To many rumors about Rome.exe and Vanilla

[seienchin]

In every thread I look it spreads like a disease: Vanilla and Rome.exe bashing :dizzy2:
There are so many rumours and untested facts. For example: Nobody really knows if the BI or Alex Ki on the stratmap is doing more naval invasions or not. No studies have been made. :book:

Another point is Vanilla bashing. Yes of course, if you want a historical mod with a lot of units EB is better than Vanilla. No doubt. But Vanilla has a completly different target. Please dont forget that. And there are things like naval invasions and aggressive KI, that works better in Vanilla as in EB.

I also prefer EB over Vanilla(Like anybody in this forum, but please stop feeling so elite...), but seeing everything black/white and making EB a god and Vanilla a devil is not constructive.
And now, if anybody has a study about the naval invasion please post it :egypt:

[Duguntz]

In every thread I look it spreads like a disease: Vanilla and Rome.exe bashing :dizzy2:
There are so many rumours and untested facts. For example: Nobody really knows if the BI or Alex Ki on the stratmap is doing more naval invasions or not. No studies have been made. :book:

Another point is Vanilla bashing. Yes of course, if you want a historical mod with a lot of units EB is better than Vanilla. No doubt. But Vanilla has a completly different target. Please dont forget that. And there are things like naval invasions and aggressive KI, that works better in Vanilla as in EB.

I also prefer EB over Vanilla(Like anybody in this forum, but please stop feeling so elite...), but seeing everything black/white and making EB a god and Vanilla a devil is not constructive.
And now, if anybody has a study about the naval invasion please post it :egypt:

Agree! I like Vanilla RTW as much as EB. It's for me a totally different fun to play, and I don't play them as the same game! How i like to see dozens of guys flying after contact of a heavy cav. charge! oe the Lorica Segmentata of the late legionnaries, men, they're cool and he only reason I played as Roman! or the middle kingdom army of the Egypt kingdom... of corse, it's ahistorical, but they're damn cool!

seienchin's right! stop bashing!

[HunGeneral]

I agree with you guys - I might play EB (and soon RTR-FoE) more then I used to play vanilla, but all of them are great. The difference is just that they concentrate on different aspects, this doesn't make Vanilla less valueable, just more entertaining for thoose who like cool looking units, mass of action, and other things like that (from personal experience I can say that some of it is a nice change from mods although I still prefer the later in my limited time).

[antisocialmunky]

Um. BI AI does naval invasions, just idiotically. Alex AI retrains, does better diplo and naval invasions.

[Mulceber]

I greatly prefer EB to RTW vanilla, but I still acknowledge that they're both great games with different things to offer. -M

[Ibrahim]

In every thread I look it spreads like a disease: Vanilla and Rome.exe bashing :dizzy2:
There are so many rumours and untested facts. For example: Nobody really knows if the BI or Alex Ki on the stratmap is doing more naval invasions or not. No studies have been made. :book:

Another point is Vanilla bashing. Yes of course, if you want a historical mod with a lot of units EB is better than Vanilla. No doubt. But Vanilla has a completly different target. Please dont forget that. And there are things like naval invasions and aggressive KI, that works better in Vanilla as in EB.

I also prefer EB over Vanilla(Like anybody in this forum, but please stop feeling so elite...), but seeing everything black/white and making EB a god and Vanilla a devil is not constructive.
And now, if anybody has a study about the naval invasion please post it :egypt:

executable wise, research was done. I did them myself to double check, and have come to the same conclusion ASM has: stick with Alex.exe when playing EB.

otherwise, I love all three .exe's; each has its own advantages-you want an aggresive but eay time, play RTW. want a bloddy nose, but still easy-ish? try BI. want hardcore and a possible ugly death? try Alex.

[Macilrille]

I dunno, I dislike RTW for being somewhat ahistorical and possibly too focused on fun, gameplay and action; appealing to the teenage crowd.

But
1. It still reaches that crowd and shows them something of our history that they might not otherwise have learned.
2. The battles, it is the first game I know of doing them like that.
3. It forms the basic for our beloved EB, if there was no Vanilla, there would be no EB.

[ziegenpeter]

I was never a fan of RTW vanilla, my interests were more focused on medieval times and late
antiquity. That changed with eb. I'd say that my interest for antiquity is now even bigger than my interest for medieval times while my interest for LA and early Medival times is still biggest.
But discovering Eb didnt reconciliate me with RTW vanilla. I still consider it dull, and a bunch of other epithets I'm not allowed to write here. Whenever I still taste to much vanilla in the flavor of a mod I dismiss it.:skull:

[Rahwana]

Well, I allready try EB on 3 plattform (vanilla, BI, and Alex), and the one that give statisfying campaign game is BI (Shieldwall + Night Battles + Swimming), Alex has supperior AI, but less naval warfare. RTW??? They didn't have anything special, just stupid AI wondering arround

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Actually, RTW AI can surprise you sometimes. I've had naval invasions, attacks against multiple cities of mine etc. They are rare but when they happen .. :2thumbsup:

[seienchin]

Exactly. Just play Vannila and you see plenty of naval invasions. Why should the AI in EB stop doing them?:juggle2:

[Zarax]

In reality the unexplored exe is BI.
If EB2 wasn't being done I'd personally have pushed for a "1.5" edition for BI using many of their features.
Also, imho most of AI idiocy is related to them having too much money instead of being a specific exe problem.
I personally experimented with balancing the game so that there is a relatively short money supplu for most of the game and that made things much more reasonable, even seeing AI asking for ceasefire in a semi-sensible way.

Imho regardless of the exe there hasn't been enough research on gameplay under some conditions, some of which can bring surprising results.

[applebreath]

I just hope this doesn't turn into another BI vs Alex thread. Some are pretty irrational on this subject...

I was pretty disappointed with vanilla, manly I felt they did a hack job to make a quick buck.. But I can remember many good hours of playing it. Still, I was so disappointed that I wont be buying any TW products unless I need them for a mod...

-Apple

[Leão magno]

There would not be EB, RTR, IBTW, RS, etc if it was not for Rome Total War (aka vanilla) period. We gotta be thankfull foir it's release and it's "open" code

[Zarax]

Each exe has its own behaviour and with enough optimization can deliver a good experience.
Alex might have a slightly better battle AI, BI better options for faction managent and RTW is the more widespread platform.

[lionhard]

The only good thing about vanilla is the AI campaign movements other wise the units :daisy:, its sad cas i love playin online but its always the same boring factions because units are so limited, sycthia. mac, GC. pontus, Carthage, armenia and thrace may as well be the same faction the units barely vary, they all use stupid poorly balanced phalanxes and have the shite morale they al feel the same when using them.

I try goin spain because they are the only decent faction with good troop selection other than rome, and their morale is not even worth laughing about, men run be4 they even engage. I wish some 1 would revamp the vanilla version so we could further enjoy what has become boring :(

[ziegenpeter]

There would not be EB, RTR, IBTW, RS, etc if it was not for Rome Total War (aka vanilla) period. We gotta be thankfull foir it's release and it's "open" code
I doubt that CA made this game for only for the sheer gratitude:laugh4:

[Knight of Heaven]

Its funny how people say to be desapointed with RTW vannila.. I for myself was never desapointed, becouse only more recent times i became aware of the moding comunity, and of his work with games. when i became aware of this phenom i realize the ramifications were huge, and the basic game can take nmanny faces, and manny conceipts.

I play alot of RTW when came out alot, without knowing the existence of mods, and i always loved the game.

I only tried the alex exe, and at first i thought it was very good, very rare ctds, but after awhile the ctds become constant, so i changed back to RTW exe, and im sticking with it for the time being, its working very fine, the ctds arent so save corrupted as in Alex exe. this is from my experience.

[Macilrille]

I suspect the
sucking something proverbial will earn you a warning (I know I have had one for far less). If not, I will ask you to pay heed to your langauge, the explicite+sms/"Youtube"/chat style of writing makes people take your less seriously and possibly even dismiss your opinions.

Further, some people might get offended.

Just a friendly hint...

[Leão magno]

I doubt that CA made this game for only for the sheer gratitude:laugh4:

It is not about sheer gratitude, it has costs to be created it has markets adaptations, tendences, it was not created for history lovers only, it is a video game after all... but if it was not for it, we would not be here discussing EB now or would we?

[Lovejoy]

Vanilia bashing is what keep us together. If we didnt have vanilia the community would within days erupt into civilwar! We stand together against the evil we call vanilia! All hail the EB-team!! Burn the heretics!!!

[Zarax]

Let's cut the spam down, shall we?

[Cute Wolf]

Well, if there was no RTW.exe, we won't play EB this day... just don't condemn them too much, everything envolves and learned from previous faults, and today, we got the excellent Bi.exe, Alex.exe, and Many - many great mod (especially the great EB) because of RTW.exe paved their way.... :2thumbsup:. Cheers for RTW.exe :beer: :party:

Well, I still enjoy Vanilla BI, as they are still A LOT BETTER THAN **** (insert a mod that claims that they are the equivalent of EB in the BI timeframe, but they are epic fail)........

[applebreath]

It is not about sheer gratitude, it has costs to be created it has markets adaptations, tendences, it was not created for history lovers only, it is a video game after all... but if it was not for it, we would not be here discussing EB now or would we?


Well, if there was no RTW.exe, we won't play EB this day... just don't condemn them too much, everything envolves and learned from previous faults, and today, we got the excellent Bi.exe, Alex.exe, and Many - many great mod (especially the great EB) because of RTW.exe paved their way....

That kind of sentiment is such a cop out and it's why CA will continue to make poor games, they know many will buy them anyways, even if their games are buggy and have a arcade feel to them. I honor them for STW. Maybe even MTW. But after that, once they had a decent rep, all they have done is produced the minimum to make a quick buck. Its been the same story with them since. They produce games that have major bugs and a horrible AI. Everyone is always saying, "It will be so much better with the next patch/game". That's a pipe dream, nothing more.

If they would line their pockets a little less, put more into programming and design, they could make another revolutionary game AND still make much money. Especially with all the possible "free" help/volunteers out there, they should be producing much better than a pretty graphical package.

My 2 cents.


We stand together against the evil we call vanilia! All hail the EB-team!! Burn the heretics!!!

hehehe, :D


Well, I still enjoy Vanilla BI, as they are still A LOT BETTER THAN **** (insert a mod that claims that they are the equivalent of EB in the BI timeframe, but they are epic fail)

Yeah, I do also wish I could play an EB version of BI.

I will still refuse to play vanilla BI though..

[The General]

First there was Shogun, and it was awesome.
Then there was Medieval, and it was atmospheric.
Then there was Rome, and it was disappointing.

Naturally, I was younger when I first player Shogun, and my earlier experiences in computer strategy games was pretty much limited to AoE2:AoK, C&C:TS and HoM&M3:RoE. So, Shogun was a huge step in the "right" direction. Intuitive gameplay, challenging opponents (I actually *gasp* lost some of my campaigns!), sense of historicity and great atmosphere (the music especially).

Medieval was a sequel, but it was in many ways very similar to Shogun. It had a great atmosphere, a dark medieval ambience that really fit the game. However, the game was much easier than Shogun. You had to go to Very Hard settings to get some challenge to the gameplay and the game was out of balance in many ways. A single Cataphract unit could take hundreds and hundreds of enemy warriors while losing a handful soldiers. My friends used to use armies made up of a general and 19 units of a certain kind, depending on the faction, on Very Hard and steamroll through every opponent (eg. Militia Sergeant or sth). However, the atmosphere was still good and it was just orgasmic to declare war by literally throwing, say, seven armies in your opponent's province with that "thump!" sound.

Then came Rome. The gameplay had changed considerably with 3D campaign map and the fact you maneuver your armies. While this was all fine and dandy, it was rather annoying that moving armies was slower. The biggest thing was the lack of atmosphere, though. The menus, music and graphics seemed... cleaner. More polished. And this was before you got into your first battle. While the sceneries looked fantastic and cities looked much better than in earlier releases, the units too seemed... plasticy. Unrealistically shiny armour, every single warrior in uniform... uniforms. And so on. And the battles themselves, then? The units did at least look impressive marching in order in their now 3D glory in the beautiful sceneries. However, once the first blood was drawn... It was as if a stopwatch started. Every single battle ended before they really began. Oftentimes if your cavalry was ahead of your main force the infantry wouldn't make it; the enemy would be in flight before most of your army had met the enemy. In case your infantry did clash with your opponent's you only had to slightly concern one enemy unit to cause a mass rout. Enemy generals would run into your pikemen, et cetera, et cetera.

The game was even easier than Medieval. There was no atmosphere to talk about. The units looked plasticy and unrealistic. There was no real sense of historicity, with the stereotyped factions and fantasy units (pyjamamen and Roman battlefield ninjas FTL) - and factions! The map was definitely not depicting the world in 270BC. It was quite perplexing. On one hand, the game was definitely improved, with strategic maneuvaribility and truly 3D battles and indeed quite magnificent graphics. However, somewhere in the process of game's development, challenge, realism, historicity, atmosphere and - for me, at least - fun had been left behind. To me, R:TW was like a Hollywood movie, (y'know, beautiful people, easy entertainment and lots of explosions), with little to no substance.

In my opinion, thus, R:TW sucks.

I played maybe 4-6 campaigns for a bit, but I just couldn't care about my empires. I let my R:TW collect dust on some self from there on... Until I found EB. Challenge, realism, historicity, atmosphere and fun were again to be had. Without EB, R:TW wouldn't had been worth the money I put in it. If only diplomacy and AI were moddable...

[applebreath]

If only diplomacy and AI were moddable...

This is why EB2, if done properly, could be the game to play for years to come...

[Leão magno]

That kind of sentiment is such a cop out and it's why CA will continue to make poor games, they know many will buy them anyways, even if their games are buggy and have a arcade feel to them. I honor them for STW. Maybe even MTW. But after that, once they had a decent rep, all they have done is produced the minimum to make a quick buck. Its been the same story with them since. They produce games that have major bugs and a horrible AI. Everyone is always saying, "It will be so much better with the next patch/game". That's a pipe dream, nothing more.

If they would line their pockets a little less, put more into programming and design, they could make another revolutionary game AND still make much money. Especially with all the possible "free" help/volunteers out there, they should be producing much better than a pretty graphical package.

My 2 cents.



hehehe, :D



Yeah, I do also wish I could play an EB version of BI.

I will still refuse to play vanilla BI though..

And yet you bought it didn't you? I rest my case here.

I am not saying it is a perfect game, there is no such thing called perfect, they really eem to be losing the path of enjoyement in their games (personal opinion - Epire is beatiful but somehow I had not 1/1000 the pleasure I had with MTW II wich was not as fun as RTW), however this is not the point this tread is asserting. Any game that allows to flourish so many good mods, that is capable to make so many people to work toghether deserves my respect (again, it is my personal opinion)

[applebreath]

I only tried the alex exe, and at first i thought it was very good, very rare ctds, but after awhile the ctds become constant, so i changed back to RTW exe, and im sticking with it for the time being, its working very fine, the ctds arent so save corrupted as in Alex exe. this is from my experience.

I've never heard of this issue before, anyone else notice this?


And yet you bought it didn't you? I rest my case here.

I bought RTW-gold, which does come with BI. My point was that RTW/games were the last TW games I'll buy unless I need it for a mod.


Any game that allows to flourish so many good mods, that is capable to make so many people to work toghether deserves my respect (again, it is my personal opinion)

Just the fact that so many "huge" mods were created goes to show how worthless RTW is. If it was a "good" game, less mods would have been created and most would be more in the "mini" mod category. Any game will have mods, just look at EB, but those mods are more about fine tuning, rather than a complete overhaul of the original game.

I don't have any respect for "CA" anymore. My respect goes to the mod creators.

[Ringo]

I will likely never play Vanilla RTW again after discovering EB, and I agree that there are some major historical inaccuracies in Vanilla. But let's not forget that if there were no Vanilla RTW, there would be no EB. The modders have done an incredible job with EB and other mods, but without the RTW engine there would be nothing for them to mod.

[Owen Glyndwr]

To love EB and then hate vanilla is like loving a band like Greenday and not appreciating the Beatles.

As much as I dislike RTW's ahistorical gameplay, I respect the fact that without it, I wouldn't be here enjoying the greatness of EB. :2thumbsup:

[applebreath]

I don't know, maybe I'm missing something. I just don't think I should respect the CA of today, just because of the RTW engine.

The way I look at things is that if CA did it "right" in the first place, there would have been no need for EB because the vanilla game would have been pretty close to what EB is to us. If anything, the vanilla game would have been even better because it would have had a better AI or at least have some way to mod it.

Now, I can see why one might have respect because of the STW engine. That is the game that started it all and showed what could be. Because of that game, someone would have eventually made a work like EB.

When there is a need for something, it will eventually be open to the mass. That need was created with STW, not RTW. I honor CA for STW. I honor EB creators for our "RTW-game". Imo, the CA that created STW no longer exists today. To me, the CA of today is pretty pathetic.

[Ludens]

I am going to leave this thread open, but keep the following in mind:

CA bashing is not allowed.

Nor is bashing other mods, for that matter. Constructive criticism on the work of CA is fine; destructive criticism will get the discussion closed. Without CA, there would be no EB. I am very disappointed with CA's output post-M:TW, but they did create the platform for this and several other great mods. (And no, an abundance of modification does not indicate a game is bad. Quite the opposite.)

[Leão magno]

To love EB and then hate vanilla is like loving a band like Greenday and not appreciating the Beatles.

As much as I dislike RTW's ahistorical gameplay, I respect the fact that without it, I wouldn't be here enjoying the greatness of EB. :2thumbsup:

You putted it rightly! Thanks for your eloquency

[The General]

To love EB and then hate vanilla is like loving a band like Greenday and not appreciating the Beatles.

As much as I dislike RTW's ahistorical gameplay, I respect the fact that without it, I wouldn't be here enjoying the greatness of EB. :2thumbsup:

... Not really. Your analogy really isn't the best one. (Greenday, not to even talk about the quality of music, is not The Beatles altered, it's a band several decades younger than the Beatles, and while probably influenced by the Beatles to some degree, not even a direct descendant.)

Sure, R:TW provided a way, or a medium for mods like EB to be created, but R:TW was, and is, still bad, nonetheless, imho. CA could have made a great game, but instead they opted to make the most marketable game they could. Considering that I loved Shogun and thought Medieval was great, it's like watching Metallica, to continue the band-analogy trend, devolve from the band that made Ride the Lightning to the one that created Black album, then Load... Selling the soul for cold, hard cash.

[seienchin]

Seriously:
When Rome Total war came out it was incredible.:2thumbsup:
It had 3D Battles with thousands of soldiers, fighting in cities and the gameplay of an old gladiator movie. It was brilliant and criticaly acclaimed by everyone.
Saying its bad is nonsense imo.
Maybe it is bad today, but it was a great game :egypt:
(In my eyes it still is, conquering spain in 3hours with 1000s of slain enemy still feels great:2thumbsup: )

[applebreath]

Seriously:
When Rome Total war came out it was incredible.:2thumbsup:
It had 3D Battles with thousands of soldiers, fighting in cities and the gameplay of an old gladiator movie. It was brilliant and criticaly acclaimed by everyone.
Saying its bad is nonsense imo.
Maybe it is bad today, but it was a great game :egypt:
(In my eyes it still is, conquering spain in 3hours with 1000s of slain enemy still feels great:2thumbsup: )

Ummm, imo, it has always been and always will be, delicious eye candy...

I remember that time too. I was very excited, considering anything to do with "Rome", I eat up. But once I sat down and really started to play, it didn't take me long to realize it had a very arcady and Hollywood feel to it. Then I noticed the VERY VERY bad AI. Then I noticed the BUGS, including the whole reload-siege-bug. At that point, I was through with CA.

When M2TW came out I remember going to the M2TW forum and reading about the same kind of issues/bugs that plagued RTW. About a month ago I went into the ETW forum and started to read. And guess what, the same issues/bugs again. I bet they have about 1 full-time programmer, that basically "cuts and pastes" the code for the engines. Then they have a few guys working on the "eye-candy"/graghics. The rest is for the advertisement and hype.

CA reminds me of Microsoft, especially with the whole Vista OS fiasco. But still, people eat it up and run off to buy the lastest..

[Duguntz]

Ok, guys, I think most of you miss one IMPORTANT point. when seienchin started the thread, it was all about NOT BASHING on Vanilla RTW and it's other exe, still, bashing is what is most common! So i've a suggestion, as the thread is again a war (already lost) of Vanilla against EB (wich was not he subject of that thread) if you have something constructive to say about Vanilla or exe., well it'll be nice to hear. (...)

Remember, guys, that, all great EB is, it wouldn't be shit without the Vanilla!

Vanilla is great
Lorica segmentata are great
Egyptians axemen and pharao's grauds are great
germans axemen (and two handed axemen) are great,
cav. charges are impressive
No lag at all on full detail
More naval invasions than EB
And many hours of fun!

To compare Vanilla RTW and EB just for historical problem, it's like to compare a documentary movie about the Persian War and the movie 300.

Cheers to all...

Signature : A proud Duguntiz lost in a forest of prejudices...

[Cute Wolf]

Don't forget: Elephants playing soccer with flaming pigs are really awesome!:smash:

[Tony83]

It's so easy to knock vanilla RTW in hindsight. There have been many excellent mods that have extended its natural shelf life and taken it to new heights of gameplay and historical accuracy. However, I still remember the first time I fired up an RTW campaign - my PC gaming hasn't been the same since!

I came late to Shogun (I found a White Box edition in a Bargain Bucket in my local market for a couple of quid) and while it was interesting I found it a little difficult to get into the swing of it. To me it seemed like a more involved version of RISK that I was playing on my PC at the time. I did, however, eventually manage to get through an entire campaign. I thought it an intriguing concept but was hardly bowled over by it - probably the period/subject matter wasn't of particular interest to me.

On the other hand, Rome was most definitely of interest and I bought it on 22 September 2004, the day of its release in the UK. I was completey bowled over by it, from the first look at the map and Victoria explaining what was what, to Maximus taking me through my first battle. This was the game I had been waiting for! This game was a watershed moment in my PC gaming life, and for me, nothing has come remotely close to the TW series since (and god knows I've tried enough of its direct competitors).

Yes, the mods are a huge improvement on vanilla (well, you'd expect me to dsay that wouldn't you! :tongue:) but I've never had repeated the sheer awe that I experienced on playing through my first campaign as the Julii. It was a full twelvemonth before I stumbled across The Org, TWC and RTR, and in that time I happily played vanilla campaign after campaign, back to back, no other computer game has ever hooked me as much. So before you bash vanilla, try and put it into context, when it was released Rome was unique, there had never been anything quite like it.

I have played Rome, or a mod of Rome, nearly every day since it was released, and if I don't it's because I either can't get to my computer for some reason (work, holiday etc), or I'm playing another TW game! And today another chapter begins. As the PR guy for the Rome Total Realism team, it will be my pleasure, in a little under four hours, to post the thread that will release our new campaign, Fate of Empires (FOE). It's been two years in the making and even if it only gives one person the sheer joy of that watershed moment, it will have been worth it! :beam:

[Zarax]

It's easy to bash RTW and other CA products, however you have to notice one thing: The games have been built very much to be modded around and have lots of "hidden" features discovered.
I daresay that even today many of those haven't been fully explored, even by the bigger mods.

There's much more than meets the eye.

[seienchin]

Vanilla is great
Lorica segmentata are great
Egyptians axemen and pharao's grauds are great
germans axemen (and two handed axemen) are great,
cav. charges are impressive
No lag at all on full detail
More naval invasions than EB
And many hours of fun!

To compare Vanilla RTW and EB just for historical problem, it's like to compare a documentary movie about the Persian War and the movie 300.

Cheers to all...

Signature : A proud Duguntiz lost in a forest of prejudices...
Yeah and charriots work :2thumbsup:

[Duguntz]

Yeah and charriots work :2thumbsup:

oh, I forgot the chariots... they kick (insert here a word designing a part of the body situated a bit lower than the back that I can't name coz warning about my swearing rains on me...)

(Just a joke Ludens! i promessed i'd check me, i'll do it!)

anyway, seienchin's right, chariots also are great! :2thumbsup:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

The best from Vanilla...

Flaming pigs! :2thumbsup:

[Ibrahim]

You putted it rightly! Thanks for your eloquence

much better.

Has anyone mentioned the war Dogs and screaming women from RTW vanilla?

those were very exotic-even compared to Elephants, flaming pigs, or fanatic berserkers.

[lionhard]

I think its rediculous how everyonse debating if the vanilla version was good?, yes it was unit better things came out, units were not balanced and i thought that when playing back in the day.

[applebreath]

How someone defines "life" is extremely subjective/relative. That definition only matters to the individual defining it. If your "life" is in front of a PC all day, every day, so be it. Who is to say which "life" is better than another. Even "life" could be defined as a video game..

The only thing for certain is that one day we will all be gone from this world. Infinity awaits us all. Now is nothing but a blink of an eye, so do what makes you happy.

[Ludens]

This thread is a) going in circles; and b) inviting certain members to break the language rules. Time to close it.

Thread closed.