View Full Version : Preventing joycamptours - a piece of advice for mods
Cronos Impera
11-13-2009, 11:18
Please keep modern history threads out of the Monastery, they are Backroom stuff.
Modern history (1900-2010) is just too modern (our gradfathers have lived through the better part of it). Please keeps those threads (WW2,WW1,VIETMAN,OBAMA OUT OF THE MONASTERY as 99% of it is obviously biased and some otherwise balloon-worthy Orgahs will start writewars, textual-assaults or some nastier stuff because they have lived through the period or their parents had nasty experiences <<< that's the reason I sometimes post anti-semitic stuff when provoked by a WW2 thread>>)
Long-Term Benefits:
1) you keep objectivity in the Monastery (no more biased content or passionate arguments)
2) Orgahs can focus on safer periods (Antiquity, Middle Ages, Early Colonial Age,Pirate Age)
3) A friendlier enviroment for everyone by a simple taboo (everyone here has had a disturbing experience but seeing poping threads like "OMG, X ware persecuted in 19XX, how nasty ware those Y" is simply too insulting for some members
4) Allow our grand-grandchildren to delve into the Modern Age History
A taboo to protect them all, a taboo to heal all wounds.Leave modern history out of the public fora like you keep your dirty underwear in a closet, despite citing numerous "historical" or "archeological" sources for the modern period.
The benefit of filling the fora with threads is outweighted by a friendlier interface. Like you don't start threads like "How old's your grandfather"
edyzmedieval
11-13-2009, 14:39
Why in the world would you want to keep out WWII, WWI, Berlin Wall, Communism and such out of the Monastery? :inquisitive:
And move it into the Backroom?!?! :dizzy2:
Hey Tosa, let me tell you how to run this site. First,
Modern history (1900-2010) is just too modern (our gradfathers have lived through the better part of it). Please keeps those threads (WW2,WW1,VIETMAN,OBAMA OUT OF THE MONASTERY as 99% of it is obviously biased and some otherwise balloon-worthy Orgahs will start writewars, textual-assaults or some nastier stuff because they have lived through the period or their parents had nasty experiences <<< that's the reason I sometimes post anti-semitic stuff when provoked by a WW2 thread>>)
Orgahs have lived through WWI and WWII? I know we have a mature population here, but I suspect you overestimate how mature. In any case, speaking as a history major who wrote an honors thesis on WWII, I think we are sufficiently removed from the events to begin talking about it in an objective manner. Objectivity over WWII in historical circles began to appear after AJP Taylor's publication of Origins of the Second World War in 1961. Since that was 48 years ago, I think we're capable of having causal conversations on the subject.
In any case, I find your excuse that someone else is to blame for your own anti-semitism to be extremely questionable. If you're a bigot, at least have the courage to take responsibility for it.
Hooahguy
11-13-2009, 15:50
no excuse for anti-semitism. ever. sorry Coronos, you wont get away with this one.
Cronos Impera
11-13-2009, 16:41
As a jew once said:
"Reality depends on which side of the table you are."
When someone comments on Cernovsky Oblast during WW2 or what happened during the early 50's I get a little edgy and post anti-semitic remarks.
When I get an Israel-Palestine thread I'm indifferent to the matter.
When dealing with 272 BC. - 1900, 2008+ Jewish culture I'm pro-Semite.I even watched Hooahguy's Hebrew Learning Social Group.
Just like you had a hostile business relationship at some period in time with somebody and now he is your day-to-day supplier. You simply keep the troubled past in taboo mode.Each keeps his mental framework intact while having a nice cooperation with the partner.But if the other side insists he is right, after having a business meeting.I always do that in RL.
Just read through all my Backroom posts. I simply avoided the WW2 threads,the Palestine-Israel debates.
Hooahguy please see with Banquo. I had only 1 minor infraction on anti-semitic grounds.And that was directed at the banking system..
Strike For The South
11-13-2009, 16:46
There was a pirate age?
When someone comments on Cernovsky Oblast during WW2 or what happened during the early 50's I get a little edgy and post anti-semitic remarks.
When I get an Israel-Palestine thread I'm indifferent to the matter.
When dealing with 272 BC. - 1900, 2008+ Jewish culture I'm pro-Semite.I even watched Hooahguy's Hebrew Learning Social Group.
So what you're saying is that the rest of the forum cannot talk about modern history in the Monastery because you're unable to control your own anti-semitism?
Cronos Impera
11-13-2009, 16:51
Yes, you know...with eye-patches, wooden legs, glittering machettes, wooden boats and such. And that is definately cooler than Modern History.
Like 1800 Texas is cooler than 1970's Texas (despide Dallas and Fort Worth).
Strike For The South
11-13-2009, 16:51
So what you're saying is that the rest of the forum cannot talk about modern history in the Monastery because you're unable to control your own anti-semitism?
LOL I didn't even see that.
If this gets granted can I motion we dont tall about American history from 1865-1965. Every time I see a black person trying to get rights I foam at the mouth.
Yes, you know...with eye-patches, wooden legs, glittering machettes, wooden boats and such. And that is definately cooler than Modern History.
Like 1800 Texas is cooler than 1970's Texas (despide Dallas and Fort Worth).
Dallas is the east coast of Texas.
Mithrandir
11-13-2009, 16:51
There was a pirate age?
Just before the ninja age I think. Which, ofcourse both ended when the camel age started.
edited in quote because there were 3 new posts in between within 5 seconds.
I think it would be pretty easy to get nasty/personal in topics about earlier events. Nationalism has a long shelf-life.
The difference between Monastery and Backroom threads should be in their tone.
Cronos Impera
11-13-2009, 16:58
TinCow, modern history isn't just history.It's part of our existance. We allready have 1/4 of the XX century covered ourselves. We can't get but emotional and biased in our apraisal of Modern History.
I, myself never keep Modern History articles or read them for such because I'll confront it with the experience of my family and get angry.
Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. The easiest way to prevent hate is to prevent anger and all I can sense in WW2 threads is anger so I get angry and sart to hate.Check the Wermarcht thread in the Monastery...despite the illusion of calm you can still sense anger and hostility.
Could you ask Herodotus for objectivity over the Greek Wars? Not, because he lived through the period.True history is written by living persons about persons long forgotten.
Mithrandir
11-13-2009, 17:00
I, myself never keep Modern History articles or read them for such because I'll confront it with the experience of my family and get angry.
Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. .
So why not just stay out of those threads... Yoda (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHa3D-musUw)..sir :bow:
TinCow, modern history isn't just history.It's part of our existance. We allready have 1/4 of the XX century covered ourselves. We can't get but emotional and biased in our apraisal of Modern History.
I, myself never keep Modern History articles or read them for such because I'll confront it with the experience of my family and get angry.
Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. The easiest way to prevent hate is to prevent anger and all I can sense in WW2 threads is anger so I get angry and sart to hate.Check the Wermarcht thread in the Monastery...despite the illusion of calm you can still sense anger and hostility.
Speak for yourself. I don't get emotional or biased in my appraisal of modern history. Neither do others who are trained in that academic subject, and there are many of them on this forum. It appears to me that the problem is with you, not with modern historical topics. If you are incapable of discussing a topic in a mature and responsible manner, then the proper course of action is for you to refrain from discussing it. I see no reason why those of us who do not experience similar difficulties should be penalized for your own failures of self-control.
Cronos Impera
11-13-2009, 17:17
I do.Check my posts in the Monastery. None regarding WW2 or Communism.
But we don't have a ignore thread option and I still can't figure out how to filter threads.
If we could get a Filter installed I think I could drop my request alltogether. Some thread titles just hurt my eyes and antagonise people.
Why can't you have an opposite of the Favorites options (a thread ignore option or such).
So Hooahguy doesn't bump into a Palestine-Israel thread, I don't bump into a WW2 thread,Sarmatian doesn't bump into a Kosovo thread and Mithrandir doesn't bump into a "Desert Ferrari is faster than Camel" thread.Sorry Mithrandir for the profanity.
Mithrandir
11-13-2009, 17:18
"Desert Ferrari is faster than Camel" thread.Sorry Mithrandir for the profanity.[/B]
There'd be no discussion possible, that'd just be silly.
I do.Check my posts in the Monastery. None regarding WW2 or Communism.
But we don't have a ignore thread option and I still can't figure out how to filter threads.
If we could get a Filter installed I think I could drop my request alltogether. Some thread titles just hurt my eyes and antagonise people.
Why can't you have an opposite of the Favorites options (a thread ignore option or such).
So Hooahguy doesn't bump into a Palestine-Israel thread, I don't bump into a WW2 thread,Sarmatian doesn't bump into a Kosovo thread and Mithrandir doesn't bump into a "Desert Ferrari is faster than Camel" thread.Sorry Mithrandir for the profanity.
What you're asking for already exists. Any user can remove any forum from their view in the User CP. Go to:
User CP -> Edit Options -> Scroll down to Forums To Exclude From View -> Highlight whatever forum you do not want to see (i.e. Monastery) -> Hit Save Changes
Ta-da... no more forum.
Cronos Impera
11-13-2009, 17:24
Ok, thanks.
Cronos Impera
11-13-2009, 17:42
Sorry for the doulbe post but I was just wondering.
Is there any way to create a unified aproach through encoding for the ignore option?
Like having a menu where you could pick members,tags,key words, forums and such from one single pannel?
Aemilius Paulus
11-13-2009, 17:47
I agree that communism and Berlin Wall should be in the Backroom, as well as possibly Vietnam, depending on which course the discussion takes, but taking WWII and I to the Backroom is overreacting IMHO.
Hooahguy
11-13-2009, 17:53
well, if we are discussing the history of communism, than no, but if we are discussing the ideas of comunism than it should be in the backroom.
Sasaki Kojiro
11-13-2009, 18:07
Start them in the monastery, if they go political move them to the backroom. Simple.
Rhyfelwyr
11-13-2009, 19:07
Start them in the monastery, if they go political move them to the backroom. Simple.
This.
Regarding the anti-semetism, I think what Cronos means is that he is anti-whatever Israel/Jewish people were doing at some point in history. So being against the Nazi's wouldn't make you anti-German, just anti-what was going on in Germany at the time. .
Aemilius Paulus
11-13-2009, 20:02
well, if we are discussing the history of communism, than no, but if we are discussing the ideas of comunism than it should be in the backroom.
One inevitably leads to another :shrug:
Louis VI the Fat
11-13-2009, 20:57
Uhm, what Sasaki said. Move threads that get too heated to the Backroom.
speaking as a history major who wrote an honors thesis on WWIIYet despite this you never pop up in WWII threads. :cry:
Too personal? Too low a standard of debate? Too much anger, or too much resignation to bother?
Louis VI the Fat
11-13-2009, 20:58
As a jew once said:
"Reality depends on which side of the table you are."
When someone comments on Cernovsky Oblast during WW2 or what happened during the early 50's I get a little edgy and post anti-semitic remarks.
Well time to get a little edgy then! Because if you're up for it let's take this to the Monastary or Backroom, where I'll discuss how Cernovsky Oblast during WWII was the site of mass murder and pogrom by Romania, and you get to convince me otherwise.
Yet despite this you never pop up in WWII threads. :cry:
Too personal? Too low a standard of debate? Too much anger, or too much resignation to bother?
Actually, it's more that I've just read too much on it and it doesn't peak my interest a great deal to debate it anymore. WW2 was my passion for history for so long that I feel like I've learned all I want to learn about it. I've moved on to other areas of research since then.
I read all kinds of random books about all kinds of random aspects of history, but I do find myself getting into 'phases' where I concentrate heavily on one particular bit of history for a few years at a time. After WWII, I shifted to the US Civil War. Then to the Roman Republic/Empire. Then to 17th through 19th Century Europe. I'm currently focusing heavily on medieval European history. My goal is to eventually cover every area of history in every part of the world. I'm not positive where I'm going to go after medieval Europe, but Middle Eastern history seems likely, via the Crusades as a means of transition.
Cronos Impera
11-14-2009, 10:58
Well time to get a little edgy then! Because if you're up for it let's take this to the Monastary or Backroom, where I'll discuss how Cernovsky Oblast during WWII was the site of mass murder and pogrom by Romania, and you get to convince me otherwise.
If you want to, you can open it in the Backroom.
Only one of us will win, and return to post again.
"One will be banned.Face me then let the mods decide."
Just a shameless new hit called "Let the mods decide" with a videoclip featuring camels and pirates fighting ninjas.
Just kidding. If you want a Covenanter shower featuring extreme reality and reports about the Oblast and N.Moldova you can post it in the Backroom.We'll see then who is the irrational poster.Only you and me: fallacy filters on.
I've blocked the Monastery from my user panel since the WW2 thread just hurts my spleen.
Hello,
I vaguely recall some anger about Alexander the Great. Some Greek (?) people became totally upset about him being portrayed homosexual in the movie. Not sure where I saw this, may have been another board, but wow, to get a flamewar about someones sexual orientation who lived over 2,000 years ago.
It's true however. Recent history is more likely to turn into an ugly discussion. It's sad actually, as new history is written today. So, anything would be ok for the Monastery. It mostly needs a while to settle down though. WW1 and WW2 are clearly history (yet sadly, it's still a very bad living memory for some people). The 60's, 70's and 80's are history too. Any discussion can turn nasty and none can.
The Backroom isn't a FFA pit either.
Cronos Impera
11-14-2009, 15:18
Tosa, please examine the WW1 and WW2 threads. Most discussions are as it follows "Side X commited that atrocity against my people. That people commited that atrocity." And even though some of the stuff is documented by no means that documentation (citing clearly biased sources like Ellie Viesel on Jews in Romania) cannot provide the basis for a healthy debate, despite honest disillusioned people like TinCow who thinks he can stand in an ivory tower and not get involved in a dangerous way.
Tosa, there are other boards for this kind of chesspit discussions. That forums usually contain a lot of locked threads, banned people and annoyed staff. The ideal of the Org is to provide a friendly enviroment for all where everyone can feel confortable despite historical hostilites between members.
Just like saying:
This bloodbaths divide us, but I want you and I to have a productive, healthy cooperation since the goal of this board is to create a community, not give you or I approval on the matter.As long as we keep our silance on the matter everyhing is fine, bring the matter into question and all that work is ruined. And maybe after we are long dead, our children might finally manage a healthy peace.
That is why we must keep modern history out of the Org.
Magyars and Romanians traditionally are like Hattfields and McCoys. I once had a gentleman called Forgus on the EB team.We ware discussing the defacing of the RTR site by Turkish nationalists and Edyz had the dumb ideea of bringing the Romanian-Magyar relationships into discussion.Forgus retaliated in force and I was drawn unwillingly into the mess.It nearly ruined everything and turned me into a troll.I still regret it.
All it takes is a handful of self-righteous pricks like Tribesy or the french poster with a royal name to start a flamewar. This is it, elitist pricks who in the Backroom or Monastery exploit obvious fallacies like Godwin's Law to anger you.
I have no doubt that Louis will use Godwin's Law in the opening argument or that he will try to make me appear as a subhuman bloodthirsty balkan nationalist worthy of "Cherem" which in Romanian/Yiddish is written the same and means the same thing "ignore poster".
Louis, if Hooahguy had the politeness to understand and be quiet about it, why do you still insist in your nothingains?
Quintus.JC
11-14-2009, 16:19
Could you ask Herodotus for objectivity over the Greek Wars? Not, because he lived through the period.True history is written by living persons about persons long forgotten.
History is about things that never happened written by people that were never there to see it happen. Therefore we can only form opinions about the past, but never know the whole truth. Best to accept that - it's far easier this way.
One thing I don't understand is how we turned from free love and peace in the 1960's mainstream to today. It is like the 1960's never existed at all.
Though, there is probably more truth in that comment than realised. Many people in the 1960's aren't these people you actually see in Austin Powers and other TV shows, majority of them had quite "normal" lives. So if anything, the 1960's are a complete misrepresentation, or only around for a very brief and certain socioeconomic generation.
Louis VI the Fat
11-14-2009, 23:53
All it takes is a handful of self-righteous pricks like Tribesy or the french poster with a royal name to start a flamewar. This is it, elitist pricks who in the Backroom or Monastery exploit obvious fallacies like Godwin's Law to anger you.
I have no doubt that Louis will use Godwin's Law in the opening argument or that he will try to make me appear as a subhuman bloodthirsty balkan nationalist worthy of "Cherem" which in Romanian/Yiddish is written the same and means the same thing "ignore poster".
Louis, if Hooahguy had the politeness to understand and be quiet about it, why do you still insist in your nothingains?Why am I not politely silent? Because I will not be intimidated by some internet cursing into silence about mass murder. :book:
I can perfectly well discuss 20th century events in a polite manner. If others can't, then it is up to them to refrain from participating.
Then again, it is considered extremely bad taste in Japan to bring up the subject of 'comfort girls'.
Which begs the question: which, and whose, norms ought to apply on the .org / the internet?
The world is full of taboos. For example, there are cultures who think it bizarre that there should be no sign below names that says 'male / female'. Posters will not know how to respond to other posters without this information.
Should the .org accomodate this?
In other countries, where it concerns (recent) history, a culture of silence exists. Sometimes out of larger cultural norms, sometimes to deal with painful episodes of the past, sometimes enforced from above, or enforced by those with an interest in keeping the silence.
Should this culture of silence be accepted by the .org?
These are difficult questions, certainly not as straightforward as they might appear. This is the watchtower, so I'll leave the subject with the questions raised.
I shall pass up on the opportunity to discuss some of the historical events brought up in this thread. The events are known, at any rate only a few mouse clicks away for those interested. Discussing them at lenght will no doubt prove to be fruitless.
Samurai Waki
11-15-2009, 01:33
I admire Louis's candor in the WWII/WWI Debates, and I hope that doesn't go away. It gets the discussion away from the continuous recycling of data from previous threads on the subject. It so far hasn't even gotten that bad, it provokes well thought out responses from our German Members, that by-and-large you wouldn't be able to hear outside of an internet forum, and I find that as interesting as the War and the Consequences thereof itself.
If you have a problem with it, you don't have to look at it, its that simple.
One thing I don't understand is how we turned from free love and peace in the 1960's mainstream to today. It is like the 1960's never existed at all.
Though, there is probably more truth in that comment than realised. Many people in the 1960's aren't these people you actually see in Austin Powers and other TV shows, majority of them had quite "normal" lives. So if anything, the 1960's are a complete misrepresentation, or only around for a very brief and certain socioeconomic generation.
aka - Recent History is still relevant to be discussed in conversations about History, etc.
Louis VI the Fat
11-15-2009, 01:54
well thought out responses from our German MembersOur German members are very polite and knowledgable, and will keep a good discussion even when they think some criticism is unfair. I always have the feeling I can still have a beer with them afterwards and talk nonsense about football.
I had many a conversation about this with Adrian. We never quite worked it out, but I have a distinct feeling that people from larger countries are somewhat more used to their history being discussed than posters from smaller countries. And as a result are more relaxed about being scrutinized, can take a bit more criticism. I mean, every Frenchman, American or German will have read an entire library of rubbish spouted about his country. Fine and whatever and all that. The Finnish, Polish, Romanian poster on the other hand may be less used to being the subject of debate by foreigners.
You have the same mechanism with cities. What does somebody from New York care what is written about NY in the Akron Post, or even in the national press? Whereas if some small town is on the news for the first time that decade, the locals tend to freak out.
I don't see this as a problem for the forum, but a lack of being able to control your emotions, self-control or whatever you want to call it. I wouldn't say banning a part of history from the Monastery would change that. In fact that is a ridiculous idea.:bow:
Sasaki Kojiro
11-15-2009, 06:51
Poland is renowned for making terrible cheese.
I don't see this as a problem for the forum, but a lack of being able to control your emotions, self-control or whatever you want to call it. I wouldn't say banning a part of history from the Monastery would change that. In fact that is a ridiculous idea.:bow:
Isn't that just the great thing about the internet, though? Because you're not next to the person you're talking to, you've always got the option to walk away for a little bit and let your emotions die down. It takes you clicking "Post a Reply", writing your post out, and then actually submitting for your reaction to be seen by anyone here. That is a lot of time to rethink your decision.
It's something more people should take advantage of, I think.
I had many a conversation about this with Adrian. We never quite worked it out, but I have a distinct feeling that people from larger countries are somewhat more used to their history being discussed than posters from smaller countries.
I guess it's how it's discussed and received. Up to this day I hear young German people talking about WW2, almost as if they were responsible for it them self. They aren't, nor their ancestors (most likely being normal people without say).
I guess it's how it's discussed and received. Up to this day I hear young German people talking about WW2, almost as if they were responsible for it them self. They aren't, nor their ancestors (most likely being normal people without say).
I'm certainly not one of them, I noticed in my discussion with Louis I used "we" and "the Germans" interchangeably, I'm a German, but not one of the Germans who did that. If my dad snapped and murdered my mom, would I have to apologize to my sister? :dizzy2:
pevergreen
11-15-2009, 14:27
If you helped dispose the body, yes.
:wink:
Isn't that just the great thing about the internet, though? Because you're not next to the person you're talking to, you've always got the option to walk away for a little bit and let your emotions die down. It takes you clicking "Post a Reply", writing your post out, and then actually submitting for your reaction to be seen by anyone here. That is a lot of time to rethink your decision.
It's something more people should take advantage of, I think.
Yes that is what I meant. You've got plenty of time to step back and take some deep breaths or whatever to calm down. You will probably end up conveying your point better that way. It's always good to be cool and collected when you are discussing something controversial or that may become a very heated discussion. I agree with you completely on that.
I'm certainly not one of them, I noticed in my discussion with Louis I used "we" and "the Germans" interchangeably, I'm a German, but not one of the Germans who did that. If my dad snapped and murdered my mom, would I have to apologize to my sister? :dizzy2:
Actually, if your Dad snapped and killed some one elses Mother, would you have to apologise to their daughter?
Now your question is far more clouded and closer to the situation.
On one-hand, you never did it, so you could try to argue not. However, if you feel your father did something really bad, you could apologise condemning your father for what he did and let the daughter know your whole family isn't a bunch of brutes.
Cronos Impera
11-15-2009, 18:43
Without taboos there would not be a single human alive.
General use taboo:
You never ask your parents about their sexual experience.
Taboos are a healthy, civilised thing which keep cheeky weaklings from getting into trouble.It also keeps the structure intact.Wtihout them nations dissolve into individuals who form other nations and so on.
I posted Loius a message on the personal profile to deal with his provocations in the Backroom, where nothingains are popular and the mods more patient with a certain tone and style. All gentlemen, regardless of personal characteristics are invited to view it, have a good time and add it to favorites.
Simple principles which would make WW2 threads redundant
Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
All animals are equal and humans are animals.
So far, no WW2 thread has expressed this rules and we all get in a :daisy: spiral. That would have ended A-worse-than-B, 9 million > 6 million and that kind of pathetic, imature replies. Don't make me dig for dirt.
Instead on focusing on technical parts such as equipment, food habits and such most threads start with "That guy killed a whole village of that people, if you are a member of his tribe you should be ashamed." Than that guy comes with his bodycount and we all end up in a bodycount thread, with grousome execution details.Then we all end up with a horrible nausea and start blaming the other side for throwing the first rock.Then the mods get tired eventually and close the thread.
Does it worth a byte's length to fill the board with this kind of stuff?
Some history is for the family/tribe/nation....use other non-controversial stuff like sarissa-length, military tactics used in the Maccabe uprising, the War of the Roses, and wars in general from a time when factions ware centered around other criteria then today. When mighty dynasties clashed, when the Ptolemaioi and Seleukidiai mobilised the whole middle east.When Afghanistan was Hellenic/Kushan/Persian or when pirates threatened whole nations with their colossal fleets.
Not waste energy on controversial nothingains which turn the Monastery into a semi-respectable Backroom for instant gratification.It doesn't help you develop personal skills or a firm morality.
Gregoshi
11-15-2009, 19:12
Poland is renowned for making terrible cheese.
That's because the milk comes from Krakows. :inquisitive:
General use taboo:
You never ask your parents about their sexual experience.
Your parents usually tell you about the moralities of sex, and sometimes speak from experience. Asking them about sexual experience can be done in a grown up and mature manner. Your parent might admit to mistakes, and using this, help a child learn and possibly not to repeat them.
Such a General-use-Taboo if anything is incorrect, and only goes into unessential prudishness if the original question was actually mature.
I believe you can ask any one who is actually a parent on the .org, if their child comes to that age where you talk about sex, if they would discuss it with their child in an adult manner, I would think the answer would be yes.
Again, you could argue it is about culture. When I was younger, I spoke to my parents in a mature and adult way about sex, there was a bit of a joke to it as well, but yes. These things were discussed, including other things related such as relationships and love. Being able to talk to your children helps them learn and understand, it makes you into a good parent.
Only taboo to it, would be the "wrong time and place" and if you are only being immature about it. Then again, shouldn't the taboo be "don't be immature" opposed to the alternative of banning it altogether?
So in short, opposed to just banning certain things, should you just ban "being immature on the subject" ?
Cronos Impera
11-15-2009, 20:44
The greatest difficulty I guess is responding in a mature way to an imature post.
When the guy beside you posts about why his cows are more sacred than yours and shoves you that post in your throat you ban him.
When the incident repeats itself a couple of times you grow tired of a case-to-case aproach and start locking threads (In EB we lock threads when they have a negative potential). The Org is about getting the best out of its members, despite their potential. Its simply not about getting the worse of Orgahs.
On one-hand, you never did it, so you could try to argue not. However, if you feel your father did something really bad, you could apologise condemning your father for what he did and let the daughter know your whole family isn't a bunch of brutes.
The latter can be expressed without apologizing.
The latter can be expressed without apologizing.
Indeed, though some link the condemnation of what occurred to apologising. There are many people who don't condemn wrongs sometimes, and even try to support the doings of lets say the father in the example, as he stands up in court and pleads 'Not Guilty'.
So it really depends.
Meneldil
11-15-2009, 23:12
Instead on focusing on technical parts such as equipment, food habits and such most threads start with "That guy killed a whole village of that people, if you are a member of his tribe you should be ashamed." Than that guy comes with his bodycount and we all end up in a bodycount thread, with grousome execution details.Then we all end up with a horrible nausea and start blaming the other side for throwing the first rock.Then the mods get tired eventually and close the thread.
And what about the thousands of people who don't give a freaking damn about the technical parts of the war but are interested in the social and human aspects? I'm really not interested about who had the best WWII2 tank, who was the best general and who had the best tactic. There's a reason why WWII will be remembered for a long time, and it's certainly not because the T-34 was better than the SOMUA S-2.
This topic is full of bollox. Can't stand the discussion? Don't discuss. When people are too annoying for me, I simply leave a thread, and come back again at a later point if I feel more relaxed about it.
Hmm, seems like I'm late once again. Just to reply to the more interesting spots:
1) you keep objectivity in the Monastery (no more biased content or passionate arguments)
Passionate arguments are good, as long as neither side gets angry or upset - the more effort put into a discussion, the richer it will be. As for biased content - if you can prove it is biased, do so, and disregard it further. If you can't, why are you calling it biased?
2) Orgahs can focus on safer periods (Antiquity, Middle Ages, Early Colonial Age,Pirate Age)
I really don't see this as a benefit. They already have that right - now you're going to force it on them? No thanks.
3) A friendlier enviroment for everyone by a simple taboo (everyone here has had a disturbing experience but seeing poping threads like "OMG, X ware persecuted in 19XX, how nasty ware those Y" is simply too insulting for some members
The problem isn't in the time period. "OMG, X were prosecuted in 18XX, how nasty were those Y" is no better. Both should be locked (imho, or given a shove in the right direction) for lack of objectivity and not stating sources. "Simply too insulting" is missing the point - such discussion is, as far as I can tell, against the rules of the monastery. If "Such book states these people were prosecuted in <year>, let's look at the politics of the time" is too much for you, I'd say the problem isn't in the thread.
4) Allow our grand-grandchildren to delve into the Modern Age History
Quite the opposite. There is a reasonable chance this forum will be archived somewhere - by seeing what was being said about the politics at the time they were happening, they'll get a much better view than from merely reading the texts published in this time.
Taboos are a healthy, civilised thing which keep cheeky weaklings from getting into trouble.
Trouble that is created merely by the existence of the taboo - to use your example, if it would not be considered taboo to talk to your parents about their sexual experiences, nobody would think you strange or rude for doing it.
It also keeps the structure intact.Wtihout them nations dissolve into individuals who form other nations and so on.
So, not abiding to taboos means you start thinking for yourself. Gee, that really is an awful thing to do.
Simple principles which would make WW2 threads redundant
Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
All animals are equal and humans are animals.
Actually, "If they're not listening, stop talking" and "Making yourself look smart is better than making the opponent look stupid" seem far better principles.
Louis VI the Fat
11-16-2009, 00:17
I posted Loius a message on the personal profile to deal with his provocations I've thought long and hard about all of this. I have a thousand different thoughts. Which I am too lazy to repeat here.
I am not going to open a seperate thread. Nothing good will come of it, for a number of reasons.
If you are really interested in discussing modern Romanian history, open some thread and I shall happily oblige.
If your interest however is in trying to ensure that Romanian history is not discussed, then sorry. This is a historical war games forum, so history of wars is a natural discussion topic. And when the subject comes up, I will continue to describe Romania as a fascist Nazi ally that murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews and other minorities of its own accord.
I'm certainly not one of them, I noticed in my discussion with Louis I used "we" and "the Germans" interchangeably, I'm a German, but not one of the Germans who did that. If my dad snapped and murdered my mom, would I have to apologize to my sister? :dizzy2:
Hello Husar,
True. I tried to say something along the same lines. It some discussions it's exactly where it goes wrong: the Germans are bad, the male members in your family are bad (in this example) and so on.
It's going both ways I think. People hurling generalizations too easily and people reading them were they aren't.
Louis VI the Fat
11-16-2009, 00:37
I guess it's how it's discussed and received. Up to this day I hear young German people talking about WW2, almost as if they were responsible for it them self. They aren't, nor their ancestors (most likely being normal people without say).Hmmm...I think most Germans by now are a bit fed up with WWII. And with perennial moral appeals.
The German education system is excellent. Germans come out very informed and opiniated. Which is praiseworthy. Germany has had an examplary Vergangenheitbewaltigung. (=Dealing with the past). A lot of Germans are apologetic, especially the young and ideologic. And the German state is too.
But, there is also an overwhelming feeling, in Germany an in its neighbours, that WWII was 200 years ago. Ancient history. My grandparents got over it already. As did Husar's. (Once they were released and returned from Siber
One newer aspect, either overdue or perhaps at the right time, is that Germany has become assertive about its past too. Timidly expressing guilt is no longer the sole 'right' way of dealing with recent history. The German state recently has on several occasians said 'no' to requests for WWII compensation. There is an exploration of German suffering too, which is no longer taboo. In literature, the press, movies. (For cinema, see 'Dresden' or 'Die Flugt', for literature: Guenther Grass' 'Der Krebstgang')
Cronos Impera
11-16-2009, 07:19
I've thought long and hard about all of this. I have a thousand different thoughts. Which I am too lazy to repeat here.
I am not going to open a seperate thread. Nothing good will come of it, for a number of reasons.
If you are really interested in discussing modern Romanian history, open some thread and I shall happily oblige.
If your interest however is in trying to ensure that Romanian history is not discussed, then sorry. This is a historical war games forum, so history of wars is a natural discussion topic. And when the subject comes up, I will continue to describe Romania as a fascist Nazi ally that murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews and other minorities of its own accord.
You're the Senior Member. I myself can't start the thread. Its a privilage I'm giving to you as a senior member. Follow my guidelines and we'll have a healthy positive discussion. Ulike yourself, I haven't even deployed my grenadiers. You're still in Fussilier skirmishing mode, Monsieur.
Just like I said: it is you vs. me without anyone else.
Edit: I guess you're refusing the privilage and I have to start the thread myself (I'll post the rules in the first post).
I know this isn't the most reliable source, but what Louis claimed is also supported by Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Romania#World_War_II
Which cites:
International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania (November 11, 2004). "Executive Summary: Historical Findings and Recommendations" (PDF). Final Report of the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania. Yad Vashem (The Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority). http://yad-vashem.org.il/about_yad/what_new/data_whats_new/pdf/english/EXECUTIVE_SUMMARY.pdf. Retrieved 2006-07-25.
Also at the time, Romania was part of the Axis powers.
What Louis says isn't that inaccurate. Even then, if you have issues with him personally, take it up in PM, the Forum isn't your personal war ground.
Cronos Impera
11-16-2009, 08:04
We allready have a precedent on the Backroom and I fail to see how this would constitute a war ground.
Debates are a healthy thing if started in the Backroom and with a mature ration.
I think we can test his objectivity and/or possibly validate the premises of this thread.
Sasaki Kojiro
11-16-2009, 08:06
Cronos, you're a very strange person...
But, there is also an overwhelming feeling, in Germany an in its neighbours, that WWII was 200 years ago. Ancient history. My grandparents got over it already. As did Husar's. (Once they were released and returned from Siber
Well, I'm a bit sick of it always having to make me sad and cry, there are enough other reasons that make me sad and want to cry, if it gets too much I'll get depressions so I distance myself a bit from it, might make me look a bit hard at times but I prefer that over being depressed all the time, that doesn't help anyone either.
My grandmother came from eastern Prussia and doesn't like to talk about it, bit of a pity but I can understand and respect that, it was a horrible experience for her, no need to make her depressed either. Her husband died when I was one year old, I have no idea what he did during the war. My dad's family is dutch so they were certainly not in Siberia, most likely just going about their daily lives, his parents died long before I was born.
The typical problem with nation states is that I have to pay for Eastern Germany now after the Russians and Eastern Germans let it rot for 50 years and we even paid them to get it back. And on top of it, Louis told me, I have still to pay for something that an idiot, who wasn't even elected, decided in 1914. :sweatdrop:
On the other hand I view socialism and collectively helping the weak as something good though(to a certain reasonable extent), hypocrisy?
Now to somehow wind that back to the original topic, why would anyone get annoyed over this? If my grandpa had been a nazi, got shot and someone said it was right that he got shot, I would probably agree, just like I would not support my dad in or after murdering my mom or anyone's mom for that matter. If an old guy dies in prison because he was sentenced to 175 years and served only 25 of it, do you go and get his sons to imprison them for the remaining 150 years? If someone dies with a huge amount of debt do their kids have to pay for it? No? Then why does it work differently with nations and why do people get annoyed when someone calls their grandfather, or the grandfather of someone with the same passport a murderer? I personally find it somewhat irrational, but if you feel that way, as has been said, at least grow the bones to remove yourself from it and don't censor what others can say.
Cronos, you're a very strange person...
This is the only conclusion that I've drawn from this thread.
It's real simple, if you ask me. If one can't take part in a debate without getting all wound up, don't participate and stay out of it. Don't feed the trolls. Don't give in to your anger, even if you can feel the hate flowing through you and your journey toward the Backroom is near complete.
:balloon2:
If someone dies with a huge amount of debt do their kids have to pay for it? No?
I have to admit, I am very glad those days have gone. Unfortunately this used to be the case and as you can imagine, it was very bad.
My opinion towards history is that you accept what happened and move on. Don't get stuck in the pass and don't repeat the worse aspects of the pass.
I have to admit, I always wanted to be in a German History lesson. Over in the UK, I did the world wars almost non-stop from the age of 14 to the age of 19. Looking at all sorts of theories and historical ideas, from "Is Hitler simply the product of the German people?" to "Hitler did it all". I always wondered how they ever taught the subject over in Germany, because if it is handled in the wrong way, I could imagine a lot of resentment towards people or even a slight glorification and misinterpretation. Sorry, I am going off-topic here, if you like, I would love to talk about it more with you Husar/EMFM/others. :sweatdrop: Don't worry, it will be in a mature manner and won't be calling people murderers.
pevergreen
11-16-2009, 10:33
I could hate the Japanese for what they did to Darwin. But I don't.
Come here Beefy, I love you!
Samurai Waki
11-16-2009, 11:07
This is the perspective that I like. I as well could be angry with the Japanese for forcing my grandfather into imprisonment and a slow, wretched, and agonizing death. I may even be justified in my anger, however, I am not like my father, who had to live with the direct consequences, and so I can see the picture from a different angle. Without the atrocities of this war, I dare say that we would not have been able to see into looking glass, and know of what monstrocities we are capable of becoming. I am thankful that japan and germany exist as they do today, but I doubt it would have been so if they had not witnessed their own moral destruction.
This is the perspective that I like. I as well could be angry with the Japanese for forcing my grandfather into imprisonment and a slow, wretched, and agonizing death. I may even be justified in my anger, however, I am not like my father, who had to live with the direct consequences, and so I can see the picture from a different angle.
Not to forget the japanese you meet are most likely not the ones who did that to your father.
pevergreen
11-16-2009, 13:49
Not to forget the japanese you meet are most likely not the ones who did that to your father.
But it still weighs down on them.
Multiple times throughout his time here, Beefy has mentioned to me that he feels regret for what Japan did.
I am unsure of how serious he is, but he never mentioned it in a humorous way. I took him to be serious about it.
But most Australians are easy going compared to a lot of the world...
Louis VI the Fat
11-16-2009, 15:44
The typical problem with nation states is that I have to pay for Eastern Germany now after the Russians and Eastern Germans let it rot for 50 years and we even paid them to get it back. And on top of it, Louis told me, I have still to pay for something that an idiot, who wasn't even elected, decided in 1914. :sweatdrop:We are all paying, Husar. Such is the tragedy of it all. It was for real, it all actually really happened. War isn't glorious, or a game. It is nasty, brutal, dehumanising.
For a fun fact, since 1918, 650 Frenchmen have died clearing up the explosives from WWI. These are only the professionals on duty, excluding all those farmers and passers-by. We are still clearing it up, we are still paying for it. Large tracts of land are still toxic, a wasteland. This is costly. The generations of crippled, amimed, otherwise unfit for labour owing to war have only just retired, they had to be paid for. We are all paying for the wars, still.
There is no price tag that can be put on the people that grew up orhans, on the lives lost, on the tears of the survivors. On the destroyed art, towns, centres of culture. Whole communities have been wiped out, towns have never been repopulated, to this day.
This, not some adolescent blame game, is the reason for my anger. I hate the denial, the culture of silence. Or the fascination 'but they were really cool, look at those hot uniforms!', where it is never quite clear where fascination ends and outright sympathy begins.
As for Japan - I have some issues with the way Japan treats its modern history. In particular, I have a problem with the portrayal of Japan as a victim of WWII and the 1930's. Japan endlessly explores Hiroshima, makes this the central event in their war experience. The narrative is that several countries had a war over recources in East Asia, which Japan then lost because the Americans were more brutal and committed the atrocity of Hiroshima. Silly Nancy Pelosi bought it hook, line and sinker and came dangerously close to making the US apologize to Japan for WWII.
But Japan has forgiven the world. They will even forgive those female sex slaves they put in rape and torture camps filthy prostitutues, as long as these hysterical women will just shut up.
It is all very disgraceful.
We are all paying, Husar. Such is the tragedy of it all. It was for real, it all actually really happened. War isn't glorious, or a game. It is nasty, brutal, dehumanising.
For a fun fact, since 1918, 650 Frenchmen have died clearing up the explosives from WWI. These are only the professionals on duty, excluding all those farmers and passers-by. We are still clearing it up, we are still paying for it. Large tracts of land are still toxic, a wasteland. This is costly. The generations of crippled, amimed, otherwise unfit for labour owing to war have only just retired, they had to be paid for. We are all paying for the wars, still.
There is no price tag that can be put on the people that grew up orhans, on the lives lost, on the tears of the survivors. On the destroyed art, towns, centres of culture. Whole communities have been wiped out, towns have never been repopulated, to this day.
Yes, that's a good point, still remains that Western Germany quite outdeveloped the East and now we pay to get them up to our standards, while that's generally a good thing, they should have been there anyway. ~;)
This, not some adolescent blame game, is the reason for my anger. I hate the denial, the culture of silence. Or the fascination 'but they were really cool, look at those hot uniforms!', where it is never quite clear where fascination ends and outright sympathy begins.
But Kant says you have to differentiate between Louis the Frenchman and Louis the human, in the same way I differentiate between Göring the murderer and Göring the man with a good taste in uniforms*. Not all people may make that distinction but I think it's important to teach them to do that then. A good taste in uniforms should not alter the sentence one gets in a court of law either. But then him being a murderer should also not force me to say he a bad taste in uniforms.
Nice uniforms and tanks are not an excuse for anything, yet they can be very fascinating in their own way.
*I'm not sure who exactly chose the uniforms, I'm just using Göring here because he is one of the first who comes to mind.
edyzmedieval
11-17-2009, 23:18
What's a joycamptour anyway?
What's a joycamptour anyway?
I've never heard the phrase either, I figured it was a Romanian thing. Guess not!
It is .Org speak. Image Orwell's New Speak, but for the .Org. It is called "orgspeak".
They should sticky a list around here some where.
Cronos Impera
11-18-2009, 20:00
This thread isn't Oprah, its Orgah....so here are the jewels written by our wordsmiths.
writepol = moderators
joywrite = trolling
textual-assault=flaming
joywriter = troll
cameldung = ********,nonsense
gahspeak = spam/flaming when applied to banned people, brilliant comments when applied to the rest of the population
joycamptour = warning
joycampsitting = suspension of the account
joycampleaving = restoring an account
joycamper = suspended account
Balloon-worthy = an award or praise with or without value (depending upon intent)
BOLLOX = THE ONE WORD
a la moed = translation from french "served with Texas" 1) a thread in which the greatness of Texas or Texans is mentioned; 2) a ridiculously over-inflated opinion of one's self or rightness of one's argument.
yebut = pronounced yeah-but. The tendency of someone to find the negative and controversial (real or imagined) in even the most positive of discussions. The result is usually thread closure and examples of most, if not all, the joycamp words from the Orgah Newspeak Dictionary.
OPummm = noun, pronounced oh-pee-um. A thread with a title that tells you nothing about the topic.
Voice of Gah!d = an argument so absurd, the poster must be listening to a voice in his head, and it ain't the voice of logic or reason.
OrgSoc = Orgah Socialism
Noforumer = Banned Orgah
Minlove = Backroom
NoTruth = "Posted as is"
NewTruth = "Altered by writepol"
TediUS = A variation on the Godwin theme, it is the inevitable tendency of any thread to blame the United States for everything or to take a cheap shot at same for effect.
Texicitry - the tendency to always mention a certain state in one's post with utter disregard to the relevance of it to the topic being discussed.
Galloticitry - the ability to always mention a certain country in one's post and somehow make it seem relevant to the topic being discussed.
naughtigain = pronounced naw-ti-gan. 1) A noun referring to any recurring discussion or patron interaction that results in heated debate and will never yield a satisfactory result for either side. 2) A noun referring to any recurring discussion or patron interaction that results in heated debate and will never yield a satisfactory result for either side. 3) A noun referring to any recurring discussion or patron interaction that results in heated debate and will never yield a satisfactory result for either side.
Gregspeak - use of punnery
doublewrite - the paradoxal ability of making inconsistent posts, forgetting and remembering differing parts of it as the situation demands without being aware of it (I'd call this doublepost, but that's already a word in oldspeak)
Cronos Impera
11-18-2009, 20:09
So an OrgSoc announcement in the Watchtower should sound like:
Noforumer Tribesman gah-speaked Fragony in Ownpage. Voice of Gah'd nothingained baloon-worthy. He'll be joycampleaving next Big Bang.Tribesman unbellyfeels OrgSoc.
What does "balloon-worthy" mean?
Cronos Impera
11-18-2009, 20:56
A praise with or without value.
To translate the phrase in English:
His sensless posts yealded no results, annoyed people and ware without value.
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