Should Orange marches be allowed?

[Rhyfelwyr]

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[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

As a Catholic, I say allow them. Let the Celtic fans do their thing too. Make arrests for actual crimes and for violence, don't ban the marches.


Democracy and free speech are great theories, but they're just no fun in practice, eh?

I'd prefer them to the much less fun alternatives. :book:

[Furunculus]

The parades should be allowed as any other would

[johnhughthom]

I'm a Unionist from Belfast and to say Orange Order parades here have "connotations" of sectarianism would be downright laughable, I would hope there isn't quite as much overt hatred in Scottish parades. I haven't been near an Orange Parade in 15 years as the sectarianism is quite sickening in my view, primary school kids singing anti-Catholic songs, mother wheeling prams with babies holding loyalist flags.

[rory_20_uk]

The parades are fine in themselves. They should be allowed along their normal routes.

Just if one group dislikes them does not mean they should be scrapped - if people complained about a parade in central London, should it then be scrapped? No. If people find it offensive, then don't lok. If even this is too much, then move.

~:smoking:

[tibilicus]

Yes, although from what I gather the orange marches have evolved over the years to become quite ugly events.

Generally speaking in NI they cause a lot of sectarian trouble, I think more could be done to turn the 12th into a cultural festival celebrating protestant roots and heritage, not an opportunity to burn pictures of the pope on a bonfire, especially when there's a community of Catholics down the road waiting to kick off.

[caravel]

The parades should be banned, or perhaps re-routed, as they do nothing to help the peace process. Many Republicans view the parades as having their noses rubbed in it because they are often routed through predominantly Catholic areas.

If these were parades through British streets, celebrating some historical battles/events that someone else or some particular race or culture (or some religious faction) found offensive, then you can be sure that they would be broken up and banned.

:inquisitive:

[Furunculus]

The parades should be banned, or perhaps re-routed, as they do nothing to help the peace process. Many Republicans view the parades as having their noses rubbed in it because they are often routed through predominantly Catholic areas.

If these were parades through British streets, celebrating some historical battles/events that someone else or some particular race or culture (or some religious faction) found offensive, then you can be sure that they would be broken up and banned.

:inquisitive:
working under the assumption that the post was written ironically..................

that was roflmao funny, congrats. :laugh4:

[johnhughthom]

To be honest I find the 12th of July marches quite embarrasing as an Ulsterman, if you ask a random person what they are marching for they will most likely say something like "to remember the day we put the fenians in their place". Most have no idea of the causes/results of the Battle of the Boyne, hardly any know "King Billy" was a Dutchman(I have often wondered how many loyalists have played E:TW as England and not realised who their King was?), and they even got the date wrong...

[Rhyfelwyr]

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[Furunculus]

+1 for an awesome and insightful post.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't think there is, often when there is violence surrounding them, the fans of a certain two footbal teams are heavily involved.

But yeah, you won't see people flying UDA/UFF/UVF/YCV/whatever flags from their house, the parades are a lot smaller and more toned down in general.

Or at least they have been, until all this needless hype was generated.

This rant is aimed not really at Catholics, but at the MP's (particularly of the SNP variety) who are on an agenda to enforce a fake sense of Scottishness on everyone, regardless of their roots. To show any sort of affinity with Britain/Ulster/Ireland is just not on. I've been told I'm bigoted just for supporting the flying of the Union Jack at Rangers games, as opposed to the Saltire. It's really funny, I wonder if our SNP multicultural civil nationalist friends would tell one of their Muslim voters to stop living in the past an integrate... of course, they won't. That's the worst thing about all this... the SNP are their incredibly narrow (and historically bollox) view of Scottish culture is seen as a progressive force. If any other country tried to enfore a national culture on a people that didn't identify with it, then it would be seen as fascist... the only reason it isn't in this case is because the 'why can't we all get along' brigade want rid of the traditional Irish/British hostility. The SNP history of Scotland goes something like:

1. King Fergus I united the Scots in 330 BC, making us the oldest country in the world
2. Mel Gibson defeats the English and guarantees Scottish independence
3. ----- nothing happens here ------ (that's right, there was no Reformation, the Covenanters didn't exist, the Ulster plantation never happened, Cromwell was our enemy (even though he was our ally since 1643), Charles II and his Scottish Stuart dynasty were really great (even though he hired Catholic Highlanders to plunder the lowlands and helped a famine which killed 1/5 of the population))
4. The poor Scots lose to the evil English empire at Culloden (even though there were more Scots on the Hanoverian side, and the Jacobites wanted to retake the throne at London, not Scottish independece)
5. 300 years of oppression (even though Scotland flourished in the union, recovered from devastating famine, modernised, industrialised, and developed the most advanced educational estblishment in the world)

They can rewrite the history books, but they can't change what really happened!

While agree with what you're saying, I still think the marches should be banned. They are not actually about "Protestantism", but about the Triumph of a specifically Calvinistic Dutch King. They are routed through Catholic areas for the express purpose of the rubbing of noses.

To suggest otherwise is to apply a similar filter as the SNP.

[johnhughthom]

They are routed through Catholic areas for the express purpose of the rubbing of noses.


I don't know about Scotland, but in Northern Ireland that is generally untrue, usually Catholc areas with marches were Protestant when the march began. Totally agree the marches are pure triumphalism though.

[rvg]

Let them march. It is ridiculous to hold a grudge over something that happened 300 years ago. The marchers enjoy being British, so let them do so.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't know about Scotland, but in Northern Ireland that is generally untrue, usually Catholc areas with marches were Protestant when the march began. Totally agree the marches are pure triumphalism though.

Ah, but then why not re-route the marches? The answer is Triumphalism and refusing to face the fact that they have "lost" that area to the evil Papists.

So, you see, it is for rubbing noses.


Let them march. It is ridiculous to hold a grudge over something that happened 300 years ago. The marchers enjoy being British, so let them do so.

No, they enjoy being Calvinists. I, for example, couldn't be an Orangeman because I'm Anglo-Catholic. As far as a true Orangeman is concerned I'm only half a step above a filthy Papist.

William of Orange was not a particularly popular King in England, generally viewed with suspicion by the Church and overall second Choice to the Duke of Monmouth.

[johnhughthom]

Ah, but then why not re-route the marches? The answer is Triumphalism and refusing to face the fact that they have "lost" that area to the evil Papists.

So, you see, it is for rubbing noses.


:inquisitive: Why are you arguing with me? I said the marches are pure triumphalism, my issue with your original post was that you implied the routes of these marches were specifically designed to go through Catholic areas and cause offence. This is untrue, at the time the routes were planned these were generally Protestant areas. The issue of re-routing is totally different, and yes I think contentious marches should be re-routed, though some of these marches have been going for decades, so to say triumphalism was the sole reason for not wanting to re-route is probably unfair.




No, they enjoy being Calvinists. I, for example, couldn't be an Orangeman because I'm Anglo-Catholic. As far as a true Orangeman is concerned I'm only half a step above a filthy Papist.


I wish I was "half a step above a filthy Papist", then I wouldn't keep having to think up excuses to my Grandfather why I won't join the Orange Order that don't hurt his feelings.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Can't they combine Orange Marches with Halloween trick-or-treating, that nobody notices them?


Orange marches are as sensitive as KKK marches in Black neighbourhoods. I am grudgingly in favour of not banning them, but I can see myself think otherwise. I am not a fan of sectarianism. Sooo 20th century. :no:

[Pannonian]

Bar the troublesome areas, and charge tolls if they want to go through.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

:inquisitive: Why are you arguing with me? I said the marches are pure triumphalism, my issue with your original post was that you implied the routes of these marches were specifically designed to go through Catholic areas and cause offence. This is untrue, at the time the routes were planned these were generally Protestant areas. The issue of re-routing is totally different, and yes I think contentious marches should be re-routed, though some of these marches have been going for decades, so to say triumphalism was the sole reason for not wanting to re-route is probably unfair.



I wish I was "half a step above a filthy Papist", then I wouldn't keep having to think up excuses to my Grandfather why I won't join the Orange Order that don't hurt his feelings.

I'm merely dissagreeing with you, and on a minor point. I see the refusal to re-route the marches as a deliberate snub, an attempt to remind Catholics that, regardless of the religious freedom they now enjoy, they "lost".

[Rhyfelwyr]

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[johnhughthom]

I'm merely dissagreeing with you, and on a minor point. I see the refusal to re-route the marches as a deliberate snub, an attempt to remind Catholics that, regardless of the religious freedom they now enjoy, they "lost".

There is also deliberate nationalist provocation to the marchers, it has been turned into a stand-off with neither side willing to back down because the other side will have "won". I consider myself a very even minded Unionist, but even I get a little angry when I see people like Gerry Kelly organising the Drumcree protests. Fair enough, the bulk of the blame lies with the Orange Order and hangers on, but the nationalists have to share a portion of the blame, busing people in from all over Ireland to riot is not the way to protest.


They actually had the comical situation a while ago, when elements of the more religious loyalists started displaying Israeli flags everywhere, only for the more racist anti-semitic loyalists to run around trying to tear them down. In the end, the religious guys seem to have won in this respect (probably the fact that Republicans like to display Palestinian flags, as well as strong ties between the IRA and the PLO had something do to with yes).


That stuff was hilarious.

[tibilicus]

I think it's all also kind of becoming irrelevant, as far as I'm aware the marches are starting to slowly die out. I guess that reflects that unionism is also weakening, in the past decade or so it seems to me, as an outsider of NI of course, that the Sinn fein and nationalist movement seems to be growing whilst unionism is shrinking.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Personally, I love those parades. They make me remember that I hate the English every time I forget for 2 seconds. Sectarianism makes the world go round.

[johnhughthom]

What have they got to do with the English?

[ICantSpellDawg]

What have they got to do with the English?

The English paid Presbyterian Scots to migrate to Ireland to lord over the Irish. You don't think the English did this for the benefit of Scots, do you? What doesn't this have to do with the English?

[johnhughthom]

I honestly find it bizarre that you would hate a group of people for something that happened so long ago.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I honestly find it bizarre that you would hate a group of people for something that happened so long ago.

That's why they are marching, isn't it? I'm talking about it tongue in cheek on the internet and those winners get dressed up and march about it annually.

[tibilicus]

Personally, I love those parades. They make me remember that I hate the English every time I forget for 2 seconds. Sectarianism makes the world go round.

Actually that's not what the marches were intended to originally represent AFAIK. Originally they were meant to be a celebration of the preservation of protestant values within NI. Remember that before the battle of the Boyne it was pretty much a routine thing for both the Protestants and the Catholics to go out and slaughter each other. Both sides were pretty gruesome at this so before you go ahead and think it was all those evil Protestants revelling in the joys of slaughtering Catholics your wrong, the Catholics were more than happy to do the same when they got the opportunity.

I'm pretty certain that's how the apprentice boys of Derry got their name, they held of some Catholics when the city was under siege from the Catholics who came into kill a few "prods", you know, like you did back in those days.

Also the Orange Lodge isn't really an English thing, although I'm pretty certain you have some other baseless facts to base your hate on the English. Luckily not many English or American people share you view hence the reason we get on relativity well as two nations.:2thumbsup:

[Fragony]

If you insist on being offensive don't cry if it works. Not feeling sorry when a women in a Burka is attacked, not feeling sorry for a nazi flaunting his symbols being beat up, not feeling sorry for a homosexual holding a gay pride in Jeruzalem being blown to pieces, bye. They know why they are doing it perfectly well, fine get your own security.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The English paid Presbyterian Scots to migrate to Ireland to lord over the Irish.

This is not true. There's a reason why there were so many Presbyterians in the United Irishmen rebellions after all...

[ICantSpellDawg]

This is not true. There's a reason why there were so many Presbyterians in the United Irishmen rebellions after all...

Right... Just like Whites were the allies of Blacks in the south in the early middle of the 20th century because you could see a few white guys at the March on Washington. We were the bad guys, but a few of us had some sense.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Right... Just like Whites were the allies of Blacks in the south in the early middle of the 20th century because you could see a few white guys at the March on Washington. We were the bad guys, but a few of us had some sense.

Um... what? Presbyterians and all other Protestant dissenters for that matter were placed under the same restrictions as Catholics by the Anglican elite until the Toleration Act of 1689, but which time the majority of the emigration had taken place.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Um... what? Presbyterians and all other Protestant dissenters for that matter were placed under the same restrictions as Catholics by the Anglican elite until the Toleration Act of 1689, but which time the majority of the emigration had taken place.


Right... Just like Whites were the allies of Blacks in the south in the early middle of the 20th century because you could see a few white guys at the March on Washington. We were the bad guys, but a few of us had some sense.

You're both partly right, the Puritans were part of the CofE at the time (just as the Evangelicals are today), and were not placed under restrictions. However, the paid immigrants were, irrc, High Church in the main, certainly the new landowners were.

Even so, a certain amount of the Calvinstically infected did make their way to Ireland, and this is why you have both a significant Anglo-Catholic and Calvinistic population today.