Louis vs. Cronos ( a historical debate)

[Cronos Impera]

Here are the ethical guidelines:

No racist remarks
No Godwin's Law abuse (calling the other a fascist/nazi)
All sources need qoutations
Eg: "Yada yada yada" Yada Vol.1 Page 1000, Yada
No eye bulging, underpins or any other illegal techniques
No other member shall post on this thread unless they are observing a violation of a rule or are simply cheering their favorite.
Keep yourself in the context; any posts about similar situations shall not provide precedents for the debate,they shall be viewed as independent episodes.You can't have a Kevin Bacon - 6 degrees of separation kind of argument, the usage of sensible issues such as the Palestine/Holocaust by either side constitues blood libel and must be handled accordingly.Don't try create a bigger picture, that draws attention from the other side.You can however use it in the taunting after the debate is won.The taunting still has to be in a civilised manner.

Once you had a duel invitation, you can only oblige sir.

[Beskar]

While you would like to get your gloves off and duel with Louis in Mortal Kombat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMf40daefsI) to test your intellectual might. The .Org and especially the backroom isn't really the place for you to do it.

I would highly recommend you take it to Private Message.

[Cronos Impera]

Thank you for the warm and honest recomandations. However it would be a shame not to provide a precedent for decent atrocity talk to the rest of the Org.I also want third parties such as Hooahguy or Prussian Iron or LittleGrizly to view the entire topic (so noone would suspect foul play, racism or worse on my behalf).I also want to demonstrate that you can still win a debate without having to jump at the other's throat or post profanities or go berserk and flip out.I want to prove that you can still win a debate in a civilised manner when all odds are against you and the other side basks in the sunlight (Loius was the Sun King, you know) and has a privilaged hard-earned status (Senior Member).

To his Excellency Emperour Tosa and his camel retainer Mithrandir:
We, who are going to be instangibbed, salute you (starts charging at random windmills on the battlefield riding a Bartixian camel with 3 humps).

Mods, Hooahguy, LittleGrizly,PrussianIron,Gawain,Mendill, Edyzmedieval,Beskar and all else please take a seat, have a coffee and enjoy.

[Rhyfelwyr]

What is the debate on?

[Fragony]

Can't we play? At least let us know what this is about, I am sure your kung-fu is powerful but like this it's no fun at all, can we sheer from the sidelines at least.

[KukriKhan]

What is the debate on?


I think it is fallout from the Watchtower thread, including this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2379365&postcount=57).

[Fragony]

Still, what priviliges do senior members get, never heard of such a thing

You're the Senior Member. I myself can't start the thread. Its a privilage I'm giving to you as a senior member.

que, having a ball without me, instant bye

[Banquo's Ghost]

Still, what priviliges do senior members get, never heard of such a thing

Nothing much.

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

[Strike For The South]

Nothing much.

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

And what a clock it is

[Fragony]

Nothing much.r

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

Yeah but without me anyhow, thought it was some badge of honour not exclusive acces to certain to exclusive content. I will be checking out this site but I am no longer going to be an active member.

[Andres]

Yeah but without me anyhow, thought it was some badge of honour not exclusive acces to certain to exclusive content. I will be checking out this site but I am no longer going to be an active member.

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

[drone]

Nothing much.

A ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

The ton of cash is in Zimbabwe 1 dollar bills.

[Strike For The South]

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

The above post is a lie.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I was sure they said they got a special forum before?

[InsaneApache]

I was sure they said they got a special forum before?

That's reserved for the Daimyos. :disguise:

[Vladimir]

So, what? The new ones don't have to clean out the camel stables now? Sheesh, kids these days.

[Cronos Impera]

Thank you all for the nice gathering.
We still have to wait for the Sun King to arrive.A camel stable cleaner can't start the conversation as it would be impolite and outrageous. I would wake all Mithrandir's Bartixian camels and I'll end up in camel dung up to my neck, because Martok was promoted and now gets to polish the camel's nostrils.

So we need the Frantex Monarch to open the door and post the opening reply or send the flying pigeons to my PM box as Beskar recomanded.

[Whacker]

French porn is awful.

[Cronos Impera]

I guess its the cheesy music covers they use.

[Meneldil]

French porn is awful.

You sir have no idea what your talking about. Modern French porn is both sexy and classy. Much better than the gonzo crap that plagues anglo saxon porn.
If you think otherwise, you're a nazi and I'm going to jump on your throat. Bollox Bloxxox.

Now excuse me, but I'm going to take a seat and watch some good old po...errr this debate.

[Whacker]

You sir are a damned genius. Modern French porn is both hairy and pretentious. Much worse than the outstanding art that is anglo saxon porn.

Fixed.

:balloon2:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As a senior member and subsequent moderator, I can state emphatically that I had no idea what language was being spoken. I assumed it was English, but others now assure me that the "f" term has become a human universal. I thank American film for this. On the other hand, at least the SM sack o' p0rn only involved humans. As to what those AM-types peruse.....I shudder.

[Whacker]

I have it from very reliable sources that STFS is a world class connoisseur and foremost expert of the bovine variety.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Time to get this debate going. Thank you for all your contributions so far, but I wish to remind all you fine gentlemen that the topic is 'outrageous national slurs and vile provocations', and it is these that need to be discussed.

In that light, certainly the most contemptible and vilanous slur ever issued on the .org, is that 'Modern French porn is both hairy and pretentious'. Tsk. I must insist it isn't pretentious in the least.



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To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Louis VI the Fat]

~~-~~-~~-o0O0o-~~-~~-~~


'Romania in WWII was a fascist state. A staunch ally of Nazi Germany. Romania murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews, Gypsies and other minorities of its own accord.'

:yes:


This truth is only slowly being accepted in Romania, where anti-Semitism is still rife. Nationalist narratives dating from WWII, and to a large extent, predating that, are still common, even if democratic Romania has since 2002-2004* slowly accepted its historical role in WWII.

*Not in the least bit owing to pressure from the EU, during negotiations over Romania's membership from 2007. No membership for holocaust denying states. Democracy and respect for human rights from Belfast to Bucharest. :knight:



~~-~~-~~-o0O0o-~~-~~-~~


For those who would like to read up a bit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania_during_World_War_II


Very good is the following account from 1991, giving some historical context about Romania's 'Holocaust Deflection'. (Not a typo for 'denial')
Romanians Are Told of Nation's Role in Mass Killing of Jews

By HENRY KAMM,

Published: Tuesday, July 2, 1991



For the first time, half a century after the event, the enormity of the killing of more than half of Romania's 750,000 Jews by Germans, Hungarians and Romanians was told today for all Romanians to hear -- their memory mourned by the Government and a monument unveiled to their martyrdom.

Many of the speakers, particularly Elie Wiesel, the Nobel Peace Prize winner, who was born in Romania and is the sole survivor in his family, used the occasion to warn against the current rebirth of anti-Semitism.

This sentiment, together with a broad range of extreme nationalist views, is finding many outlets in the country's newly free press and is usually met with only embarrassed silence by those who dislike it.

Until now, Romanians have been told by their Communist governments that Germany and Hungary, with the help of some Romanian "fascists," had killed hundreds of thousands of Romanians, including Jews. The fate of Romania's Jews, killed because they were Jews, was never acknowledged, although few other Romanian civilians died except in acts of war.

The facts, widely known elsewhere, were never acknowledged here: that a great number of Jewish men, women and children were killed in pogroms of a brutality that sometimes shocked even the Germans, pogroms carried out by the Romanian military and the police. Or, the Jews worked, starved or froze to death in concentration camps established and run by Romania.

As a result, many Romanians have professed unawareness that the killing of the Jews was also a Romanian matter.
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/02/world/romanians-are-told-of-nation-s-role-in-mass-killing-of-jews.html


Quite long, but good, is 'Pippidi, the Pogrom that Never Happened', in: http://web.ceu.hu/jewishstudies/yearbook02.htm


Both very brief and very enlightening is the following:

Romania
For many decades Romania, under the communist regime as well as later, denied or greatly downplayed its role in the Holocaust.[14] There were about eight hundred thousand Jews in prewar Romania, almost 5 percent of the general population. About half of the Jewish population was murdered in the Holocaust. As Romanian-born historian Radu Ioanid explained:

World War II transformed what might otherwise have remained a period of severe anti-Semitic outbreaks into a true Romanian Holocaust that, while part of the broader German-European Holocaust, remained at the same time a specifically Romanian story. As in Germany, the immediate background to Romania's Holocaust tapped archaic anti-Semitic traditions and was crafted by militant agitation of anti-Semitic parties, itself followed by State legislation and then compounded by wartime circumstances. Bloody mob violence was the result, but now drawing in government elements, the riots took on the character of a social enterprise and thus invited takeover by the State.
This transition phase, when mass robbery and mass murder evolved from a societal to a governmental enterprise, took place in the months immediately preceding and immediately following Romania's entrance into the war. The tempering of the Romanian-German diplomatic alliance into one of wartime fraternity augured more deliberate and more systematic ill for Romania's Jews. Finally, during this time, the Antonescu regime became more directly involved in encouraging the violence, though still more in the sense of indirect inspiration. Soon, however, it would openly take things over.[15]

One typical example of an atrocity in which Romania's Legionnaires were heavily involved was the pogrom in Iasi in June 1941. This pogrom was undertaken by a combination of the local authorities, the Romanian army, the Legionnaires, as well as the SS. The number of Jews who were killed was estimated at eight to twelve thousand. Another almost three thousand died of thirst or asphyxiation while traveling for days in sealed cattle cars of trains. For decades communist historians blamed the pogrom largely on the German SS and reduced the number of victims.[16]
#

Questioning the Holocaust
In mid-2001, a symposium was held in Bucharest that had the questionable title "Has There Been a Holocaust in Romania?" Its final resolution stated that Jews had "suffered almost everywhere in the Europe of those years, but not in Romania [sic!]," and it added that "the testimony of trustworthy Jews" demonstrates that "the Romanian people had in those years a behavior honoring the human dignity [sic!]."[17]
When asked in 2003 to clarify a Romanian government declaration that "within the borders of Romania between 1940 and 1945 there was no Holocaust," then-Romanian president Ion Iliescu asserted: "The Holocaust was not unique to the Jewish population in Europe. Many others, including Poles, died in the same way.... Jews and Communists were treated equally.... However it is impossible to accuse the Romanian people and the Romanian society of this [massacre of Jews]."[18]
The deflection process in Romania was undermined when the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania, chaired by Elie Wiesel, released a report in November 2004 that unequivocally points to Romanian culpability. It declares: "Of all the allies of Nazi Germany, Romania bears responsibility for the deaths of more Jews than any country other than Germany itself."[19] The report recognizes the isolated examples of Romanian individuals and institutions who have struggled to correct the record, and whose influence on the general population had been marginal thus far.
Laurence Weinbaum writes:

Iliescu praised the commission's findings and was himself praised in Jewish circles for convening it and accepting the results. However, in one of his last acts as president, he conferred the state's prize for Faithful Service on Holocaust-denier [Gheorghe] Buzatu. He also awarded the state's highest decoration, the Order of the Star of Romania, to Corneliu Vadim Tudor, the [far-Right party] Romania Mare leader long known for his virulent anti-Semitism. It was a fitting end to the Iliescu regime, one that epitomized its clumsy attempts to comply with international pressure while pandering to Romanian nationalist sentiment seemingly oblivious to the evident contradictions in such a policy.[20] http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=3&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=624&PID=0&IID=3065&TTL=Holocaust_Deflection_and_Whitewashing



An excellent and brief account in English of a Romanian point of view, highlighting that history is complex, and one must be aware of simplifications:

In Romania, Anti-Semitism Stirs Passions
Published: Monday, July 29, 1991

To the Editor:
"Romania's Dirty Secrets" (editorial, July 5) and news articles July 1 and 2 indicate an attempt to depict the Romanian people as anti-Semites, guilty of indiscriminate mass killing of Jews, and to take out of context the tragic events that occurred during World War II in Romania.

As one who lived through and witnessed these events, I believe you ignore relevant facts and serve the propaganda initiated by supporters of the former Communist regime in Romania intended to distract attention from the true problems Romania confronts now that the Ceausescus are gone.
You fail to mention that by the end of World War II Romania had a community of more than 500,000 Jews, the largest Jewish community in Eastern Europe. That this community was able to survive and did not share the fate of other European Jewish communities is due in large part to the strong opposition of Marshal Ion Antonescu, who led the country during this period, to the irresistible pressure by Hitler and his accomplices to have all Romanian Jews deported to Nazi concentration camps. There are undisputed documents to show Marshal Antonescu's opposition and refusals to comply with Nazi requests for such deportations.

One cannot ignore or deny that Jews were killed or persecuted in Romania during World War II. However, your reports mix up the atrocities against Jews in North Transylvania, occupied in World War II by the fascist regime of Hungary, which were committed by the gendarmerie of Adm. Nicholas Horthy and SS German police, with the killings by German troops in Bessarabia and Bukovina and with atrocities against Jews by Romanian fascists and extremists in Romania.
This is not to say that such deplorable atrocities did not take place in Romania, but the figures you report are highly exaggerated and unsupported by evidence.

The allegation that Marshal Antonescu ordered pogroms and deportations to death camps that took the lives of at least 250,000 Jews was not even imputed during his war-criminal show trial organized by the Communists. Marshal Antonescu's indictment contained only two charges regarding orders to kill and deport Jews, which encompassed no more than 3,000 lives. This is not to say that such killings were in any way legitimate, but to deplore such acts.

Marshal Antonescu had no choice but to become an ally of Nazi Germany after he saw the Western democracies betray Poland and Czechoslovakia. Restoring this historical context may explain but surely not justify all of Marshal Antonescu's acts.

The journalists who once touted Nicolae Ceausescu and now claim a pure ethnic Romania are not only a small minority of the Romanian news media and population but also agents of the former Romanian secret police, the Securitate, who are still the promoters of propaganda and disinformation intended to divide the Romanian nation and promote their political interests. They don't represent even an isolated segment of Romanian public opinion. Romanians have long lived with Jews and other minorities sharing the same aspirations for freedom and rejecting ideologies of hatred. ANDREI BARDESCU Long Island City, Queens, July 9, 1991 The writer is director of Epoca, a Romanian magazine published in New York.

A version of this letter appeared in print on Monday, July 29, 1991, on section A page 14 of the New York edition.http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/29/opinion/l-in-romania-anti-semitism-stirs-passions-572291.html

[Centurion1]

they prefer the term steers.

[pevergreen]

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.

Thats because you arent part of the Exclusive Senior Members club. Thats where we moved everything to.

Or are you *goes to check*

Turns out you are.

Thats where everything is!

[Strike For The South]

I have it from very reliable sources that STFS is a world class connoisseur and foremost expert of the bovine variety.

I prefer longhorns IYKWIMAITYD

[Whacker]

In that light, certainly the most contemptible and vilanous slur ever issued on the .org, is that 'Modern French porn is both hairy and pretentious'. Tsk. I must insist it isn't pretentious in the least.

My dear friend, everything French is pretentious to the extreme. Being French precludes you from understanding, much less acknowledging this. It doesn't matter, we all still love you as you are.

[Pannonian]

To avoid all misunderstandings, Senior members get nothing members don't have. They used to have a larger pm box, but I think everybody has the same now. There is also no secret senior member forum. All you get is the "member" changed into "senior member". That's all.
I'd like the TWC PM box size (1 million messages). I currently have just under 8000.

[Cronos Impera]

Dear Sun King, thank you for your courage. It proves so far that you truely are Frantex.

Dear Jury, I'm not going to start my plea by denying the 180.000 death toll issued by Hillberg for the Bessarabian Askhenazi (I'm not going to use "Jew" as a term to catalogue the minority in question as it names a different tribe called "Judah". The correct term for the Yiddish speakers is Askhenazi and the geographical determination is crittical in establishing the facts). Despite claims of putting the problem in the wider context of the Holocaust, this argument tries to keep the problem in its rightful context (N.Moldova).I'm not going to adress the Palestine issue, the Biblical Wars issues, the conduct of other Mosaics <<the term used to designate the follwers of Moses and Talmud just like Mahomedan/Christian/Buddhist designate a religious group and not a racial/ethnical one. As history of the Mozaic cult has shown the follwers of Moses vary in ethnicity (Ethiopians, Askhenazi,Sephardic, Samaritans),language (Yiddish,Aramaic,Hebrew,Poeni) and traditions (Samaritans/Orthodox/Modern/Reformate) not to mention different experiences>> in other parts of the world.The problem deals with a population and not a ethnicity/race/religon.

Here's my side of the coin so to speak.

The story begins in 1848. Back then many Moldovan nobles (or boyars) ware studying in France.Many such students ware embroiled in the Revolution either in France and/or Moldova.Investing money to oast the old guard (Byzantine-influenced boyars) they brought Napoleonic ideals back home.
In the Islaz Proclamation they announced the liberalisation of trade (no longer restricted to guilds), finances (everyone could issue credits) and freed the serfs.

However certain complications prevented the ideals to be realised.Firstly the private banking trusts developed before the National Bank. Thus control over the sprawling credit system could not be done in an effective way. The trusts would be more powerfull than the National Bank which was little more than a public safe. Those intrests ware invested in estates (there ware little industries developed during that period) as the rural gentry moved to the cities, Moldovan Askhenazi moved in the rural villas where thay continued to block the land reforms started during the 1948 revolution (what person wouldn't try to protect his investments).

In 1907 Romania was among the last European states with serfs.The serfs, supported by Tzarist commisars, began to rebel against the rural upper class (a good portion of it was Moldovan Askhenazi) and landlords ware lynched. The army was the traditional ally of the Moldovan Askhenazi and the oppresion which followed shoock the nation (350 pesants ware shot by firing squads).Grown with a Askhenazi step-mother, the future Conducator Ion Antonescu was reported to have killed 35 pesants.

As Hooahguy may confirm, Mosaic funeral rites are somewhat touchy when it comes to allowing the body to be used for medical study.It was so touchy to the Askhenazi studying at Jessy Medical (Iasi in Romanian) Collage would not donate a proportionate number of bodies to the morgue.Thus fascism was born, as Romanian students ware appaled by the privilaged status of the Askhenazi community.Just like a religious comunity would do business without paying taxes (that is simply unacceptable from any moral point of view). The fascists led by comrades Mota,Marin and Corneliu Zelea Codreanu and other leading students had the Askhenazi students removed from the Medical College.

In 1918 Max Goldstein and Anna Robinsohn (http://www.spp.ro/docatro.htm) payed by Zinoviev plants a bomb in the Romanian Parliment killing a few soldiers, a bishop, wounding the ministry of Justice.This was a terorist act against a democraticly elected parliment which included delegates from all minorites. This resulted in the banning of the Communist Party which was responsible for the attack.Nearly all the leading members ware Askhenazi (Anna Robinshon, Col. Moscovich, Moises Haupt...and we could fill the whole list and find but 3-4 Romanians).Banning the Communist Party recieved a negative feedback from the Moldovan Askhenazi (Anna Robinsohn was the daughter of a rabbi and a Hebrew scholar).Many leading comunists ware sent to prisons where they suffered the rigors of justice (such as Jilava).Those communists planned not immigratio

However the treatment was equal for Romanian-born hatemongers. Corneliu Zelea Codreanu and the fascist elite ware executed at Tancabesti.Again Romania treated its terrorists equally and anti-semites ware gunned down with the same speed as Askhenazi criminals.Despite the banning of the Communist Party the Askhenazi still had their minority party and a couple of powerful institutions (The Lauder School, the Jewish Theater) recieved the same benefits as other members of the population. Despite a fascist victory in the 1933 elections, the other parties prefered to have the adulterer back (Charles III) than a fascist majority.

That all changed in 23 August 1940.Then, the Romanian army was given orders to retreat from N.Bokovina and Bessarabia without retaliation."The Jewish population <<not communists>> treated the retreating Romanians in such an (awfull) way that they will regret dearly a year later.Things that should not have happened..." Nicholas M. Nagy–Talavera in "The Green Shirts and the Others", Hoover Institutions Press, Standfort, California, 1970, p. 305

At 6 july 1940, the casualties sustained by the Romanian Army (which was given orders to holster their weapons to avoid open war) ware as it follows: killed, wounded or missing 356 officers and 42876 soldiers.

Try a blood libel argument and I'll make sure to post details for about 30-40 atrocities commited by the Akhenazi but here are some exerpts.
All Romanian administration was exterminated (mayors, praefects) and replaced with Askhenazi who hailed the invading Soviet Army with roses and red flags. All Romanian flags ware burned, soldiers' families ware taken hostage, orthodox priests ware exectued in horrific ways, Moldovan Romanians ware hunted down for sport. Fellons ware released from prison, armed and sent to rampage, childern found at the Kisinev hospital ware thrown from hospital windows, their nurses shot to the ground.The assasins ware Askhenazi lawyers, traders and merchants.

"Even Jewish children, some of them emrolled in the "Scouts", ware waiting in the stations for the refugee convoys throwing stones at them or spilling profanities" Alex.- Mihai Stoenescu, Armata, maresalul si evreii, RAO International Publishing Company, 1998

"We've been accepting Askhenazi domination and takeovers for many decades and the Askhenazi take their revenge against us in the most difficult times of our people.And from nowhere else [inside their community] we find a public outcry for the actions of their bloodthirsty gangs.The madness that was staged against us has spread throught cities, towns and villages.Our brothers leave their sick children behind, their aging parents,their hard earned property.In their grief they needed a kind word,if only for a sentimental comfort. They ware served with bullets, they ware butchered with axes, many of them ware killed.All their belongings ware stolen, than they ware subjected to a mean and degrading treatment.This Romanian population,if only out of foolish kindness towards its guests, deserves a better treatment from the Askhenazi who untill yesturady ware bolstering of their warm and humanly love towards our nation in peril. (Why so much hate? Neamul Romanesc, 6 july 1940).


Even Nicoalae Iorga, a philo-semitic and witness in the Fascist trials was forced to admit the Askhenazi atrocites. He was exectued later during the year as vengence for the Codreanu trials.

Death toll:
300000 deportees
15000 Romanian civilians killed for the Odessa progrom at Saratov
200000 Romanians killed in 1947-1948



When the Romanian Army reocupied its former holdings, 180000 Bessarabian Askhenazi ware killed, wounded or missing. Many of those ware innocents left behind by the war criminals (brothers, sisters, children,elders,sionists).The Iron Guard and Army took vengance on this innocent group.

When the tide turned again 180000 Romanian soldiers ware sent to Siberian death camps.

Anna Robinshon, Nahum Grisa & co. ware responsible for the death of 80.000 inmates in Gulags during 1948-1952. Anna Robinshon also gave to the Soviets Achilles' Isle and some islands in the Danube Delta.
Silviu Brucan, ran the Scanteia newspaper.He and Petre Roman ordered the execution of Ceausescu ON CHRISTMAS EVE. Now Romanian Christmas is ruined.
Petre Roman, son of Walter Roman ruined as prime minister the economy: my parents ware unemployed for 2 years as their factories ware ruined.

Should I mention all Askhenazi who :daisy: on my people and let it to rot? Should I protest about French refusal to acknowledge Paulescu as the true inventor of insuline just because he wrote some anti-semitic articles? Even the Askhenazi aknowledge he treated all patients equally.But France still won't reward a "subhuman fascist hatemonger"




I thank God my Polish grandfather managed to flee to Romania, some Wurmbrand (a Askhenazi converted to Christianity) stepped in front of the American Congress on behalf of the Romanian people against his kind who ruled Romania, that another convert founded a Christian library in which Romanian literature survived, that a Romanian mayor protected the innocents against his own kind, that the madness stopped in N.Moldova (intact Askhneazi communites still remain in the south as well as their theaters, schools and synagogues), that when the madness was about to grip the rest Antonescu punished the culprits with bullets and exile (the Legionary rebellion), that up to this day I can still view "Tache (Romanian),Yanche(Askhenazi) and Cadar(Muslim)" and still have a good time.



A simplification of the background would be as it follows.

Rubicon Mafia Rules apply so Mafia A can win if it eliminates town B and mafia B, while the townies can win if they eliminate both mafias (unless one townie is Sasaki this remains little more than a pipe-dream).

Dayphase: means war tribunals
Nightphase: means atrocity
Town means community
Mafia means warcriminals
Bandwaggons means bandwaggons (they will cheer for any charismatic poster)
Inactive players means innocents
Active players means Town leaders which are not Mafia


Town A
Town B
Mafia A
Mafia B

Night phase 1:

The first night phase has the Mafia A argue with the Town A over their VC. Mafia B has its first succes as Mafia A chose to kill from Town A.

Day phase 1:
The FoS of a popular don gets Town B agitated. Don uses her secret ability to appear innocent to her town.Townies from A and B become suspicious of their neighbours.
Active townies in Town B chose the first VC, while active townies in Town A chose the second.

Night phase 2:
The Mafia A retaliates against a few pro-town townies. Some townies had protection and the killers get neutralised. The don A himself gets eliminated.Meanwhile Mafia B uses the PM secret power to convert a few townies from town A.

Day phase 3:
Mafia A surivives by promoting some members. No FoS this day.

Night phase 3:
Mafia B kills the most active players from Town A and bullies others into inactivity.Mafia A punishes the active players from Town A which opted for a pro-town victory.

Day phase 4:
Both towns are inactive.But bandwaggons from Town B are eager to read the synopsis.

Night phase 5:
Mafia A retaliates by killing random targets from town B, mostly inactive players and some bandwaggons. Bandwaggons from Town A as well as some active players celebrate imminent victory.

Day phase 5:

The Mafia A gets WOG'ed.Partial town B victory conditions.

Night phase 6:

Mafia B eliminates the remaining Town B active players as well as many inactive ones.As town B was smaller than town A and many surviving town B players retired, all that remained in the game ware Mafia B and Town A (mostly inactive bandwaggons). Mafia B cleans its PM box and retires.

Official Result: Town Victory
Unofficial Result: Mafia B Victory

And Town A must deny Mafia B ever existed, and that there was only one town and that they ware guilty for lynching townies instead of Mafia.

I'm not going to deny the Antonescian terror, I'm not going to ignore the Askhenazi atrocities either.While monuments upon monuments ware built for Town A not a single brick was layed for Town B. The day of infamy (23 August) became a national holiday, entire communites ware erased, forced to pay compensations for the Askhenazi while the Askhenazi thenselves never payed a single penny in compensation.

Don't try to draw me into a Holocaust/Palestine debate Louis, you'll only have a nothingain which isn't good neither for you or for Hooahguy who you are trying to impress.

All animals are equal and humans are just animals.
"Do not do upon your neighbour what would be harmfull to you.That is all the Torah,the rest is only comment." Babylonian Talmud writer

There is no reason why some breaths would be more valuable than others in front of God.I'm not asking for a casualty historical compensation like in accounting

"Askhenazi victims" = "Romanian victims" x dead

I've worked with civilised Askhenazi who failed to mention even once a Romanian atrocity to me while we ware researching together.I fail to see why should I mention a Askhenazi atrocity to a Askhenazi who collaborates with me. But I will not hide it from a senior flamer who seeks only to pour salt into unhealed wounds just to feal good.

If side A and B can now cooperate peacefully and recover the balance why disturb it with self-righteous statements?

[pevergreen]

You're missing the stage where Sasaki reveals himself as a detective and wins as a third mafia family, containing only him.

[Samurai Waki]

But what they don't realize is that I'm the real Senor Juarez *dramatic Mexican soap opera music plays in the background*

[Whacker]

Christmas is ruined.

This is pretty the only thing I gathered from this very tl;dr post.

:balloon2:

[Mithrandir]

What about the tourists?

I always found history, and especially WW2 quite intresting. Until this thread. Somehow such a debate seems useles to me and bores me more than watching horses all day.

Unless someone can incorporate some camels in the history...I'm out.

[Sarmatian]

Cronos Impera didn't refute a single fact Louis stated, he just put them in the proper historical context, which is like, totally not the topic, even if every fact he stated is 100% correct. I don't know much about the incident in question but it seems a bit far fetched that it is.

I don't play mafia games so I didn't even try to understand that part.

[Cronos Impera]

I'm not going to deny atrocities commited by my people during WW2. But I will not accept victim status for the Askhenazi minority in N.Moldova and their allies in Soviet Russia.
On a macro level we have two entities (Romanians,Askhenazi minority). On absolute morality (I will not delve into relative morality as this often leads to nothingains, trollling and hate speech) neither side can be considered a victim (each had its share of blood: 180000 Askhenazi <<after Hillberg and D.Lipstadt>> and 400000 Romanians <<official death toll as registred in Soviet and Securitatea archives>>).

On a micro level (that is individual one) we have victims and villans, that is no culprits from the other side have been brought to justice. The Holocaust and Yalta convention had those crimes hidden under a carpet (the events which surrounded the big nations ware so great that small atrocites ware nearly forgotten). I belive no macro entities (nations, ethnic groups, religious groups, racial groups) should mutually compensate the loss of innocent lives like in Accounting and that justice should be dealt on an individual level, not political one. Otherwise you might get open wounds and open wounds lead to more horrors.

Since 1946 the only voice heard on a global scale belonged to the Askhenazi minority.Anna Pauker was the head of Foreign Relations, Bessarabian Askhenazi ware placed at embassies in London, Zurich or Washington. What was left out of the Romanians they persecuted was a cowardly mob, afraid of its own shadow, and fear leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

To stop hate you need to stop fear, to stop fear you need a formal appology from the Bessarabian Askhenazi to the Romanian people and a memorial built out of their own funds just like we did for them. Have a communal comitee extend its regrets to the victims of the Rebellion.Then the hatred will vanish, then those entities will find once again strength to work together.

That is the only thing I demand. Or we'll let Askhenazi protect their members (let them lionise Anna Pauker as a Hebrew teacher) and we'll protect ours (Dr.Paulescu as the inventor of insuline and life-savior for many of our elders). Let the dead have their rest and the living go on with their lives.

That is why I got angry.That is why I had this debate. Because I wanted to teach Loius a lesson about the wrongs of doublewriting (Their killers are war criminals, ours are heroes).

That is why I feel its rude for me as a Romanian to cheer a side in a Holocaust thread, that is why I feel it is rude for Loius to cheer a side in a thread about Kosovo. Because I would let my agenda deform my opinions and end up doublewriting (A are war criminals, B are heroes).

Don't try to draw me into other issues like hate speech. This thread is about crimes written in the Ten Coomandments (murder and looting) not abstract issues like anti-Romanian, anti-semitic, anti-communist, anti-fascist.

[Meneldil]

Would you mind posting more about these ashkenazi atrocities you're talking about? The only think I could find about a town called Kishinev is that, yeah, a pogrom happened there in 1903.

Though I'm tempted to say that this is all bollox used as an excuse for the deportation and slaughter of jews that happened later, I'm also willing to learn more about this event(s).

[Cronos Impera]

Yes Mendill. Here are the facts.

In 1903 Kisinev was Russian-occupied so that progrom doesn't concern me.

"The Russians demanded Bessarabia and Bukoviana.The Ultimatum was brief and strict. In the chaos which followed, generated by a chaotic Romanian retreat, happed many things which should not have happened.The Jewish and Ukrainian populations, enthusiastic about the withdrawal of the Romanian administration, the most incompetent in all Romania, treated the retreating Romanians in a way which would cost them dearly a year later.” (Nagy Talvera, The Green Skirts and Others, Standfort California 1970).

This is what happened:

„In Kisinev the execution lists ware compiled by Askhenazi communist intelectuals, lawyer Carol Steinberg, lawyeress Etea Dinvar and dr. Derevich." (Paul Goma, Red Week, Vremea Publishing, 2004)
„The exodus of the Romanian population is an untold drama.Askhenazi inhabitants organise everywhere - up to Galati - atrue rebellion with burglaries and killings.”

Death toll:
300000 deportees
15000 Romanian civilians killed for the Odessa progrom at Saratov
200000 Romanians killed in 1947-1948

„We can without doubt affirm that the Great Revolution was made by Askhenazi hands...We ware the ones who lead the Russian Proletariat towards glory and even today the fate of bolshevism lies within our hands. The symbol of judaism, the 5 beamed star was adoped by the Revolution and in this sign the bourgeouis shall be exterminated.”. (M.Cohan, Le Communiste, Harkov)
List of Bessarabian Communists from PCR recommanded for bolshevik membership.
Bruhis (Kofman) Srul Pinhusovici 2. Faierştein Raia 3.Kofman Iakov 4. Djureak Dmitri Mihailovici (Vladimirovici) 5. Morgherştern Izrail Markovici 6.Zighelbaun Srul 7. Burlacenko Serghei Danilvici 8 . Luca Leaslo 9. Korotkov Iuri Aleksandrovici 1o. Scvorţov Mihail Iakovlevici: Leibovici Srul Abramovici 11.Oighenştein Lev Nikolaevici 12.Goldforb Abram Isaakovici 13. Petrov Piotr Ivanovici (Guzun) 14. Roitman Fanea Isaakovna 15. Tarandaş Malea 16. Korotkova Natalia Isaakovna 17. Satovskaia Roza 18. Rabinovici Fanea Iakovlevna 19. Revici Iakov Moiseevici 20. Visecauţan Polea Efimovna 21. Budeştskaia Ester 22. Cioklo Mordko 23. Kolpakci Iakov Aronovici 24. Şteinberg Froim 25. Boguslavskaia Polea Iakovlevna 26. Romanenko Nikolai Nikolaevici 27. Pastir Zasea Leibov 28. Gudis Lev Smulevici 29.Rabinovici Şoil Oiezero vici 30. Orlih Mark Semionovici 31. Boguslavski Iakov Tovici 32. Zighelbaum Abram 33. Voloh Abram 34. Limon Srul Greşovici 35Grinman Isaak Iosifovici 36. Bujor Iosif Aronovici 37. Weisman Sara Iosifovna

The composition of the Central Comitee in the Romanian Communist Party

Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej – General secretary (Romanian)
Ana Pauker- Secretary, Askhenazi (had a direct line to Stalin, dealt with Romanian-Soviet relationships)
Vasile Luca- Secretary, Askhenazi
Teohari Georgescu- Secretary, Askhenazi (the head of the Secret Police)
Lothar Rădăceanu- Secretary, Askhenazi

„Documents and materials gather as far as the eye can see, official documents and statements taken unde oath.High magistrates and brave officers, who had risked their own lives to defend the Romanian exodus, saw numerous acts of savagery, the killing of innocents, stonnings and tauntings.All this gestures ware commited by the angry jewry, whose waves of hatred unleashed like under some invisible commandment." Nicolae Iorga

The rebellion prevented any real evacuation from occuring. 300000 Romanians ware deported into Syberia in cattle trains, many of whom ware never seen again.

I'm not saying a Romanian genocide against the Askhenazi happened in Romania.I'm not going to ignore the fact that an Askhenazi genocide against the Romanians happened in Romania.

The Russians gave the leadership of Occupied Bukovina and Bessarabia to the Askhenazi.

[Meneldil]

So wait? Did this happen before or after WWII? I'm kind of confused, as at first it seemed that it happened before, since you said "it would cost them much one year later" (which I thought meant "during WWII"), but then you brought up 1946.

Your post is not very clear, even without taking the mafia game part into account. And I'm obviously (and unfortunately) not familiar with the history of Romania, which doesn't help at all.

From what I gathered, your line of thought goes a bit like this :
- Jewish terrorists committed atrocities between 1918 and 1940.
- 1940: as the soviets annex Bessarabia, the jewish population goes onto a killing spree and commits a genocide against the Romanian army and population.
- WWII: the Romanians take their revenge and slaughter not only the jewish population of Romania, but also of Bessarabia and Ukrainia, while the Romanian Great Leader (TM) is a strong supporter of the Nazi policies regarding jews.
- End of WWII: the soviets invade Romania and kill those who oppose them.

Is it more or less how it went?

First, could you link me a precise source, if possible in english or in french, about the events of 1940 ? And if possible, one that looks somewhat believable and as unbiaised as possible. Does this event has a name?

Secondly, there are a few things that bother me in your post. The first one is that all the figures I've seen regarding the jewish genocide in Romania range around 280.000 killed (often more), not 180.000. I know arguing about numbers might seem pointless sometimes, but in that case, it seems as if your idea is - roughly - "we killed jews but "they" killed much more romanians, so it's fair game". On the one hand, you're saying "Comparing numbers is useless", but on the other hand, you pull numbers out of nowhere, and significantly lower the death toll estimate of the shoah in Romania.

My second issue is the fact you seem to mix up soviets and jews. Obviously, a lot of jews were communists (which I blame on the fact that communism offered them the hope to be real, equal citizens and not second rate subhumans who have to go through a pogrom every 5 years). I'm even willing to admit that many of them hold high offices in the Komintern, or in local communist parties in Europe. But you seem to imply that the soviets behaved badly only because the jews told them to. It almost sounds like the jews conspirated against Romania since the very beginning. As if Romania wasn't invaded because it joined the axis in 1940 and attacked USSR, but because the jews wanted to destroy Romania.
You're blaming the crimes of the Red Army and of the soviet administration on the jews. No offense, and I'm going to pull a Godwin here, but wasn't that one of the main nazi mental scheme? The whole judeo-bolshevik conspiracy. As if the average Abraham, whose family had been deported, tortured and executed, was responsible for what the Red Army had done in 1940 and in the immediate post-war era.

This is something that has always bothered me. Antisemits from the left claim that "the evil joos" control the world through capitalism, while antisemits from the right claim that the same evil joos threaten the world through communism.

[Beskar]

What about the tourists?

I always found history, and especially WW2 quite intresting. Until this thread. Somehow such a debate seems useles to me and bores me more than watching horses all day.

Unless someone can incorporate some camels in the history...I'm out.

Can't believe I started that off.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Cronos, thank you for taking the time to post these elaborate replies. I would like to delve deeper into this matter, but a)I've put my cards pretty much on the table in my previous post, and b) all the posts I want to write would take me one-and-a-half hours.

I might return at a later point to add some of my thoughts.


Oh, forgot to say earlier, yes, please let this be an open thread, and not a boring one-on-one debate.

[Strike For The South]

When did Krook change his user name?

[Cronos Impera]

Mendill, here is the timeline of the atrocities.

1920: The Communist Party is born (all pro-Soviet Jews)
1920: Anna Robinsohn bombs the Parliment (1 bishop killed, 1 bishop wounded, the Minister of Justice wounded, many soldiers dead)
1921: New Cosntitution and Land Reforms (the Jews get a minority party to represent them in Parliment, new land reforms destitute Jewish land owners)
19XX: The Iron Guard is born at Jessy University from the Romanian students, first anti-semitic action in form of banning Jewish students from attending Senate meetings.
1939: The Fascist Trials (the Iron Guard elite are executed at Tancabesti by Gandarmerie)
6 July 1940: The atrocities against Romanian refugees commited by Jews (300000 deportees, 30000 exectued, 43000 Romanian soldiers wounded, killed or missing)
1941-1944: The atrocities commited by Romanians against Jews (180000 dead) and reprisals by Jews agaist the deportees (15000 Romanian civilians ware gunned down at Saratov as reprisal against the Odessa progrom)
23 August 1944: Romania switches sides (180000 Romanian soldiers end in gulags, many are dead)
1946-1847: 200000 Romanian civilians die in the famine, Bessarabian Jews take control of the Politbuiro
1948-1952: Communist Jews change their fammily names, cover evidence and exterminate roughly 80000 Romanian dissidents

So Mendill we have a genocide started by the Jews, interupted by a genocide against them, and continued after the Allied victory. A genocide is still a genocide, no matter what precedents there might be.

[Cronos Impera]

Mendill
1.The death toll is taken from "The Extermination of the European Jews" by Hillberg, I'm not lowering the numbers.
2.Ion Antonescu was a liberal, not a fascist (this also comes when wiping out the Fascist elites), the other Antonescu was a liberal
3.After 23 August 1940 jews took control of all Romanian towns and villages from the Romanian population
4. The Entante collapse gave us no choice.The soviets had 300000 Romanian hostages in gulags or frieght trains.The reconquering of Bessarabia and Bukovina meant certain death to them.
5. After Operation Barbarossa begun, Stalin became Churchill's ally.We had to sign a pact with the German army, since Stalinist plans included the Annexation of whole Moldova.Your unholy alliance spawned our unholy alliance. After the German defeat became certain, we changed sides again.
6. The jews coordinated the soviet settlers in Bukovina and Bessarabia. All comitee leaders ware drawn from the Jewish community despite the ethnic diversity of the region.

7. The 180000 figure is drawn from Moldova and Transnistria. There was never a progrom in the South. I can still post you images of intact syangogues and jewish schools from Bucharest and Transylvania, as well as intact communities.
8. These ware Askhenazi not Sephardic Jews, not Ethiopians, not Cohen, not else.
9. I've always admired the way the Diaspora suports itself (a thight relief and financial network to support communities). Any blow against one community is absorbed by the entire diaspora. Why should a rogue band of individuals sidetrack from their immediate goal (A sionist state in Israel) and found a communist party whose goal was control over Moldova and the annihilation of Romania.Why would Jewish-born Bella Cohen (Kun) invade Romania with a Communist Army in WW1?
Why wasn't the diaspora ferm about his conduct and impeach him. Anna Pauker was the daughter of a rabbi. Why was she involved with the death of a bishop and an atheist party.
Why did she change her name? WHy did Anna Robinsohn become Anna Pauker when she could have kept her fammily name.

Burah Tescovich -> Teohari Gerogescu (head of Securitatea)...see Maurice Pinay , The Plot against the Church

All Jewish Communists from 1940 have their family names. In 1948 they all Romanise their names. If they ware sionists you would have them Yiddish -> Hebrew, not Yiddish-> Romanian.
Just like a anti-semite would change his Ethnic name into a Hebrew one to make his crimes look like simple ones and get a lighter conviction. They changed their names so they could install terror upon the Romanian population without jeoperdising their ethinc group.
10.
Chişinău - lawyer Steinberg – head of the Soviet
Chilia Nouă - dr. Robinovici, doctor, head of the local comitee
Soroca - Leizer Ghinsberg – terrorist coordinator

11. The only area where the Genocides occured is Transnistria and N.Romania. S.Romania never experienced Genocide.
12. Those Jews who took control over Bessarabia ware native jews, not German/Israel/Hungarian jews.
13. Try Maurice Pinay (a list of CP members),Nagy Talvera (1 paragrpah) ,Nicolae Iorga, (Why so much hate?)

[Cronos Impera]

Generic answer as predicted from other discussions expected from Mendill, Louis.

a) "you can't trust Romanian sources during the war as they ware anti-semitic. All Romanian army was anti-Semitic. Nicolae Iorga was anti-semitic. You all know the Romanian officers ware clearly anti-semitic and those articles are biased."

Nicolae Iorga convicted Corneliu Zelea Codreanu to death. You can't convict the head of the Fascist party to death and still call yourself an anti-semite. For this he was executed by the Fascists.
Numbers don't lie. If you have x people in 1939 and x-y people in 1952 that means y people ware killed.

2. "Those atrocities you describe are Soviet ones, not Jewish ones"

Wrong. If there was no Jewish state to post blame upon for the atrocities that doesn't mean the minority should not accpet blame for the actions of its members. Just like Romanians are imposed the faults of the Antonescu regime, so should the Askhenazi minority be imposed the actions of solicitor Steinberg, Moises Haupt.

3. "All Romanians ware anti-semitic and discrimination against Jews was frequent in Romania."

So let me get things strait. One side takes the front door when issueing profanities. The other takes the Backdoor and still manages to get its profanities across. Then, when confronting the other side you blame the umbrella? That is simply unacceptable.

When two throw rocks at eachother , you arrest a man and a rock? Don't you arrest the two men instead?

4."The discrimination against Jews ended when the Soviets came. The Jews ware given appropriate titles denied to them during the previous anti-semitic administration"

I knew this would come. Untill 23 August despite anti-semitic organisations, Jews ware allowed to open a Theater in Bucharest, build 4-5 synagogues, numeorus schools as well as gain acces to liberal professions such as medicine, law and commerce. The Jewish Union was a recognised political entity through out the interwar period.

5."The ressurgence of anti-semitism was on an European level. Why should this case be different?"

Again you would judge the event through the prism of the French experience. You can't mix the Holocaust and Jewsih progrom in Romania despite simmilarities between victims. Bessarabian Jews waren't sent to Auschwitz, despite political alliance between Germany and Romania. The personal approach taken by the Antonescu regime proves this was a personal yet criminal vendetta and not anti-semites jumping to the bloodbath. Other satelite dictators like Mussolini deported their Jews to Auschwitz, yet Antonescu was personally involved?

You just can't use the generic "Anti-semites killed Jews. Anti-semites used a pretext just like the Reichstag bombing to deal with their criminal intentions"

The 1920 Senate bombing didn't spawn a progrom.No anti-semitic legislation was passed after the bombings.The 1940 Genocide did, and anti-semitic legislation was passed.

You can spawn a Romanian conspiracy against Jews just like anti-semites spawn a Jewish conspiracy against the world in this matter. It won't help your mental sanity either.

If there was anti-semitic lobby in the democratic Romanian Parliment then the Jews could have started their own civil rights lobby and no bloodbath would have happened.Starting a bloodbath because the other side hates you is still murder.

A Babylonian Rabbi once said
"Do not do upon your neighbour what would harm you. That is all the Torah, the rest is only comment."

That is my final point.

"No hostility from the other side should warrant murder." Just like anti-semitism from one side doesn't warrant Jewish crimes against it.This works the other way around too "No anti-Romanian feelings from one side should warrant Romanian crimes against them."

Your goal in this thread Mendill is to defeat an anti-semite, mine is to ensure that all dead have their justice and that criminals are punished.
Yours are political, mine are humanitarian.

[Cronos Impera]

Further anticipated replies

"Ok so you're saying Jews recieved equal rights in Romania. Where is your proof."

The Constitution was based on the Belgian one which was the most liberal in the World at that time.

"So no Jewish mayors are known of before 1940"

The minority was only 11% at best in Moldova.The Jewish minority was mainly concentrated in large urban areas where its infulience was greatly diminuished by the huge masses of Romanians, Ukrainians, Poles and Turks.The fact that Jews ware allowed to advance in their traditional areas such as law, commerce and phylosophy shows that jews ware tolerated at that time.

"The Romanian army was anti-semitic so you would expect this reprts to be blood libel in expectance of an immninent genocide"

The facts don't fit with this version. First of all, many officers ware members of the Masonery.
Secondly, the army had supressed previous anti-semitic uprisings which ware provoked by Tzarist agents in 1907: many of the original officers ware still active in the army so you can't dismiss all reports as blood libel. Also, the Army was resposible for the liquidation of the Fascists at Tancabesti.

If the execution of Corneliu Zelea Codreanu, the banning of the Legion and the Masonic ties in the Army cannot convince you the Romanian army was and still is an unbiased defender of all Romanian citizens than you are clearly ignoring facts and you can nothingain all day.


"So what if the majority of Romanian communists ware jews. Can't you just judge them as communists. That is simply fascist thinking."

Solomon's Kingdom fell because the jews ware split ideologically. The Kingdom split into two (Judah and Israel) and the two kingdoms fell under the Assyrians. Had the division not occured, we would still have a Biblical Kingdom with its capital at Jerusalem. Without a land and divided among many foreign tribes a diaspora was necessary to ensure the survival of the Mosaics. Ideological fractures meant the distruction of the Diaspora and the Askhenazi learnt that lesson well.

Anna Pauker couldn't just rennounce her faith without rebuttal from their comunities.She was the daughter of a rabbi, communism denied the existance of God.Her actions demanded "Cherem". Yet no communist jew recieved rebuttal from his/hers immediate circle.Just like the Iron Guard ware rebuked by the Romanians, so the Jews could have rebuked their Communist Party and the two nations would have eliminated the mafia and proclaimed town victory.

But the jews had no intention of surrendering their terrorist elements for a proper trial (national, international, you name it). They even obtained Soviet citizenship for the likes of Anna Robinsohn and Moises Haupt.

[PershsNhpios]

Posted by Cronos Impera

"Numbers don't lie. If you have x people in 1939 and x-y people in 1952 that means y people ware killed."



I refute this argument as complete poppycock.

Some of them could have died due to natural causes.

[Brenus]

I normally wouldn’t intervene in a debate. However, if I read well what you wrote Cronos, we have a Judeo Bolshevik Masonic plot against Rumania. Do you know how it smells?

[Cronos Impera]

Yeah, but that is also the logic behind the progrom 180000 figure for Romania.

Using the same logicin a Holocaust thread would have branded you an anti-semite. Since we have precedents for this logic, I am forced to assume that the y figure means victims of ethnic clensing.

The Jews say:
"There ware x Jews then, now there are only x-y.Y of our people ware killed."

The Romanians say:
"There ware x Romanians then, now there are only x-y.Y of our people ware killed."

One is from Deborah Lipstadt, the other is from Paul Goma, both experts on their areas. I'm sure that delving into the other's fieldwork would have delayed their own enquiry and generated superficial results.

Mendill and Louis, as well as Hooahguy suspect I'm trying to steal the spotlight of the Holocaust with my genocide debate.They think that if this genocide gets into the history books racism and hate will prevail and that anti-semites world wide from Hamas to the Aryan Brotherhood would bandwaggon on this thread.

The purpose of the Holocaust story is to point at Romanians who still hate Jews. The purpose of the Romanian genocide is to point at Jews who still hate Romanians. They are complementary and not opposing if combined in one story for both groups.

The point of that story is:
a) Help your neighbour (both jews and romanians)
b) Respect your hosts (to the jews)
c) Respect your guests (to the romanians)
d) When visiting a house you always come with a present for your host (to the jews)
e) When recieving a guest you provide him with food, shelter and entertainment (to the romanians)
f) When someone evicts your host you leave with your host (to the jews)
g) If your guest hasn't left when you ware evicted you don't evict him yourself (to the romanians)

Cover all those steps I ensure you all hate and fear gets dispelled. Without fear and hate the two communites might finally get a decent cooperation.

The Nurenberg trials ware instrumented according by Germanic law and so it set some legal standards. First of all it accepted eyewitness testimony regarding killing operations, secondly it also excepted a "common voice" for multiple war crimes, thirdly it accepted the "meeting of minds" as a conspiracy when no written documents pointed in that direction.Lastly, it refused reciprocity.

I define reciprocity by saying that war crimes commited against you by third parties don't diminuish personal guilt as regarding your own conduct.

So, Louis and Mendill:

Beating a dead horse is usefull, when trying to impress a camel

[Cronos Impera]

Yeah Brennus, I know it smells like anti-semitic propaganda from the '20 but here are the events.

A nation is fragmented in a huge diaspora, spread through many countries. Interests shown differ from place to place.

France, UK, Germany or any other Western states had no other things to offer except great deals, a nice educational system, some nice neighbours and nice scenary.

However, Bessarabia and Transnistria ware vital to the Askhenazi community.

To the Yiddish speakers we have Uman as a pilgrimage site in Transnistria and countless other Synagogues and Talmud schools.You can drive 2 days into Ukraine and end in the Askhenazi homeland and the ruins of the Khazar Empire. It had been barely a milennia since it was founded.

This wasn't an community made from "wandering jews", this was an allready established community, second only to the Romanian one in Bukovina. While Sephardim Jews ware Sionists, this group wanted to remain in the area and had no intention of establishing a state in Palestine.

I'm not talking about SIONISTS here.

Stalin gave Romanians (called Moldovans for propaganda reasons) MSSR in Transnistria. After seeing their main ally Trotsky removed from the Comintern, it was crittical for Bessarabian Jews to earn the dictator's favour before the Ukrainians managed to do so. They had, along with Gagauz and Tatars, failed to win at Tatarbunary. The Soviet occupation of N.Moldova was the only opportunity they had to show they deserved the special status as written in the Constitution regarding anti-semitism.
The Romanian army couldn't fire a single bullet without triggering a war. Unlike some of their Romanian counterparts the Jews aren't stupid. A single retaliation against a Soviet citizen during the withdrawal meant war. Despite its reputation, the Romanian army was unprepared for war on the scale which happened in Finland.Romanian geography and armament had brought them the nickname "cannon fodder" and so, despite carrying their full gear they ware not authorised to retaliate. Jews ware allready Soviet citizens. For Ukrainians and Gagauz minority the situation was uncertian. All ware afraid of religious-economic consequences like losing the land via collectivisation. Germans ware allready in Germany and Poles ware pro-Romanian. Also, when you look at name lists for the new administration you see that 99% of all offices are occupied by Jews.

They simply raced against time to secure their influience before the Ukrainians and Bulgars ware given those seats by Stalin. That and showing gratitude towards Stalin for their protection.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Well Cronos, I would love to go over every point of the 'Jewish Holocaust against Romania'. But I won't. Painstakingly rubbishing each claim would take weeks, and at any rate has been before. I shall have to let my links speak for me, some provided earlier in this thread, others I'll post below.


~~-~~-~~-<<oOo>>-~~-~~-~~

More interesting is the question when these ideas came about, and how widespread they still are. I believed until last week that Romanian denial followed the narrative 'We only defended Romania against Bolshevism, everybody else (specifically, the fascist states of Hungary and Germany) performed the Holocaust'.

But oh dear, it runs much deeper than that. The narrative is 'Jews started the war against Romania. The Russian occupation of Moldova/Bessarabia was a Jewish initiative. The Jews are responsible for the Romanian deaths. Romania's attack against the Jews was self-defense, at least rightful revenge. The Jewish attacks continued well after the war.

Justice demands that the Jews apologise to Romania.'

...

It is breathtaking.


Sadly, I believe that a majority of Romanians believe this. These ideas came about in the second half of the 19th century. Intensified during WWI (which saw pogroms very much alike to what happened in WWII, which undermines the relevance of the 'Jewish crimes of 1940'). The fascist narratives were supressed under communism. After 1989, they were revived, glorified. Since 2002-2004, with Romania's entry into NATO and the EU, slowly Romania's role in WWII has come under critical survey.


~~-~~-~~-<<oOo>>-~~-~~-~~

I do wonder, is this, Cronos, why you were so outraged by Mendill's rather casual remarks about Napoleon's emancipation of European Jewry? I assume that in your worldview, this was not a casual remark, but glorification of the Jewish attack on Romania?

Twice within a few weeks you opened a thread in the Watchtower. Both were somewhat confusing. Each was about Joycamptouring after some French poster made a remark about Jews. On both occasions I only half understood what the problem was, why you should've been so outraged at the mere mention of Romania and Jews.

But yes, if one understands modern history as a Jewish attack against Romania, then indeed it would be an outrageous provocation - that should be banned from the .org - for Mendill or Loius to even dare mention Jewish emancipation or bring up Romania's role in WWII.


~~-~~-~~-<<oOo>>-~~-~~-~~

Now that Whacker has outed me as a pretentious fart in this thread, I might as well stop pretending otherwise and say: 'See. Loius isn't merely provocating or only half serious. There is more to WWII than the internets version of it about cool crispy clean nazi-uniforms, discplined unbeatable Germans, and the outrageous crimes of Dresden and Versailles. There is a world of filth underneath, ill-understood, dirty little wars that are now in danger of being considered laughable provocations when brought up on the interwebs'.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have been browsing the internets, some links worthy of posting:

http://www.aidh.org/lirecoutevoir/livr_shoah_roum.htm
The Black Book about the destruction of Roumanina Jewry. Written shortly after WWII, and quickly banned by the communist regime in Bucharest, it was translated and annotated into French this year.
Il s’agit de la principale source d’information sur l’extermination sauvage, par l’armée et la gendarmerie roumaines, de près de 400’000 Juifs roumains et ukrainiens, un chapitre encore largement méconnu de la Shoah à l’est de l’Europe. Comme l’écrit pourtant Raul Hilberg, "aucun pays, Allemagne exceptée, ne participa aussi massivement au massacre des Juifs". Le Premier ministre et conduca?tor [dictateur] roumain, Ion Victor Antonescu, avait fait le choix de l'alliance avec Hitler et l’Allemagne nazie, et envoyé des troupes en Bessarabie, puis en Union soviétique jusqu’à Stalingrad.

Initialement publié à Bucarest entre 1946 et 1948, en trois volumes, cette chronique "de sang et de larmes", pour reprendre l’expression de son auteur, fait enfin partie des rares documents de premier plan sur la Shoah à avoir été publié dès l’immédiat après-guerre. Rapidement mis à l’index par le régime communiste, il tombera ensuite dans l’oubli. Soixante ans après sa parution, ce volume, accompagné d’un très substantiel appareil critique et iconographique, constitue donc la toute première traduction intégrale du Livre noir de Matatias Carp, enfin accessible au public occidental.



http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,594036,00.html


12/03/2008

Holocaust education is normal in Germany. But in some parts of Europe, where much of the killing took place, the past is buried under layers of politics and history. A Moldovan group is installing monuments to the ill-remembered slaughter of Romanian Jews.

As an 11-year-old boy, Alexander Bantush watched Fascist soldiers beat a Jewish fiddler in the village of Brichevo with sticks. They forced him to play his violin and dance barefoot on broken glass. The scene is so iconic of the Holocaust it might be from a war film, or a painting by Chagall, an image of theshtetl where the details fill in themselves. But the soldiers weren't Nazis. Bantush is Moldovan, born in Romania, and the Romanian soldiers were acting on orders from their own dictator, Ion Antonescu, instead of Hitler.

Romania has slowly begun looking at its Holocaust past. Moldova, though, has been more active. Here, a Bucharest synagogue during a 2006 relgious service commemorating victims of a 1941 pogrom.

This year a small organization in Moldova has been reviving memories about the Holocaust in a corner of Eastern Europe where it's in danger of being forgotten. Nemurire, a nonprofit run by a local historian named Iurie Zargocha, has installed a number of stone monuments across the northern Moldovan countryside to commemorate the path of death marches and the sites of mass Jewish graves during World War II.


"You hear about the Holocaust on a mass-number scale, six million," said Daria Fane, an officer at the US embassy in Moldova who has helped Nemurire. "But here it's village by village." Locals like Bantush, who remember watching the atrocities as children, are invited to speak at the ceremonies. "They've lived with these memories for years, and nobody cared," said Fane. "It was taboo in the Soviet era."


Iurie Zargocha, facing camera left, and Alexander Bantush, head bowed in front of the monument, dedicating the Holocaust monument in Frasin on Sunday.

On Sunday, Nemurire dedicated its sixth Moldovan monument in Frasin, not far from Brichevo. It commemorated a death march that stopped here one day in 1941. Romanian soldiers decided to kill 300 of the Jews they were marching from the town of Edinet. They forced the prisoners to undress, and started pulling gold-filled teeth from their jaws with pliers while they were still alive, said Alexander Bantush, who gave a statement. Bantush isn't Jewish, but for some Moldovans it's a source of pride to distance themselves from official Romanian wartime policy.


"The Jews that lived in Brichevo were good people," he said on Sunday. "I remember people sneaking milk to the Jews (who) marched through the village ... People were risking their lives and gave the last milk they had." He added, "The people of Frasin will respect this monument, will guard it and teach our children what 'Holocaust' means. The Jews were our friends and they deserve for this history to be known."

Layers of History

Romania and the now-independent state of Moldova have suffered so much grim history since 1945 that the Holocaust is rarely discussed. But Romania was allied with Nazi Germany in the war. When the Nazis crossed through here to invade Russia in 1941, Romania took the opportunity to move its Jews to a region across the Dniester River, which now separates the Romanian-speaking part of Moldova from its Slavic part known as Transnistria. This ethnic-cleansing policy is one of the most ill-remembered chapters of the Holocaust.

"Once they had gotten a taste of the license which prevailed in the first days of the war (among the Germans)," writes Avigdor Shachan, a witness and historian of the Romanian Holocaust, in his book Burning Ice, "Romanian soldiers embarked on operations at their own initiative, engaging in murder and torture in every Jewish settlement which they passed." Shachan quotes an address to the Romanian government by the country’s dictator, Ion Antonescu, who argued in favor of "expelling the Jews from Bessarabia and Bukovina (now, roughly, Moldova) to the other side of the border … There is nothing for them to do here and I don’t mind if we appear in history as barbarians."

The result of this policy was a series of death marches behind the front line of German and Romanian soldiers. The number of dead and deported is impossible to determine, but a 2004 report by the Romanian government estimates the range at 280,000 to 380,000.

The Holocaust was taboo in post-war Romania because Jews weren’t remembered in official Soviet history as Hitler's main victims: communists were. In Soviet history books, it was communists across Eastern Europe who helped Russia beat back the Nazis. A whole generation of Romanians were raised to believe they and their parents were heroes for participating in Russia's great struggle with Hitler.


"These small countries don't feel any responsibility," said Judit Miklos, a Romanian living in Berlin, referring to Eastern Europe. "They were on the victim side (of history) … Small countries always have such a complex, and they use it as an excuse -- that they always were part of the game of larger powers. The arguments tend in this direction in Romania."


For Romania, the 2004 government report marked a tentative departure from consistent denial. Following mid-2002 statements by then-President Ion Iliescu to the effect that there had been no Holocaust in Romania -- and the resulting outcry -- a commission was appointed to look into the country's World War II treatment of Jews. The 2004 report resulted, and on October 9 of that year, the country marked its first ever Holocaust Commemoration Day.

In Moldova, the process has been a different one. Between the world wars it was called the "Moldavian Republic," but Romania always had claims on the land. Some Romanian soldiers who joined the Nazi invasion of Russia stayed behind in Moldavia as an occupying force. Later the Soviet army invaded, on its way to Germany, and until 1991 the region was called the Moldovian SSR.

"This whole country has a victim complex," said Amy Dunayevich, an American Peace Corps volunteer who has helped Nemurire dedicate five monuments this year. "They were victims of the Soviet Union, and so there's actually a joke out here that the best time in Moldova was when Romania left and before Russia came," near the end of World War II. "That lasted like a month."

Dunayevich said Moldovans had a largely untroubled relationship with local Jews. It was "separate, but peaceful," she said. "So when Moldovans talk about Jews you don't hear the hate." Nevertheless, the Romanian Holocaust is "not something that they advertise. It's not something they talk about in schools."

Iurie Zagorcha and his wife started Nemurire in 2002. Zagorcha, who speaks no English, is Moldovan but not Jewish. He taught history during the Soviet era. "His grandparents hid Jews during the war and I think he feels it is his responsibility to speak for the victims who can't speak for themselves," Dunayevich said.

REUTERS

Not past: Modern "Guardists" commemorate the death of Corneliu Zelea Codreanu, the head of Romania's Fascist Iron Guard, on November 29.

The monuments focus on "instances of mass murder" in the northern Moldovan district of Edinet, where the city of Edinet (pronounced "Yedinitz") is located. Once 80 percent Jewish, the city was largely a ghetto during World War II. Now there are very few Jews in Moldova, and almost no one inclined to remember the Holocaust. In fact a day before the Nemurire ceremony, on November 29, a small group of right-wing Romanians staged an annual march in a forest north of Bucharest, with torches, to commemorate the leader of Romania's Fascist paramilitary wing, the notorious Iron Guard.


"We talk a lot about tolerance but might not understand entirely what it means," Zagorcha said at the Nemurire ceremony on Sunday, before about 70 people. "The children who are here today ... can (now) understand what it means to be of different religions or nationalities but still be respectful to one another. These children will ensure that this monument will not be defaced and that it will continue to stand as a reminder of intolerance leading to horrific tragedy, and these children are our hope that this kind of tragedy will never happen again."

Alexander Bantush said that on the day he remembered, in 1941, about 300 Jews were ordered to stand naked beside a trench. After the soldiers took their jewelry and pulled out their gold teeth, he said, they "began to push people, still alive, into the ditch ... People were trying to climb out. Understanding they were being buried alive, they began to scream, 'Kill us! Kill us!' ... The ground breathed, up and down -- I had never seen anything like it in my life and wish for no one to ever see what I saw that day."

The image of shifting, breathing soil also occurs inBurning Ice, which is the definitive history of the Romanian Holocaust. Live burial seems to have been a method in a number of mass graves, sometimes just to save ammunition. The image also appears in more than one witness account collected by Nemurire. "The ground," as Dunayevich puts it, "was moving all over the north of Moldova in 1941."



Especially for our American friends, since I am that much of spiteful pest (:tongue:), the face of 'New Europe', so beloved by Bush and Rumsfeld.
- The Polish nationalists - whose narrative is well-known to regular visitors to the .org.
- The Georgian adventurer, who risked a war with Russia believing that the Americans would help him after he joined the invasion in Iraq.
- And Romania, which started a charm offensive in America in 2001-2002. Whom did the 'New Europe' Romanian government target? The US Jewish lobby. Why? Because...the idea was widespread in the Romanian government of this time that Jews run the world, and specifically America.


Even the "pro-Jewish" attitude adopted by many Romanian officials is often based on the simplistic belief that the Jews control world politics and finance and Jewish favour can bring benefits to Romania. ]/b]


When the PSD came to power in November 2000, after 4 years as the main opposition party, the primary objective of the new leadership was to ensure that Romania would be invited to start negotiations in 2002 to permanently join NATO. A previously unheard of PR and image-improvement campaign began to promote Romania's interests. A multitude of official visits to countries considered as strategic for this purpose were conducted.

Entry into NATO was to be, and has been, presented to the Romanian population as a historical political achievement. It has become a campaign tool in efforts to gain re-election for the Government in 2004.

Being aware that without the full support of the US Government, Senate and Congress this goal would not be achieved, leaders of Romania focused exclusively, beginning January 2001, on putting together a public relations effort which would convince the United States that NATO needs Romania more than Romania needs NATO.

[b]The Romanian Government's public relations campaign targeted American Jewish organizations, based on deeply-rooted and questionable assumptions about the power and influence of the U.S. Jewish community. This extensive PR effort, targeted entities within the US and Israel (government and non governmental organizations) that they believed could offer their support to Romanian efforts to enter into NATO.

In June 2001, as a part of these efforts, a large Governmental delegation led by the Romanian Prime Minister Adrian Nastase visited Israel. In November 2001, another delegation led by Mr. Nastase visited the US and met leaders of the American Jewish community.
The Romanian Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Gioana, also made a special effort to win Jewish support on the behalf of Romanian desire to join NATO. Mr. Gioana, who was a successful Ambassador of Romania in Washington, is familiar with the U.S. Jewish community.
More meetings with Jewish personalities took place during the visits Romanian officials made to the US in late January and early February 2002.

[Louis VI the Fat]

There are ambiguities worthy of note:


- Antonescu, WWII dictator, was three times engaged with a Jewish woman, and married one. Who bore him a Jewish child. His father re-married to a Jewish woman as well.

- Jews have been living in Romanian lands since medieval times. But not on a large scale. Only in the 19th century did Jews move into especially Moldova in large numbers. This was considered a threat by native Romanian speaking peoples.
Romania at this time was a mostly rural society, itself in the process of political emancipation, which was contemporaneous with Jewish emancipation. Jews did very well, settled and newcomers alike. Who really did own a vastly disproportionate share of new finance, new businesses, and landed estates. It does not require an anti-Semitic mind to understand that the Jewish presence, emancipation and large immigration was felt as a threat to Romania.

- Germany attacked Jews indiscriminately. Romania attacked Jews mostly in occupied lands. Jews within 'smalller Romania' had a high survival rate. Romania did not indiscriminately seek to murder every Jew, nor even every Romanian Jew. Half of Romanian Jewry, mostly in areas of established Jewish presence, survived. This number is much higher than in most Central and West European nations.

- Romania in 1940 lost much of its territory to Stalin, as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. It is not necessarily unreasonable to describe Romania's attack of the Soviet Union alongside Hitler Germany as in itself an act of self-defense. It is during this attack that most of the attacks against Jews were performed.
Exactly why the Jews ought to be blamed for Molotov-Ribbentrop is beyond me. Vengeance was enacted upon them. The common explanation, then and now, is that Bolshevism was a Jewish system.

[Cronos Impera]

Regarding the emmancipation of the French Jews:
Louis, most Romanians are Napoleon-huggers. Because Napoleon was an enemy of Austria, Russia and the Ottoman Empire. So whenever Napoleon gets accused of something << clubbing baby seals, stealing candy>>, Romanians react. My pro-Napoleon stance was a little biased because of that. Most Bessarabian Romanians associate Napoleon with all the good stuff at the beginning of the 20'th century.

So I wasn't anti-semitic when I reacted to Mendill, I was simply expressing that biased atttitude towards Napoleon (I was expecting you French to worship him like some sort of a God).Had he replaced Napoleon with a Burbon I would have agreed. I replied Mendill simply because it was a shock to me that a French could loathe Napoelon, when among Romanians he has earned some idol status. That was all. Yes, I'm a Napoleon fanboy.

Louis, glad you spoted that ambiguities.

Here is my understanding of the situation:

Jews have lived alongisde Romanians in Moldova since 1000 AD ( we have a rabbinical letter which mentions Erdely during this period.The first mention of Erdely is in a rabbinical writing). That makes the Jewish diaspora in Romania the oldest in Europe.

In 1808 Moldova is split by the Russian Empire.The diaspora is also divided. In Romania Ghica issues the only anti-semitic law you could find worthy of interest "Jews are banned from settling in villages."

In Bessarabia both the Romanian and Jewish elements ware persecuted (Romanians ware denationalised, forced to learn Russian, uprooted or deported; Jews ware killed during the Kisinev progrom of 1903).

When WW1 ended, Jews in Transcarpathia and Bessarabia welcomed the Romanian forces because they ware better than the White Russian anti-semitic elements which haunted the region.

Meanwhile Soviet Russia managed the complete emancipation of the jews that is it passed legislation which banned anti-semitism. Many Jews desired that kind of emancipation which was not yet possible in Romania (corruption and power struggles between the many parties prevented satisfactory legislation to be passed).

Hostility as you mentioned from the Romanian population during the 1907 paysan uprisings saw a couple of Jews killed.Most Holocaust scholars avoid this episode because the army back then under the command of Ion Antonescu crushed the rebellion in a bloodbath.Can you imagine a paysan uprising in 20 century Europe?. Most scholars who research anti-semitism in Romania avoid this incident because it would conflict with the ideea that anti-semitism was widespread and found support from the Army.

Here are some ambiguites.

Why didn't Bessarabian Jews protest the signing of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact? After all, their champion, the Soviet Union signed a pact which had thousands of Polish Jews fell under anti-semitic laws. If the Jews ware truely one voice, why didn't they raise it for their Polish bretheren?
The obvious answer was "Interesul poarta fesul" or their agenda was different then that of the Polish Jews.In the early 1940 Jews ware not an unified mass, that unification came only after Israel was estwblished and the Jews finally had a common ground.

The Soviets had plenty of reasons to handle leadership of the occupied area to the Jews.
a) They ware among the most loyal citizens
b) They ware literate
c) They ware gratefull for the complete emmancipation brought by the Soviet Constitution
d) They feared the not-yet-fully-emmancipated Romanians
e) They feared anti-Semitism among the Romanian population.

So fear of anti-semitism among the Jews combined with their brilliant logistics recommanded them for offices in the occupied Bessarabia and Bukovina.The task of deporting Romanians and coordinating the Russian immigrants fell on the Jewish leaders.The persecutions continued up to Galati. The Soviet plan included the expansion up to Siret R.

In the South (Oltenia and Unnocupied Transylvania) the geopolitical conditions ware different and this areas became a safe refuge for many Hungarian Jews. Romanian jews established here ware never persecuted.In fact Cluj (Kolosvar) rabbi MOSHE CARMILLY WEFNBERGER found refuge in Romania.

I am fully aware that there was no Jewish conspiracy regarding Romania.Geopolitically speaking, the Jews themselves ware divided and Jewish accounts differ.

Have you seen the level of violence in some prisons. Wrongly accused gentlemen bullying eachother.Neither Jews or Romanians had a choice those days and the bloodshed was horrible. However I see no reason to ignore the loss of life from the Romanian side, which as you said wasn't fully emancipated. Just like Prussian Iron or Hooahguy see no reason to ignore the loss of life from their side.

Here we can't have a pattern as observed elsewhere: The Iron Guard was exterminated by the Antonescu regime, the Antonescu regime was obliterated by the Army before its defeat could happen, Romania changed sides during the war, before 1939 the Fascist elite was wiped out.

Link (http://www.romanianjewish.org/ro/cap8.html)

"Jews in Romania owe to Antonescu both life and death"

That is why we have different accounts. That is why I deal with war crimes commited in Moldova and Bessarabia by and against 1/2 of my people (I am 1/2 Romanian, 1/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 Polish).
Antonescu is considered a war criminal by both fascists and Jews.
Likewise I belive the likes of Anna Pauker and Moises Haupt could be considered criminals by both Romanians and Jews.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I understand that there are ambiguities, historical complexities. Which one must bear in mind to understand Romanians are not one-dimensional Draculas feeding on Jewish babies. I want to know what happened in 1940, and how these events are regarded in Romania today.


None of which exonerates guilt. There is no two sides fighting. There is Romania going on a killer spree, and overwhelmingly unarmed Jews being murdered. Some Jews possibly throwing some rocks at some Romanians is not commonly understood a grave enough insult to the pride of the nation to kill 300k to 400k innocents. (Yes, and not 180.000, a number which not even your source for it, Hilberg, arrived at. With the exception of Germany, no other country bears the responsibility for as many Jewish deaths as Romania.)

What was left of Romanian Jewry, dissapeared after WWII. There are barely any Jews left anymore. The etnic cleansing has been complete, and has been carried out before, during and after WWII. Romanian pogroms started in the 19th century. They took on a new level of violence directly following WWI. And saw a level of depravity unheard of in the whole of the history of civilized Europe after the Nazis offered both the template and a historical circumstance.

My link earlier to the Romanian historian Pippidi showed the continuity of Romanian anti-semitic ideology and violence, which makes all endless exploration of any Jewish misconduct in 1940 rather moot. When four KKK members lynch a Black person, does one endlessly explore every possible direct provocation this Black man may possibly have caused on the day of his murder, any funny looks he may have given, or does one understand the murder in light of the existing racism of the KKK members?
Louis, most Romanians are Napoleon-huggers. Because Napoleon was an enemy of Austria, Russia and the Ottoman Empire.What's fun, is that French Republicanism historically is the patron of Poland, of Romania, and of continental Jewry. An explosive combination. :beam:

[Megas Methuselah]

When did Krook change his user name?

Was wondering about that myself.

[Cronos Impera]

So, ladies and gentlemen, regardless of your personal features lets probe into Louis' mind and comprehend his moral system a bit.I call it Pokemon Ethics.
Pokemon ethics rely on the use of Auras. Instead of members, for Pokemon ethics relies on macro entities to understand the world.

Whenever a group gets wronged in any way it recieves a charge of Martyr Aura. If present,Martyr Aura can be used to draw simpathy and love. When the perscribed group wrongs another, it isn't blamed, it just uses its Martyr Aura.

So, here are his ethics regarding the debate.

Ghica issues an edict which bans Jews from owning rural dwellings (slight charge for the Marty Aura). Jewish terrorists blow the Romanian Parliment;5 people get killed (drop in the Martyr Aura).Jews gain control over Bessarabia and start killing Romanians <<60000 killed, 300000 deported>> to "clear the ground" for Russian settlers (Martyr Aura lost). Progroms start in N.Romania<<300000 Jewish deaths in total in Transnistria and Bessarabia>> (Martyr Aura regained).Jewish retaliations at Saratov (15000 Romanian civillians get executed).Romania loses the war <<200000 Romanian civilians killed in Bessarabia, 180000 Romanian soldiers executed, 80000 Romanians die in death camps set by Anna Pauker, Moises Haupt and others>> (Martyr Aura depleated again).

But wait, Martyr Aura can recieve bonus charges via unification, the Holocaust has recharged the Martyr Aura for the Besarabian Jews.

That is your morality in words. As long as your favorite faction recieves a beating you simply close your eyes and allow injustice to occur for the other faction. This is no longer a debate between an apologist and a philo-semite, this is a debate between a normal person for who an injustice is injustice <<me>> and a exterminationist (someone for whom mass murder is only a function of mass) <<you>>.

The Askhenazi rebellion of 1940 was a great injustice done to the Romanian people (the Romanian serfs ware once again driven from their land.While the Jews ware emancipated and enjoyed higher education <<highschool and beyond>>, my grandmother couldn't attend third grade because she had no shoes. Shoes waren't available to all the pesants untill Ceausescu came to power). And this educated elite (just look at the number of important Jews from Bukovina) turns on this mass of slaves and uproots them like some worthless pile of boulders. And doesn't evacuate their vulnerable and innocents to safety? And then come back with a vengence for the innocents they didn't bother to bring with them? Is this normal to you?

Try the following.

Paul Goma (Red Week)
Nicolae Iorga (Why so much hate? and the letters recieved from "The Captain" confirming he was a philo-semite)
The Memoirs of Moshe Carmilly (Cluj Rabbi)

[Cronos Impera]

I understand that there are ambiguities, historical complexities. Which one must bear in mind to understand Romanians are not one-dimensional Draculas feeding on Jewish babies. I want to know what happened in 1940, and how these events are regarded in Romania today.


None of which exonerates guilt. There is no two sides fighting. There is Romania going on a killer spree, and overwhelmingly unarmed Jews being murdered. Some Jews possibly throwing some rocks at some Romanians is not commonly understood a grave enough insult to the pride of the nation to kill 300k to 400k innocents. (Yes, and not 180.000, a number which not even your source for it, Hilberg, arrived at. With the exception of Germany, no other country bears the responsibility for as many Jewish deaths as Romania.)

What was left of Romanian Jewry, dissapeared after WWII. There are barely any Jews left anymore. The etnic cleansing has been complete, and has been carried out before, during and after WWII. Romanian pogroms started in the 19th century. They took on a new level of violence directly following WWI. And saw a level of depravity unheard of in the whole of the history of civilized Europe after the Nazis offered both the template and a historical circumstance.

My link earlier to the Romanian historian Pippidi showed the continuity of Romanian anti-semitic ideology and violence, which makes all endless exploration of any Jewish misconduct in 1940 rather moot. When four KKK members lynch a Black person, does one endlessly explore every possible direct provocation this Black man may possibly have caused on the day of his murder, any funny looks he may have given, or does one understand the murder in light of the existing racism of the KKK members?What's fun, is that French Republicanism historically is the patron of Poland, of Romania, and of continental Jewry. An explosive combination. :beam:

Have you forgotten the fact that my link to the Jewish Romanian homepage cites 300000 deaths.
Have you also forgotten the fact that N.W. Romania (Cluj, Covasna, Harghita, Arad, Oradea) was occupied by Hungary? Are they also in Romania's bill ?

There are no progroms before WW2. In the 19'th century Transylvania was Magyar, Bukovina and Bessarabia ware Austrian/Russian and Dobrudja was Trukish/Bulgarian

There was no hate before 1939, I cite the Nicolae Iorga

[Louis VI the Fat]

So, ladies and gentlemen, regardless of your personal features lets probe into Louis' mind and comprehend his moral system a bit.

I call it Pokemon Ethics. http://www.mypicx.com/thumb/1944108288_11242009_1.jpg

[Cronos Impera]

https://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8914/psyduck.png

Finally a human touch to the dabate :cry:

That was the hardest blow I could recieve in this whole debate. A picture speaks more than a thousand words.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Finally a human touch to the debate :cry:Don't cry. I do try to make a serious effort to understand what happened in Romania in 1940-1944, I try to understand what you think about it. I disagree, but I won't automatically consider you a depraved bloodthirsty count Dracula.
I have some problems with how Romania at large deals with the past, but I also understand Romania had a, shall we say, rough twentieth century. Life, history, is different when stuck between the Ottoman, Soviet and the, although in itself pretty liberal, Austrian/Hungarian empire. It has been easier to live in Canada than to live in Latvia, or Poland, or Romania. I am often trying to remind myself that the East Europeans do have a point when reminding the world of this.


France had a Vichy, it took to 1995 for the French government to accept that Vichy itself, France herself, bore responsibility for what happened. No smugness here. I shall presume you yourself never killed anyone, Jewish or otherwise, on a march to Stalingrad.

Are you familiar with Juergen Habermas? He's a German philosopher. In the eighties he explored how Germany could accept WWII, could accept that it was a German event, and still be proud being German, seek an identity in German history.



To lighten the topic: Whom did you vote for last Sunday? Are you happy with the result so far?

[Louis VI the Fat]

A Da Da Da Cia


King Empereur Conducator Czara

Art is going to sleep for an old world to be born
the anti-philo


sophy of spontaneous yhposoliph

At this moment I hate the man who whispers
before the intermission-eau de cologne-
sour theatre. THE JOYCAMPOUS WIND

If each man says the opposite it is because he is
right

DECONSOLIDATE THE HARVEST OF EX-
ACT CALCULATIONS

pas de ballon :balloon:

above the rules of the
and its control

BEAUTIFUL

It is not for the sawed-off imps
who still worship their navel


Allo. It's me again, Picasso. Ti-am dat *beep*

Sa-ti spun, ce simt acum

[Louis VI the Fat]

Balloon for anyone who can guess what the above is.
Massive balloon for those who can name the relevance to the topic.
Marriage proposal for him/her who gets all of it.

[gaelic cowboy]

The Da Da art movement from before the war yes no

link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada)

I confess I had to look up his name though so I wont spoil it for the rest of you

[Kralizec]

Da Da Cia = reference to dadaism, and possibly Dacia.
That's all I managed on my own. The rest I had to figure out with google.

Post is a parody of Proclamation without Pretention.

conducator = Romanian equivalent of Fuhrer, title used by Antonescu.

Ti-am dat = I gave
Sa-ti spun, ce simt acum = let me tell you, I feel now / let me tell you how I feel?

Relevance to the topic? The author was a Romanian jew with communist sympathies. Otherwise, no idea.