PDA

View Full Version : Cannae ... the facts?



Wellington
02-06-2003, 02:13
Thought I'd post this as a seperate thread in order to elicit some discussion ... just my own opinion of Cannae.



The Background - Roman legions
------------------------------

At the time of the 2nd Punic war a Roman legion consisted of 4,000 infantry and 200 cavalry. Each legion was always supplemented by allies who provided at least the same number of infantry and considerably more cavalry (3:1). Therefore a "Legion" can be considered to be around 10,000 men, 10% being cavaly and around 40-45% being Roman citizens. Many ancient sources when refering to a legion of this period use the term to include both Roman and allied components.

Romes legions comprised not only citizens of Rome but also soldiers levied from several Latin cities that had been granted Roman citizenship. Romes allies were generally other Italian City States that, whilst not being granted Citizenship, paid tribute to Rome (not always volentarily). Rome specified the numbers and composition of troops that such allies were expected to provide. Such allies may have been equipped and fought in a similar manner to the Roman legions.

A Roman legion consisted of Velites (light troops/skirmishers), Hastatii, Principes and Triarii (the Veteran troops armed with long spears instead of pilum). The proportions were roughly equal - perhaps the Velites comprised 30% of a legion. The cavalry, both Roman and allied, consisted of the weathier classes - people who could afford to keep and equip a horse.

A Roman legion generally fought with the Velites out in front and 3 lines of heavy infantry - a 1st line of Hastatii, a 2nd line of Principes and a 3rd line of Triarii. The Triarii were only ever comitted to battle if the Hatatii and Principes had been defeated.

Roman forces generally operated in pairs of legions. A standard Roman consular army of this period comprised 4 legions which, together with allies, consisted of around 40,000 men at full strength. The standard deployment of a Roman army was Roman legions in the centre, allies on either flank and the cavalry on the wings.


Hannibal arrives in Italy
-------------------------

In 218BC Hannibal crossed the Alps and was confronted by a Roman army under Scipio/Sempronius (4 legions 1st/2nd/3rd/4th). A small cavalry engagement was fought by the Tacinus river (November 218BC) that Hannibal won. Polybius tells us the Roman cavalry "lost many men".

One month later the battle of the Trebia was fought. Rome fielded 16,000 men and 20,000 allies, were obviously weak in cavalry as a result of the Tacinus engagement, and were utterely defeated. Only 10,000 men escaped. Roman dead numbered 15,000 with around 10,000 prisoners being taken. Hannibal sold the Roman prisoners into slavery and released all allied prisoners after telling them "My fight is with Rome - not her allies".

A few months later, April 217BC, a second Roman army under Flaminius, 30,000 men consisting of 4 legions (2 full strength, 10th/11th, and the remains of the 3rd/4th) and allies, was ambushed by Hannibal at Lake Trasimene. Very few escaped. Rome lost 15,000 dead and around the same number prisoners. Hannibal sold 7,000 Romans to Greek slave traders and again released the allied prisoners.

Whilst Flaminius army was being slaughtered at Lake Trasimene the consul Geminius was marching with a further 4 legions (12th/13th and the remains of the 1st/2nd) to join him. Knowing Flaminius was weak in cavalry Geminius sent all 4,000 cavalry attached to his army ahead to join Flaminius. 4 days after Lake Trasimene was fought Hannibal sent Maharbal to ambush this cavalry on the Via Flaminia. Both Polybius and Livy say all this cavalry was lost (Polybius tells us 2,000 were killed and 2,000 captured). Geminius, upon hearing this, immediately returned to Rome with his 4 legions - minus the cavalry contingent.

All Roman prisoners taken in these battles were offered back to Rome for ransom. Rome refused, and Hannibal sold them into slavery.


Within 6 months Hannibal had totally destroyed 6 Roman legions (and allies), destroyed almost all the cavalry attached to 8 Roman legions (and allies), and had undoubtedly caused questions to be asked by Romes allies.

Hannibal re-equiped his army with all the captured Roman weapons/armour, moved into Central/Southern Italy and spent the next 12 months eliciting support from discontented Italian states.


The run up to Cannae
--------------------

Following these disasters the Senate appointed Fabius as Dictator for 6 months, as was the custom in times of danger.

Fabius immediately raised 4 new legions (14th/15th/16th/17th) and leaving the 16th and 17th to train in Rome marched to Geminius with the 14th/15th. Taking command of Geminius army Fabius now had a field army of 47,000 infantry and around 2,500 cavalry. This army kept in close contact with Hannibal but only a few minor skirmishes occured. Both Fabius and Minucius (who assumed command after Fabius was recalled to Rome) were reluctant to engage Hannibal. It is quite likely the morale of the Roman army was poor, especially considering the events of the last year.

After Fabius 6 month dictorship expired the Senate appointed new Consuls and a further levy was raised in order to increase the strength of the legions and create even more new ones This new levy was used to create 4 new legions (18th/19th/20th/21st) and also to increase the standard size of a legion from 4,000 to 5,000 men, and to increase the cavalry contingent from 200 to 300. Two of these new legions (18th/19th) were sent to the Po valley to cut off Hannibals Celtic reinforcements. The other 2 (20th/21st) remained in Rome to guard the city.

As both Fabius and Minucius had been reluctant to engage Hannibal with their current, somewhat raw, field army (1st/2nd/12th/13th/14th/15th legions), this levy was probably deemed necessary not only to replace all losses but also as a show of strength. Additionally it was probably also intended to increase the armies morale and to 'encourage' Romes allies.

As a result, Rome now had 16 legions (160,000 men including allies) in Italy, but over half of the manpower were new recruits, quite probably underarmed, and as yet 'untested'.

Here we have 3 points of interest. First, it is most unlikely (considering the scale of the levies over the last 12 months) that Rome had the means to thoroughly equip all these new soldiers. It is quite probable that the percentage of light troops (Velites) in the new 5,000 strength legions was greater than the standard 30% Second, it also unlikely that the cavalry attached to these legions were up to strength. Considering the time it takes to train cavalry as opposed to infantry it is reasonable to conclude they were of poor quality. Third, in order to create and train 8 new legions in the space of 12 months each legion must have been comprised of a cadre of experienced soldiers and officers. Such a cadre could only have been provided from the existing 8 legions. In other words it's fair to assume all 16 legions in Italy comprised both veteran troops and a fair percentage of the new recruits - as opposed to 8 'veteran' legions and 8 new legions.

The Senate had by now decided that Hannibal must be brought to battle and defeated and consequently the consuls Paullus and Varro were sent, together with 2 additional legions (the 16th and 17th that had been training in Rome), to take command of Geminius army and to engage Hannibal. Thus the Roman field army now consisted of 2 consular armies (8 legions plus allies). This was the 1st time in Romes history that such a huge force had been assembled and was double the size of all previous consular armies (4 legions). Polybius informs us that this huge army numbered 80,000 infantry and slightly over 6,000 cavalry.

One interesting point. No Roman had ever had experience of commanding such a huge force in the field. In fact, there was no established command structure for such a force and the Roman practice of allotting command of this army to each consul on alternate days must only have added to such command and control problems.

By August 216BC Paullus and Varro had caught up with Hannibal by the river Ofanto where Hannibals army had been encamped for some weeks. The consuls established two camps, one large one on the same side of the river (Paullus camp) as Hannibal (Northern bank) and a smaller one on the opposite bank (Varros camp). The intention was obviously to prevent Hannibal foraging.

The following day Hannibal deployed his forces on the Northern bank, where there was ample room on the plain for cavalry manouvers. The Romans refused to engage him. This is quite revealing as it infers Hannibal also had a plan for fighting on the Northern bank had the Roman army offered battle.

The following morning Paullus forded the river with most of his force (leaving 10,000 men to guard the larger camp) and joined Varro on the Southern bank. This bank was quite narrow, only 2 kilometres wide, and the 2 consuls deployed the vast Roman army between the river and the nearby hills ... upon which lay the small town of Cannae.

Seeing this Hannibal also crossed the river and deployed his troops.

The scene was now set for Romes greatest military disaster.



Carthaginian Forces
-------------------

Most ancient and contempory sources agree on the general composition of Hannibals army at Cannae, 40,000 infantry and 10,000 cavalry. Whilst many of his African and Spanish troops had been lost crossing the Alps he had been joined by a substantial number of Celts. By this time all of his Elephants had been lost.

Hannibals infantry comprised 8,000 African extra heavy infantry (Pikemen), 6,000 Spanish heavy/medium infantry and around 14,000 Celtic medium infantry. The remaining 12,000 would have been African/Spanish/Celtic skirmishers.

One interesting point. Most contemporary and ancient sources consider Spanish infantry of this period to be medium infantry. Polybius specifically refers to them, at Cannae, as heavy. Is this because they had been rearmed with the Roman armour captured at Trebia/Trasimene?

The cavalry comprised 4,000 Numidian light cavalry, 2,000 Spanish medium cavaly and 4,000 Celtic medium cavalry.

Over the last 18 months Hannibals army had won 2 major engagements and 2 minor, had accumulated a considerable amount of booty over the last year and had seen the army of Fabius reluctant to engage them in open battle. We can safely assume the morale, experience and confidence of Hannibals army would be very high. This would be a major factor at Cannae.


Roman Forces
------------

The composition of the Roman forces at Cannae deserve a closer look. Polybius and other ancient sources are in close agreement on the strength (80,000 infantry and 6,000+ cavalry). However, the composition of the 8 legions present at Cannae must have comprised a good percentage of new recruits. Livy tells us "almost two thirds were raw recruits", but how were these recruits alotted amongst the legions present.

As the levies of the previous year had increased the strength of a Roman legion to 5000 Infantry and 300 Cavalry this tells us that the old legions that had not yet seen action (12th/13th) now comprised at least 20% new recruits. Also the 1st and 2nd legions that had been decimated at the Trebia had by now been brought back up to strength. If we consider these legions to have been at half strength (2,000?) they now presumably comprised 60% new recruits. Furthermore, the remaining 4 legions were new ones comprised of levies; ie: new recruits that had had no more than 1 years training.

Even if we are to be generous and consider the likelyhood of cadres being removed from existing legions in order to form the new ones (thus giving the new legions say 1,000 experienced troops), we can still conclude that the composition of the Roman legions at Cannae would be roughly -

4 'new' legions -

14th - 5,000 Infantry, 300 cavalry (4,300 new recruits)
15th - 5,000 Infantry, 300 cavalry (4,300 new recruits)
16th - 5,000 Infantry, 300 cavalry (4,300 new recruits)
17th - 5,000 Infantry, 300 cavalry (4,300 new recruits)

4 'old' legions -

1st - 5,000 Infantry, 300 cavalry (3,300? new recruits)
2nd - 5,000 Infantry, 300 cavalry (3,300? new recruits)
12th - 5,000 Infantry, 300 cavalry (1,100 new recruits)
13th - 5,000 Infantry, 300 cavalry (1,100 new recruits)

This gives us 42,400 Roman troops of which around 26,000 were new recruits.

Hence, of 42,400 Roman troops only around 16,400 (40%) had any experience. This is consistent with Livy. If we further consider the minimum 30% Velites this leaves us with just 12,000 experienced heavy infantry - less than 30% of the total fielded. Ok, the figures may be open to question but the percentages must be close.

Polybius figures leave us with Romes allies fielding a further 40,000 infantry and 4,000 cavalry. How reliable these troops were is open to question. Considering Romes recent defeats, the inexperience of the Roman army, the presence of Hannibal's army in their own territory and the fact they knew Hannibal would release all none-Roman prisoners it is highly unlikely they had any real incentive to sacrifice their lives for Rome.

We must also remember that of this total of 86,000 around 10,000 were still on the Northern bank and had instructions to attack Hannibals camp. As it is highly unlikely Paullus would have allotted a task to just allies we can safely presume this force was 1 Roman legion together with a similar number of allies (but see the comments later). This even further reduces the number of experienced Roman troops that formed up on the Southern bank.

Therefore, 70,000 Roman infantry and 6,000 cavalry, the vast majority being either unreliable or inexperienced, faced Hannibals veteran army of 50,000.


The Deployment
--------------

The Roman army deployed as normal. Legions in the center flanked by the allies, allied cavalry on the left wing (between the legions and the hills) and Roman cavalry on the right wing (between the legions and the river).

As for the legions, Polybius states "the maniples were grouped more closely than usual and the depth was several times greater than the width." As a maniple consisted of around 120 soldiers this tells us two things. First the infantry was 'packed' closer together than normal. Considering the number of soldiers present and the maximum 2 kilometres width of the Southern bank, this sounds logical. Second, the maniples were drawn up in depth. As the standard maniple deployment was 20x6 (width/depth) this different formation must have been more like 6x20.

If we draw a rough analogy with Napoleonic formations the standard Roman practice was for the legions to adapt the "British line". At Cannae they formed up more like a "French column".

Why draw the maniples up in such depth? Maybe the reason lies in the lack in experienced troops. By adopting such a formation this ensured the front ranks comprised the veterans which was presumably necessary if the Roman tactic was to batter through the Carthaginean centre as soon as possible. The unfortunate side effect of such a formation would be the lack of experienced soldiers on either the flanks or the rear.


As for the Carthaginians. Hannibal arrayed his Spanish and Celtic infantry in the centre, interspaced in units of 100-500, and his African infantry on both flanks.The Numidian cavalry were deployed on the right wing (facing the Roman allied cavalry), Spanish/Celtic cavalry on the left wing (facing the Roman cavalry).



The Battle
----------

I have no intention of describing the battle in detail, most of you will know that. Just the salient points that many people tend to overlook.

Livy tells us that just before the battle started 500 Numidian cavalry approached the Roman lines, threw their weapons on the ground and appeared to have defected. They were sent to the Roman rear. Whenthe battle strted they picked up their weapons and attcked the romans from rear causing chaos. Whilst this would appear to be a typical Hannibal tactic I doubt this ouccred. Livy was prone to exageration in an attempt 'excuse' Roman failure. Also Polybius does not mention this, which leaves the incident suspect.

Once the battle on the Southern bank started the 10,000 Roman troops on the Northern bank then attacked Hannibals camp. It appears quite likely that this was a ruse by Paullus/Varro intended to draw some of Hannibals troops back to the camp and hence reduce his numbers on the Southern bank. It did'nt work. Hannibal had left only 2/3,000 troops (probably skirmishers) to guard the camp and he totally ignored this engagement, even though the Romans were getting the upper hand there.

Most of the Roman and allied cavaly on the wings chose to fight on foot. This is not only confirmed by Polybius but is consistent with Polybius telling us that less that 400 cavalry escaped with their lives. This preference to fight as infantry appears to confirm the poor quality and training of Romes cavalry at Cannae. Once the Roman cavalry on the wings had been defeated the Numidian cavalry pursued the routers, and probably the Velites too who (now missile less) would have retired to the rear. The Spanish and Celtic cavalry then charged the Roman legions rear.

By this time the Spanish/Celts had lost much ground to the legions 'battering ram' with the unfortunate effect that their flanks were now exposed to the fresh African infantry. Considering the depth of the Roman formation the Africans now flanked the legions frontage. Hannibal had obviously planned this from the outset.

Hannibals Africans now turned and attacked the Roman flanks. It is probable the Africans came into contact with Romes allies on the flanks. It's more than likely both Roman flanks routed quite quickly and considering the closely packed infantry the Roman legions in the centre had no opportunity to come to grips with the enemy. Panic quickly spreads in an army, and consider the lack of experience in the centre it's same to assume the whole mass of infantry collapsed and routed. However, considering the closely packed formations, both flanks routing inwards, the unusual depth of the formation and the arrival of Hannibals cavalry in the rear, they would have been falling over each other in their haste to escape. Perhaps this explains the high casualty figures at Cannae.

One interesting point is the failure of the Roman rear line, normally the veteran Triarii, to turn face and confront the cavalry attacking them. Maybe they also panicked. Peter Connelly ("Rome and Greece at War") suggest that it was the Triarii who comprised the 10,000 on the Northern bank as it was the custom for the Triarii to guard the Roman camp. Personally I find this hard to believe. It's unlikely Varro or Paullus would have detached some of their best troops for the purposes of a ruse. It appears more probable that the Triarii were actually in the front ranks as opposed to the rear. This would be consistent both with the battering ram tactic employed and the collapse of the rear when confronted by Hannibals cavalry.

Once victory had been secured on the Southern bank, Hannibal led a force across the river killing 2,000 and capturing the other 8,000 of Romans who had been attacking the Carthaginian camp. Considering the slaughter these troops had witnessed on the far bank it's unlikely they put up much of a fight.

What of the consuls? Paullus died attemping to rally the centre, together with Geminius. Varro fled/routed along with a few allied cavalry and returned to Rome.


Casualties
----------

Hannibal took around 15,000 prisoners. The allies were released and the 7,000 Roman prisoners sold to Greek slave traders (the Senate again refusing to pay a ransom for them&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. Around 10,000 Romans escaped and these were later formed into 2 new legions and sent to Sicily as a punishment for defeat. Ancient sources put the dead at between 50,000 and 60,000 and most contemporary sources now agree with this figure. It seems likely that a number of allies also escaped which probably explains the discrepancy if you choose to accept the lower casualty figure.

Hannibal losses are quoted as being 6000; mainly Celt's.


The Aftermath
-------------

In three battles Rome had lost around 100,000 men. Another Dictator was named who promptly raised another levy of all men over 17 years of age and formed 2 more legions (22nd/23rd). Three further legions were formed. Two from 8,000 slaves and another from 6,000 debtors and criminals. After Cannae Roman manpower was stretched to it's limits.

For the next 14 years Hannibal remained in Italy, fostering the Carthaginian cause, and was never again seriously challenged by a Roman army on Italian soil.

Whilst Cannae was a devastating military blow to Rome, the Political ramifications were even worse. The whole of the Southern Appennies defected to Hannibal thus depriving Rome of 20-25% of it's traditional allied manpower and ensuring a steady flow of Italian reinforcements for Hannibals forces in Italy. Many Italian City States overthrew their Oligarchies and adapted the Democratic model of Hannibal and Carthage (Carthago had been originally founded by Greeks - hence the term Liby-Phoenitian used to describe Carthaginians).


The Question of command
-----------------------

One final question remains to be answered about Cannae. Which consul was really in command on the day?

Both Livy and Polybius state it was Varro, but considering Polybius close association with the Paulli family and the probability that Livy was merely repeating the words of Polybius, are we safe to believe this.

Peter Connelly raises a very good point when he reminds us that "the two positions of status" in a Roman field army was command of the legions and command of the Roman cavalry. At Cannae it was Paullus who commanded the Roman cavaly whilst Varro commanded the allied cavalry. The legions remained under the command of Geminius.

This tells us two things. As Geminius had been in command of the army for the last 6/9 months it was wise, considering his experience, to leave him commanding the centre - the 1st position of prestige. It was Paullus who assumed the 2nd position of prestige - not Varrus. Also, Paullus "choose to die" attempting to rally the centre. Considering he had been wounded early in the battle, but had not retired, this may suggest Paullus felt personally responsible for his failure and prefered death to dishonour.

Upon Varrus return to Rome he was welcomed by the Senate and remained in office throughout the reminder of the 2nd Punic War. He was not disgraced.


Conclusion
----------

Rome lost Cannae long before the battle was fought. Romes pride in refusing to pay Hannibal for the return of the prisoners taken at the Trebia and Lake Trasimene deprived Rome of the services of around 15,000 experienced troops. Hoping to replace such experience with numbers was foolhardy.

This left Paullus and Varro with an army that 'on paper' appeared impressive, but in reality was sadly deficient in morale, experience and cavalry. If we consider the magnitude of the levies it was probably also seriously deficient in armour and heavy infantry, and quite probably comprised a higher than normal percentage of Velites. Romes allies were also suspect. The serious losses of cavalry, for which they provided 75% of the Roman total, prior to Cannae must have hurt, and such allies would be well aware of the true nature of the Roman legions that accompanied them.

The Senates insistance that this army engage Hannibal is a classic example of politics interfering with the realities of the strategical military situation. Neither Varro nor Paullus could have devised successful tactics at Cannae with the means at their disposal.

Considering the lack of experience in the Roman army, increasing the depth of the maniples to ensure the experienced men were in the 1st few ranks, and hoping to batter through the center of the Carthaginian line using these experienced troops as a spearhead was the only sensible option.

Hannibal was obviously aware of the composition of the Roman army and his brilliance is shown by his refusal to leave a strong force to guard his camp, the ruse (if it really occured) with the 500 Numidian 'deserters', his eagerness to engage the Romans on poor terrain (whilst knowing the wind would be blowing in their faces), the maneovering of his African heavy infantry and his obvious command and control abilities that ensured his African infantry and Cavalry commanders knew the plan and adhered to it.

Hannibal had also devised his plans for an engagement on either the Northern or Southern bank long before the Romans even arrived. He KNEW he would win, regardless of the location of the forthcoming battle, regardless of the numbers involved and regardless of the Roman commander on the day.

Varro has taken much criticism from Polybius, less from Livy. Considering the magnitude of the defeat the Historians had to hold someone responsible. Then again, was Varro really in command on that fateful day, or was it Paullus? Perhaps we shall never know.



Welly

Michiel de Ruyter
02-06-2003, 11:05
Well written and interesting piece.. A good read...

Just one minor point. Carthage was founded by the Phoenicians (who were not Greeks &#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif... IIRC its mother city was Tyre, in present day Lebanon. The name Punic used by the Romans is a Latinization of Phoenician.

Exile
02-06-2003, 20:52
very interesting. thanks for taking the imte to post suc ha thorough account.

I've heard that eventually the Romans hatched the idea to attack Carthage and Hannibal was recalled there to defend. On the defensive Hannibal did not enjoy such success against the Romans and Carthage fell. Is that true?

BlackWatch McKenna
02-06-2003, 20:58
Good show, W.

Your main points are consistent with what I have learned. As I read along, I had my "mental checklist" up - and you hit all the topics.

I want to do a bit of searching on the Triari Issue, though. It's a mystery: Front/Back/Camp? We may never know.

As for the African Veterans: Pike or Pilum (old school equipment or re-trained Roman Style). Again - another great discussion.

Thanks

~BW

BlackWatch McKenna
02-06-2003, 21:06
http://home.pacbell.net/ittybear/toops_gif_small/inf_spaniard.gif ......http://home.pacbell.net/ittybear/toops_gif_small/inf_celt.gif

Below is an image from http://www.roman-empire.net/army/cannae.html
which shows the formation used by Hannibal -the "bow" started Convex - and ended Concave. Hannibal was stationed behind the "bow" of interspersed Iberian and Celtic troops (the thought being - they would try to "out do" each other - and fight that much better.

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/pics/chart-cannae-1-i.jpg

As the middle fell back (steadied, of course, by Hannibal being right there with them) - the Romans moved forward.... And the Vets did their Flanking Thing.

~BW

71-hour Ahmed
02-06-2003, 22:19
Exile;
they did the same back to Hannibal

Battle of Zama (http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/zama.htm)

Hannibal tried the same again as at Cannae, but lacked the troop quality, while the Romans were ready this time.

Sort of supports Wellingtons thoughts this - when the Romans did use an experienced and equiped army they won.

Very nice to read Wellington, keep it up http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Red Peasant
02-06-2003, 22:31
If I remember rightly (and I'm sure someone will correct if I'm wrong) L. Aemilius Paullus was the senior consul, i.e. he had topped the voting in the elections. This would have technically made him the senior commander in the field when the ostensibly co-equal consuls combined their commands. However, a strong-willed and antagonistic junior consul could insist on his own imperium, but this doesn't seem to have happened at Cannae.

It is significant that the Senate commended C. Terentius Varro for "not despairing of the Republic", after all he did keep his head enough to do good service by rallying many survivors. The leading political elite could have hung the man out to dry, being considered a political upstart. The good of the Republic and the need for national unity was more important than petty political vendettas....a principle lost on late the late Republican Senate.

BlackWatch McKenna
02-06-2003, 22:34
Zama is an example of Carthaginian Politics coming home to roost.

The Numidians, too long under the Carthaginian yoke, defected to the Romans side (Rome had much better politicians, it seems. Plus, it's the old "what did the Romans ever do for us" argument). In the end, it was the Numidians who came back and dealt the death blow to Hannibal's army. What if they had never defected....

Also, Speaking of Hannibal's army at that time, ..."But more than half of his infantry were raw recruits, the remainder being his Italian campaign veterans and a few Ligurians and Gauls. Hannibal was particularly weak in cavalry, the arm on which he had depended in so many of his great victories. Consequently he was unable to employ his favorite maneuvers. "
http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/Zama-battle.htm

After 14 years of Hannibal kicking Rome's best troops around the penninsula, the Romans finally found a General who could figure out how to beat him. (Sheesh- after 14 losing seasons, you would think someone was paying attention.)

~BW

Exile
02-07-2003, 05:58
Thank you 71-hour Ahmed. The piece about the elephants was amazing and this:

The result was a complete defeat for the Carthaginians, who lost 20,000 dead and 15,000 or 20,000 became prisoners. Roman losses are unclear but were probably around1,500 soldiers with another 4,000 wounded.

wow, a lopsided battle indeed. Still, from what I know and have heard here, Hannibal deserves a place among the best field commanders of all time IMO.

deejayvee
02-07-2003, 07:31
A lot of ancient battles have lopsided casualty figures and the reason for this is because the majority of the actual killing happens after you've already won the battle ie chasing down the routers.

Rosacrux
02-07-2003, 07:36
Great job Wellington. I'll have to disagree about the founders of Karthago though, it was Phoenician from Tyre.

Otherwise... keep it up.


A question: Having defeated the bulk of the Roman legions and having stretched the roman manpower pool to it's limits, what kept Hannibal from attacking Rome? He had the army (40.000+ of seasoned veterans), he had already stripped Rome from most of it's allies, and what he lacked in siege equipment and know-how he could easily aquire from local sources (especially if he could get some help from Greek Syracusae - famous for their engineers).

So... was it politics that kept him ante portae and not inside the walls of Rome? Did he thought that the Roman scarecrow should be left intact, to reinforce his own position? And in that case, what about his famous "hatred of Rome", wouldn't that be a factor?

Wellington
02-07-2003, 09:05
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Feb. 07 2003,00:36)]

Quote[/b] ]I'll have to disagree about the founders of Karthago though, it was Phoenician from Tyre.


Whoops - quite correct. Carthage was founded by "Canaanites" not Greeks. Sorry


Quote[/b] ]A question: Having defeated the bulk of the Roman legions and having stretched the roman manpower pool to it's limits, what kept Hannibal from attacking Rome? He had the army (40.000+ of seasoned veterans), he had already stripped Rome from most of it's allies, and what he lacked in siege equipment and know-how he could easily aquire from local sources (especially if he could get some help from Greek Syracusae - famous for their engineers).

So... was it politics that kept him ante portae and not inside the walls of Rome? Did he thought that the Roman scarecrow should be left intact, to reinforce his own position? And in that case, what about his famous "hatred of Rome", wouldn't that be a factor?

A very good question. I suspect the answer can be found by examining at Hannibals actions in Italy.

Hannibal crossed the Alps in order to take the war into the enemies backyard, but was he really intent on destroying Roman civilization? So the ancient sources would have us believe.

However, after the Trebbia, Lake Trasimene and Cannae Hannibal always released the allied prisoners and always offered the captured Romans (experienced troops) back to Rome for ransom. I would suggest these are NOT the actions of an individual who is waging total war. I suspect the oft quoted statement that Hannibal's intent was the total destruction of Rome is a little wide of the mark.

We should consider that Carthage and Rome were not just enemies. These were also two 'civilised' powers. Maybe Hannibal had some respect for Rome. During 14 years in Italy he never once laid waste to an Italian city or massacred it's inhabitents. Hannibal was fighting a war of suppression in Italy - not Total War. His strategy was to elicit the support of Romes allies and by doing so further the Carthaginian cause. Remember also that Carthage was principally a trading nation - not a Dictatorial agressor.

The only report we have (Polybius) of Hannibal massacreing a civilian population was in the Alps when a Celtic tribe refused to join him. Whether or not this really occured is suspect, as I would offer it would be both contrary to his later actions in Rome and inconsistent with the support and loyalty he elicited from other Celtic tribes.

As the intention was to elicit Italian support, sacking Rome may well have had the reverse effect. Maybe he was specifically instructed not to do so. Personally, I suspect it was not in his nature. Considering the number of Celt's in his army, who DID foster a hatred of Rome, any such assualt on the city could well have turned into a bloodbath which would not be in Carthaginian interests. Hannibal would have realised this. Not only was he a brilliant military commander, he was also a shrewd politicion who understood the wider issues of the time.

Furthermore, Hannibal was no barbarian. He was a civilized professional, and a Democrat.

Livy also writes that upon his recall to Carthage (14 years later) Hannibal had the Italian soldiers who refused to accompany him to Africa slaughtered. Absolute rubbish. Hannibal would have done no such thing, and his African soldiers who had been comrades in arms with such Italians for 14 years would undoubtadly have refused to implement such an order. To perform such an act after 14 years nurturing the Italians would be ridiculous, and ridiculous Hannibal was not. These are merely the words of the victors attempting to rewrite history and portray the vanquished in a poor light.

As for Hannibals "Hatred of Rome", again these are only the words of pro-Roman historians, and we have no testimony from Hannibal himself. His actions, however, would'nt appear to support such a view.

Just my opinion Then again, opinions are like arseholes - we all have one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Welly

Wellington
02-07-2003, 09:12
Quote[/b] (BlackWatch McKenna @ Feb. 06 2003,13:58)]I want to do a bit of searching on the Triari Issue, though. It's a mystery: Front/Back/Camp? We may never know.

As for the African Veterans: Pike or Pilum (old school equipment or re-trained Roman Style). Again - another great discussion.
The Triarii at Cannae Wow. We could all spend half a lifetime examining this issue - but it's an IMMENSELY interesting question.

I'll post something to this thread a bit later regarding this - by which time we'll all probably be sick of thinking about Cannae http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Welly

Rosacrux
02-07-2003, 09:36
Wellington

It's an interesting theory, nevertheless, not an arsie one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But I think you are assuming a bit too much about Hannibals character - we have to follow the sources whenever possible.

And, remember (as you prolly know pretty well) that "civilized" in those times was something completely different than "civilized" nowadays.

Wellington
02-07-2003, 10:28
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Feb. 07 2003,02:36)]Wellington

It's an interesting theory, nevertheless, not an arsie one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But I think you are assuming a bit too much about Hannibals character - we have to follow the sources whenever possible.

And, remember (as you prolly know pretty well) that "civilized" in those times was something completely different than "civilized" nowadays.
Rosacrux,

Very valid points.

Yeah, I know what your saying and that was only an opinion - that may well we totally inaccurate.

Mind you, whilst any assumption must be based on the evidence we have at hand (as you quite rightly point out) it's sometimes necessary to examine who wrote the "evidence" and why I still support my opinion (my arsehole ) that we have little convincing or reliable evidence to support the view that Hannibal was a 'blood-thirsty barbarian'

As for "civilized" - absolutely. I could'nt agree more. Warfare brings out the best in some and the worst in others. It's all a question of degree.

If we consider the various conflicts in our times (over the last 50 years or so) any definition of the word "civilized" is open to interpretation.

Without wishing to bring current Politics into this thread (but as I can't help noticing you appear to be from the Balkans) the last 10 years conflicts in the Balkans should only serve to show that one mans civilization is anothers barbarity.

To return to the topic, as we both basically agree that he could have done it after Cannae (with the army at his disposal), why do you suspect Hannibal did'nt take Rome?

Welly

Wellington
02-07-2003, 10:40
Quote[/b] (Exile @ Feb. 06 2003,22:58)]Thank you 71-hour Ahmed. The piece about the elephants was amazing and this:

The result was a complete defeat for the Carthaginians, who lost 20,000 dead and 15,000 or 20,000 became prisoners. Roman losses are unclear but were probably around1,500 soldiers with another 4,000 wounded.

wow, a lopsided battle indeed. Still, from what I know and have heard here, Hannibal deserves a place among the best field commanders of all time IMO.
Exile,

Zama was no walkover for the Romans.

Hannibal was not only a brilliant tacticion and an outstanding strategist, but a very competent politicion as well. By remaining in Italy for 14 years he had effectively drawn out the war by reducing Romes allied manpower. Roman strategy was to avoid Hannibal but win the war for Spain, and they did - eventually. Scipio, learned his craft in Spain during these 14 years but the fact that it took 14 years for Rome to produce both a General and army capable of confronting Hannibal is testament to Hannibals strategy.

After Spain fell Scipio crossed over to Africa with his veteran army, defeated 2 Carthaginian armies there and laid waste to the area. This was not the Roman army of Cannae but a new generation of legions. Once in Africa the Numidian prince Masinissa joined Scipio and Carthage recalled Hannibal from Italy. It's interesting to consider why Scipio did not return to Rome and confront Hannibal on Italian soil. Maybe by invading Africa he was taking a page out of Hannibals book. What is it they say ... "there is no greater compliment than copying the work/actions of another" (or something like that)?

The sources say Hannibal landed in Africa in 202BC with around 12,000 veteran troops. This force was reinforced by the remains of the 2 Carthaginian armies Scipio had defeated in the previous year and probably also a Carthaginian levy.

Scipio and Hannibal met at Zama, the battle that decided the 2nd Punic war, but this time Hannibal was sadly lacking in cavalry. Also, the Numidians had allied themselves with Rome and Scipio had the added advantage of 4,000 Numidian cavalry and 6,000 Numidian light infantry. The battle started with an unsuccessful attack by Hannibals elephants. Scipios veterans were by now well versed in dealing with such beasts (having spent 14 years fighting Carthaginians in both Spain and more recently in Africa). Following this the Roman/allied cavalry (under Laelius) and the Roman Numidian Cavalry (under Masinissa) charged and routed their opposite numbers and then continued in pursuing the routers from the field.

Then the infantry got to grips and the battle swung too and fro for quite a while. One interesting aspect is the use Scipio made of his Triarii, using a complex manouver to bring them onto the flanks of the Hastatii/Principes and assisting in the main battle. At Zama the Triarii were not used as a mere reserve but but soon in the thick of it. Still, the battle was no 'forgone conclusion'.

Polybius says of the infantry battle "Since they were equally matched not only in courage, but in warlike spirit and in weapons, the issue hung for a long while in the balance." Hardly a one-sided battle

It was some time, and no doubt after both infantry bodies were physically exhausted, that Scipio's cavalry returned. Polybius describes the arrival of the cavalry as follows "... but at length the cavalry of Masinissa and Laelius returned from their pursuit and BY A STOKE OF FORTUNE AT THE CRUCIAL MOMENT." (my capitals).

The words of Polybius, who was one of the Scipio families greatest 'admirers', should tell us something. Zama was no walkover for Scipio. It was 'touch and go' for quite a while.

However, the return of Scipios cavalry, hitting Hannibals Carthaginians in the rear, decided the issue. There is little doubt Zama was a long drawn-out affair that, in Polybius words, was finally decided NOT by Scipios veteran infantry but rather by the return of the cavalry.

We can only surmise what the outcome of Cannae would have been had Hannibals cavalry persisted in chasing routers rather then immediately falling onto the rear of the Roman legions.

Hannibal lost Zama, but by then Carthage had lost the support of the Numidian nation and hence lost the cavalry advantage. Also, by fighting in Africa, and considering the loss of Spain to Rome, deprived Hannibal of his Iberian and Celtic medium cavalry. Hannibal had few veterans and the additional troops available to him at Zama had little experience. To fight Zama in such a manner, against a veteran Roman army, whereby the battle hung in the balance for so long is further testament to Hannibals quality.

After Zama Carthage sued for peace, and Hannibal went into politics for a short time, and later served with both Greeks and Macedonians in other regional conflicts. Rome never forgave Hannibal and the sources tell us he was constantly 'hounded' by Rome. Twenty years after Zama Hannibal died. Some say he committed suicide, others conclude he was poisoned by Roman sympathisers. Whatever the truth, his legacy remains.


As for Hannibals place in History? I, personally speaking, would probably place him 3rd in terms of a military commander (behind Napoleon and Alexander).


Just as an aside, I once read a hypethetical conversation between Scipio and Hannibal after Zama. It went like this ...

Scipio: Who do you rate as the greatest General of all time?
Hannibal: Alexander.
Scipio: And the 2nd greatest?
Hannibal: Pyrrhos.
Scipio: And the 3rd?
Hannibal: Myself
Scipio: And what if you had defeated me at Zama?
Hannibal: Then I would consider myself to be the greatest General who has ever lived.

... ok, the conversation never took place ... but if it had - I could'nt agree more

Welly

Rosacrux
02-07-2003, 10:44
As I said, your opinion is far mor valid than just another arse http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

As for the question in hand... my arse... err... opinion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif would be that it was due to two factors (prolly more, but two predominately):

- Karthagenian politics
Without a strong Rome (or without any Rome - that would probably happen if he'd lay hand on the "eternal city") his imminent power would look like a threat to the Karthagenian nobility. Plus he wouldn't be as useful as he was. Self-preservance? Yes. Also, Rome was a power of law and order, in a rather turbulant world. Had Rome gone out of the way, the turmoil that'd follow, may not be on the interest of the (traders) Karthagenians. Plus, the vacuum of power left after the annihilation of Rome, might have brought some other players in the game - succesor states, perhaps, or a stronger Macedonian Kingdom, or the southern Greeks united or even Syracusae (another of the great enemies of Karthage, albeit at some points they were allies).


- His army composition: Mainly manned with Celts and Italians, they might have been quite hard to feed (they should be spreaded thin most of the time, in seek of provisions) or to controll when waging a siege. Prolly, he might have thought a long siege, based on attrition rather than raw power, might demoralize the army. Against that assumption of mine is another fact: That the (mainly mercenary) army of Hannibal would just love to be given a chance to loot the incredible wealth of Rome. But that may works in conjuction with the political factor, which I think was the predominant.

Wellington
02-07-2003, 11:08
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Feb. 07 2003,03:44)]

Quote[/b] ]- Karthagenian politics
Without a strong Rome (or without any Rome - that would probably happen if he'd lay hand on the "eternal city") his imminent power would look like a threat to the Karthagenian nobility. Plus he wouldn't be as useful as he was. Self-preservance? Yes. Also, Rome was a power of law and order, in a rather turbulant world. Had Rome gone out of the way, the turmoil that'd follow, may not be on the interest of the (traders) Karthagenians. Plus, the vacuum of power left after the annihilation of Rome, might have brought some other players in the game - succesor states, perhaps, or a stronger Macedonian Kingdom, or the southern Greeks united or even Syracusae (another of the great enemies of Karthage, albeit at some points they were allies).

Absolutely. Carthage had nothing to gain by destroying Rome. However, by diminishing Romes power and influence Carthage could possibly have established the whole of Spain/Iberia as a Carthaginian vassel nation. The Carthaginian colonies in Spain were well established by this time and a policy of suppressing Rome whilst considating the hold on Spain would appear to be good Politics.

Unfortunately, Carthage had only one Hannibal who could only be in one place at any one time. Romes military concentration on Spain was the correct policy, although somewhat daring considering Hannibals 'hold' on Italy.

I have problems associating Hannibal with a 'demi-god' that Carthage was wary of. Ok, maybe the politics of the time caused suspicion of successful military figures - then again is that so different to our time?

Hannibals task in Italy was, IMHO ,fulfilled to the letter and although the Carthaginian commanders in Spain over the next 14 years failed to come close to Hannibals expertise this should not be infered to presume Hannibal was carving out his own little 'empire' in Italy whilst Carthage was losing it's grip on the Iberian peninsula.


Quote[/b] ]- His army composition: Mainly manned with Celts and Italians, they might have been quite hard to feed (they should be spreaded thin most of the time, in seek of provisions) or to controll when waging a siege. Prolly, he might have thought a long siege, based on attrition rather than raw power, might demoralize the army. Against that assumption of mine is another fact: That the (mainly mercenary) army of Hannibal would just love to be given a chance to loot the incredible wealth of Rome. But that may works in conjuction with the political factor, which I think was the predominant.

I'm in agreement here. There was no point in sacking Rome. Any such action, whilst (perhaps) being possible would only have been counter-productive.

Hakonarson
02-13-2003, 05:38
"Punic" comes from teh Latinised version of "Poeni", which is what the Carthaginians called themselves.

as for what-if's - well at Trebia the Roman infantry DID break through the Carthaginian infantry when Hannibal first tried this trick - so it sems likely that had the Carthaginian cavalry gone off in pursuit the same would ahve happened - likely the Romans would still have lost, but the Carthaginian mercenaries (Gauls and Spanish) would probably have been roughly handled and more Romans would have gotten away.

As for the cavalry fighting dismounted - I do not believe this was a deliberate tactic (from memory) - rather at this stage of history most cavalry in the West fought without saddles and it was relatively easy to knock them off their horses - IIRC Polybius (or maybe Livy?) mentions fighting dismounted in this context - ie they had been knocked off their horses and subsequently fought on foot as remounting in battle wasn't practical.

Sainika
02-13-2003, 14:37
Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ Feb. 07 2003,09:36)]A question: Having defeated the bulk of the Roman legions and having stretched the roman manpower pool to it's limits, what kept Hannibal from attacking Rome? He had the army (40.000+ of seasoned veterans), he had already stripped Rome from most of it's allies, and what he lacked in siege equipment and know-how he could easily aquire from local sources (especially if he could get some help from Greek Syracusae - famous for their engineers).

So... was it politics that kept him ante portae and not inside the walls of Rome? Did he thought that the Roman scarecrow should be left intact, to reinforce his own position? And in that case, what about his famous "hatred of Rome", wouldn't that be a factor?
Actually Hannibal feared to siege Rome by his army only. There were several new legions in Rome raised quickly from militia, veterans and mercs. That days Rome was a big city already so even if Hannibal conquered Rome his casualties would be very big. He decided to wait for army lead by his brother Hadsrubal which were on march moving towards Appenines from Iberian peninsula. But Romans defeated Hadsrubal and Hannibal decided to move to the north of Appenines to secure his supply forces. He had the chance to destroy Rome but it would be very costy. Rome had devoted allies in Italy and it was not so weak as it is regarded.

Hakonarson
02-14-2003, 00:39
Also immediately after Cannae he suffered a couple of small but costly defeats trying to mop up remenants and take towns.

THE Roman army wasn't destroyed at Cannae - ONE Roman army was destroyed. the Great strength of Rome was always that it could put more men into teh field than anyone else

Roman armies were often defeated at the start of wars, but eventually won when they found a general capable of matchign the enemy - it was alwqys the general who mattered, because the troops hardly ever changed

So we have romans getting thrashed by Hannibal but recovering and first containing and then defeating him.

We have Germans crushing several Roman armies in 110-105 BC before Marius defeats them, Crassus getting himself and his army killed at Carhae by the Parthians but they in turn being defeated (or at least fought to a draw) by Marh Anthony, Mithridates and Pharnaces both defeating several armies led by lesser generals before being defeated by Sulla and Caeser respectively, and so it goes on.

Wellington
02-14-2003, 00:55
Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Feb. 13 2003,17:39)]

Quote[/b] ]Also immediately after Cannae he suffered a couple of small but costly defeats trying to mop up remenants and take towns.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Which costly defeats are these?


Quote[/b] ]THE Roman army wasn't destroyed at Cannae - ONE Roman army was destroyed.

Cannae destroyed 8 legions from the 16 in Italy at that time.


Quote[/b] ]the Great strength of Rome was always that it could put more men into teh field than anyone else

Not after Cannae.

In the wake of Cannae Rome raised a further levy in order in to form 5 legions. They had succient citezen manpower for just 2 (10,000 men).

Recruiting 8,000 slaves and 6,000 debtors/criminals legions to provide the manpower for the other 3 speaks volumes.

Don't forget, it took 14 years (a new generation of manpower) for Rome to defeat Carthage in Spain and provide the springboard for the invasion of Africa.

Hakonarson
02-14-2003, 02:12
I'll have to go look up my Livy again to remember the town & roman general's names - there was 1 Romann General in particular - he defeated Hannibal at a battle at a town that was half a siege and included many of the survivors from Cannae.

And yes they had problems raising troops - but they still had those other 8 legions, they had 10,000 survivors of Cannae, and the 2nd rate legions they raised could fill in for front-line ones in 2nd rate theatres of the war and garrisons (eg Sicily), and a year later they were back up to "full strength" - enough so that the survivors of Cannae (organised into 2 full legions) could still be left in Sicily on a diet of Barley as punnishment for the defeat

And while they were spending 14 years containing Hannibal they were winning the war in Spain and Numidia - the Roman armies In Spain crushed other Carthaginian generals and prevented Hannibal from getting meaningfull reinforcements, while the war in Numidia was waged by proxy of numidian Kings and served to cut into the Carthaginian ability to recruit there.

the Romans did not have to defeat Hannibal in Italy - instead they defeated less able Cartho commanders everywhere else ultimately forcing Hannibal to leave Italy "voluntarily" more-or-less.

Catiline
02-14-2003, 17:21
The roman manpower problems are i think sometimes a little overstated. Whilst the Cannae survivors did serve a purpose in Sicily they weren't allowed back to fight Hannibal until taken by Scipio to North Africa. Despite anything else they were still veteran legions under arms. Were they left on a diet of Barley for 14 years? I know that was the punishment for the survivors of decimated legions, but IIRC the Cannae troops weren't decimated. I could well be wrong.

14 years is i think more the time it took to secure italy and destroy the Barcid power base in Spain than the time it took for a new generation of manpower to come through. Rome afterall always had a massive manpower advantage over Hannibal in Italy

As an aside it'll be interesting to see if decimation is implemented in RTW.

Ckrisz
02-14-2003, 18:03
Adrian Goldsworthy's view is that one has to take Hannibal's response as emblematic of Mediterranean warfare as understood by most who practiced it, with the exception of the Romans. The Carthaginians, as they understood it, were not fighting to destroy Roman civilization but rather to force a political settlement on Rome by wrecking its army and economy. Traditional Mediterranean kingdoms generally didn't view warfare as an all-or-nothing proposition. Rome, OTOH, could never envision defeat without extinction. Most other Mediterranean states would have immediately sued for peace after a defeat like Cannae, but Rome was unique in that it persecuted war so doggedly. Thus this could explain why Hannibal failed to take Rome --- perhaps he simply did not plan on having to take it. Moreover, Rome was a large city, and sieges in ancient times were just as costly as in medieval times. Without a larger army and a better strategic situation (i.e. no Roman troops roaming about to interfere with supply lines and punish recalcitrant allies while Hannibals' main field force was besieging Rome), Hannibal just didn't want to risk his army and his victory in a siege.

Wellington
02-17-2003, 20:38
Quote[/b] (Ckrisz @ Feb. 14 2003,11:03)]Adrian Goldsworthy's view is that one has to take Hannibal's response as emblematic of Mediterranean warfare as understood by most who practiced it, with the exception of the Romans. The Carthaginians, as they understood it, were not fighting to destroy Roman civilization but rather to force a political settlement on Rome by wrecking its army and economy. Traditional Mediterranean kingdoms generally didn't view warfare as an all-or-nothing proposition. Rome, OTOH, could never envision defeat without extinction. Most other Mediterranean states would have immediately sued for peace after a defeat like Cannae, but Rome was unique in that it persecuted war so doggedly. Thus this could explain why Hannibal failed to take Rome --- perhaps he simply did not plan on having to take it. Moreover, Rome was a large city, and sieges in ancient times were just as costly as in medieval times. Without a larger army and a better strategic situation (i.e. no Roman troops roaming about to interfere with supply lines and punish recalcitrant allies while Hannibals' main field force was besieging Rome), Hannibal just didn't want to risk his army and his victory in a siege.
Nice explanation Ckrisz.

I would agree with all of your observations. Carthage was merely fighting a war, whilst Rome was engaged in a 'total' war (from their perspective).

Hakonarson
02-17-2003, 22:22
concerning roman and Punic victories - it wasnt so much Cannae IMO - as Cannae the year after Trasimene, which was the year after Trebia - 3 major Roman defeates in 3 successive years.

Mot states would have sued for peace after such a run of losses, not merely after one - Rome was NOT the only state to keep fighting after major victories - Athens had done so for example right up to teh point where they were starving niside teh long walls at the end of the Peloponesian wars, so I think Goldsworthy's analysis as presented here (I haven't read the original) doesn't really hold up.

But even after those 3 huge loasses Rome stil ahd armies in the field whereas many other states did not - Hannibal's defeat at Zama removed the last Carthaginian army, hence Carthage could no longer resist.

And the war was ongoing - Rome won at Iberia in 215, lost teh Scipio brothers and their armies at Castulo and Ilorc in 212, Scipio (later known as Africanus) defeated Hasdrubel at Baecula in 208 and Hasdrubal finally met his fate at the Metaurus in 207 against a bunch of "unknown" Roman generals - the consul Marcus Livius Salinator with a 2-legion army, the Praetor Lucius Porcius Licinius with another weak 2-legion army and the 2nd consul Caius Claudius Nero with 6000 foot and 1000 horse he'd force marched from his army watching Hannibal without being noticed.

Hasdrubal (another one) lost and army of 50-70,000 men to Scipio at Ilipa in 206.

And in all this time Hannibal never fought a major battle