vallum - fortified line

[belliger]

hi all.
will be possible in EBII to build some fortified lines, like the 'vallum adrianii'?
this should make the game more historically accurate.

[Arkhis]

You won't be able to do that, since M2TW doesn't allow it.

[Ionut Alex]

I have another question on that I know that in M2TW archers can put a series of wooden spikes in front of them for protection Are we going to see that in EB2 as well on archer units (or even extend the feature to some infantry units. This could stand as a sort of line fortification and make the game come closer to reality

[Cyclops]

hi all.
will be possible in EBII to build some fortified lines, like the 'vallum adrianii'?
this should make the game more historically accurate.

In Vanilla wonders appeared on the battle maps: I remember my joy the first time I fought the GCS as Maks in Vanilla and saw the temple of Zeus.

If someone wanted to pour a mass of energy then something similar might be possible but they would have to be pre-existing wonders AFAIK because city buildings appear on the seige battle maps only.

At a strategic level did such emplacements serve as a battle line? IIRC the Great Wall and the various anti-Parthian and Roman walls were there to impede easy riding by disruptive non-farming types (I think the Caledonians were semi-nomadic at thast time, hustling their herds around the lochs).

If this was worthy of inclusion in the game as a province building, I suggest that a "civilised" faction might be able to build "limes" or other such emplacements in provinces with the nomad hidden resource that would add a stability bonus. However Roman use of these occured outside the EB timeframe AFAIK, although in an alternate history they might be resorted too earlier if the eagle boys hit the steppes.

I suppose it would be massively expensive and marginally effective. In this scenario it would not appear on the battle map.

[Ludens]

At a strategic level did such emplacements serve as a battle line? IIRC the Great Wall and the various anti-Parthian and Roman walls were there to impede easy riding by disruptive non-farming types (I think the Caledonians were semi-nomadic at thast time, hustling their herds around the lochs).

Yup. A long-distance fence is not going to stop a determined invader, but it will hamper raids. By the time the raiders return the breach will have been noted and all nearby units alarmed, greatly reducing the chance of a successful escape.

The Romans themselves didn't exactly feel inhibited by their limes, either.

[Darius]

So what exactly kept raiders from sailing "around" Hadrians wall, that's something that's always mystified me.

[Iraklis]

well, i havent read about it, but i will have to assume that there where some sort of a warning system such as ship patroling around, i dont think they would spend all that money for a wall and not prepare for ppl sailling around it, or would they? :sweatdrop:

[Ludens]

So what exactly kept raiders from sailing "around" Hadrians wall, that's something that's always mystified me.

The Romans would have patrol ships ready. I don't know whether they had a standing Atlantic/North Sea fleet, but there certainly were several fleet actions against Germanic raiders. The Goidelic raiders were also a pain in later centuries.

Also, I guess the Caledonians would have lacked advanced shipbuilding techniques. The senate at some point forbade the teaching of shipbuilding to barbarians, although IIRC this decree came when Rome had mostly lost control of Britain.

[moonburn]

probably the caledonians weren´t feeling so safe on the sea and therefore weren´t that adventurous when considering the sea option

also remember that raiders are opurtunistic so they go when they see a fair chance but making an extra mile and working is diferent then just riding out to the place scare off the poor pesants and return with enough sheep for the winter while not incurring in any risk

they weren´t politically united so if someone tries to persuade some friends about something he needs carishma and it can´t be "2 complicated" i know i´m a gamer and sometimes it´s hard to persuade 10 people out of a comunity of over 500 to help me out in a totally new game :furious3: , we haven´t evolved so much since then :inquisitive:

and finally the romans probably had some type of navy stationed near by and if we consider that passing by the watchtowers unoticed and do the same on the return wasn´t easy (added risk) and you had the winds and corrents to compute into that also

bottom line is simple they where unorganised and unwilling to take too many risks for a meager reward, they lacked the tactical and strategical skills to pull it out, their own personal religion made them fear the sea , they where too dumb to learn how to sail, take a pick there are always many reasons why people do and don´t do stuff

[antisocialmunky]

The thing about heavy fortifications is that their effectiveness is related to the prosperity of the builders. They work well when manned and supported but become useless when soldiers are not loyal, the ability to man them effectively is lost, the fortifications fall into disrepair, and the ability to coordinate a organized defense and reinforcement is lost.

This is true atleast against peoples without a history of siegecraft. The Great Wall of China itself usually did its job until something silly happened...

[satalexton]

...Which is a little more often than you might think...considering the troops station there are well trained and seasoned by raids.....all it takes is an ambitious general...

[Darius]

Or a particularly drunk section of troops.

[Ibrahim]

I don't know whether they had a standing Atlantic/North Sea fleet, but there certainly were several fleet actions against Germanic raiders. The Goidelic raiders were also a pain in later centuries.

they did. the Saxon shore was protected by a fleet as late as the latest 4th century.

[antisocialmunky]

Or a particularly drunk section of troops.

Or a couple bribes.

[SwissBarbar]

So what exactly kept raiders from sailing "around" Hadrians wall, that's something that's always mystified me.

Me 2. But on the other hand it's an advantage. Instead of not knowing where the hell Invaders could actually invade your country and send your armies after them, you know exactly where the have to go to sail around your wall an you can await them there, well rested and prepared.

[Arkhis]

The Great Wall of China itself usually did its job until something silly happened...

The wall failed all too often, though. Most of it was just a small earthen rampart, and it wasn't untill the Ming (I think) they fully connected all segments of it. Even then, what kept the nomads at bay were mostly bribes and playing tribes out against eachother.

The Wall was manned mostly by part-time warrior/peasants, who worked the land near it.