View Full Version : 15 Year Old Gang Raped as 20 Watch
Police: As many as 20 present at gang rape outside school dance
Richmond, California (CNN) -- Investigators say as many as 20 people were involved in or stood and watched the gang rape of a 15-year-old girl outside a California high school homecoming dance Saturday night.
Police posted a $20,000 reward Tuesday for anyone who comes to them with information that helps arrest and convict those involved in what authorities describe as a 2½-hour assault on the Richmond High School campus in suburban San Francisco.
Two teenage suspects have been jailed, but more arrests, as many as 20 total, are expected, according to a police detective.
"We will be making arrests continually as we develop probable cause," said Richmond Police Lt. Mark Gagan. "With this number of people implicated in the incident we're going to be making arrests on an ongoing basis."
As many as 10 people were involved in the assault in a dimly lighted back alley at the school, while another 10 people watched without calling 911 to report it, police said.
A 1999 California law makes it illegal not to report a witnessed crime against a child, but the law applies only to children 14 and under.
"We do not have the ability to arrest people who witnessed the crime and did nothing," Gagan said. "The law can be very rigid. We don't have the authority to make an arrest."
Charles Ramsey, a member of the Richmond school board, said the school district bears some responsibility for the attack. School administrators and police apparently weren't watching the area as they should have, Ramsey said.
The school said it would hold a safety meeting for parents and students Wednesday evening to address the assault.
The victim was found unconscious under a bench shortly before midnight Saturday, after police received a call from someone in the area who had overheard people at the assault scene "reminiscing about the incident," Richmond Police Lt. Mark Gagan said.
The girl was flown by helicopter to a hospital where she was admitted in critical condition. She was in stable condition Tuesday, police said.
Investigators canvassed the community with fliers, which included the reward offer, hoping to identify more suspects Tuesday.
"There is one individual in custody who has made some spontaneous statements that have led me to believe that he is culpable for what happened," Richmond police Lt. Johan Simon said.
Nineteen-year-old Manuel Ortega, described as a former student at the school, was arrested soon after he fled the scene and will face charges of rape, robbery and kidnapping, police said.
A 15-year-old was later arrested and charged with one count of felony sexual assault. A third teenager was being interviewed, Gagan said.
"Based on witness statements and suspect statements, and also physical evidence, we know that she was raped by at least four suspects committing multiple sex acts," Gagan said.
"As people announced over time that this was going on, more people came to see, and some actually participated," Gagan said.
The attack occurred on school grounds as the annual homecoming dance was under way inside the school Saturday night, authorities said.
Why couldn't the law have applied to 15 year olds too? :no:
This is tragic story... I'm really hoping they catch everyone involved.
Should one be liable, regardless of the age of the victim, for observing such a heinous crime and not reporting it?
Weebeast
10-28-2009, 04:28
Of course...someone has to go to jail
Why couldn't the law have applied to 15 year olds too? :no:
From a law perspective that's an incredibly odd discrepancy in the legislation. You'd think that the legislation would be streamlined so all minors are protected by that statute.
I don't see how that doesn't constitute criminal negligence at the very least. :inquisitive:
Papewaio
10-28-2009, 06:57
Surely it should be a crime not to report a rape or murder for any age group?
I watched a film, apparently, you can watch a crime being done and not be charged. Only if you assisted in any shape or form, such as shouting taunts/cheering, blocking the path, and other things, then you can be charged.
There was also a very high profile crime where a girl was murdered in the street, and there were a bunch of wittinesses, however, no one reported it to the police, some one a block away who heard it did.
All sorts of things.
Cute Wolf
10-28-2009, 09:11
The sickest guess: Maybe some of them is recording that rape with their video-cellphone..... :no:
That's why they didn't report it because they enjoy it......
Lower than animals..... :furious3::thumbsdown:
Louis VI the Fat
10-28-2009, 11:43
When I read the title, I thought this was another Paris thread. :sweatdrop:
The witnesses aren't witnesses to a crime at all. They are active participants in a crime. Their presence egged on the perpetrators to go ahead. They were the audience, while the perpetrators performed the show. These people knew what this was all about. The police is a bit naive here, I think, with little understanding of modern subculture.
Violence is scary, and the more people are watching the more likely it is that nobody acts, diffusion of responsibility. Goes the other way around as well, a group of ten isn't dangerous, a group of 3 is.
Lower than animals..... :furious3::thumbsdown:
Please, they are just humans. That is exactly what humans are all about. Animals don't find joy in the suffering of others. Apparently, we do.
;--------------
This is sickening, and I hope the police 'll catch anyone that was involved.
Animals don't find joy in the suffering of others.
Ever heard or seen a cat playing with a mouse? A killer whale with a half dead, young seal? Anyway, it's tangential to the topic.
Please, they are just humans. That is exactly what humans are all about. Animals don't find joy in the suffering of others. Apparently, we do.
Oh really http://www.bol.com/nl/p/boeken/van-nature-goed/1001004002595244/index.html <-good read, does assume a minimum of understanding of psychology but it's perfectly readable.
Good and evil are pretty much useless when it comes to animals. Is a lion bad for killing a giraffe?
We shouldn't judge the behaviour of animals in our own words.
Ever heard or seen a cat playing with a mouse? A killer whale with a half dead, young seal? Anyway, it's tangential to the topic.
Well yeah, sure, but can we use the words good and evil? Does the whale/cat realize what they're doing? I don't think so. I might be wrong, though.
Good and evil are pretty much useless when it comes to animals.
Primates know cruelty, sadism, genuine and strategic altruism.
KukriKhan
10-28-2009, 14:16
For 150 minutes, no adult attending the dance noticed the steady stream of students going outdoors? There was zero security present at a school-wide event?
tibilicus
10-28-2009, 14:50
An appalling case, both the students involved and there so called "supervisors" should be heald to account.
I'm not quite sure how the prison system works in California but it would be nice if those involved got sent to the real pen instead of "baby booking". Let them get set upon by a gang of sexually starved felons, see how they like it.
I don't know how they could stand by and just watch that. If I was there I would have seen red. **** my own safety, that's a young girl being attacked! :furious3:
Centurion1
10-28-2009, 15:23
these people are total :daisy:. This is probably the sickest thing i have heard of later. and you know they were all taunting and laughing. I guarantee someone has it on their cellphone. Absolute bull with that law.
God :daisy: these sick little :daisy:
honestly it was really hard not to cuss in this post after reading that
Of course it is, but you handled your post here wonderfully. This moderator hereby awards you a :balloon2: for venting in the proper fashion. :2thumbsup: -- SF
I don't know how they could stand by and just watch that. If I was there I would have seen red. **** my own safety, that's a young girl being attacked! :furious3:
Really? Don't know if I would. You don't know what's going on. Nobody does, so everything must be just fine. You will know and you will know everybody knows but that is how it goes.
johnhughthom
10-28-2009, 15:50
Really? Don't know if I would.
I have to agree, we all like to think we would jump in and stop it but you can never really be sure until you are in that situation. The type of person who would do that to a girl is not likely to stop and say "Oh, sorry how naughty of me I will stop now." Chances are jumping in would just get you a serious beating.
Strike For The South
10-28-2009, 15:55
I know I would. Texans don't stand for such transgressions.
johnhughthom
10-28-2009, 15:57
I know I would. Texans don't stand for such transgressions.
If I was built like you I know I would too, most of us aren't though.
I have to agree, we all like to think we would jump in and stop it but you can never really be sure until you are in that situation. The type of person who would do that to a girl is not likely to stop and say "Oh, sorry how naughty of me I will stop now." Chances are jumping in would just get you a serious beating.
Well done it and would do it again, but people can't always accept what they see. Especially when a lot of people are seeing it, it's called diffusion of responsibility.
I have to agree, we all like to think we would jump in and stop it but you can never really be sure until you are in that situation. The type of person who would do that to a girl is not likely to stop and say "Oh, sorry how naughty of me I will stop now." Chances are jumping in would just get you a serious beating.
Should be possible to call the police, still.
johnhughthom
10-28-2009, 15:59
Should be possible to call the police, still. :juggle2:
That's not what I was talking about, of course you should call the police.
That's not what I was talking about, of course you should call the police.
None of the 10 "kids" (or so I presume) did. Whether they were random people or in it from the beginning remains a question. If you as an outsider/adult came there, you shouldn't have much doubt in mind, nope.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-28-2009, 16:10
... These people knew what this was all about. The police is a bit naive here, I think, with little understanding of modern subculture.
Or, perhaps, the constraints imposed by laws and procedures prevent them from providing you with their "unvarnished" assessment of the "bystanders" involved. In general, our police tend to be well aware of most such things on a personal, if not an official, level.
There was also a very high profile crime where a girl was murdered in the street, and there were a bunch of wittinesses, however, no one reported it to the police, some one a block away who heard it did.
I think you're referencing Kitty Genovese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese). Famous case from the mid-sixties, caused nation-wide revulsion.
I can't even read articles like this. Or rather, I shouldn't. There's no point to getting myself worked up and rageful. Doesn't do me a bit of good.
All I can say is that I have personally intervened and helped stop crimes twice. The second time I was joined by another man who helped me pursue the criminal. (This was around 1 a.m. in a not-so-good part of Chicago, and the other man was a taxi driver who stopped when he heard the woman screaming.)
I can't do anything about gah-heads like the bystanders in the article, but I can do something when it's on my watch. And based on my (very) limited experience, there are good guys, and we outnumber the bad guys. So :daisy: them.
Crazed Rabbit
10-28-2009, 16:58
I have to agree, we all like to think we would jump in and stop it but you can never really be sure until you are in that situation. The type of person who would do that to a girl is not likely to stop and say "Oh, sorry how naughty of me I will stop now." Chances are jumping in would just get you a serious beating.
http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/firearms/faconceal.html
:yes:
Also, you could probably run these scum off by yelling and loudly calling police. Or get a buddy to go with you. And the failure of the school to stop this is inexcusable.
Still, though, I'm not sure about laws requiring reporting of crimes.
CR
For those who value their own well being there is always the option loudly yelling "It's the cops! Run!".
It's collective denial, a girl drowned in Rotterdam while hundreds were looking. You look for reassurement rather then reality when bad things happens, and when nobody does, why would you, nothing wrong, move along. Now that may be overly cynical but that's just me.
Centurion1
10-28-2009, 18:44
i just cant bewlieve this. Simply disgraceful and ashames me. Shocker that it happened in california, not.
Aemilius Paulus
10-28-2009, 19:55
Shocker that it happened in california, not.
I am curious: why do you say so?
I see the possible answers of course, but I cannot ascertain for sure which view you subscribe to.
Why couldn't the law have applied to 15 year olds too? :no:
This is tragic story... I'm really hoping they catch everyone involved.
Should one be liable, regardless of the age of the victim, for observing such a heinous crime and not reporting it?
Link?
Samurai Waki
10-28-2009, 20:33
Horrendous. This is exactly why I'm glad I moved out of California, their legislation on laws is such a marred, nonsensical labyrinth, that lawyers both prosecution and defense have to tirelessly sift through the books so that they can find a loophole to this '99 legislation. :book::yes:
Link?
:dizzy2:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/index.html
Stories like this really make me angry... As far as I'm concerned, California isn't where I want to be.
20 people? 1 victim? 2 1/2 hour assault?? Outside a high school???
I could get very worked up about things like this, but seriously?!? If I could take the law into my own hands, there would be a lot of people in prison or worse...
Stories like this really make me angry... As far as I'm concerned, California isn't where I want to be.
20 people? 1 victim? 2 1/2 hour assault?? Outside a high school???
I could get very worked up about things like this, but seriously?!? If I could take the law into my own hands, there would be a lot of people in prison or worse...
If were her brother or father, I think I'd have no mercy.
If were her brother or father, I think I'd have no mercy.
I agree, family shouldn't do that.
I wouldn't have any mercy either way though... Family or not.
In an age of communication saturation (especially here in the US) it is very hard to fathom not one person had the piece of mind to reach in their pocket, pull out their cell-phone and call the authorities.
What a world.
Samurai Waki
10-28-2009, 21:17
They're not dealing with LAPD, so chances are if they do find out who some of these people are (and with 20 some people, 1 is bound to talk) they're not going to get curb stopped, and then told they were resisting arrest.
No death sentence in California... that's why it's so screwed up.
Ser Clegane
10-28-2009, 21:38
No death sentence in California... that's why it's so screwed up.
Yes - I'm sure this is one of the main reasons why this happened... :inquisitive:
Yes - I'm sure this is one of the main reasons why this happened... :inquisitive:
Haha that's not what I meant. People don't fear the law anymore. Hence capital punishment, which is a scary thing.
Aemilius Paulus
10-28-2009, 23:13
People don't fear the law anymore.
Tsk tsk. Jumping to conclusions too swiftly. Not to mention, my warning klaxons go off when I hear anything along the lines of "people don't X nowadays anymore". I bet people said teh same about the Black Dahlia murder, which gruesomely featured unheard-of mutilation.
Hence capital punishment, which is a scary thing.
As much as I myself support capital penalty, nearly all research proves otherwise. Moderate conservatives and all liberals usually concede on this aspect. I do not view capital punishment as a deterrent. I have other reasons for supporting it.
One of the problems is the delusion of nearly all criminals that they will never be caught, a psychological fallacy nearly everyone shares. We see great misery in the news yet we are entirely assured nothing of that sort will happen to us. People have reportedly watched on video their houses or immediate vicinity torn apart, yet when they came back form evacuation, they somehow believed their dwelling was still there. Same goes for soldiers in war.
Would-be criminals are apparently not much different. My psychology professor, a former prison director and a criminal detective has the same view - and he is a moderate Republican himself. Not to mention we all know how extremes of anger or lust cloud reason.
Centurion1
10-28-2009, 23:55
I am curious: why do you say so?
I see the possible answers of course, but I cannot ascertain for sure which view you subscribe to.
well of course as a conservative i unconditionally hate northern california. but as an old southern california resident myself i have seen first hand how silly some of their laws are. Such as this law being talked about earlier in the thread. All a byproduct of their misplaced populism in the 20th century. This law should cover all people not only minors.
I also believe the three strikes idea is foolish. i mean giving addicts life for three drug charges.......
personally i favor the death penalty. I dont think it would make people fear the law more, but it would deal with overcrowding :shame:. and it agrees with my chinese legalist leaning tendency.
plus i think it foolish for murderers to serve an average 7 years while child molesters serve even less for some of the most heinous crimes possible. So basically i think death penalty should be expanded
A Very Super Market
10-29-2009, 00:24
I would agree with the death penalty if the world was perfect most efficient and the cases went straight to the chair/needle/elephant foot.
Of course, high profile murder cases take years to try, cost millions of dollars, and end up arguably as wasteful as putting incurable homicidals in pens for the rest of their life.
But this is off-topic, and I apologize. As for the girl, her family, and her friends, I cannot give anything but my condolences for the tragedy.
well of course as a conservative i unconditionally hate northern california. but as an old southern california resident myself i have seen first hand how silly some of their laws are. Such as this law being talked about earlier in the thread. All a byproduct of their misplaced populism in the 20th century. This law should cover all people not only minors.
I also believe the three strikes idea is foolish. i mean giving addicts life for three drug charges.......
personally i favor the death penalty. I dont think it would make people fear the law more, but it would deal with overcrowding :shame:. and it agrees with my chinese legalist leaning tendency.
plus i think it foolish for murderers to serve an average 7 years while child molesters serve even less for some of the most heinous crimes possible. So basically i think death penalty should be expanded
Yeah.... up here it is pretty much ridiculous. A friend of mine in class said that people who generally end up in prison are considered the "lowest of the low" because they are their for a good reason, some girl got completely offended as did most of the class. There seems to be a large general dislike of authority around here unless you live outside of the Bay Area... at least the East Bay anyways. And haven't any of you guys heard, you're a snitch if you call the police, so don't do it!! (ex. The guy who called the police and tried helping the officers who were killed in the Oakland shootings is getting harassed for that.)
And in regards to stupid things in California, that last part of your quote says it all. :no: There seems to be a whole lot of "prisoners have rights too" kind of idealism/human rights :daisy:. It completely leaves out the fact that they killed someone taking their general rights too live.
And sadly to be honest I wasn't surprised when I read that this took place in Richmond, then again the same would go if it took place in Oakland. But weirdly I haven't heard much coming out of Richmond this year and I actually thought the killings were going down, as mentioned in the article, guess not. Some say it is economics (as in a poor neighborhood), while the people that take part in these acts say they are victims of racism, oppression, etc. They expect things to just get handed to them and appear to be too lazy to make any concerted attempts to "fix" things.
And did anyone seem that stuuuuuupid documentary about Oakland that aired on the Discovery Channel? What a joke, it only inflates the egos of those :daisy::daisy:.
KukriKhan
10-29-2009, 04:55
Huzzah! Small-town California finally surpasses Detroit, Atlanta, New Orleans, Baltimore, Tampa and Chicago for most heinous crimes committed.
God help us if the Kingdom of Peace and Love has spawned the Empire of Hate and Hurt.
One of the reasons I don't like the idea of a death penalty is that it is very hard to overturn the ruling if it is later found out that the person is innocent.
Tratorix
10-29-2009, 05:28
I honestly can't believe there are people who would just stand by and watch something like this. :no:
Can we just bomb the crap out of everywhere and put an end to the human race, please?
Major Robert Dump
10-29-2009, 06:21
There has to be some sort of alcohol, drug, gang, revenge undertones here. Surely this wasn't just some spontaneous thing a bunch of dance-goers decided to do.
There has to be some sort of alcohol, drug, gang, revenge undertones here. Surely this wasn't just some spontaneous thing a bunch of dance-goers decided to do.
Mob psychology is a very interesting subject. Very normal, law-abiding people can be swayed into doing very stupid, illegal things when part of a larger group. Studies like this started right after WWII, Arendt's 'Banality of Evil' is an example.
KukriKhan
10-29-2009, 13:46
West Contra Costa Unified School District spokesman Marin Trujillo defended the school's security and said the dance itself was a success "in terms of safety."
"Nothing happened at the event. We're currently exploring our protocols to make sure that we can expand them, and make sure that this isolated incident doesn't get repeated again," Trujillo told KGO-TV.
From UPI (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2009/10/28/Five-arrested-in-gang-rape-of-teen/UPI-55621256759082/)
Now the butt-covering begins, parallel to the police work.
Major Robert Dump
10-29-2009, 13:57
sounds to me like some of the "grown ups" didn't care as long as it wasn't on the property where the dance was being held. cowardice? Apathy? hmmm i wonder. It will be interesting to say the least to watch the rolling heads in this one, especially considering the school spokespersons quote that Kukri just posted
Now I am really angry who exactly was it who watched it all
Centurion1
10-29-2009, 15:53
bah, these people are scum. That poor, poor girl.......
should feed em to tghe lions and crucify the others once the lions get full (wouldnt be surprised if the lions turned up their noses)
Strike For The South
10-29-2009, 16:20
bah, these people are scum. That poor, poor girl.......
should feed em to tghe lions and crucify the others once the lions get full (wouldnt be surprised if the lions turned up their noses)
:yes: Because the way to stop violence is beget more violence.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-29-2009, 18:52
:yes: Because the way to stop violence is beget more violence.
Well, it's one way to do it. To be practicable, however, it requires a massively disproportionate response.
Well, it's one way to do it. To be practicable, however, it requires a massively disproportionate response.
"War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Bliss"
- 1984, George Orwell.
Strike For The South
10-29-2009, 20:13
Well, it's one way to do it. To be practicable, however, it requires a massively disproportionate response.
Well yes but not like that. I also think this is more than just a rape.
:yes: Because the way to stop violence is beget more violence.
Sometimes it is the best answer.
Strike For The South
10-29-2009, 20:29
Sometimes it is the best answer.
Hey I'm all for spewing someones brains across my graden gnomes If I feel threatend but if you think this was just a few crazies doing something sick you're lying to yourself.
Terrible. I can't believe they all stood their and watched.
I'm with SFTS here.
Sometimes it is the best answer.
Indeed
Centurion1
10-29-2009, 23:50
Because the way to stop violence is beget more violence.
wasnt being literal, just venting.
hey i think this is not a few crazies either, moat of these kids are probably normal but it reflects veryyyyyyy badly on our society.
wasnt being literal, just venting.
hey i think this is not a few crazies either, moat of these kids are probably normal but it reflects veryyyyyyy badly on our society.
has nothing to do with society, it's a shame A. Saturnus doesn't post here anymore but it's a known dynamic of human nature. It's not cowardness, it's not accepting what happens right in front of you, the more people, the more collective denial 'this can't be happening'
Centurion1
10-30-2009, 17:07
cowardly people succumbing to mob physchology and collective denail, then
Vladimir
10-30-2009, 17:12
Well, it's one way to do it. To be practicable, however, it requires a massively disproportionate response.
If you're Israel and do that, you're accused of war crimes.
Hosakawa Tito
10-30-2009, 17:42
Times certainly have changed for the worst since I was in highschool. Now you need security guards at school functions with police cruising the perimeter. This school must be in a not so nice section of town with lots of gang activity.
cowardly people succumbing to mob physchology and collective denail, then
Not really cowardly, they just don't care or are afraid to get involved.
Speaking as a father of two girls, I don't think there is such a thing as a "massively disproportionate response" in this case. Your never going to stop violence, but you can contain it and get some justice for this victim.
cowardly people succumbing to mob physchology and collective denail, then
fair enough
Lord Winter
10-31-2009, 05:17
sounds to me like some of the "grown ups" didn't care as long as it wasn't on the property where the dance was being held. cowardice? Apathy? hmmm i wonder. It will be interesting to say the least to watch the rolling heads in this one, especially considering the school spokespersons quote that Kukri just posted
I don't see how this is the schools fault. A school should not be expected to patrol every inch of the land within walking distance of a dance. Blame the bystanders instead.
Major Robert Dump
10-31-2009, 07:42
I don't see how this is the schools fault. A school should not be expected to patrol every inch of the land within walking distance of a dance. Blame the bystanders instead.
You are absolutely right. Which is why when someday, when I have children who want to attend the schools homecoming dance, I will totally be like "WTF DO U WANT TO GET RAPED?" and make them go the the Baptist Sit-in down the street, in which they will be much safer unless they like to do meth and give massages to male pastors.
A public school that can't control its students is a zoo. They deserve to have every penny taken from them in regards to our wonderful national and city education system. Even if this was the worst of the wost of the worst neighborhoods (which i still dont know because all my research indicates it was middle class) then screw these teachers for not having the cajones to fololow through and stop the gangbang of a little girl.
Lord Winter
10-31-2009, 07:56
AFAIK most schools don't patrol the area around them. Blaming the school would be like blaming a church for a mugging that occured outside of it. Likewise just beacuse some students OUTSIDE the dance weren't supervised doesn't mean all the students are out of control.
Just reading the article again it doesn't say wether those involved were students, it actually says that one was a former student. If 20 students left the dance and the teachers didn't check up on them then it's the school's fault, but if it was something terrible that happened in a dark alley near the school, then it's hardly their fault.
Major Robert Dump
10-31-2009, 09:42
Maybe I'm just reminscing, but every coach in my high school looked forward to beating the living hell out of any student who transgressed on the virgin purity of prom night, of course i was one of those who transgressed, but thats a far cry from gang rape. It really does sound like there were certain authoritative parties there who just didint care, which leads us back to the cowardice argument. Even the most jaded, pansy, English teacher would surely do something in a situation like this....surely
Samurai Waki
10-31-2009, 11:38
The Crux of the problem isn't so much a national one, well not right now at least. The problem being, that kids in California don't really have much to do, I'd say that most of em' need to get set up with an after school job, but even if that were possible, it wouldn't solve the endemic cynicism, and therefore popularization of the gang mentality.
The reason why they probably didn't call the cops, is because a lot of these kids know what rough justice means, and they've either been indoctrinated, or just had it beaten into them that if they "snitch" they might as well kiss their own :daisy:'s goodbye. I would say, that they're exacerbating the problem, but CAPA doesn't exactly have the best record when it comes to dealing with small injustices with overwhelming force, and irrationality. More than likely, these 20 odd kids were also in some small way involved, maybe not with the rape itself, but with the group they're aligned too. You don't betray them, and they won't kill you (or your own family, friends, etc.)
I don't know what the best way to deal with this is, it's really up to the community; and I dearly hope they've seen the monstrosity they've created, and the tirade of drugs + violence + kids = Do whatever the hell you want. Good things have happened before with the whole Gang situation in California, and if Compton can for the most part kick the habit (which was arguably a much worse scenario altogether) then so can they.
Really, if not that. There isn't many more options than just lining up the guilty up to a concrete barrier and letting the fire squad have at em', but that wouldn't solve the problem either.
Hosakawa Tito
10-31-2009, 13:02
The Crux of the problem isn't so much a national one, well not right now at least. The problem being, that kids in California don't really have much to do, I'd say that most of em' need to get set up with an after school job, but even if that were possible, it wouldn't solve the endemic cynicism, and therefore popularization of the gang mentality.
The reason why they probably didn't call the cops, is because a lot of these kids know what rough justice means, and they've either been indoctrinated, or just had it beaten into them that if they "snitch" they might as well kiss their own :daisy:'s goodbye. I would say, that they're exacerbating the problem, but CAPA doesn't exactly have the best record when it comes to dealing with small injustices with overwhelming force, and irrationality. More than likely, these 20 odd kids were also in some small way involved, maybe not with the rape itself, but with the group they're aligned too. You don't betray them, and they won't kill you (or your own family, friends, etc.)
I don't know what the best way to deal with this is, it's really up to the community; and I dearly hope they've seen the monstrosity they've created, and the tirade of drugs + violence + kids = Do whatever the hell you want. Good things have happened before with the whole Gang situation in California, and if Compton can for the most part kick the habit (which was arguably a much worse scenario altogether) then so can they.
Really, if not that. There isn't many more options than just lining up the guilty up to a concrete barrier and letting the fire squad have at em', but that wouldn't solve the problem either.
I disagree with the highlighted part. Certain segments of our society has embraced a pop culture that glorifies violence against women, vocally reduces them to whores, and finds this to be acceptable. The behavior we condone by patronizing it, economically, is an example to those on the fringe, of acceptance. So, when you hear the music refering to women as &#####'s and #*'s, remember this group act. We're funding this cycle, but she's paying for it.
Cronos Impera
10-31-2009, 13:18
I disagree with the highlighted part. Certain segments of our society has embraced a pop culture that glorifies violence against women, vocally reduces them to whores, and finds this to be acceptable. The behavior we condone by patronizing it, economically, is an example to those on the fringe, of acceptance. So, when you hear the music refering to women as &#####'s and #*'s, remember this group act. We're funding this cycle, but she's paying for it.
That is the problem with feminism and affirmative action.Violence actually increased as a result of the feminist movement.In traditional societies like in the Muslim world, where the woman is seen as property of her husband, the frequency of gang rapes is much lower then in Western cultures, where the woman is now seen as a male without a phallus, so to speak. The destruction of the 10 commandments brought by liberal movements is the cause of all this.Even in Pakistan they are afraid because of the religious and social repercussions.Now some women want to dress like men, enroll in the army, join martial arts clubs or even drink like men.The ambiguity of roles brought by your society is the cause of all this troubles.
Now boys no longer see their female colleagues as precious beings to be loved and cherished.In the past the parents/tutors/boyfriend/brother was the protector of his female.Instead of giving that responsability to the protector, the State has assumed all fammily roles.It is only natural that such things happen until you'll revert to the traditional family.Hiding the female weakness through artificial media roles (Xena, Jane of the Jungle) and the development of the pron industry is the culprit.
Give men their rightful role back as guardians of the females, punish them for failiure but stop this ambiguity, or more people will get hurt.
I disagree with the highlighted part. Certain segments of our society has embraced a pop culture that glorifies violence against women, vocally reduces them to whores, and finds this to be acceptable. The behavior we condone by patronizing it, economically, is an example to those on the fringe, of acceptance. So, when you hear the music refering to women as &#####'s and #*'s, remember this group act. We're funding this cycle, but she's paying for it.
You Americans really ought to stop being so cynical, so it happens more in a country the size of Eureope than it does other country's, amazing. You are really going to hell.
Banquo's Ghost
10-31-2009, 14:03
That is the problem with feminism and affirmative action.Violence actually increased as a result of the feminist movement.In traditional societies like in the Muslim world, where the woman is seen as property of her husband, the frequency of gang rapes is much lower then in Western cultures, where the woman is now seen as a male without a phallus, so to speak. The destruction of the 10 commandments brought by liberal movements is the cause of all this.Even in Pakistan they are afraid because of the religious and social repercussions.Now some women want to dress like men, enroll in the army, join martial arts clubs or even drink like men.The ambiguity of roles brought by your society is the cause of all this troubles.
Now boys no longer see their female colleagues as precious beings to be loved and cherished.In the past the parents/tutors/boyfriend/brother was the protector of his female.Instead of giving that responsability to the protector, the State has assumed all fammily roles.It is only natural that such things happen until you'll revert to the traditional family.Hiding the female weakness through artificial media roles (Xena, Jane of the Jungle) and the development of the pron industry is the culprit.
Give men their rightful role back as guardians of the females, punish them for failiure but stop this ambiguity, or more people will get hurt.
Absolutely, old fruit. :toff:
Women, keep your virtue, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ0jRuASVEQ&feature=related) otherwise awful men may take diabolical liberties with your knees.
KukriKhan
10-31-2009, 14:20
"I find you're uncommon beautiful"
"Oh Dear..."
"You know what to do."
"Yes..."
"Right, strike the toothless foreign-looking type savagely to the dirt!".
:laugh4:
Darn you, Banquo, I just lost twenty minutes of my Saturday morning watching those Harry Enfield videos. Now the children and dogs don't understand why daddy is laughing hysterically.
-edit-
Some good news, for a change: the arrests are happening (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1933405,00.html). Yay.
The number of people arrested in the gang rape of a 15-year-old girl outside a high school dance in Northern California has increased to six and could get higher, authorities said.
Jose Carlos Montano, 18, was arrested Thursday evening outside his San Pablo home. He was being held on $1.3 million bail, on suspicion of rape, rape in concert with force and other charges, Richmond police said.
Authorities were still looking for suspects, and have said as many as 10 people ranging from 15 to the mid-20s may have attacked the girl for more than two hours Saturday in a dimly lit area. Montano's arrest came after three other teen suspects appeared in court for the first time Thursday.
Aemilius Paulus
11-01-2009, 04:45
Sheesh, are we sure Cronos Impera is a Romanian and not an Southern American and a fundamentalist Southern Baptist?
Sorry for feeding the you-know-what, but I was not aware that such close parallels exist... I mean, literally, I have heard the exact same words down here in the South... :skull:
Cronos Impera
11-01-2009, 13:15
In Romania the code of chivalry (bringing flowers to female co-workers, giving a seat to an elderly female and the gracious thank you coming from her part, the different greetings between men,women, and men and women) are still part of the general culture.That may be explained by the fact that our intelighentia is preety much nineteeth century but it also has to do with language:
English is a unisexual languange/sex-blind language.
In English you say something like "She was unprepared." => that is an unisexual sentance because the adverb wasn't adjusted according to the genre.
In Romanian you say something like "Ea a fost nepregatita." => that is a female sentance because the adverb was adjusted according to the genre.
Your very language makes stuff like "a man's job"; "women's work" seem odd because the language itself is sex-blind. The Anglo-Saxon movements are Anglo-Saxon (feminism, puritanism, affirmative action, equality) just because your language is English. It is written in the basic blueprint of Chaucer's lingua franca. Ambiguity and unisex exist because English exists.
Samurai Waki
11-01-2009, 13:39
... Sir Lancelot Ladies and Gentlemen, isn't he great?
...anyways...
I dislike this notion, that feminism has anything to do with the root of the problem, rather it serves as a scapegoat. Yeah, sure in the middle east a man does manly things, and a woman does womanly things, as well as living in indentured servitude for life, call rape by any other name, but its still rape. And I'd hardly call stoning/beating/torturing/killing a rape victim for bringing shame upon the family chivalric.
Prince Cobra
11-01-2009, 13:39
That is the problem with feminism and affirmative action.Violence actually increased as a result of the feminist movement.In traditional societies like in the Muslim world, where the woman is seen as property of her husband, the frequency of gang rapes is much lower then in Western cultures, where the woman is now seen as a male without a phallus, so to speak. The destruction of the 10 commandments brought by liberal movements is the cause of all this.Even in Pakistan they are afraid because of the religious and social repercussions.Now some women want to dress like men, enroll in the army, join martial arts clubs or even drink like men.The ambiguity of roles brought by your society is the cause of all this troubles.
Now boys no longer see their female colleagues as precious beings to be loved and cherished.In the past the parents/tutors/boyfriend/brother was the protector of his female.Instead of giving that responsability to the protector, the State has assumed all fammily roles.It is only natural that such things happen until you'll revert to the traditional family.Hiding the female weakness through artificial media roles (Xena, Jane of the Jungle) and the development of the pron industry is the culprit.
Give men their rightful role back as guardians of the females, punish them for failiure but stop this ambiguity, or more people will get hurt.
Some thoughts on the feminism (the moderate form of it!)
Forgive me but I think you slightly speculate with the tendencies. Stress and the concentration of huge masses of people at one place is the main reason for the violance, not the feminism. In some societies, it is also hard to prove a woman is raped without male witnesses.
I see nothing bad for a woman to join martial arts and enroll the army, if she likes it. From what I read, you think women do not feel need for strong person next to them. IMHO, you are wrong here as well. She can work as a policeman, be a politician and etc. but she will always feel the man next to her be reliable and ready to stand next to her in a difficult moment.
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