Will cavalry be usable in this mod?

[hyphenatedD]

One of the problems I had with EB I was that cavalry was useful only to run down routing units, one time I managed to defeat a carthaginian bodyguard with a unit of levy hoplites. WHEN THE BODYGUARD OUTNUMBERED MY HOPLITES!!

Will there be any changes made to cavalry this time round such as increasing the charge bonus, decreasing the ability of spears to automatically kill cavalry in one hit or simply making cavalry stronger?

[Knight of Heaven]

Of what do you speak?? i think you got a litle confused to make that claim.
I mean, hoplites have spears, if bodyguards are only using melee, and not get out and charge is normal that inf with spears will own any cav... i think cav in eb1 is very usefull, if one knows when and how to deploy then. cleary any hoplite win against any type of cav, in melee over time. it isnt nonsence. it is i dare to say realistic... or do you want imortal bodyguards like in vannila RTW?? lol

[athanaric]

I'm sorry, but I'm getting excellent results from my cavalry. Most likely you haven't yet found out how to use it to maximum effect. Feel free to check Ibrahim's guide to cavalry for some ideas.

Note that the RTW AI is too stupid to routinely let its cavalry use their secondary weapons. This partly explains the weakness of AI controlled cavalry.

[A Very Super Market]

Were you playing on easy difficulty?

In any case, the AI does not use their cavalry properly. You can.

[IrishHitman]

Cavalry? Useless?

What heresy is this!
Cavalry is THE decisive factor in pretty much all my battles!
Whether I'm crushing the English as France, whether I'm crushing the English as Ireland, whether I'm crushing the barbarians as Makedonia or whether I'm crushing the barbarians as Rome....

[Ibrahim]

One of the problems I had with EB I was that cavalry was useful only to run down routing units, one time I managed to defeat a carthaginian bodyguard with a unit of levy hoplites. WHEN THE BODYGUARD OUTNUMBERED MY HOPLITES!!

Will there be any changes made to cavalry this time round such as increasing the charge bonus, decreasing the ability of spears to automatically kill cavalry in one hit or simply making cavalry stronger?

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

wow...just...wow.

the AI in RTW is a DF class 2*-don't expect even basic tactical understanding from it.

and in case you yourself can't use cavalry right, here is a pointer, from the very first post in my thread:


(this is not meant to be definitive or all knowing. its a basic guide afterall)

ok, first off, I have seen quite a few posts around here that complain that cavalry is too weak in EB. they argue that every time they charge, they get they're men butchered. having used AS and romani cavalry in EB, of every type and denomination, I can prove otherwise.

I will start simple, a one on one guide to a basic charge. then I will add more info and types of carges in EB, and the application of cavalry. Now, let the slaughter begin!

lesson 1: the charge:

many of you probably want to know what it really is (yeah I know you know). What I mean by that is: what qualifies as a charge? a charge has several important components or steps for it to work. they are:

1-type of cavalry: that determines if you can charge in the first place.
2-formation: if your cavalry can mount an effective charge, what do you want to do with them? want to use them as a hammer, a pile driver, or a enveloper/flanker?
3-speed and distance: simple. too close= no charge. too far= tired cavalry. either way you are:skull:
4-horns and gallop: the timnig if correct, will cause you to hear a horn go off, and lances couched.
5-follow through: that matters the most (believe it or not).:idea2: (ya I know its obvious).

for perposes of demonstration (and to make a point) this will be a head on charge on hoplitai.

part one: the type and formation are merged:
https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-14-59-12.jpg
as you see, I'm using AS atandard issue-the hetairoi. they can be put into two formations. this one on top is the hammer/piledriver approach, great for shattering a front line. chargin vcavalry are normally medium to cataphract grade cav. typified by use of the xyston, the longche, or the dreaded Kontos. they also ted to be well armored (30 and up, though not always).
https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-15-17-75.jpg
type two: a basic line. note that that is all purpose in form, and that the general is in the rear.

part two: speed and distance:

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-16-36-96.jpg
when you order an attack, do so starting with a simple trot. use gallup from moment one only if absolutely necessary. the last thing you want are tire horsemen and horses.
https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-17-47-04.jpg
order acceleration when about 150-200 m from the enemy. that way, you can have the charge happen more readily. it also keeps the men fresh as possible.

part 3: charge!
https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-17-57-82.jpg
if all goes right, then 4-10 (50-80m) secs before impact the charge order will be sounded. note the couched lances (the horn blew 2 secs earlier).

now all this is good and dandy, but remember: these units are meant to be used on masse. if you use 1 hetairoi/ strategos, you wont be able to hit the enemy as hard, and you will possibly be screwed.

part 4: now for the impact and follow through. if you have a weak stomach, do not look. content is very graphic. I f you think charges are too weak in EB, think again.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-18-17-42.jpg
this is the hoplitai unit before th chare. note that there are 83 men in that group, and they are fresh and eager.
https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-18-48-15.jpg
this is 2-10 secs after impact of the lead element of cavalry. note the losses on the enemy's side, as opposed to mine. I pulled my cav. out as the pic was taken.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-19-45-60.jpg

these are the bodies of the dead. note that engagement time was about 10 secs long, enough for the full force of impact to dissipitate.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-20-07-82.jpg
not how this man's horse is in the pic, though not near him. this gives you an idea of the impact. also says that RTW-BI is bugged..

the followup: regroup 1-200 trds from the enemy, then do it all over again minus the trotting

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-21-02-57.jpg
enemy before 2nd charge.

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-21-37-17.jpg
again, note losses on both sides. again the fight was short and sharp.

by now the enemy is reeling, and falling back. but he's still eager to fight. repeat the previous steps again and this will happen:
https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-22-45-31.jpg

https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-23-00-31.jpg

and of course, this:
https://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/Ibrahim_059/RomeTW-BI2008-05-0401-23-22-85.jpg

this can also shatter spartans in shield wall mind you. now EB cav is indeed not the all killing weapon in RTW vanilla, but I hope this has shown that they are far from wussies. note that both mine and enemy units are 0 exp, 0 armor up and shield too. my men out number there's, since one must use cavalry on masse. lastly realize that this is not meant for a head on attack. its meant for the flank or rear of the enemy
this concludes my lecture on the basic charge

its btw the very first post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=103172) in this thread




*I classify creationists/game AI in a A-DF scale. long story behind it..

[Parallel Pain]

If anything cavalry is too flexible in EB1. They are flexible enough to pull out of an engagement against enemy cavalry without much difficulty, which is complete nonsense.

All units, once committed, should have difficulty extracting themselves from the fight in an orderly fashion, especially against an enemy of the same speed, or even those of slightly slower. Such a maneuver should either be the result of a temporary rout, or if the unit doesn't break it should at least loose cohesion and suffer quite some casualty in the maneuver.

[Ibrahim]

If anything cavalry is too flexible in EB1. They are flexible enough to pull out of an engagement against enemy cavalry without much difficulty, which is complete nonsense.

All units, once committed, should have difficulty extracting themselves from the fight in an orderly fashion, especially against an enemy of the same speed, or even those of slightly slower. Such a maneuver should either be the result of a temporary rout, or if the unit doesn't break it should at least loose cohesion and suffer quite some casualty in the maneuver.

indeed.

but one must, most unfortunately, deal with the game mechanics, among other things.

[Ca Putt]

Cavalry is very devastating in M2TW the EB team will most likely see to weakening it a bit but still cavalry will probably be very dangerous to non spear units.
And Hoplitai haploi do tend to surprise the player. In a fairly decisive battle they saved my army from certain defeat by killing of 3 elephants (while loosing only 5 men themselves). so don't underestimate levy hoplites!!!

Important for cavalry to unfold their full potential is to give them enough space to take up speed before charging, as mentioned in the linked threads.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Cavalry is very devastating in M2TW the EB team will most likely see to weakening it a bit but still cavalry will probably be very dangerous to non spear units.
And Hoplitai haploi do tend to surprise the player. In a fairly decisive battle they saved my army from certain defeat by killing of 3 elephants (while loosing only 5 men themselves). so don't underestimate levy hoplites!!!

Important for cavalry to unfold their full potential is to give them enough space to take up speed before charging, as mentioned in the linked threads.

Haploi are one of the best levy troops, along with persian archers.

The Statement that cavalry is useless is really made out of thin air. Go play a faction like Pahlava and you'll be amazed what cavalry can do!

~Fluvius

[Cute Wolf]

:laugh4:

Just try receiving a full stack saka army and then said what did you get.... Easy Battle or Nightmare?

http://www.kaskus.us/images/smilies/s_sm_maho.gif

[Blxz]

*I classify creationists/game AI in a A-DF scale. long story behind it..

Care to elaborate? Sounds fun.

[Ibrahim]

Care to elaborate? Sounds fun.

its basically a series of letter codes, representing the level of stupidity, from least stupid (i.e intelligent) to most stupid/defiantly ignorant.


its basically a lot like this: A, B, C, D, M, F, FW, FT, FF, FB, DF. each of these is in turn divided into 3 parts, save the last one, which is divided into two. and no, the rating isn't totally subjective. I base it on several factors:

1-the hopelessness of a position one takes
2-the amount of stupid material they use
3-level of comprehension, as compared to dirt, and a 5 year old. the latter is of course more intelligent that dirt-at least I hope so:clown:
4-the amount of stupid moves they make (particularly useful for the AI)
5-how often they mut lie, or believe willfully in such.
6-how many times does one resort to childish behavior to prove their "point"
7-their IQ points.

the worst class is a DF class 1, defined as 1/1,000,000 the IQ of dirt or more. only 22 people won that "coveted" position. I will PM the names to anyone who wishe.


now, please back on topic.

[Knight of Heaven]

Cavalry? Useless?

What heresy is this!
Cavalry is THE decisive factor in pretty much all my battles!
Whether I'm crushing the English as France, whether I'm crushing the English as Ireland, whether I'm crushing the barbarians as Makedonia or whether I'm crushing the barbarians as Rome....
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Heresy! Blasphemer..... :whip::whip: :laugh4::laugh4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk
couldnt help it, nice to see you irish, how about a online battle? :juggle2:

[antisocialmunky]

now, please back on topic.

You brought it up.

Cav in MIITW is actually a little more balanced since they lose a more noticable amount of charge after hitting each unit.

[Apázlinemjó]

You brought it up.

Cav in MIITW is actually a little more balanced since they lose a more noticable amount of charge after hitting each unit.

And they hit everything with swords way faster than they should in real.

[EagerBeaver]

WHEN THE BODYGUARD OUTNUMBERED MY HOPLITES!!


this remembered me of Sun Tzu's quote used in EB
In war, numbers alone confer no advantage. Do not advance relying on sheer military power

on topic: I'm perfectly fine with the role of cavalry in EB1 :yes:

[seienchin]

I love cavallery controlled by the player. It feels awesome (Even, if many play like medieval knights, without having to use a saddle...^^) and the effect of soldiers flying around like toys looks cool.
But because cavallery is soooo weak in melee the Ki sucks at using them and therefore the system is a little bit messed up.
I hope the Ki in EBII is a little better, but since the MWII Vanilla had the AI use heavy lancers quite effective(At least not useless) I guess itll work better with EBs heavy shock lancers.

[Folgore]

You should really only use your cavalry in sustained melee fights against other cavalry or skirmisher infantry. Wear down all other units with infantry, so that when your cavalry moves in, the enemy begins to rout.

[antisocialmunky]

And they hit everything with swords way faster than they should in real.

What does that have to do with anything? The main issue with cav is their super ridiculous charge. In RTW, you can apply a full charge after you charge through your own infantry while in M2TW, anything that the horse hits before finishing the charge will cause it to lose a good deal of charge.

[Visarion]

:book: Haven't you heard, over and over again, that a direct charge with cavalry into spearmen is a bad ideea? Charge them into the flank or rear if you have to! A even better solution is to engage spearmen from the front with a heavy infantry unit and then charge with cavalry or light infantry into the flank or rear... All Total War fans know that! :smash: :) I use Hannibal, Alexander and Napoleon warfare strategies! ;)