Trojan Wars

[ShadesWolf]

Who were the guys from troy?

what nation were they?

were they an off shoot of the hittites, or a group in there own right?

[CountArach]

It probably never happened, so it really isn't possible to say. The inhabitants of the historic Troy were likely from the east in some way though.

[Fragony]

It probably never happened, so it really isn't possible to say. The inhabitants of the historic Troy were likely from the east in some way though.

It probably did, there is extensive evidence that the city existed and that it was a well developed town, and there is also evidence that a battle has taken place, various type of arrowheads have been found, many of which were used at sieges. They were probably Luwians by the way, closely related to the Hittites (linguistically, no idea on ethnics don't think that is known)

edit, might as well give some more since there are problems here. There was an defensive ditch, but it was too small for a town that developed, most of the weapons found are arrows while Homerus talks of spears being the main weapons, also, they arrowheads are of different materials, bronze but also bone which suggests several battles in several periods.

But two things remain,

- Troy existed
- A battle has taken place

[G. Septimus]

It probably did, there is extensive evidence that the city existed and that it was a well developed town, and there is also evidence that a battle has taken place, various type of arrowheads have been found, many of which were used at sieges. They were probably Luwians by the way, closely related to the Hittites (linguistically, no idea on ethnics don't think that is known)

edit, might as well give some more since there are problems here. There was an defensive ditch, but it was too small for a town that developed, most of the weapons found are arrows while Homerus talks of spears being the main weapons, also, they arrowheads are of different materials, bronze but also bone which suggests several battles in several periods.

But two things remain,

- Troy existed
- A battle has taken place

Maybe,it did happen,
http://blogs.amctv.com/future-of-classic/Troy101_560x330_C81-4.jpg
the HORSE OF TROY!!!!!!!:2thumbsup:

[CountArach]

- Troy existed
Yep, I would never deny that.

- A battle has taken place
Yes, and I know that as well. The city was burnt to the ground twice, so undoubtedly there were wars. That is hardly surprising given the strategic location of the city along a major trade route, and the wealth this would likely lead to. However, the idea of many Greek proto-poleis unifying behind a few men sounds rather strange to me. A ten year siege would also be almost impossible as it would devastate an entire generation and not allow for re-population of the homelands, in turn leading to many other problems.

So in conclusion - yes, there was at least one war against Troy, and they lost 2 at various points, however the idea that it follows anything even closely resembling the Trojan War is false.

[Fragony]

Yep, I would never deny that.

Yes, and I know that as well. The city was burnt to the ground twice, so undoubtedly there were wars. That is hardly surprising given the strategic location of the city along a major trade route, and the wealth this would likely lead to. However, the idea of many Greek proto-poleis unifying behind a few men sounds rather strange to me. A ten year siege would also be almost impossible as it would devastate an entire generation and not allow for re-population of the homelands, in turn leading to many other problems.

So in conclusion - yes, there was at least one war against Troy, and they lost 2 at various points, however the idea that it follows anything even closely resembling the Trojan War is false.

It's a bit of a black hole, there are many questions, I would seek out the reports of Manfred Korfmann they have dug up quite a bit in the eighties. Just about everything suggests this battle took place, the abundanceloledit arrowheads is no argument since spears were mostly used, and art was taken back to Greece.

A ten year siege would also be almost impossible

edit, that is why the small dimension of the defense grid is so important, there is a lot of uncertanty over the actual size of the city, that is of huge importance here.

[Incongruous]

We do not know whether Ilium existed, we know that at Hisarlik there was a large and properous Bronze age city, which was abadoned in the Ancient Dark Ages, then re-established in the Archaic period. It was, we think the capital of a Kingdom called Wilusa, which accoring to tablets found at Hattusas was at one time allied to the Nesites/Hittites and ruled at that time by a man named Aleksandu. We also know that the Nesites had contact with a people, from across the water, called the Ahhiyawa. All three peoples are believed to be Indo-Europeans. The only reason we believe it to be Troy is because of the Homeric poem and other epic cycles relating to the sack of a city in Asia called Ilium, and very little of that poem can be traced to a truly Bronze Age world.

Now, what is interesting is that we know that the most prosperous phase of the Hisarlik site was destroyed by Earthquake, not military operations. The Trojan Horse is in myth said to be how the Greeks captured the city of Ilium, horses are the animals of Poseidon, god of earthquakes.

There has been recent publications on the thesis that many of the ancient stories of cities being captured and destroyed by man, may in actual facted have been created from the historical destruction of cities by earthquakes.

[Fragony]

The only reason we believe it to be Troy is because of the Homeric poem and other epic cycles relating to the sack of a city in Asia called Ilium, and very little of that poem can be traced to a truly Bronze Age world.


Bronze art can though, and extensive amounts have been found, not so much to indicate the huge town Homer speaks of, but a considerable one at least. Wether or not Troy existed isn't really a debate anymore, it's importance is subject of debate though. Look up Heinrich Schliemann.

Now, what is interesting is that we know that the most prosperous phase of the Hisarlik site was destroyed by Earthquake, not military operations. The Trojan Horse is in myth said to be how the Greeks captured the city of Ilium, horses are the animals of Poseidon, god of earthquakes.

Most think it was a fire nowadays, don't know why that is though.

[Andres]

There exists a very interesting television serie about this; it's out on DVD, " In Search of... the Trojan War", made by Michael Wood. It's from 1985 but still very interesting. I highly recommend it to everyone interested in the subject. 6 episodes of one hour each.

[rajpoot]

I saw this show on the History Channel long back, which pinpointed Troy somewhere on the East of the strait that connects the Black Sea and the Mediterranean.
What it basically said was that the war which might have occurred would have been because the city was in a prime location to sort of 'control' the trade ships going through the strait.

[Incongruous]

Bronze art can though, and extensive amounts have been found, not so much to indicate the huge town Homer speaks of, but a considerable one at least. Wether or not Troy existed isn't really a debate anymore, it's importance is subject of debate though. Look up Heinrich Schliemann.

Now, what is interesting is that we know that the most prosperous phase of the Hisarlik site was destroyed by Earthquake, not military operations. The Trojan Horse is in myth said to be how the Greeks captured the city of Ilium, horses are the animals of Poseidon, god of earthquakes.

Most think it was a fire nowadays, don't know why that is though.

Schliemann was not an archelogist but a adventuring romantic, anything he has to say on the subject should be treated with suspicion.

The most prosperous phase of Troy was TroyVI, which Archeologists agree came to an end due to siesmic activity. It is the smaller and poorer TroyVIIa which seems to have been burnt.

Wilusa was a minor western Luwian kingdom and by 1300 B.C a vassal of Hattusa, does anyone think that the Greeks would have attacked it? The supposed Greek (Ahhiyawa) presence in Anatolia was far to the south at Milawatos, why go all the way to Wilusa? The answer must be in the fact that the city had just succumbed to a massive earthquake and was open to attack, the Myceneans were good raiders, it's logical that they would have taken advantage.

[Fragony]

You are obviously more knowledgable of the subject than I am, towel meet ring