like WAR!!!
We should learn from the past and not make the same mistakes again ..
However .. Humans are stupid.. and they will never learn...
I still believe that erasing that whole region would benefit the world!
Well, you could indeed state the whole Israel - Palestine conflict is just one of a some angry kids with weaponry.
Ibn-Khaldun
10-24-2009, 22:13
Well, you could indeed state the whole Israel - Palestine conflict is just one of a some angry kids with weaponry.
I have seen enough videos of kids with weapons shooting each other so i am too pissed off.
I am not anti-Jew but this whole Israel-Palestinian conflict is becoming ridiculous!!
Stupid humans .... Stupid Humans!!!:wall::wall::wall:
A Very Super Market
10-24-2009, 22:44
Welcome to pessimism!
Every nation has it's agenda. None are out for the good of us all. Is it better to support a nation that you believe is right, or a nation you believe is similar to yourself?
https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4843/imgtm.jpg
Courtesy of our Orgah Israeli.
A more accurate representation of the Gaza conflict, Joe Sacco (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Palestine-Joe-Sacco/dp/0224069829/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256463692&sr=8-1) style
https://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll286/Phalanxia/Gaza.jpg
got it, apreciate his style but it's kinda onesided. Or really. So is Gorazde.
got it, apreciate his style but it's kinda onesided.
He does say at the end that he'd like to come back to Israel and do a book about the Israeli side of the conflict, as he didn't have the time or the space in his book to do so. He does get snippets of their side in though, from time to time, and besides, all you have to do is turn on CNN/NBC/FOX in order to get the Israeli side of the story.
Or really. So is Gorazde.
Well, Gorazde is about the town of Gorazde, so it's going to be focused on Bosniaks/Croats. He has done a few stories on the Serbs though.
He does say at the end that he'd like to come back to Israel and do a book about the Israeli side of the conflict, as he didn't have the time or the space in his book to do so.
I think it's pretty obvious. It is really good, but it's not very right imho.
He does say at the end that he'd like to come back to Israel and do a book about the Israeli side of the conflict, as he didn't have the time or the space in his book to do so.
I think it's pretty obvious. It is really good, but it's not very right imho.
The Fixer: A Story from Sarajevo (Paperback) <- never heard of this one, ordered.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-25-2009, 16:43
https://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1007/user25201pic78412331630.png
*Sprouting Propaganda*
It misses out the part where there was a small loving Palestinian family living on a farm, then Israel comes along and throws them out of their house, bulldozes their house and builds their farm house on top of it while the family is sat in a cardboard box, starving, crammed together like sardines with other ones in the corner, while Israel brings all his friends along to do the same. The Palestinians fight back, bringing some friends, then Israel comes with America, slaughtering them, and with superior firepower and technology from their friends, oppresses them and how Palestinian males take up terrorism and radical measures in order to stop Israel from evicting them from their homes for their out-of-town friends.
Seriously, get a clue on what is actually going on.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-25-2009, 17:17
*Spouting Propaganda*
*Adds Insult For Good Measure*
:book:
How is it propaganda? You post a political cartoon which conviently misses a massive part of the whole situation. I never denied saying Palestinians took up arms and terrorism in response.
In otherwords, I took your post and added 90% of the story you missed, while it still keeps your 10%.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-25-2009, 17:27
How is it propaganda?
Well, it fits the definition thereof more or less as well as mine does.
Well, it is officially counter-propaganda. Unfortunately, you replied before I edited it. Doh. So I am going to say I said that bit on the spur of the moment and didn't have time to change it.
However, as I posted elsewhere before, this is one of those situations where you have conflicting morales.
On one-hand, you advocate nationalism, pride in your country, etc. In many regards, you should be supporting Palestine, the nation which had another nation placed right ontop of it, then getting kicked out of their own houses and forced to flee to other countries and into refugee camps.
However, you fully support Israel, because it fits in your your belief and support of American Imperialism in the region, and because the Palestinians are arabs, even though not all of them are Muslims. (There are Jewish and Christian Palestinians too)
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-25-2009, 17:45
Well, it is officially counter-propaganda. Unfortunately, you replied before I edited it. Doh. So I am going to say I said that bit on the spur of the moment and didn't have time to change it.
No, because it is still propaganda.
On one-hand, you advocate nationalism, pride in your country, etc. In many regards, you should be supporting Palestine, the nation which had another nation placed right ontop of it, then getting kicked out of their own houses and forced to flee to other countries and into refugee camps.
I disagree that it had another nation placed right on top of it (if you agree that it did, you must also agree that that nation was there first anyway), they weren't kicked out of their own homes in 1948 when Israel was formed, and they weren't forced to flee to other countries at that time either.
However, you fully support Israel, because it fits in your your belief and support of American Imperialism in the region
I don't support American "imperalism", mostly because I disagree that it is truly happening at all.
and because the Palestinians are arabs, even though not all of them are Muslims. (There are Jewish and Christian Palestinians too)
I couldn't care less what religion they are. In fact, I am quite concerned about the rapidly decreasing numbers of Palestinian Christians. You are actually ignoring the fact that Israel has quite a lot of Arab citizens.
I believe Israel is right. However, even if I didn't, I would still support them simply because their national interests coincide with those of my country.
I believe Israel is right. However, even if I didn't, I would still support them simply because their national interests coincide with those of my country.
:laugh4:
:wall:
I tried to stay away from that sort of trivia.
Nobody has commented on my comic :(
Nobody has commented on my comic :(
You didn't post it other than a link, so it took me 3 views of the topic trying to find it.
I liked it. Far more "the real story" than the previously posted one.
I thought a punch at the end was a little bit of an understatement, so I went for all out carnage, using my rubbish MS Paint skillz.
You didn't post it other than a link, so it took me 3 views of the topic trying to find it.
I liked it. Far more "the real story" than the previously posted one.
It's very biased, read it anyway because it's really good. As an art-form.
It does have the part where terrorists attack Israel. But it is pretty correct. Hamas did get elected, for example and Israel doing embargo's ensuring food, oil and supplies don't reach the people of Gaza.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-25-2009, 18:21
:laugh4:
:wall:
I tried to stay away from that sort of trivia.
Why on Earth would you support something contrary to your national interests? Right, if you're an impractical internationalist. Enjoy yourself then. :2thumbsup:
It does have the part where terrorists attack Israel. But it is pretty correct. Hamas did get elected, for example and Israel doing embargo's ensuring food, oil and supplies don't reach the people of Gaza.
And why did Israel put up that embargo? It has to be because they want to starve innocent Palestinians, can't possibly be for a more sensible and less cruel reason, nope.
HoreTore
10-25-2009, 18:39
Why on Earth would you support something contrary to your national interests? Right, if you're an impractical internationalist. Enjoy yourself then. :2thumbsup:
Some people actually realize that the people living outside your nation are actually human beings just like we are.
Weird, I know.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-25-2009, 18:44
Some people actually realize that the people living outside your nation are actually human beings just like we are.
Weird, I know.
Don't worry, I'm well aware of that. I think the vast majority of people are, to be honest. That doesn't change the fact that it isn't very smart to put someone acting contrary to your interests ahead of someone acting in favour to your interests, especially if you believe, as I do, that the one acting in favour of you is right.
HoreTore
10-25-2009, 18:51
Don't worry, I'm well aware of that. I think the vast majority of people are, to be honest. That doesn't change the fact that it isn't very smart to put someone acting contrary to your interests ahead of someone acting in favour to your interests, especially if you believe, as I do, that the one acting in favour of you is right.
If someone isn't acting on the interest of humanity, he isn't acting in my interest. A person who acts solely in favour of Norway is not in any way acting in my interest.
Some people actually realize that the people living outside your nation are actually human beings just like we are.
Weird, I know.
You forget, Kaiser Bill is an Evil Maniac from Mars.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-25-2009, 18:59
If someone isn't acting on the interest of humanity, he isn't acting in my interest. A person who acts solely in favour of Norway is not in any way acting in my interest.
Suit yourself, but you may well have a different answer if you are ever directly threatened. Nonetheless, to an extent I agree with you. That is one of the reasons I take Israel's side - they are, in my opinion, on the side of right - or as close as you can get in the situation.
You forget, Kaiser Bill is an Evil Maniac from Mars.
You forgot to acknowledge my response.
HoreTore
10-25-2009, 19:04
Suit yourself, but you may well have a different answer if you are ever directly threatened.
So......
I guess terrorism is no longer a threat then? :beam:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-25-2009, 20:00
So......
I guess terrorism is no longer a threat then? :beam:
Sure it is, but not to you or your country. In Israel it is a very real and ever present danger, and one of the reasons why Operation Cast Lead was launched in the first place, as well as the reason that Pakistan is now involved in operations against the Taliban in the north, thankfully with success so far.
HoreTore
10-25-2009, 20:31
Sure it is, but not to you or your country.
Please, will you join me and try to get that fact into the thick skulls of our leaders?
It's very biased, read it anyway because it's really good. As an art-form.
It does have the part where terrorists attack Israel. But it is pretty correct. Hamas did get elected, for example and Israel doing embargo's ensuring food, oil and supplies don't reach the people of Gaza.
:2thumbsup::2thumbsup:
I have never had anyone describe my "drawings" as an "art form" before :2thumbsup:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-25-2009, 21:04
Please, will you join me and try to get that fact into the thick skulls of our leaders?
If I respond to this in the way I'd like to I'd be crossing the line into trolling. :laugh4:
:2thumbsup::2thumbsup:
I have never had anyone describe my "drawings" as an "art form" before :2thumbsup:
well hello
HoreTore
10-25-2009, 21:06
If I respond to this in the way I'd like to I'd be crossing the line into trolling. :laugh4:
Hmm, I'm not sure exactly what you're after here, but... I can assure you that there is noone here who appreciates Norway-bashing more than I do :beam:
A bloody frozen hell-hole God forgot, that's what it is. I am so emigrating to France.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
10-25-2009, 21:12
Hmm, I'm not sure exactly what you're after here, but... I can assure you that there is noone here who appreciates Norway-bashing more than I do :beam:
Red-Green Coalition bashing is more along the lines of what I was thinking. ~;)
HoreTore
10-25-2009, 21:52
Red-Green Coalition bashing is more along the lines of what I was thinking. ~;)
You think I have anything against that?
I have never in my life trusted Stoltenberg. The only reason I can tolerate him, is because he's being whipped by Halvorsen and Navarsete(the two other party leaders). I dread what would happen if the right won the election and we got a labour minority government...
Anyway, when I said "our", I meant me and you and everyone else, not just my own leaders... Because Stoltenberg actually isn't that hot on the tewwowist scare, it's only ever talked about when they're trying to prevent voters fleeing from labour to the progress party, and then it's delegated to some other party member, like Kolberg or Gerhardsen... The 3 top scaremongerers here are Jørn Holme, chief of the secret police, Erna Solberg, leader of the conservatives and of course Siv Jensen, leader of the progress party. Most others couldn't care less about a non-existant threat...
An interesting view, from the other side (http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10232009/watch.html). I suggest the right-wingers here look at it.
Kralizec
10-29-2009, 16:39
AFAIK, the pretext why the Netherlands (and presumably some others) voted against was that while the report itself did have a small paragraph mentioning Palestinian attacks on civilians, the resolution wich was put up for vote was a one-sided condemnation of Israel.
Meh.
An interesting view, from the other side (http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10232009/watch.html). I suggest the right-wingers here look at it.
Utterly fantastic interview.
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