Sarissas and a phalanx' front line

[ziegenpeter]

Hi fellow EB-fans!
I wonder if pike using formations, such as the diadochoi's main forces, when facing non pike enemies marched closer to them as they would when fighting other pike formations.
This would allow the first lines to attack enemies in the backlines while the pike backlines attack and hold off the enemies frontlines. I drew this beautiful pic, I hope it underlines my description https://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1810/1346789.jpg

[Cute Wolf]

lol..... :laugh4:
Of course yes.... they using the same tactics again and again, so it won't be a surprise when non-phalanx enemies (Romaioi, Pahlava, Sauro, Sweboz) finally pwnd em down....

[Apázlinemjó]

And when the diadochos began to rely too much on phalanxes, they started to lose their battles.

[Ludens]

I don't think we can reconstruct phalanx tactics in that much detail. For example, there is a theory that the front-rank would have used shorter spears so that assailants would have to face two or even three spearpoints at the same time. I've only read it in older sources though, so I am not sure if it is still accepted.

[ziegenpeter]

Well I think this would be more dificult than what I thoght about, because when you regroup in terrain, you always need the guys with the shorter pikes to go in the front lines.
In the Ziegenpetersche Maneuver the pike front line just "skips" attacking the enemies front line and leaves them to the pikeman in the following rows.
When you have for example the first three lines of pikes attacking the first three lines* of an enemies formation and they can't reach the pike formatuion, because the Sarissas are still too long, DMG/sec. is much higher :clown::smash:.
You just have to trust that your buddies behind you will keep off the soldiers too close for your sarissa.

* Of course the idea of different numbered lines is not applicated.

[Olaf The Great]

I believe they could also march backwards.


Also:I like the Rage face

[Phalanx300]

Well the point was to let them out of range so purposely letting them into the spears isn't a good idea.

They could march backwards I gues with enough training but as seen in many battles they marched forward and pushed the enemy back.

And many people think a Phalangite without the Phalanx is helpless, but the 60 cm shield and a 30cm sword makes for a good dueling combination, especially for proffesional soldiers like the Pezhetairoi.

[Cute Wolf]

Well, just adding to the comments... Sarissas are actually hard to wield and manouver, and according to the EB description, shortswordsmen could slip into the pike wall, and tear the men from inside, just read the Galatikoi Kluddolon description for the info...

[SwissBarbar]

The brown man you drew, is that the alien from the film? :laugh4:

[ziegenpeter]

Looks like... but I just realize that the pink guy totally looks like this guy
http://www.facebook.com/profile/pic.php?uid=AAAAAQAQdyB60NjR29Ei5191LOz-ZgAAAAka-HrZ_XnYRdnFiMCPIGbq
@Topic: Are there any records that could give a hint about how the phlangites really worked?

[A Very Super Market]

Are you saying that we don't know how they did? Presumably, commanders would change and alter tactics as they wished.

[Dutchhoplite]

And many people think a Phalangite without the Phalanx is helpless, but the 60 cm shield and a 30cm sword makes for a good dueling combination, especially for proffesional soldiers like the Pezhetairoi.

Nope, a phalangite would be hopelessly outclassed in a duel. His equipment and training just wasn't suited for one on one combat.

[satalexton]

They were simply under-equipped for single combat, for soldiers of their class and training, and the counterparts they face. That does not mean that they're crap at single combat, as in non-pitched battles like sieges and in moutains, they're given javalins in place of the sarrisae.

[Rahwana]

They were simply under-equipped for single combat, for soldiers of their class and training, and the counterparts they face. That does not mean that they're crap at single combat, as in non-pitched battles like sieges and in moutains, they're given javalins in place of the sarrisae.

Hey, this isn't Medieval TW engine, you can't 'dismount' an unit and replace their weapon...

[Phalanx300]

Nope, a phalangite would be hopelessly outclassed in a duel. His equipment and training just wasn't suited for one on one combat.

Bit weird then that the Macedonian Elite Assault infantry is basicly the same outfitted only with some javelins and were used for that. They would become the elite Phalangites while using Phalangite outfit.

[antisocialmunky]

They are using the full Aspides, not the 3/4ths sized one. They are in a heavy infantry role with light infantry armor. That and when they have to start fighting in hth, they are already surrounded and screwed anyways so its not really a good comparison to look at msot of hte examples that are passed down of phalangite vs something else...

The one fair example I can think of was during the Macedonian Wars where due to rough terrain, the phalangites reformed into a 2x thick sword wielding formation and gave the Romans a run for their money. So it appears that they could hold their own when not surrounded and totally screwed.

[satalexton]

Man for man, a pezhetairoi is better than a romaioi citizen levy. The problem is two-fold: Very bad generalship and the depletion of population. It's the classic scenario of trusty 'lots being swarmed by hordes of 'lings.

[ziegenpeter]

Well I'd say that it also depends what kind of Phalangites we're talking about. A group of Agyraspides can certainly tear apart a bunch of levy slingers.

[Cute Wolf]

Ok, back to the topic again...

Maybe the very simple tactics that those Romaioi employ are quite similar with sword-and-bucklermen in M2TW... As they only need to train some hastati to dodge and slip into the phalanx formation and equipped them with medium round shield instead of scutum. This way they could rip it apart from inside... maybe the account of the battle of cyloshepae was a bit proof of the Romaioi using that kind of tactics... as their troops was poured onto the Makedonian left flank frontally (I know that the Makedonian left flank wasn't prepared yet, but one or two wall of overlapping spears was easier to pernetate then a full five wall of spears on the right flank, the romaioi only choose the easiest way...

[Ludens]

That's quite enough.

I've cleaned out the nonsense replies, and I will not tolerate further spamming by their posters.

:focus: